Majora's Mask 3D: Speedrunning Discussion | Research & Discovery | Ask Questions

[demolition14]

I found a way to go out of bounds to fake south CT from east CT. You have to get onto the straw roof using the deku flower and long jump onto the purple crown on the chest minigame place. You have to be Zora and you have to jumpslash onto the house. From there sidehop right 4 times and jumpslash 2 times. I would show an image, but I don't have anything to show it with

[reidenlightman]

As for my thoughts about how to handle leaderboards, this I think is a bit of a tricky question, as technically n3DS does nothing more than let the game go to the 3DS home menu faster, which doesn't really mean it's faster from a gameplay perspective compared to say iQue with less lag or Wii VC due to emulation. If we're going to split it for that, might as well split by Digital and Cart copies and SD card Class speeds, which also affect home menu speeds... It's a really controversial subject, but hopefully it doesn't take long to come up with a resolution. The last thing I want is this games community to die due to this whole thing, it's better we discuss it now rather than later.

I really don't think a debate is needed. This point of speedrunning the game is to beat it as fast as possible. That's what a speedrun is. If you can buy a 10 dollar (Micro)SD card and/or get a digital copy of the game, then what's the harm? You're not bothering other runners who are using whatever methods they use to make it faster. Hell, I switched to French and did a few practice runs just because I thought French could save me 5 seconds in a run. Also, digital copies save in about 1/3 of the time, saving 2 seconds for each save and quit (6 seconds in all). So five seconds from a language change and 6 seconds in Saves, that's about an 11 second difference. And there aren't any run pairs that come close to only being 11 seconds apart, much less where both runs use different languages and only one of them is digital. And the n3DS doesn't return to the home menu that much faster, but it is more consistent and going between home menu and resuming and using the same amount of time to do so. It makes buffering more consistent, but it doesn't make a run 10-11 seconds faster. 1-2 seconds overall maybe.

The point is, the slowest possible setup (English, physical copy, 3DS) vs the fastest possible setup (Japanese, Digital on fast SD card, n3DS) only has a time difference of about 15-20 seconds overall given both have optimal execution. If you want to split categories based on that, you'll have to split categories based on who uses Goron boost to get to Great Bay early and who uses a bomb jump w/ jump slash to get to great bay early since one is potentially 15 seconds faster than another, but some of us just choose to do Goron Boost instead.

The debate here is really if one person used the slowest possible setup and another used the fastest, but the slower person was only a second off from the other guy's time, then who had better execution? That just means the slower person has the opportunity and potential to have a faster run, but chooses not to gain every advantage even if it costs 0 dollars. So why put marathon runners in different categories based on who wears Nikes with Dr. Schools foot inserts and who wears Addidas without socks?

[benstephens1000]

When it comes to discussions such as leaderboards and rules for speedruns, I always like to use the decisions other communities use as a basis. In this case, my mind is drawn to Skyward Sword. Many runners are able to save a very significant amount of time in loading on the newer black wii model. They do not splits the times or convert or anything at all. Honestly, doing that just adds extra confusion that simply is not necessary.

[reidenlightman]

I found a way to go out of bounds to fake south CT from east CT. You have to get onto the straw roof using the deku flower and long jump onto the purple crown on the chest minigame place. You have to be Zora and you have to jumpslash onto the house. From there sidehop right 4 times and jumpslash 2 times. I would show an image, but I don't have anything to show it with

I've documented this. I gave you credit in the description. I'm trying to play around in there, see if anything interesting can come of it. As far as I can tell, it's useless. Entertaining to do though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmT930TGNTE

Demolition's OoB with the ranch. Definitely useless.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sh1iOR4Q3kY

[demolition14]

I found another OOB but it is useless. In Romani Ranch  after the cows  have been abducted you can zora gainer onto the small room attached to the building where all cows once were and you will pop up. after that you can do a zora backflip onto the non existent roof and either fall into the loading zone or a void.

[benstephens1000]

Apparently having the extra circle pad is what causes the extra lag that makes one frame buffers so easy! This means with a circle pad pro, it is possible on a vanilla 3DS!!

[Madmonk12345]

Apparently having the extra circle pad is what causes the extra lag that makes one frame buffers so easy! This means with a circle pad pro, it is possible on a vanilla 3DS!!

LOL.

That is simultaeneously the greatest and dumbest find ever.

So glad you found this. Everybody was dragging their feet on this trick, and now people won't have to learn some rediculous one frame variant of this trick.

[weckar]

I understand from some other 3DS game communities that 'jiggling' the 3D on the N3DS also causes significant useful lag frames. I don't see a difference myself (although having to do ANOTHER button may be a factor here for me) but can someone more proficient in tricks confirm/deny this for MM3D?

[benstephens1000]

https://youtu.be/PRk-QU6ZXgc

I'll upload a lot more things that we can do with this tonight. I've already thought of about 4 or 5 things that could be really useful if we didn't already have faster ways to skip them

[reidenlightman]

https://youtu.be/PRk-QU6ZXgc

I'll upload a lot more things that we can do with this tonight. I've already thought of about 4 or 5 things that could be really useful if we didn't already have faster ways to skip them

Major(a) props to Ben for taking this trick from being a pain in everyone's ass to a slight migraine inducing obstacle.

[Madmonk12345]

Major(a) props to Ben for taking this trick from being a pain in everyone's ass to a slight migraine inducing obstacle.

Not if I can help it, it seems. Though it may now be easier due to the CPP working, you guys are probably going to have to learn this at some point, and it's faster anyways.

