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Author Topic: BiT Research Topic  (Read 291324 times)
Paraxade
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« Reply #315 on: April 13, 2012, 06:10:05 AM »

Turns out the save is unnecessary, just load a file right before the cutscene starts playing (doesn't even have to be saved in Skyloft) and the thunderhead will be open on that file. You just have to queue it behind another cutscene to give you time to select the file before it starts playing. The fastest way to do it is to load the file right at the end of the cutscene that plays every time you do BiT Tongue
« Last Edit: April 13, 2012, 06:15:52 AM by Paraxade » Logged
CloudMax
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« Reply #316 on: April 13, 2012, 07:18:14 AM »

Turns out the save is unnecessary, just load a file right before the cutscene starts playing (doesn't even have to be saved in Skyloft) and the thunderhead will be open on that file. You just have to queue it behind another cutscene to give you time to select the file before it starts playing. The fastest way to do it is to load the file right at the end of the cutscene that plays every time you do BiT Tongue

Yeah, that's the whole point of the glitch.
You have to load a file right before a cutscene starts.
Also, whether or not you've saved before a cutscene gives different effects. (I noticed this 2 days ago when I got the Fi Escort During Day thingy).
For example, if I were to load a file that have saved at a cutscene save prompt before loading at a light column cutscene, I will watch that cutscene on the file that I load.
However, if I were to do it on a file that isn't saved at a cutscene before doing this, I instead end up in skyloft with all the actors from the Fi Escort loaded.

This also explains why kazooie and i didn't find the early light tower and thunderhead. When we were looking for it we thought that the file had to be located at a save prompt for early light tower to work, and you've now proven that that isn't the case. Whether or not you've saved before a cutscene seems to give different results though. (this is important to remember).
It is impossible to pull off what you did if you had saved at a save prompt, because I tried to do what you did, but with a file located at a save prompt instead a few days ago.
I queued the cutscenes by saving outside deepwoods and selecting that file in BiT, and then load another file before the saving was done. This didn't work, because when I selected the file at the save prompt, it clears the cutscene queue in BiT, so it wont trigger after I'm done saving anymore. You can cancel cutscene queues by simply selecting another file that wouldn't trigger them, before they actually trigger.

I still do not believe that it will be possible to get early skykeep and light columns, because they are triggered in quite different ways.
The Skykeep cutscene does not work like the light tower, thunderhead cutscenes, etc., you have to actually insert the stone in the statue and you'll load a new scene. (the screen fades out and the cutscene starts), just like with loading zones.
I do not believe it will be possible to trigger that cutscene for this reason.
The light Columns early seems more likely to be possible without another file, but I still do not think it'll be possible, unless we manage to trigger the tablet insert cutscenes (which I doubt is possible)


Oh, and also, the theory we (kazooie and I) had about loading cutscenes in BiT.
We believe that it is related to cutscenes you've watched in the area where you save at. (or possibly flags. I think this is more likely)
This is why for example when you save in deepwoods for the first time, you won't trigger any cutscenes in BiT.
If you activate the Switch outside of Skyview then save in deepwoods, you will trigger a cutscene.

Same goes for Earth Temple. If you save there before opening the temple entrance you won't trigger a cutscene.
If you collect all keys and open it, you will trigger one.

And the list continues. Saving outside of Fire Sanctuary seems to be the most promising one we've found so far, since that one has multiple flags that is set (if it is flags that is used) for each fire you remove, and opening the temple, and entering the temple.

So it is related to cutscenes/flags/something in the area that you saved in. We also discussed that it could have to do with skippable cutscenes only. Like for example, moving a log in deepwoods wont have an effects on the cutscenes that play, but having watched different cutscenes that is possible to skip in hero mode will.

With some testing we should be able to determine which one it is.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2012, 07:25:52 AM by CloudMax » Logged

Paraxade
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« Reply #317 on: April 13, 2012, 07:32:01 AM »

Here's the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5Z1XAMcB8E
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Hornlitz
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« Reply #318 on: April 13, 2012, 11:07:57 PM »

Alright, this has probably been seen, and said before here, I just haven't seen anything about it.
After you execute a BiT, and you save and load the file, if you reset and open the file up again, you'll be back in Skyloft. I thought that this might be faster than going to a statue and flying back. Just a thought.
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Paraxade
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« Reply #319 on: April 13, 2012, 11:25:18 PM »

Hornlitz: Very old, that should be on the site too. Just load the file shortly after saving rather than doing both at the same time.

Anyway, how do you trigger the thunderhead cutscene with the Earth Temple? I was going to time which was faster but it's not working for me. Tried it before ET, after opening the door, at the save prompt after finishing the dungeon, and manually saved after finishing the dungeon... nothing on any of those.
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CloudMax
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« Reply #320 on: April 14, 2012, 08:37:34 AM »

Hornlitz: Very old, that should be on the site too. Just load the file shortly after saving rather than doing both at the same time.

