ZSR Forums

thoughts on this subject?

pros:
- pj64 is inaccurate (graphical bugs, different lag amounts, game crashes etc)
- pj64 requires special rules in place to avoid it overtaking legit versions (for example banning the 1.0 rom but not the 1.2 rom)
- pj64 1.6/1.7 run at ~60.00 fps instead of ~59.94 fps. I compared a timelapse of hyrule field and PJ64 is faster here than VC, but only slightly
- more people switching to running on official releases
- don't have to deal with the clusterfuck of custom emulator settings/plugins affecting run time
- cheating via memory watching is no longer possible (without a lot of expensive hardware at least)

cons:
- removing old times
- a lot of new runners use pj64, this may discourage them
- people from europe might feel screwed with only having their PAL copies

---------------

Nothing is actually planned here, just discussing this topic. I only ask that you do so in a civil manner.
What are your thoughts?

I don't think PJ64 should be banned, though I would actually be in favor of banning PJ64 1.7 in favor of PJ64 1.6(.1), as it would make enforcing settings compliance and whatnot a lot simpler. Also I think there should be a rule that at the end of a run an emulator player should show their entire emulator window and settings as supporting proof.

Regarding the arguments for banning it:

1. Exactly the same could be said for VC/GC, so banning PJ64 for this reason alone does not seem right to me.
2. The rules are simple enough at the moment; I don't see any problem with maintaining them.
3. Valid point I think, but the difference seems like it would be negligible. Also PJ64 1.6(.1) which I suggested above runs slower and has slower pauses than 1.7 from my tests (which is why I never used 1.7 btw).
4. I think the question of whether or not PJ64 should be banned should be answered based on the merits of the emulator, not on how many people use it.
5. Could be made a lot easier by what I suggested above.
6. I don't see this being either very useful or commonplace, but it is still a concern, yeah.

Might post more stuff later but I gotta go to class Kappa b

I am for a ban and here's some of my thoughts on this:
-There might be an initial "uproar" but it would settle pretty soon once people realize nothing is stopping them from still running and comparing their times to what's on the leaderboards, just not having their times on there.
-Speedrunning is a cheap hobby, comparatively speaking. So if someone has played long enough to be good enough to compete with top times I feel like shelling out a bit of money wouldn't kill them (shoot, buying a wii these days is about as much as a retail game).
-It would standardize the competition more, allowing better direct comparison of times (1 less platform to worry about).
-If a more accurate emulator is eventually developed then it could always be added back later (maybe if cen64 ever gets somewhere).

I may write more later when I think of more things to add.

Banning emu won't necessarily have more people switching to running on official releases, if anything it will just drive more people away from zsr. This is especially true for people using PAL, since it's almost guaranteed that they will never beat their JP emu times. Then should they retime their runs or run against JP split? Euro players will be forced to softmod wiis or import systems in order to keep playing on a competitive level. Same with North American players, english looses quite a bit of time to JP (almost 40 seconds in the intro + saria alone). Same deal, homebrew wii. Not only that, some people will also have to buy a TV, adding quite a bit to the ~100$ for a wii + cap card. Most runners are hogh school / college students that need to spend the money elsewhere.

As for the graphical bugs and game crashes, thats a problem that they will have to face, and it sucks for them. There are quite a few places that crash on emu (kak shop as adult, forest trial, etc.) but thats just something that emu players will have to face because of their choices to run on emulator. That would be like complaining about the augmented lag on N64. Better have a game crash then no run at all.

Then there's the legitimacy issue. There are actually quite a few people that still get mad at people for downloading a 16 year old game for some reason, but that would be the same case with VC WADs. If you're going for legitimate releases, should downloading a ripped copy from the internet that is actually quite easy to tamper with also be banned?

On the other hand, emus are inaccurate, they most likely always will be. even if we specify what graphic plugin, sound plugin, input plugin, controller to use, ROM to use, etc. they always will have an advantage of some sorts, much like VC has an advantage over N64. Seeing as PJ64 is not an official release, unlike VC, it gains an unfair advantage through a mean not intended by the devs (cause developer intended is a thing, right?) that uses different resources possible not accessible by the systems.

There's a reason SDA bans emulators. It's no secret to anyone. Allowing emulators does reflect the community poorly, seeing as how many runs are illegitimate. Then what is more important? Being inclusive of everyone or having legitimate runs? Looking at the any% leaderboards there are 274 emu runs and 504 total runs. More then half of the any% runs are on emu. By banning emu, you're not only cutting out new players, your cutting out some big runners as well. Makaron, Tixl, TB, Poodle (still waiting for the return), Ada, etc.

But would banning emu be as bad as people make it seem? To put it bluntly, when was the last time an emu runner had a WR? (not counting times where some big skip was found that saves a few mins)
In most cases, emulator players just won't be as competitive then people that spent hard earned money into this hobby. Just because an emu run won't show up on the leaderboards doesn't mean that you can't compare your best run to the WR, doesn't mean that you're not allowed to use the resources on ZSR, nor does it ban you from posting on the forums. The only downside is that (suprise suprise) emu runs won't be featured. If that seems unfair, then having a game crash in forest trial and losing the run is also unfair. It's just something that will have to be dealt with. This will give the oot (and mm. please ban emus for mm they are shit) LBs a cleaner look. People will still be able to use emus in SRL races, and nothing is stopping the creation of a google doc for emu runs (much like JBop's OoT WR doc).

All of this is besides the point anyways because you should be comparing yourself to your times and your times alone. If you so happen to be the fastest runner, fantastic.

tl;dr ban emus

As I have stated and explained in several tweets to you, I don't agree with banning PJ64 entirely from leaderboards, that is all.

In my short time as an editor so far, I have noticed many emulator runs that ran at a significantly faster speed (as comparable to virtual console what most people play on) and/or ran on different settings (intentionally or not) that provided an advantage. Banning emulator would clear up any current and potential issues. The issue then becomes of what to do with the current runs on the leaderboards when these rules were not in place. In my opinion, they should then be removed.

This is silly. Of course not.... Half the competition is on emulator. I think part of this reason may actually be because it's the simplest way to get the Japanese version. We seem to have this mentality that if you're playing on English, you might as well not be running at all because nobody takes your time seriously. I hate the fact that this is a thing, which is part of the reason I'm in favor of separating regions, but that's a different debate.

Anyway, I think a lot of people might HAVE the official game, but no way to stream/record it, or only have the English version, or only have PAL, and because of these reasons, emulator is by far their best option. I don't want to discourage runners who already feel that speedrunning is hardly in their league and are on the fence about trying. If we increase the barrier to entry, we are making that problem worse.

It makes me happy to see new runners on the leaderboards when I'm verifying runs or whatever, because I see some kid who is really ambitious and just wants to be like the best players, and maybe they slowly get better and better, and it's really inspiring even if they have a really bad PB or something. These are the types of people that play on emulator because they feel like they have no other option.

I had an idea awhile back about having it set up so that any run can be submitted, but only official releases can be verified or something. Or maybe you can't go beyond a certain rank if you're on emulator or something. I don't really have a good idea for this, but just a thought.

EDIT:
It seems like the more competitive-minded folks who are thinking in terms of high level runners and world records are generally more in favor of banning emulators. This is because at this level, even a variance of 00.06 FPS can make a difference and seems to give an unfair advantage. Of course this isn't considering the low-tier runners and newcomers, and the consequences for them. The "get the better/official version" argument also fits here. It's turning accessibility into a competition as well.

Personally, I don't think of the leaderboards as just a competition tracker. It's also a way for people to have something to show for their progress. Sure emu runners could compare their times even without submitting to the leaderboards, but part of the reason Ocarina of Time is as competitive as it is that the leaderboards are welcoming and even out the gaps between skill levels. If there were no leaderboards, there would be a lot less competition, regardless of emulator runs. If you can't submit your 32 minute any% run, you would probably feel like you have nothing to show for it if you have no audience or support or hype. For that reason, submitting to the leaderboards has value even if you aren't a great runner.

Maybe when you get to the top 10 or so, the competition becomes more meaningful and these sorts of things need to be addressed more, but overall, there is very little to complain about the current rules without nitpicking.

My view on emulator is, and pretty much has been, that is should be banned. PJ64 runs faster than the console it is trying to emulate, which is pretty much a reason to ban it right there, among all of the other things mentioned in this thread. Another option might be EMU leaderboards, but not to see them as official runs, for those who do not have console. They can still compete, just not have any official WR. If a player is good enough, and actually wants the WR, he (or she) will actually buy the console to play on if they care. Just my 2 cents on this.

I just noticed that MHS has a feature called Speed Hack.