Behold the return of the two buffer mask jump.

It's possible to gain height with mask jumps, but the time lost to buffering home is too costly to do so with the five buffer CMJ, requiring the two-buffer CMJ.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xreG0BDm7vw

To do it this way, for the input between inventory and the next buffer, on leaving the inventory screen press bottle as soon as the input will allow and press home + b simultaneously 1-3 frames after bottle, with 2 frames being ideal buffering. One frame requires an extra buffer to make it to the proper window and occasionally doesn't work for some reason, and three doesn't take you up as quickly. for frame 1, link will have large fins as he takes out the bottle, frame 2 will have link on the second frame of pulling out the bottle, which looks identical to the first frame of the jump slash, and frame 3 has Link in neutral behavior. 2-3 behave the same for buffers. The reason the two buffer method works is that home takes an additional frame to exit, skipping the two buffers waiting for the jump slash to start and placing the game in the proper state.

Also, simultaneous input of home + b is going to vary system by system because 3DS and N3DS have different levels of pressure required for home buttons IIRC. To figure out what it'll mean for your system, find which level of pressure on each button causes a mask jump if you buffer a physical button transformation mask input. figuring out how to do that consistently after hitting other buttons is the only hard part of the trick, and if you can do that the rest falls into place.

Two buffer CMJs can be done consistently. I'm getting chains of 10-15 mask jumps with it; it's just not a very easy trick to record because home + b is so finicky that the way you hold the device actually influences the result of the input. There's a reason every single video I've recorded of the trick has the N3DS held at an angle.

If we were able to get this working, STT BK skip might be doable, and I'm pretty sure there are some spots in there where hovering saves a substantial amount of time going over a specific sun block IIRC. This variant needs more testing to see what can be done with it. However, this trick can't make Goron skip possible because the trick isn't possible without the Goron mask anyways as you won't have a mask to switch to that works for transformation storage.

[reidenlightman]

Not if I can help it, it seems. Though it may now be easier due to the CPP working, you guys are probably going to have to learn this at some point, and it's faster anyways.

Behold the return of the two buffer mask jump.

It's possible to gain height with mask jumps, but the time lost to buffering home is too costly to do so with the five buffer CMJ, requiring the two-buffer CMJ.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xreG0BDm7vw

To do it this way, for the input between inventory and the next buffer, on leaving the inventory screen press bottle as soon as the input will allow and press home + b simultaneously 1-3 frames after bottle, with 2 frames being ideal buffering. One frame requires an extra buffer to make it to the proper window and occasionally doesn't work for some reason, and three doesn't take you up as quickly. for frame 1, link will have large fins as he takes out the bottle, frame 2 will have link on the second frame of pulling out the bottle, which looks identical to the first frame of the jump slash, and frame 3 has Link in neutral behavior. 2-3 behave the same for buffers. The reason the two buffer method works is that home takes an additional frame to exit, skipping the two buffers waiting for the jump slash to start and placing the game in the proper state.

Also, simultaneous input of home + b is going to vary system by system because 3DS and N3DS have different levels of pressure required for home buttons IIRC. To figure out what it'll mean for your system, find which level of pressure on each button causes a mask jump if you buffer a physical button transformation mask input. figuring out how to do that consistently after hitting other buttons is the only hard part of the trick, and if you can do that the rest falls into place.

Two buffer CMJs can be done consistently. I'm getting chains of 10-15 mask jumps with it; it's just not a very easy trick to record because home + b is so finicky that the way you hold the device actually influences the result of the input. There's a reason every single video I've recorded of the trick has the N3DS held at an angle.

If we were able to get this working, STT BK skip might be doable, and I'm pretty sure there are some spots in there where hovering saves a substantial amount of time going over a specific sun block IIRC. This variant needs more testing to see what can be done with it. However, this trick can't make Goron skip possible because the trick isn't possible without the Goron mask anyways as you won't have a mask to switch to that works for transformation storage.

Aaand... this turns out to be a pain in the ass to do.

[Madmonk12345]

I take back that Goron skip impossibility. It's going to make the trick even harder though. Yay.

If we do the trick as regular Link, then we have two masks to switch. If it's possible to gain height as regular link then goron skip will happen. I'm going to look for an alternate method for regular link. This'll mean the trick has even higher stakes though. Regular link crashes at any height with any jump slash unless there's some alternate animation later on.

Not having Goron mask won't make new milk bar clip impossible with ZL though. because we can fall so much during the trick we should have time to put the deku mask back. There might be some way for me to get the mask back on in time with a separate pause and still gain height. It's probably going to involve touching the touch screen while doing the trick again though.

[Masterluigisw]

We need goron mask for Gibdo BA.

Also someone should mess around STT BKS... I'm sure there's a way with bomb boost, mask jumps, recoil flips or jumpslash recoil.

[Madmonk12345]

We need goron mask for Gibdo BA.

Also someone should mess around STT BKS... I'm sure there's a way with bomb boost, mask jumps, recoil flips or jumpslash recoil.

Not with arbitrary height gain we don't, at least in theory anyways. You can start up consecutive mask jumps from a side hop, so you should be able to make it over anything anywhere. Not necessarily quickly, granted; going over the fences that way sounds arduous given how slow the rise on CMJs are.

Definitely need to test STT BKS though. We have anything that we could possibly need.

Now, if only there was some way to make that Astral Observatory WW to Inverted Stone Tower not crash...