Anyway, how do you trigger the thunderhead cutscene with the Earth Temple? I was going to time which was faster but it's not working for me. Tried it before ET, after opening the door, at the save prompt after finishing the dungeon, and manually saved after finishing the dungeon... nothing on any of those.

Well, blame kazooie and me for that then. We said that it happened if you do it after entering the temple.. but it could obviously be related to some trigger way further into the game, like for example the bokoblin base... I never actually tried to do it at earth temple directly after entering it, so I just assumed that that was the case when Kazooie told me so. >_<'

Alright, this has probably been seen, and said before here, I just haven't seen anything about it.
After you execute a BiT, and you save and load the file, if you reset and open the file up again, you'll be back in Skyloft. I thought that this might be faster than going to a statue and flying back. Just a thought.

http://zeldaspeedruns.com/ss/BiT/back-in-time-save-bitsave

You actually perform a BiTSave when you BiTWarp because BiTSave is just when you load the file before it has finished saving, so that not all information has been saved yet.


________

Edit1:
Load a file and start the title screen cutscene:
Start BiT
BiTSave over a file (you save so that you have a respawn location set)
Kill yourself
Continue and load at the same time

You will load the file and get stuck in the cutscene that plays at the title screen. (it looks at the sky above skyloft)
_________

You can do the trick that allows you to play on a file and save while the file still says "Hero Mode" and causes the intro cutscene to run without using BiT at all with the use of http://zeldaspeedruns.com/ss/misc/opening-empty-files. It is extremely simple.
It only works with hero mode though since the game will crash if you try to load a new adventure file.

And this glitch REALLY need a name.. Some people call it NG+.... But that doesn't make any sense because we call hero mode files ng+ as well...
_________

A new way to overwrite files in BiT:
Everything except for the playtime is overwritten (which means that by doing this, it's possible to set your 100% files playtime to 0 minutes.)
1. Have the file you want copy in slot 3.
2. Select the file that you want to overwrite.
3. Die. (A respawn location must be set, and you can't use BiT skyloft. (using BiT skyloft would trigger the title screen cutscene. I enter the goddess statue and kill myself there)
4. Continue and load the file at the same time.
5. Mash A as fast as you can to open up the File Selection.
You will now load the file you selected in step 2, but because you opened the file selection in step 5 the game loaded all the data from file 3 instead.
6. Save.
Even though it loaded all the data from file 3, you DID open the file that you selected in step 2, so when you save, you'll save over that slot instead.
You'll keep the playtime that you had before overwriting the file.

You can copy new hero mode files this way (just place a new hero mode file in slot 3). This works like the glitch I mentioned above where you can save your progress, but the file will still say "Hero Mode" in the selection, and it will trigger the intro cutscene, so this is not a good way to copy hero mode files. The file wont be "clean" anymore.

This is useless, but it is something.

I also tried a variation of the overwrite glitch mentioned above.
In the step where you mash A to open the file select, hold the control stick down so that you'll enter the loading zone to exit the goddess statue.
You'll get the same result except that you spawn in skyloft instead.
What's even more interesting is that when you quit the game now (save & quit or die & quit), you will return to the title screen. you won't return to the file select. So no file will be selected.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2012, 04:00:01 PM by CloudMax » Logged

TheOthin
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« Reply #321 on: April 14, 2012, 06:23:41 PM »

So it's not possible to use it to get a Hero Mode file that starts at 0:00 to allow the ingame clock to be accurate?

I guess with all the messing around with files, it wouldn't really be accurate anyway, though.
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Kazooie
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« Reply #322 on: April 14, 2012, 06:34:44 PM »

Hornlitz: Very old, that should be on the site too. Just load the file shortly after saving rather than doing both at the same time.

Anyway, how do you trigger the thunderhead cutscene with the Earth Temple? I was going to time which was faster but it's not working for me. Tried it before ET, after opening the door, at the save prompt after finishing the dungeon, and manually saved after finishing the dungeon... nothing on any of those.

That save statue before earth temple tiggered thunderhead opening cutscene when I tested it. If I remember correctly. Before opening door to temple and having completed key thunderhead cutscene came when I rolled tree what drops blue rupee or pushing box. And after opening door to earth temple. Batreaux door opening and thunderhead cutscene both started from to rolling to the tree. You can't trigger that cutscene with save staute in BiT.

Hope this helps Smiley
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CloudMax
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« Reply #323 on: April 14, 2012, 06:58:31 PM »

So it's not possible to use it to get a Hero Mode file that starts at 0:00 to allow the ingame clock to be accurate?