If sync game to audio isn't set in PJ64, you can set up Speed Hack so that PJ64, and probably any emulator executes faster.

IMO if you're going to ban some emulators (everything except PJ64), and some roms (except 1.2), then you might as well ban all emulators. Yes, it prevents people from having listed times, but it doesn't stop people from running and comparing against their own times.

Or instead of completely banning the emulator, you could have the emulator runs in a separate list and have a note saying that emulator is faster/controversial. Actually, maybe allow the runs to be submitted and appear on profile pages, but don't have them appear on the leaderboards unless the filter is set to emulator. This is very similar to what the Paper Mario community has agreed on.

It's not an official Nintendo release and doesn't play like one, and therefore should not be endorsed by ZSR. Nothing is stopping a new runner from speedrunning on an emulator, racing on SRL with an emulator, or creating separate leaderboards (which I believe has already happened?) for emulators. If you're serious enough about running the game and getting a good time to the point where you're investing a lot of your time to get good, investing a relatively small amount of money for an acceptable version is a natural progression.

I'm at a point where I'm ready to throw my arms in the air and say fine! ban emulator! It doesn't really affect me anyway.

It's just really disappointing to see the community so ready to sacrifice competition over something so relatively petty. Yes, people can still RUN on emulator, but I can guarantee it will be extremely demotivating to newcomers if they don't have that submission option, and this topic only becomes controversial at a high skill level.

I know this thread is just for discussing, but now that it's been brought up again, people are talking like a final decision is about to be made.

One of my biggest problems with emu is that because it's slower than VC, people start speculating about how much slower it is. I remember a time when someone who was playing on emulator was pissing on the WR on VC and he said he had a disadvantage of about 5 minutes on emu.  ::)

It'd be so damn good if everyone switched to one version of the game, but it's too late for that. :P I mean half of the discussion is about which version someone is playing, instead of the skill involved.

I think the verification is also encouraging for new players. On the other hand, it might also encourage them to get an official release, so their runs can be verified. I was actually also thinking about making people unable to go beyond a certain rank, but that's also kind of silly.

Maybe it would be an idea if ZSR provides an emulator. This could then just be PJ64 1.6/1.7 with the right settings. This emulator then has to be used from now on. Perhaps we can also modify it, to hardcode the settings or something. Obviously people can then still trick you, but at least it would make things more uniform.

This is pretty much my whole view over speed running games seriously, not just as a hobby you do for fun..but as something you actually work on.
I see emulators as a great way to practice tricks and to discover new ways to speed run games. It's useful when you try to find the right angles with the all the tools avalaible on the emulator for instance.
It's also the easiest alternative to get yourself started in that huge world that is speed running games.
People have access to all games.. in all language… this

Altho, I truly believe that official speed runs to compete for official times in the ranking should be done on a official version. But since there's already filters to sort runs on emulation out (I think?).. it's fair enough to leave emulation runs there so people can still compare their times on the ranking.

This would be an interesting idea actually. The whole purpose of ZSR as a site is to help new people get into speedrunning Zelda games; that's why we have pages about different tricks and a leaderboard that doesn't require you to post a video to submit a run. It might also be helpful to provide an emulator, since we want the barrier to entry as low as possible.

as long as the emulators and roms chosen by ZSR are standardised and available to download on the website without too much trouble - it's pretty legit.

If people weren't using emulators for several years now, then maybe.

Myself being a new runner (that still hasn't done a run) I wouldn't say ban them from leaderboards, just keep them as their own category. I do agree that there's a bit too much variability in emulators to be able to group them with regular consoles, but there are reasons good enough to keep them valid for runs. Besides, most crappy to decent PC builds nowadays shouldn't really have any issues running PJ64, so I don't know about that either.

It's also becoming more and more difficult nowadays to come across an N64 or an iQue without buying them online for a pretty penny (S+H may or may not be included), so emulators especially help out people that can't actually afford that kind of stuff. And as jbop + others have said, VC also falls under the emulator category, even if it's a Nintendo-built one.

Also, how was the dip?

I don't think banning emulator is a good idea. As far as I know, emulator is slower for every category and has no real advantages. The fact that it runs at 60 instead of 59.94 seems more than offset by the long loading zone times (1.5-2 seconds longer than vc). Many people prefer playing on emulator because they like the ability to use a different controller. Obviously it should continue being banned to play on 1.0 for 100% runs on emulator (in fact, you could just make emulators for all categories run on version 1.2 to make it more similar to VC, which would be a good idea in my opinion). Force everybody to use default settings on pj64 1.6/1.7 and remove their run if there is evidence of them using custom settings. Also, many people run on emulator and will be discouraged if it's banned, as you said. I don't think it is an issue for these reasons.

I'm for banning emus (innacurate ones, at least). If you aren't willing to fork out the cash to enjoy your hobby, find a different hobby. :) ;) :D ;D >:( :( :o 8) ??? ::) :P :-[ :-X :-\ :-* :'(

I agree with banning all emulators, until there's one that isn't absolute garbage. That includes wii vc. When the day comes that we have a reasonably accurate n64 emulator, i think it would be fine to accept it, but none of the current n64 emulators are any good at all.

people in top 10% of categories should be required to play on console imo. emu isnt consistent. look at the intro of tokyoboi's any% run. its like 2 seconds faster than other runs both on VC and emu.



also fuck keeta

ban that shit

Nothing is stopping people from running on emulator if they can't submit it to the leaderboards. If the lack of the option deters potential people from speedrunning the game because they can't submit their 25:31 any% time on emulator then so be it. I think almost everyone agrees that at the highest level of play that official versions should be required.　The goal of a leaderboard shouldn't be to include everyone and their brother who picks up a controller (and playing a game they don't even own).

It's pretty obvious if someone is cheating on n64 or vc, but there's always small things that can be changed in emulator that people won't necessarily notice. Leaderboards should move toward standardization.

It seems like people underestimate how easy it would be to cheat on console; it's something you're always going to have to deal with.


I think this is a good idea. It's kinda what I was suggesting with PJ64 1.6 since there are fewer settings to change.

ZSR is supposed to be a site to help new people get into speedrunning zelda, whether they are serious or not. That's the reason the site has pages of information all about it.

This attitude directly contradicts that.


This is a nice idea as well.

1. same for VC/Gamecube though but no one seems to care
2. rules like this shouldn't exist anyway
3. idk
4. imo 'official' shouldn't matter as much as playing on original hardware - vc is just another inaccurate n64 emu like pj64
5. comparable to people using wad injects to save on reset times (yes it happens)
6. cheating is very much possible and easy on any platform except iQue (maybe) right now

Honestly, I don't think emulators should be banned. However, I don't think emulator times (including Wii VC and Gamecube because let's not forget that they're emulators too) should be compared on the same leaderboard as/directly to hardware times. We speedrun N64 games but nobody plays on N64 anymore because 'it's slow' - the fact is other versions are only faster because of inaccurate emulation (except iQue which has slightly different hardware). It's kind of sad really. I understand that not everyone wants to go and buy an N64 though and VC does sometimes feel 'nicer' to play on, which is why I don't think emulators should be banned.

I don't think people are going to be willing to change their opinions on this though. imho there would be literally no problem if there were an 'official' leaderboard for hardware times and another for emulator times.

No, it's not contradicting. People can still learn and do whatever runs they want on emulator, I just think that if they want to submit their runs it should be on an official version instead of an inaccurate unofficial emulator.

I'm still not sure... it just seems like it's creating another artificial barrier that would just intimidate people more if they don't get to participate in a meaningful way.

The whole "official" thing is a bit arbitrary too. I personally think running on emulator feels a bit icky, and I understand the fact that it's not an intended platform for playing the game. But if you want to go that route, then it's also not "intended" to do 99% of the tricks and skips you see in a speedrun, so idk. On principle emulator feels wrong, but it's not like ZSR is an "official" leaderboard, and the benefit of allowing emulator runs for newcomers outweighs that principle imo.

Banning emulator seems like the simplest solution at this point, but I'm definitely more interested in the compromises people have offered. As DeathBasket said, I don't think anyone is going to change their stance drastically, but I also don't think the issue needs to be black and white. All I know is the last thing I want is to antagonize people because they don't have access to the "best" version of the game, because that's an incredibly arbitrary barrier and that sort of peer pressure should NOT be a part of speedrunning.

If the people it's discouraging from participating in the community have such ideas about speedrunning (approving of innacuracate times), then great.

EDIT:


Is this a joke? holy shit lmfao

Well it was a stupid thing that popped into my head. I don't really believe this tbh

It actually does seem really contradictory though to me to allow vc but not other emulators. IMO, you can't have it both ways. Either emulators is allowed, or it's not. Differentiating based on who made it rather than the quality of the emulator seems silly to me.

Maybe we should perform some basic tests on emu runs in top 10%. If the intro is faster than on any console version, then that is obviously unacceptable. Test some of the loading zones as well perhaps.

To me it seems more arbitrary to allow some unofficial emulators and not others, than it does to ban emulators. People are going to be able to cheat no matter how they play the game so I kinda focus on how the system they're using actually functions without intentional cheating being considered. Emulator naturally does not always function as the official releases do, and it affects times. I think its fine if people want to run emulator and improve their times on it or whatever, and it should definitely be allowed on SRL, (and SRL leaderboards when/if they exist) but it seems to make sense to ban it from ZSR leaderboards, as they are the closest thing as there is to an "official" leaderboard.

If time was put in to making a standardized ZSR approved emulator, I'm not sure how I'd feel about it until i saw it, but it's a cool idea.

Also, VC/GC are not unofficial emulators, they are Nintendo releases. Banning them would be super dumb (and would never happen)

Some points


This makes sense. I am still against banning emulator though but I think the distinction should be between software/hardware instead of official/unofficial.


Official or not, emulated games don't play the same as N64 anyway. I feel like this can't be used as an argument against (PC) emulators when the majority of 'wr' and close times on the leaderboards are played on VC for the sole reason that N64 times can't compete with there being less lag, faster loading zones, faster pausing, etc. in the VC releases because of inaccurate emulation.
Having N64 and emulator on the same leaderboards actually encourages people to play emulator because it is easier to get a better time (not to mention easier to access). It also doesn't make a lot of sense when a even top player on the original hardware couldn't get close to the times people can get with an emulator.


I agree that having a standard emulator that people can use is a good idea but I can't see it ever being enforceable. People will play what they want. Again, I don't agree with banning emulators. I do think that people should stop having the double standard of "VC is good because it's official but PJ64 sucks" because both are pretty inaccurate (PJ64 is actually more accurate sometimes lol). If emulators are going to be banned it should be all or nothing, anything in between is adding unnecessary arbitrary rules that we shouldn't need.

Sorry if I sound like I'm attacking you or anything. I'm not, I'm just showing another point of view and I find this discussion interesting. :)

Let me change one thing here:
If unofficial releases are going to be banned it should be all or nothing, anything in between is adding unnecessary arbitrary rules that we shouldn't need.

I don't think I made it any more arbitrary, if anything I think I made it less arbitrary. I think the majority at this point would agree that all official releases should be allowed, and being official trumps being inaccurate (Yes, even the iQue). The matter is whether PJ64 should be taken off the leaderboards, which is both inaccurate and unofficial.


This is a good discussion!

Edit: one more thing

Maybe I'm just not seeing your point, but except for it being easier to access, these sound like reasons to ban emulator?

Do people against an emu ban support allowing more emus such as nemu64, mupen, or other PJ64 versions?

I think there's no reason not to standardize a specific emulator if you allow them. They're all equally accessible anyway. So it should probably be whatever is most accurate/fair.

I'd say only allow one emu and only one specific version of it. Otherwise it will get a huge unmaintanable mess. The plugins to be used should probably also be limited to a certain extent.
 
Maybe we can do some tests on that emulator to see how fast the intro is etc. If it differs per computer. Based on that data we can then make some sort of estimate of how it compares to other systems.

I agree with whyieyesya. If one's faster than the other, or if there's a significant/unfair advantage over how it runs on console/iQue/VC then there's gonna be an issue. Sticking with one emulator (the one most accurate to consoles), default graphics (barring input devices), and non-modified ROMs should be fine.

Besides, hasn't this issue been dwelt upon before? I remember something about PJ64 1.7 and earlier being allowed because the loading times were milliseconds off of consoles, and that other things pretty well evened it out. If this is a newly thought issue, then how did the current rules and regulations come to light?

So some people are saying ban VC because it's an inaccurate emu. Putting it nicely, thats the stupidest thing I have ever heard. VC is a official version of the game, it was released by nintendo. If the question was weather or not to ban 1.0/1.1 VC injects, then it would make sense, but thats like saying we should ban n64 1.2 because it's not n64 1.0 so it's not the real version of the game. If you want to add whatever time you need to make it as if it was run on n64, then you would have to add times to the n64 100% runs that use version exclusive glitches.


If the emu is accurate, it should be allowed as long as no emu exclusive functions are used, but I still stand on the no emu side

i like deathbaskets idea of n64 leaderboard and then a leaderboard for everything else

version differences are stupid and the focus should be on skill. if everyone plays on n64 there is easy comparison. buying a n64 + whatever types of carts you want is a 1 time purchase and honestly not that expensive, and only people who actively care on being on the main leaderboard would have to buy it

I like the idea of sticking with N64. Also, getting JP/US OoT for PAL players is no big deal at all. You can get a region converter that will work just fine and the game itself isn't that expensive on eBay at all.

The problem I'd have with splitting leaderboards is that some people will go for the easiest 'record'. Also, you'll still have the debate whether the #1 time on the leaderboard for system x is just as good as the #1 time on the leaderboard for system y.

nobody takes people who say "emu world record" or "____ wr" or whatever biinny/5upamayne/whatever say seriously though. the point would be that the n64 leaderboard is the leaderboard to use/go off of. in time, if people follow through with this, all the n64 records would be more optimized anyway because the good players would switch to compete

My feeling with emulator being banned would be 'get rich or gtfo'. That's what you're implying. You say a Wii is cheap and after saving a bit you can get one and a cheap capture card, and that's right if you live in USA or a first world country at least. To a lot of people even getting a controller adapter to use on PC for emulator is an issue (I took a lot of effort to find a very overpriced one). And buying online is an issue when stuff do not delivered where you live.

Banning emulator is restricting the competition to people with money and access. Even to get a capture card, I have to go throug several alleys checking stands trying to find a bootleg easycap equivalent that will be highly overpriced (at least 5 times its normal price, and it's bootleg). I'm sure I'm not the only one who practically lives in a hole regarding technology that came out more than two years ago. But for a lot of people finding an American (or worse, japanese) console that came out in 2006 (iirc) is hard, and then having enough money to afford it without starving for a month is another issue to deal with.

So please don't say 'if they really cared they wouldn't mind spending some money'. Take into account that people in this kind of countries earn half what you earn from twice the work you do, and then the stuff required is hard to find and highly priced once found.

If you dont' want to rank emu and console in the same console then don't, just put them on a separate leaderboards, just don't go all 'gtfo' on emu. Many communities have separate leaderboards for emulator times when it's too inaccurate, I don't see why OOT can't (also at least on any% and possible no RBA/WW ique is faster, so PJ64 is still non advantageous).

After reading the responses here I had a somewhat vague idea, sorry if this doesn't cover everything as I only thought of it today

Assume you're on the OoT any% leaderboards

You see the following:

Fastest Nintendo 64 time is 20:44 by Wallis_Reflect, click here for N64 list
Fastest GameCube time is 24:19 by DeppJay, click here for GCN list
Fastest iQue Player time is 18:51 by Cosmo, click here for iQue list
Fastest Wii VC time is 19:00 by skater82297, click here for VC list
Click here for unverified times

Below this you see the main leaderboard (master list), which is a combined list of the first 4 of those links.
Unverified times wouldn't appear on the main list. Emu runs wouldn't be verified. Runs without videos wouldn't be verified.

This would allow the following:
Combined competition as we have now (allowing all official releases on a master list)
Supporting competition on a console by console basis by listing the times at the top making them more attractive than the many current filter buttons.
Still allowing emu players to submit but they wouldn't appear on the master list.
Increase the legitimacy of the leaderboards by require videos for verification/appearing on the master list.
We could also set some reasonable standards for verification like requiring direct capture and the video in one piece.

I think these steps would go a long way to improving the state of the leaderboards and would put less tension on getting either an iQue or VC-J.
You could take it even a step further for example, by clicking "N64 list" you now have options for NTSC-U, NTSC-J, and PAL.

This is a bit ambitious and I only thought of this today so forgive me if I didn't fully think this through.

Perfect.

I like it

Maybe something like this (quick n dirty photoshop)

(http://i.imgur.com/PfKqzdf.jpg)

Would this mean there are no more language/region filters? Or would those still be tabs at the top or something?

Not really sure the optimal way to handle region filtering with this type of implementation, so there's nothing on the mockup right now. If all else fails you could just have the little buttons still I guess

I feel the same way, and it looks really nice as is in the mockup. I don't really want to have a whole debate about region differences too, so maybe it's best to leave that as is.