I guess with all the messing around with files, it wouldn't really be accurate anyway, though.

Nope, sadly it isn't.
Well, I guess it would be possible to reach a save statue in the game without actually changing anything at all on the save so it would be like a unused file (except that the file now have a set respawn location, which does make a difference during BiT), but the time it takes to reach the statue would be counted in the playtime so it would say 0:00, but it would be more like half a minute...
So no, this isn't useable to get a accurate ingame clock.
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TestRunner
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« Reply #324 on: April 15, 2012, 01:22:47 AM »

You can do the trick that allows you to play on a file and save while the file still says "Hero Mode" and causes the intro cutscene to run without using BiT at all with the use of http://zeldaspeedruns.com/ss/misc/opening-empty-files. It is extremely simple.
It only works with hero mode though since the game will crash if you try to load a new adventure file.

And this glitch REALLY need a name.. Some people call it NG+.... But that doesn't make any sense because we call hero mode files ng+ as well...

It's called Duped New Files. http://zeldaspeedruns.com/ss/BiT/back-in-time-files. Let's not confuse it with NG+, which is referred to using BitLoading. And people, don't call Hero mode NG+, it's just Hero mode. >_>

Also, Parax: THANK YOU!!! Someone finally found a way! This proves that as long as we can find a way to start the CS early, we can load it on the file. Not really sure if early SK or light pillars are possible though, but I'll keep my fingers crossed since those would cut off a huge amount of time.
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Abahbob
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« Reply #325 on: April 15, 2012, 05:11:42 AM »

Dammit. 2 days off. Thats all I take off. Guys, great work. This is such a huge step. I may get back into SS because of how much I hate imp and scrapper. Any known side-effects of A: Skipping windmill/imp stuff, and B: Farores Courage early? I understand that Courage is out of the way and believed to be worthless, but I think it may change some cutscene triggers or something.
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Swiffy
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« Reply #326 on: April 15, 2012, 10:25:09 AM »

I started a new file last night using pretty much all the known skips now.

Sailcloth skip
Early light tower
Early Lake Floria
Countless bit warps

So on and so forth. I activated the light tower as Parax did, and got the song before heading to the desert the first time. I cleared the second silent realm before I stopped and haven't run into anything unusual yet.
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CloudMax
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« Reply #327 on: April 15, 2012, 11:40:49 AM »

It's called Duped New Files. http://zeldaspeedruns.com/ss/BiT/back-in-time-files. Let's not confuse it with NG+, which is referred to using BitLoading. And people, don't call Hero mode NG+, it's just Hero mode. >_>

Also, Parax: THANK YOU!!! Someone finally found a way! This proves that as long as we can find a way to start the CS early, we can load it on the file. Not really sure if early SK or light pillars are possible though, but I'll keep my fingers crossed since those would cut off a huge amount of time.

Calling it duped new file is just weird, since doing it with the select new file glitch doesn't have anything to do with copying/duping.
And yes, I myself call BiTLoading NG+, but there IS people who call the "duped new file" glitch NG+. No one ever says "duped new file" when talking about it in the IRC, ever.
And yes, Hero Mode should just be called Hero Mode (not NG+ like some people say. They argue that hero mode is ng+ and not bitloading because you keep treasures in hero mode...)

This is why I brought it up. People call everything different things, which is extremely confusing. and it will become even more confusing if we call a glitch "duped new file" when it has nothing at all to do with duping. :/
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TheOthin
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« Reply #328 on: April 15, 2012, 01:26:56 PM »

Trying to define NG+ in Skyward Sword just seems ridiculous. I mean, let's say someone was planning on playing on Normal Mode for some reason. They'd obviously use skip.dat to skip the cutscenes, but that would still entail keeping data that wasn't included in the playthrough in order to get skip.dat activated in the first place. So the only thing that would be considered not some degree of NG+ is Normal Mode with cutscenes, which is just idiotic. I question if there would be any merit to so much as having a Normal Mode category at all, and certainly not one with cutscenes.
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TestRunner
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« Reply #329 on: April 15, 2012, 02:21:48 PM »

While dupe can mean to "duplicate", I was referring to "fool". I call it duped files since you trick the game (or other players) into thinking it's a fresh file when it obviously isn't.

I started a new file last night using pretty much all the known skips now.

Sailcloth skip
Early light tower
Early Lake Floria
Countless bit warps

So on and so forth. I activated the light tower as Parax did, and got the song before heading to the desert the first time. I cleared the second silent realm before I stopped and haven't run into anything unusual yet.


Uhhh. Dumb question: do you mean you played up to the second silent realm, or that you somehow did trials early? Let us know if this indeed works. Hopefully we don't get screwed by scrapper when delivering the water or soup.
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