Yes. People run on VC because the game emulates faster than it would run on N64. Why not allow other emulators that do the same thing? I can see why people would be against it since some emulator load times are a joke but if emulator is allowed at all then restricting it seems silly. I know this encourages people to play on a less accurate platform to save more time but isn't that why VC is used anyway?


Being released by Nintendo doesn't make it good. If a more accurate N64 emulator existed on PC I feel like people would still hate on it because it would have to emulate lag and loading times properly and therefore be slower than VC is. If VC played exactly like N64, nobody would use it because the resets would still be slower. I disagree with distinguishing between official/unofficial since it encourages people to play VC versions to make it easier to get a better time. The standard for speedrunning an N64 game should be to play on an N64 console. This is assuming people want to compete anyway. Seems weird that only 1/10 'N64 Zelda world records' on this site was played on an actual N64. Emulators shouldn't be banned but the times should be separate to encourage N64 as the most 'legitimate' platform.


It works.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

I think it's fine to allow some emulators, but not others. For example, allowing bsnes for snes, but nothing else makes perfect sense. It emulates a snes so well that it may as well be a snes. Other emulators of course are not nearly as good, so it makes sense not to allow them.

So if there was some leaderboard for "unverified times" and that's where all of the emu runs go, is there gonna be anything stopping me from submitting some ridiculous time like 0:01 for any%?
If the times aren't going to be verified then is there even a point to having the leaderboard? If you remove ridiculous times like that, then you are basically verifying anything that isn't removed.

obvious fake times would be removed of course, the same way you don't see a 00:01 time with no video at the top of the current leaderboard

but would non-obvious fake times be ignored? it just doesn't make much sense to me to not verify any emulator runs, it would just make that leaderboard a mess

For the record, the runs may still be checked (at least I might), even if they can't be verified.

Knowing the skill level of a runner and their past runs can also help verify their future runs. If somebody all of a sudden has a console run that is sub 20 or something, but their only history is on emulator, maybe their emulator runs would be proof of how credible their time is.

As much as I hate people running on emulator, I can't see banning it being a good thing, simply because it helps way more people get into speedrunning OoT which I feel has more of an impact than any other points mentioned.

I had an idea I brought up a long time ago in the original #leaderboards discussion that I wanted to bring up again - something like a lowest possible time to submit on emulator.  For example you wouldn't be able to submit anything under 20:00 for any%, or possibly base it on leaderboard standings, like nothing higher than 10th place.  This would allow the newer players to get into the game just like always but encourage the good/serious players to switch to console.  The main problem with this is just how arbitrary it seems and it would probably have to be manually implemented for every single game/category, but I thought this might be worth discussing.

As for the leaderboard mockup, I sort of like it, but it almost feels like it's going near having separate leaderboards for every console.  While it is just a filter, it gives an impression that something like fastest gamecube time is something significant.  It seems like a good idea that might just need some tweaking, but I'm not really sure what I would do for a solution.

Some people feel it IS significant (not me), and if speedruns are a skill showcase, then noting different times for versions with different speeds may be useful.

I don't really think it would make people all of a sudden go for the low-hanging GC record or whatever, and even if they did get it, no one would care. I think a record is only as prestigious to the community as the competition for it. In other words, if a version already has no competition, people would care about the record for it less, and if there's no hype for it, people wouldn't go for it. So it's kinda a non-issue, especially if you still have the master list front and center.

I think this idea would be a good compromise, but if we were to actually implement this in the future, I feel like it would be a hassle to base this on time, because of future improvements in categories that would lead to higher standards that would be considered as a "good time". Basing this on leaderboard standings would set a more clear borderline of what runs should be played on official releases, and it would save the effort of constantly updating the borderline for every significant improvement in each category.

I like this idea. A revision of this would be that all emulator runs have a standardized and universally accepted handicap they must add to their runs. That way no runs can be denied. So if a god runner of emulator submits a time of 18:30 for any% they must add 54 seconds (or whatever the agreed upon handicap factor should be). So their submitted time would actually be 19:24.

And what if it the player is above godlike skill and still has a record with the added penalty? Should we then just increase the penalty so his record isn't a record anymore? Aren't we then just giving ourselves extra work, because there will be debates the whole time of how high this penalty should be?

I think we're making it too complicated with the penalty. Not verifying emulator runs (like Cosmo suggested) is a less agressive and most of all less arbitrary measure imo.

Dumb idea especially because emu isnt even faster anyway. Lets say I get some awesome PB, instead of saying good job on this run you are basically just looking at the emu players and saying F*** you your time is not getting verified. The community would probably look at the runs of emu runners as unlegit runs which I would hate. As an emu runner, I would be very annoyed if this happens and it is a huge inconvenience for me to switch to any other platform. I am sure this is the case for other emu runners too.

I oppose. This would be more discouraging to high level emu players who happens to get a time that exceeds the borderline, and it would add a lot of unnecessary effort for the community to agree on a handicap and edit the times. As whyieyesya stated, this idea is a bit more aggressive compared to not verifying emu times.

In my opinion, it should be like this: if the borderline in ZFG's idea were be based off of time (which would be more of a hassle for reasons stated in my previous post), then we should leave the emu times that exceed the borderline unverified (a more passive approach). If the borderline were to be based off of leaderboard standings (less of a hassle), then we should prevent the emu times that exceed the borderline to be submitted (a more aggressive approach, but leaving the emu times unverified would be a mess).

Many of us already see it like this, mostly because of illicit modifications to settings, inconsitenty between emulators used, etc. Alot of communities laugh at the thought of a run even being done on emulator and immediately condone it; this isn't seen as widely in OoT because so many people currently use it.

I don't think this is a good idea. A compromise may be to have 'unofficial' times hidden by default so that the leaderboards normally only show runs on official versions and, while the unofficial times could be verified, they wouldn't be able to be ranked or would automatically rank below all 'official' runs. That, or just a separate leaderboard altogether.

I still think leaderboards for N64/everything else is the way to go but I can't see it happening realistically.

I think that before you can come up with a solid solution to this, you have to identify what kind of behavior you want the leaderboards to encourage. The reason why so many people instantly disagree with each other is because we all have different visions of what purpose the leaderboards should serve. Should it show the fastest times by default regardless of version/language? Should it encourage N64 use? Should it discourage emulator use? Should it present all versions as equal? Should it encourage use of only official releases? This is something that only the person in charge of the leaderboards (Cosmo) can decide on, and I think it's worth mentioning that compromising too much in an attempt to please everyone may just make things messier ("ok lets allow only an official ZSR approved emulator with specific plugins and settings to be shown by default on the main leaderboard, but hide the unverified times on said emulator unless they are under x arbitrary time which I subjectively view as where the line from 'good time' to bad time' is. Everyone wins!!!").

I know this is a tad bit off the specific topic, but I figured that the exact intent of the leaderboards should be put up for discussion and addressed directly since the conversation seems to be branching out more. Personally, I think that encouraging play on any official version- but also acknowledging respectable emu times- is a good compromise. But hey, I don't run the leaderboards.

rofl

As someone who has joined this community (and as such is pretty much a no name on this issue) really recently, I think the idea of banning PJ64 would really have deterred me from ever joining the scene in the first place. Which is something is something that speedrunners should really value, since I personally believe growing the scene is equally as important as making sure things are competitive. From an outsiders perspective, speedrunning is already a pretty inclusive community and a lot of the tricks  a player is required to learn don't have tutorials, or don't have modern versions of them...so the barriers to entry seem large to a new player (even with zsr being so useful). The game changes constantly so most of the new tricks I've had to learn are from other speed runners, or trying to figure it out on my own, and I think that is just one example of how in its present state there are still significant barriers to entry.

However, I am in favour of the idea of putting a time based cap on the legitimacy of PJ64 runs like ZFG suggested. Under 20 minutes still seems a bit too extreme, but somewhere in that range is good. It's worth mentioning that (to me) there exists enough stigma against emulator use that I always figured I would have to switch eventually, as I was of the mindset that nobody would take an emu world record seriously.

ALSO, I feel if you split the leaderboards by system, that wouldn't really matter because certain console categories wouldn't be taken seriously. Like nobody plays gamecube so having the best gamecube time is pretty meaningless when that system is so bad for speed running.

Any of the cheating arguments are silly to me as I would hope most people are bound a bit by honour, and more importantly I think it is easy to cheat on other systems as well so we kind of just have to trust people on that one.

My biggest problem with banning emulator is that if you ban emulator why not make it so that only one system should be used in the first place? World records that were only records because of version differences always bugged me (any% iQue comes to mind), and even though systems like VC (which I prefer playing) are still considered "official releases" there seems to be a lot of debate surrounding version differences that could get shut down by switching to one universally accepted platform (something I'm not really in favour with).

Again i'm not as important of a person here, but I figured I would give my opinion as someone who has been following and running for about 6 months now.

Putting a cutoff point on times people can submit is kinda dumb because it doesn't allow recognition of skill that some people might have. Also, about people not taking 'emulator world records' seriously, 8/10 records on this site are played on emulators. People who still play the original console are at a complete disadvantage for most categories and I feel it shouldn't be this way. The best time for an N64 game should be the best time on an N64 console.


What about when Wii VC times were only records because Wii VC runs faster than N64 can?

I meant non official emulators like PJ64* sorry should have clarified.

For the record, when I said I agreed with the idea of ZSR providing an emulator, I didn't necessarily mean just for the leaderboards, but also for general practice and learning the game. If we are documenting emulator findings on the site anyway (i.e. deku stick crashes as adult on emulator), we should probably standardize what we're talking about. Sorry for being a bit off topic, I don't really have much else to add here.

If we're gonna ban emu from LBs and shut out half the community, might as well ban everything besides N64 while we're at it. Honestly iQue is a joke and Wii VC is also inaccurate. I'm not saying this is a good idea, but if we ban emu we might as well ban everything else thats faster than the original hardware and ACTUALLY make things "fair".

I think it's a bummer and would discourage players. I'm new to the community and have a pb of 24:17 and it already sucks that it seems I have to get a fantastic pb to get any acknowledgment. I play on pj64 1.6 and on runs other than any% some tricks that have to be buffered already puts it at a disadvantage.

I have VC and the GC version but US. I use pj64 1.6 for three reasons.
JP rom
I'm new and only know how to record my runs on OBS
And I'm clueless on JP wad injections

I would love to do runs on vc if I could make it JP and be able to record the VC and put a wad injection to run JP( I just recently got OBS and recorded a 24:17 after two days. So I'm lost when it comes to recording both vc and splits.

I know it's not a whole lot of input. I just wanted to point out my point of view as a current pj64 1.6 runner. I am also pretty serious and plan on starting to get competitive, but it sucks if emu runners get the crap end of the stick unless it's 2. 0 or something.

Please don't flame me I'm new :(

I'm gonna note my thoughts on this post.


The ban was just on leaderboard submission (and has recently been suggested that they simply be moved to a seperate category, rather than removing them completely), nothing is stopping you from still doing runs.

Growing the community is great, but along with growth you're also gonna get more people who want to try to cheat, which is infinitely more easier (and also unintentionally possible to the ignorant) on emulator. Additionally, the community would still grow even if emulator runs are removed from verified boards or outright banned. The community grew immensely before the leaderboards were in place, the community grew before a large amount of people did runs on emulator, and the community will continue to grow, regardless of the aforementioned acceptance.

It really isn't. There's more tutorials and documentation for Ocarina of Time speed running than any other game. And, again, this isn't preventing you from learning or even doing runs on emulator.

This is highly opinionated, and would be hard to say what is or isn't serious. I view any OoT category that isn't Any% or 100% as basically a joke with arbitrary restrictions, but there's still people who will do runs. If the previously removed "Child Dungeons" category has shown us anything, it's that people will do runs of anything that has any kind of "officialness" to it.

It really isn't. Emulators, cheating devices for them, and the games themselves are free for most people. You can't artificially modify a console's base frame rate settings without modifying the hardware in some sort of fashion (which requires a console and the equipment to do so, both not free), but all you have to do is change a setting or two in an emulator, or tick on an action replay code. Of course, AR codes are easily attainable on console, but they're also more noticeable than a very slightly raised or varied frame rate setting.

Running on the fastest official version of a game has been around since before SDA. It's too difficult to outright ban an official version of the game without mass community agreement (see: GBA version of LTTP). With (unofficial) emulators, it's easy, since they're made to compare to very specific console versions, are unofficial, and can do a very poor job of emulating said console.

No one here is any more important than anyone else. We're all speed runners.

Calm your hostility. No one is preventing anyone from still doing runs on emulator, and it's even been said they would stay on the leaderboards. The only people being shut out are those irrationally upset and quitting speedrunning if this happens.

iQue is a joke? In what way? Wii VC wasn't intentionally created to try to perfectly emulate N64, so naturally it's inaccurate. Neither will be banned in the foreseeable future however, unless you can give extremely solid arguments as to why they should.

I would love to see this, but the idea of "running on the fastest official version" is too ingrained in the speed running community.

Ban emu just means that people who can't access consoles as easily as all of you seem to are getting excluded from speedrunning.

Can we just make it clear that nobody is getting excluded from speedrunning? Whether emu is taken off leaderboards, or kept separate on leaderboards, absolutely DOES NOT hinder your ability to run and enjoy the game. If your only motive in playing is the leaderboard, then thats your own problem.

Yes but a community that is as inviting and promoting further growth as possible is beneficial for everyone...? Even if that is "their own problem" it's still important to tailor (at least in some part) the community to be open to new players. Leaderboards mean something to some players. Being able to see their name compared to other runners might be a primary motivation for that player, and I wouldn't want to stop that.

Pheenoh:



You're misunderstanding me, I mean that nobody would take a person with the highest gamecube any% time seriously. When I said "console category" I meant like GC, VC etc. So if we were to split it up by console, some sections (again gamecube comes to mind) would be kind of underwhelming, which makes me feel it isn't worth doing.


Very true, but it just feels like the friendlier the better right? Some people really value leaderboards and think they are important, and if that brings in more people, that should be considered. Obviously the scene is growing, but something potentially hurting the pace of that growth might not be a good idea



Yeah you're right that's fair.

Again just trying to state the opinion I believe I would have had when I first started running the game, as that wasn't long ago. It seemed pretty intimidating, and any incentive/ removal of barriers that I could get really motivated me. That's all

Good discussion guys  :)

People literally aren't reading the thread at all. They're just posting and leaving.

If Nintendo officially re-releases a game on different hardware, there is literally 0 reason to not use it if it is faster. N64 elitism is a very archaic way of thinking that unfortunately happens to be perpetuated by a handful of other communities as well, and really isn't something that is taken seriously in the modern speedrunning scene. However, this thread is dedicated to discussing a ban of a non-official release from the leaderboards, so moving on:


Even though I disagree with some of this and some other points you stated later on, I know exactly where you're coming from. I started speedrunning OoT (what feels like not all that long ago) running old MST off of my mom's shitty laptop on PJ64 with a PS3 controller. Even though most of the tricks and technical things were explained on ZSR, there was still a lot that I had to pick up and learn from people in the community as you said (although I never felt like the community was particularly inclusive). I understand that the amount of things that a completely new person to the community has to learn is pretty daunting, and that banning emulator submissions to the leaderboards may just add to that barrier, but I strongly feel that moving from emulator to some sort of official version is a natural stepping stone. How the majority of the community feels about emulator is that it is not something that is or should be encouraged, but rather begrudgingly accepted and appropriately restricted so as to not shut out new players. Restricting emulator submissions from the ZSR leaderboards to some effect (I would not be completely against simply hiding emulator times by default rather than banning them from submission altogether) is, I feel, another positive way to encourage this desired behavior.

Absolutely this.

Not being able to compare your times (at least to other emulator players) may not be excluding from spedrunning, but it certainly looks and feels like being excluded from the community "oh, you can speedrun if you want, but it doesn't count at all".

IMO, Emulator runs should be separated from console in the leaderboards if it can't stay as it is right now. Personally, I don't see why change it. It's not like an emulator will beat a console time for a WR, with VC and iQue having the advantage.

I know I speak for myself and others when saying that I didn't really care either way until this thread. This thread has really taught me a lot about the plight of the emulator speedrunner and it has really made me realize that Emulator should be banned because there are no good reasons to support it that Cosmo didn't already mention

Basically yeah. It might not be direct exclusion, but you can't really argue that is encouraging either right?

I plan to switch to VC soon, and I agree that an official console transition is natural, but I just hate the idea of people feeling more intimidated as a result of this idea I guess?


I don't think the community is inclusive necessarily, but it does feel like you have to know people who know more than you to improve if there are no tutorials available. Major streamers just don't have the time to explain tricks often, and they are usually the ones who are up-to-date on everything. I was lucky to meet other players that could assist me in some of the problems I had along the way, and

But those reasons that Cosmo mentioned (that I argue are good reasons) are basically just being elaborately echoed by a lot of people...?

oh no you misunderstand me

some of them are getting elaborated, but the majority of the other reasons for keeping it that are posted in this thread are what make me really want to ban it

I don't know, I think being forced to actually interact with the community in some way is what gives the speedrunning community a personal feel. Besides, as Pheenoh also mentioned, OoT is one of the most if not the most well documented speedgame as far as resources go. The vast majority of other video games will force you to find he right people to talk to if you want the scoop on glitches and tech for speedrunning it.

Since other people have brought this up, I guess I don't feel totally silly saying I don't mind the idea of only playing on N64 since it's the original hardware. I don't think it's a beneficial idea for the community as a whole, and I certainly don't think it's going to happen, but it's something that I've secretly felt in the past.

And since people have mentioned cheating, it's also possible to splice runs. We're not just talking about blatant cheating like savestates or cheat codes. It's probably easier to do when the run has a lot of savewarps or something, but I'm just saying.


I don't want to get too off topic, but I will say that getting into speedrunning OoT is quite a bit overwhelming, probably now more than ever, just because there seems to be SOO much to learn about the game (not just the structure or layout of the game that you would learn from playing through it casually, but all the subtle mechanics, physics, techniques, strategies, setups, etc.). You don't need to know EVERYTHING about the game to learn a certain category, but I do think you get better at the game the more experience and knowledge you have about it, so just copying strats from a world record video might be effective short-term, but less so in the long run.

ZSR is unfortunately becoming a less and less valuable resource for information, not just because it gets outdated, but because of all the tutorials and explanations on YouTube and Twitch nowadays which are so much more to the point and easy to understand. While we ARE working on getting ZSR out of this slump, and it is useful for storing miscellaneous information, it seems like the vision of ZSR in the future is still a very wikipedia-like format (which I like, but it's also lacking). We have loads of technical information and multiple pages networked together, but we still don't have a simplified explanation for the things that people need to learn, and we certainly don't have an explanation for every individual strategy for a trick (there are like 10 million ganondoor setups now for example, and while it's impractical to put them all on ZSR, almost all of them have value over the others in some aspect). I do think video tutorials fit better for this sort of thing, but I wish ZSR was a place you could go to get all the help you needed.

Wow, I really got off topic. I might continue this in a more appropriate thread, but I guess my point is that in making the site better, we can make it easier to get into running the game regardless of emulator and all that stuff.

I definitely like that too, but it just sucks if you haven't made those friends. Plus just because it's a well documented speed game doesn't mean it is super easy to learn. Nathan has a huge point in my opinion.

For example, I used to be like semi-pro level in StarCraft 2. That game had a TON of content that made it SO easy to learn more and more stuff. I feel because of that, I improved as much as I did and that amount of avaialble knowledge made the scene more competitive

Comparatively, because the OoT/speedrunning community is smaller, even it having the most resources of any speed game doesn't mean it is easy to pick up. New strats seem to come out regularly and there are still tons of strategies I still don't know how to do because I just can't find the resources I need



This all is starting to get off topic though lol.

My issue with VC is that the game isn't running on hardware, it's just another emulator. That you had to buy the console the emulator is running on shouldn't make a difference. I don't have a problem with people playing VC and it's been around a while and isn't about to change. It's just with my background I don't understand why people treat VC and PJ64 as completely different things.

Plus sides of sticking with N64 though:
-don't have to buy a new console every time a 'faster' version is discovered (if you really want to compete)
-don't have to (illegally) modify the console to get the faster version of a game
-times are 'accurate' (how well would you have to play to get sub 19 OoT on original hardware?)
-nice debug screen on game crash instead of a horrible noise :-*
-unofficial leaderboard can allow WAD injects and 1.0/1.1 for OoT on PJ64 again

Honestly I don't have a problem with the way it is now. Switching to one 'official' platform would stop people arguing about version differences and whatnot but it seems this isn't something the majority is willing to do, which is fine. People aren't going to want to switch to a 'slower' platform and I understand this, just putting out my ideas.

I have a few problems with the multi-system leaderboards, mainly the fact about how emu times are treated. You're sort of treating them like that one guy in high school and you're like "yeah you can chill here just stand like 10 feet over there". You're allowing them, but not really acknowledging them. Worse then that, they will be checked but still be unverified because they're on emu (to avoid 1 second WRs for example). My second problem is the face that all systems are covered. I really don't want oot to turn into sm64 wnere there are 4 different leaderboards for the same game. Believe me, there will be some idiots that will go for gamecube WRs, I guarantee it no matter how lowly gc is looked down upon. That and the fact that the current WR will share a LB with 2 other times... Seems kinda off to me.

Edit: not trying to be an ass to gc players, I'm just saying that there are some people that will deliberately use the gc version instead of a faster version that they may own to claim a fake WR.

Here's my idea. Have 2 LBs, 1 for official verified runs and one for all runs. On the first one, all the times that are present will be all the n64, gc, vc and ique time that have a video and that have been verified, and on the other, have all times, any system, video or not. This way, people will see the "official" leaderboards, but emu runners won't be completely shut out and their times will still appear and can be verified by admins. Same deal with people without any means to capture their game, their times can still appear on LB #2

This may or may not belong here, but if this can be confirmed then it would probably be nice to have for reference. If you can stand my monotone/sick-with-a-cold voice, and my apparent inability to read numbers, that is.

Explanation: I was toying around in PJ64 with the new Mido Skip setup, and I kept failing the actual clip. So I made a savestate mid-jumpslash, started experimenting, and stumbled upon what could (major emphasis on "could" because I'm not sure about this at all) be a big problem with emulators. Not sure if I'm the only person with this issue, as it could just be my hardware/software/drivers, but I don't have another controller  to test this out with.

Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83JAuRtjcBs)

Basically, if I'm the only person having this problem then that sucks for me, but if this is common then "Swordless Any%" will be very difficult on emulator, and by extension, will very likely keep Top10/WR emulator runs off the leaderboards.

Out of all the ideas I've read, this one seems like the most plausible one. I second this.

I never really expressed my own thoughts into this topic because I've been neutral; but I feel like if our intentions are to encourage usage of official releases, then banning submissions of unofficial releases from the leaderboards would not be the way to go. Doing so would give people the impression that we are discouraging emulator usage rather than actually encouraging usage of official releases, and that would hurt the community. Quo's idea of filtering times of official releases on one leaderboard, and have all times on another, would give emu players the impression that their times aren't being totally excluded, but at the same time, give them the impression that if they want their time to be recognized as an "official" time, they would have to make the switch to an official version of the game.

The point is that, even if this happens, nobody will care about the record. So if there are people that go for gamecube records because they care about it for whatever reason, then good for them. And if the Gamecube version does gain popularity and competition, then that just means it deserves the record would be more meaningful to more people. I don't really see how this is a bad thing. Although I don't expect that to happen.


This sounds pretty much like the compromise Cosmo suggested, except still allowing emulator runs to be verified. I kinda like this, simply because I recognize that if you don't verify emu runs, then there is no incentive for them to be checked thoroughly. I'd hope they would be checked anyway, but maybe this is a better idea. Basically have a tag for "verified" and another for "official".

That's just something that is expected to happen when you use a controller like PS2-3-4 or XBoX, because the stick will move at the slightest motion. If you plug a n64, GC or CCpro controller and use it with PJ64 it is much more accurate.

i know my opinion does not matter but i think if there is a ban it should have been done at the beginning. or just ban anything 1.7+ i have gc wii vc without a wad injection and 1.6 to record, practice, and time my runs.

in my experience pj64 1.6 isnt superior to VC or even GC whatsoever. i think at least if any pj64 is going to ban why not ban anything 1.6+?? i dont have experience with 1.7 so im not sure how it runs.

i started learning any% 2 or 3 months ago and got a 24:17 202 on the leaderboard with a video link. granted not a great time but still it puts a smile on my face. but if its not acknowledged or verified i might as well post a fake time without a link. and if emu runs aren't or will not be verified i just personally feel like its not a pb until verified. this may sound stupid this is just my short experience in the community.

i also do mst and on 1.6 the game crashes half the time in forest stalfos key room and forest trial. and the double frame buffering ><. as
out
this is just my personal opinion regarding all emu players including me even though i can learn to softmod my wii but thats not the point since not everyone has access/funds to stream/record from vc (i dont really know much about)


i probably do have the funds and a little searching could have me running on vc. but im speaking for emu players in general.

i work 5 or 6 days a week and literally spend almost every moment when im not working or with my girl im working on my runs. this is just a response to the statement that if you cant run on a modded wii or ique your not a serious competitive player in this community which is a complete assumption

sorry if this is a mess i just got back from the bar :P

It really should've, but just because it wasn't done immediately doesn't mean that it can never be done

if you pull out hookshot before you enter that stalfos room the game never crashes (at least for me it didn't), sadly there's not any way to prevent the forest trial crash

Well, it's not legit. The game doesn't run the same as it would on the actual console. In order to have a fair competition, everyone needs to be playing exactly the same game. And when you're running it through an emulator that completely changes the usual behavior of the game, you're not. It doesn't even matter whether it's faster or slower, it's still not legit.

I think an amalgamation of mentioned ideas might be a decent compromise, forgive me for not quoting the necessary people when referencing their ideas.

You have a main list which only consists of one item, N64 - JP v1.2 for instance, this is the primary list that appears; the secondary list would be made up of everything else, Wii VC, PJ64, etc. If possible I think having the option to filter that list by language or hardware, not just on a solitary console but with a kind of checkbox system to cross filter different combinations would be a useful addition.

People seem to have varying opinions on what is or is not considered legitimate and whatever official ruling is made on the matter is likely not going to change that, the way I see it is currently some people are looking at the master list and mentally blacking out certain times due to hardware choices or what-have you, I'm not sure anything is wrong with that. In this scenario ZSR exemplifies one setup but still legitimizes the others, at the end of the day nobody is getting a cash prize for this or winning an award, if you and maybe your circle of friends wish to customize your list and strike-out all iQue or PJ64 times then you're probably already mentally doing so on the current one.

It was said that adding filters may drive people to run on unpopular hardware just to have a #1 time somewhere, well I think that's fine. At least, it doesn't seem detrimental to the community, at the end of the day it would only be legitimate depending on what your personal take on it was. If you wish to compete against like-minded individuals that should be facilitated if possible on a site like this and if another runner or viewer wants to ignore an entire bracket of runs it would be as simple as unchecking a box or two, conversely if you feel your PJ64 time is equally as legitimate as an N64 time then make the list reflect that for yourself.

This idea would hinge on the ability to implement the system, ZSR's willingness to keep verifying all those runs and God knows how much discussion on what should be on that default list. Actually as a quick adjunct to that, having the filter I described on a single list rather than having a secondary at all might save some future verbal bloodshed.

In short ZSR almost definitely can't make everyone happy, so either they should ignore the thread and make a decision internally or resign to letting people stick to whatever prejudices they may hold. The third option of convincing everyone to a singular view, no matter how logical, isn't likely. I think it's reasonable to ask ZSR to host your time on their leaderboard, I don't think it's reasonable to ask an entire community to feel the same way about your time.

Except no one is.

And to be honest, that's the point that I don't understand, emulators are slower, crash more often and don't permit to do some tricks. If they were actually faster for any category, I could see why they would need to get banned.
But here's, that's basically banning a man with a wooden leg from a sprint race. Yeah, depending on the quality of his fake leg it could give him an advantage, but if it's a wooden leg clearly it won't ever give him an advantage above other runners.

I think, but I'm not 100% sure, that PJ64 is faster than N64. Obviously, because all other 'legit' options are probably faster (no solid proof), no one really cares. I think this is a pretty shitty attitude, because N64 runs are being excluded more by this.

I'm really in favor of making N64 default.

VC doesn't run the same as the n64, you can hold a stick as adult. This changes the AD and ganonless route for those games giving VC an advantage over n64 1.2. Emu runs are much closer to the actual game then gc/vc if you're comparing it that way. (not too sure about the status of stick on B on ique)


There are 18 diffrent versions of OoT (not counting MQ of 3DS versions), how easy do you think it would be to have everyone use the same game?

Anyways the problem isn't that emu is faster or slower, it's the point that there are quite a few emu runs that are cheated using various emulator exclusive functions, such as rerecords, diffrent input settings, etc.

Pretty much what this guy said. All that needs to be worked out is what should be on the default leaderboard, or "master list".

What I like about the idea Cosmo suggested:
- Puts all verified runs on one leaderboard, which looks a lot cleaner and discounts obvious fake times that were recently submitted or something
- Puts all unverified times on one leaderboard, making it easy for editors to look through new runs
- Puts preference over console runs without completely banning or excluding emulator runs
- Acknowledges fastest times for every version, so the argument of skater's run being "better" despite being slower is still acknowledged to some degree (whether or not you agree, people will always argue this or feel this way whenever it comes up, and I think an acknowledgement is all people really ask for)
- You can still filter to whatever preferences you like, just like you can now

What I don't like:
- Doesn't let emu runs be verified (I suggested this originally lol), which means there isn't incentive for editors to properly check them
- Doesn't address language/region differences
- Doesn't address original hardware argument, where N64 > other consoles (whether or not you agree, this is definitely a common opinion that's been popping up)

I don't think all 3 of these issues really need to be addressed, but at least the first one can be fixed by having a separate tag for "official" and "verified".

I feel like this is somewhat addressed when the best N64 time one of the first things you see on the page

Fair enough

"i want to speedrun an N64 game but i dont have an N64" man life is so tough for those emu players out there

emu speedruns are literally stealing money from nintendo. ive already reported the IP addresses of all emu runners in this thread to the police. enjoy prison

(http://www.chatslang.com/images/shortcuts/twitch/admins/kappa.png)

VC is just another bad n64 emulator, and was included in what i said. It's not legit either.

It really doesn't matter if it's faster or not. It's more like allowing someone on a bicycle to compete in a car race. It may be slower, but that's not an excuse to allow them to compete on completely different grounds. If someone with a peg leg, or 9 fingers wants to speedrun oot, i won't object to them being allowed on the leaderboards. Having a handicap isn't the same at all.

Then again, how much proof is there that emulator is much slower other than a video showing a difference in loading times + obviously more pause lag. Maybe there's more material, but still it's really hard to compare two systems.

Since I'm curious, would anything stop me from re-submitting my old times, change them to "VC" but just say I have no video?
Maybe it's just me but I don't see the point of banning unverifiable systems if you're not gonna ban unverifiable times in general.

So banning is definitely silly. I like Quo's idea about the different leaderboards, though I think a filter would be simpler. You don't really need to make a fuss about different systems as long as the info is presented next to the time, like it is right now.

The police won't listen, believe me, I've reported so many VCheats without a response, it's insane.

Cosmo already mentions the need to post a video in this post (http://forums.zeldaspeedruns.com/index.php?topic=1581.msg27175#msg27175).

I know but it was mostly in regards to banning it entirely and not just having it unverified.

i recently came back from a 1-year break and all I have available to me is Emu.

if the people on emu want to directly compare to VC, they'll have to get VC.
i think Emu times should not be officially recognized when they're within the top 5 (or whatever number) simply because of how hard it is to define "Emu" - mupen, pj64. what version?
there's only one VC 1.2 OoT Japanese, but Emu 1.2 OoT Japanese runs differently in a million ways (e.g. its ~5s faster every reset).

i liked the idea of approved emulator settings to streamline things a little, but it doesn't change my view. i want top-tier runs distinguished by skill and execution, emulator simply depends on too many factors.

lastly, i dont think n64 should have its own category. what is the point? this is speedrunning. last I checked, it's about getting the fastest time possible. that's why cosmos iQue run is accepted. it's faster and an official release.
n64s are not more accessible, theyre slower and in some cases more expensive.
want the fastest possible time? buy the fastest, official console.
n64: your priorities are messed up. VC is the obvious choice to achieve the fastest possible speedrun, clinging to old standards is harmful to progress.

sorry if i come across a little angry. i think n64 players deserve no special treatment (except when there's an actual reason like oot 100% 1.0 eyeball frog early). the priority should be speed.

thanks for reading (probably not)

Is speedrunning about getting the fastest possible time? Or getting the best run in terms of skill? You mentioned both, but you can't really have it both ways when different versions/platforms have differences in speed. If you were to separate versions, you could have it both ways, because you can still have the fastest possible time within a certain regime. I've always thought there isn't much point in grouping everything together, because to me the point isn't to see the "fastest possible time", but to see the highest skill. That's the difference between a TAS and a RTA for example. A TAS is about seeing the game pushed to its limits, whereas a RTA is about seeing the runner pushed to their limits. So you might as well either standardize (which arbitrarily bans other platforms people might use), or separate (which can create way too many categories). You could say standardizing N64 is "less arbitrary", because it's the original platform the game was released for, but it's still not the best idea. There already is standardizing going on to some degree. For example, almost no one plays on PAL, and almost everyone tries to play on Japanese.

Regardless of how I feel, ultimately I want to do what's best for ZSR and the community, and I'm okay with the idea of putting everything on one board, as long as there is some acknowledgement that it affects skill rankings. Especially to someone outside the community who views the leaderboards, they're going to assume "fastest time = best played run", even though we all know that's not necessarily true.

I can honestly relate to what you said but from my experience, there's a double standard in the speedrunning community anyway.
But if we go down the road you've mentioned, it divides a community: some might play on N64 because the "WR" is not as good instead of becoming a competitor for the fastest time.

The only issue I have with not using time as a measure is how difficult it is. Pydoyk's 19:05 was an amazing run with the strats he used. However, it was beaten. New strats or not, skater beat it with an incredible run. Now Cosmo holds the WR, albeit with a more sloppy run (deal with it. i'm sure he'll beat it soon enough). But it's still the fastest time.

You see how difficult it gets when time isn't used as a definite measure. For me, speedrunning is most definitely about the fastest time possible. You argue that the "runner" is being pushed, but that's misleading: it's still the game that's being pushed. The core difference between TAS and RTA is that the former is idealistic, whereas the latter is realistic. Nevertheless, the game is being pushed.
The problem that arose with iQue is simply that a new and official version was found to be faster and from my experience, ZSR and SRL users really, really hate change.

My point is that so long as there is a double standard (and there most definitely is) in this community, streamlining anything will be hard to do.

It may seem off-topic, but I think the emulator issue is similar. Ultimately, you can't force anyone to do anything and cheating can take place anywhere. People can splice runs on console or use savestates on emulator. I don't understand why people cheat, but they do.
This topic has always been extremely controversial and it's not going to change. Cosmo bringing it up just shows how much people disagree with each other. I don't think there will be an understanding anyway.

Solution: ?? either take a bold risk and remove half of your submitted times (-> value as a leaderboard?) or define what is banned from emulator (-> only version xy, limit speed to whatever)

Hi.  I know my opinion probably doesn't mean a lot since I'm so new to speedrunning personally, but I'll throw it down anyway.  For some background, I've been running on an 64 j1.1 cart, and am currently in the process of upgrading to VC.  I've never used emulators--not even for practice.  (I'm too scared it'll goof up my just-emerging muscle memory.)  I have no personal stock in this argument.

But I am absolutely against banning emulators. 

Personally, I think saying 'it's so much easier to cheat on emu' is pretty much poppycock.  You can cheat on any device.  For our VCs, how many of us have a legitimate copy of the game?  Very, very, VERY few of us do.  Most of us had to softmod our wii and install a wad.  Couldn't a person get a wad somewhere that could be tampered with to run slightly faster?  Why isn't there any system in place to checks our wads?  This problem isn't fundamentally any different than the 'couldn't roms be tampered with?' issue.  The only difference is that the hardware for the wii is theoretically the same (which ISN'T actually true either, as I've heard reports that the Wii U has faster loading times, and that even some of the later-manufactured wiis are a bit faster, too).  I think standardizing the settings for emu and having ZSR host an emu download, like whyieyesya and nathanisbored suggested, is an excellent idea.  Emu players should show their settings at the end of their run.

And even if we have legit wads, couldn't you just string together a segmented video?  Pretty much every time a scene changes or Link has to go through a narrow space like a door, you could splice your video and take the best section and upload that, and (if done correctly) no one would be able to tell.  You can cheat on any device, and if you're the kind of douche that cheats, what version it is isn't going to stop you. 

All banning emu would do is discourage entry into the field and get rid of some really decent players who (for whatever reason--muscle memory, controller options, they don't have the luxury of money, etc) do play on emu.  A lot of people don't own a wii, or an n64--and if they do, they might not be willing to mod them to play the Japanese versions.  Saying "you have to shell out this money before you can become a member of our community" is a huge turn-off for a lot of people.  Part of the reason we have such a great community is that we have a lot of good resources for the game and a large influx of players.  I feel like not allowing emu at all will destroy accessibility and set the entrance bar way too high, and will stifle new player growth.

But you know what IS ok?  Saying "you have to shell out this money before you runs are RESPECTED by everyone in this community."  As evidenced by this very thread, there are a lot of people who look down on emu-users.  Anyone who's part of the community will pick right up on negative stigma and, if they're serious and want to get better times and be more respected.

That's the thing--IF they get serious.  Most people who are interested in running the game aren't serious enough to pay possibly hundreds of dollars before they even know if they like it.  Emu is a great way to enter into the community.  As others have mentioned, there are a lot of problems with emu--downright horrible pause buffering, places the game will completely crash--and between the social pressure and the physical constraints of the platform, a lot of people will be (and have been!) persuaded to upgrade. 


I think these are really great solutions.  Particularly the 'verified' and 'official' tags!  It's not a downgrade to emu players, but an UPGRADE for players of official versions.  That's a great way to incentivize upgrading to an official version without reducing the accomplishments of emu players.  I completely support these ideas.

For the leaderboards themselves, would there be a way to enable user settings where you can toggle what kinds of runs you want to naturally be able to see when you're logged in?  That way people can disable emu/ique/non-pal/non-english, or just show runs from the platform that they race on, or whatever they like as a default--to maximize their viewing experience? 

Well there is definitely more of a difference than that. That's why you have tons and tons of RTA runs, and generally only one TAS run at a time. RTAs are competitive, and therefore a skill showcase. TASes are about entertainment and pure optimization (and they're often collaborative). If both were trying to achieve the same goal except one is idealistic and one is realistic, then we wouldn't have the leaderboards. I mean, isn't the point of the leaderboard to see a ranking of skill levels? If you combine different versions on the same leaderboard, that kinda defeats the purpose. Regardless, the objective "fastest time" IS meaningful to a lot of people for whatever reason, and it is worth labeling somewhere. Maybe it would make more sense to have something at the top that says "Fastest time is 18:51 by Cosmo on iQue, click here for more iQue times" or something, and then have the VC leaderboard (most competitive platform) under that. Idk if there's a point to having a combined master list anyway, if the rankings don't mean what they're supposed to.

In addition to everything else said, I would like to point out that on an emulator the haunted wasteland is nearly impossible to fail due to the brightness compared to console. You dont even need to learn the desert on emulator, you just go through it. For n64 I actually have to count the flags, know where they are, and know the second part. Its much harder on console.

Decided to "make" my idea of the LBs quick things. Shoutouts to microsoft paint.

First off, the All Runs leaderboard. I hope I don't need to explain this one too much, it's basically what zsr is atm.
(http://i.imgur.com/yJcEC6v.png)

The Official Runs board. All times are N64, GC, VC or iQue, any language and they all have videos.
(http://i.imgur.com/vlVFyfj.png)

So like this, emu runs will be verified, runs without videos will appear in "All Runs", runs with videos that are waiting to be verified will be in "All Runs" and all the verified console runs will appear under both "All Runs" and "Official Runs".

If the brightness is the problem, you can turn up brightness on your TV or capture card. On the other hand, if you mean the draw distance is different, then yes it means its harder on N64 and easier on VC/GC/Emu; every platform has advantages and disadvantages.

Edit: Oh and also I like your idea Quo. Kappa b

(http://u.cubeupload.com/Njord/IMG201405041900091.jpg)

Look what you guys made me do! DO YOU THINK I'M MADE OF MONEY?! (http://static-cdn.jtvnw.net/jtv_user_pictures/chansub-global-emoticon-ddc6e3a8732cb50f-25x28.png)

This discussion made you buy the worst N64 version?

Actually, kinda, yeah. It's literally the only one I could find locally, without paying for shipping and such.

Haha fair enough

Did anything ever get done about this?  I'm starting to play OOT semi-seriously again.  My goals are always stuff like "Top 100," "Top 50," "Top 25," as opposed to specific times, so I'd like to compare my times on the leaderboards to everything EXCEPT emulators.  ie: see where I rank on a leaderboard of just iQue, N64 and VC. 

It seems fairly simple to just add an "All minus emulator" tab to sort by.  Is this anything that'll ever get done or has this discussion been put out by now?

Yeah, regardless of where you stand on the issue of banning emulator, it would be cool if the filter toggles were changed slightly so that you could have more than one active/inactive at once.

I'm pretty sure this topic isn't relevant anymore, but in case anyone who is in RWhiteGoose's situation reads this...

On speedrun.com (http://www.speedrun.com/oot) there's an Ocarina of Time leaderboard. The runs there are just synced from the ZSR leaderboards, but only the verified runs make it on there. Since emulator runs never get verified, they won't make it to speedrun.com. So if you only want to compare yourself to runs done on official hardware, speedrun.com's leaderboards are the place to go.

That's actually pretty cool, to bad it doesn't show ganonless.

It does show Ganonless. Just hit "Show misc categories" at the top right.

Emu runs do get verified on speedrun.com, but they are hidden by default. There is an option to show runs on emu.

Ah, thank you.