thoughts on banning PJ64 entirely from zsr leaderboards?

[LightSpeed]

This would be an interesting idea actually. The whole purpose of ZSR as a site is to help new people get into speedrunning Zelda games; that's why we have pages about different tricks and a leaderboard that doesn't require you to post a video to submit a run. It might also be helpful to provide an emulator, since we want the barrier to entry as low as possible.

as long as the emulators and roms chosen by ZSR are standardised and available to download on the website without too much trouble - it's pretty legit.

[Njordr]

thoughts on this subject?

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Nothing is actually planned here, just discussing this topic. I only ask that you do so in a civil manner.
What are your thoughts?

If people weren't using emulators for several years now, then maybe.

Myself being a new runner (that still hasn't done a run) I wouldn't say ban them from leaderboards, just keep them as their own category. I do agree that there's a bit too much variability in emulators to be able to group them with regular consoles, but there are reasons good enough to keep them valid for runs. Besides, most crappy to decent PC builds nowadays shouldn't really have any issues running PJ64, so I don't know about that either.

It's also becoming more and more difficult nowadays to come across an N64 or an iQue without buying them online for a pretty penny (S+H may or may not be included), so emulators especially help out people that can't actually afford that kind of stuff. And as jbop + others have said, VC also falls under the emulator category, even if it's a Nintendo-built one.

Also, how was the dip?

[Exodus122]

I don't think banning emulator is a good idea. As far as I know, emulator is slower for every category and has no real advantages. The fact that it runs at 60 instead of 59.94 seems more than offset by the long loading zone times (1.5-2 seconds longer than vc). Many people prefer playing on emulator because they like the ability to use a different controller. Obviously it should continue being banned to play on 1.0 for 100% runs on emulator (in fact, you could just make emulators for all categories run on version 1.2 to make it more similar to VC, which would be a good idea in my opinion). Force everybody to use default settings on pj64 1.6/1.7 and remove their run if there is evidence of them using custom settings. Also, many people run on emulator and will be discouraged if it's banned, as you said. I don't think it is an issue for these reasons.

[Pheenoh]

I'm for banning emus (innacurate ones, at least). If you aren't willing to fork out the cash to enjoy your hobby, find a different hobby.

[ahou]

I agree with banning all emulators, until there's one that isn't absolute garbage. That includes wii vc. When the day comes that we have a reasonably accurate n64 emulator, i think it would be fine to accept it, but none of the current n64 emulators are any good at all.

[Pokey]

people in top 10% of categories should be required to play on console imo. emu isnt consistent. look at the intro of tokyoboi's any% run. its like 2 seconds faster than other runs both on VC and emu.



also fuck keeta

[Geno]

ban that shit

[cafde]

Nothing is stopping people from running on emulator if they can't submit it to the leaderboards. If the lack of the option deters potential people from speedrunning the game because they can't submit their 25:31 any% time on emulator then so be it. I think almost everyone agrees that at the highest level of play that official versions should be required.　The goal of a leaderboard shouldn't be to include everyone and their brother who picks up a controller (and playing a game they don't even own).

It's pretty obvious if someone is cheating on n64 or vc, but there's always small things that can be changed in emulator that people won't necessarily notice. Leaderboards should move toward standardization.

[Jbop]

It's pretty obvious if someone is cheating on n64 or vc, but there's always small things that can be changed in emulator that people won't necessarily notice.

I agree with banning PJ64, for the main reason being that it is not an official version of the game, there also exists the issue with rom hacking.

It seems like people underestimate how easy it would be to cheat on console; it's something you're always going to have to deal with.

Maybe it would be an idea if ZSR provides an emulator. This could then just be PJ64 1.6/1.7 with the right settings. This emulator then has to be used from now on. Perhaps we can also modify it, to hardcode the settings or something. Obviously people can then still trick you, but at least it would make things more uniform.

I think this is a good idea. It's kinda what I was suggesting with PJ64 1.6 since there are fewer settings to change.

[nathanisbored]

I'm for banning emus (innacurate ones, at least). If you aren't willing to fork out the cash to enjoy your hobby, find a different hobby.

The goal of a leaderboard shouldn't be to include everyone and their brother who picks up a controller (and playing a game they don't even own).

ZSR is supposed to be a site to help new people get into speedrunning zelda, whether they are serious or not. That's the reason the site has pages of information all about it.

This attitude directly contradicts that.

people in top 10% of categories should be required to play on console imo. emu isnt consistent. look at the intro of tokyoboi's any% run. its like 2 seconds faster than other runs both on VC and emu.

This is a nice idea as well.

[DeathBasket]

thoughts on this subject?

pros:
- pj64 is inaccurate (graphical bugs, different lag amounts, game crashes etc)
- pj64 requires special rules in place to avoid it overtaking legit versions (for example banning the 1.0 rom but not the 1.2 rom)
- pj64 1.6/1.7 run at ~60.00 fps instead of ~59.94 fps. I compared a timelapse of hyrule field and PJ64 is faster here than VC, but only slightly
- more people switching to running on official releases
- don't have to deal with the clusterfuck of custom emulator settings/plugins affecting run time
- cheating via memory watching is no longer possible (without a lot of expensive hardware at least)

1. same for VC/Gamecube though but no one seems to care
2. rules like this shouldn't exist anyway
3. idk
4. imo 'official' shouldn't matter as much as playing on original hardware - vc is just another inaccurate n64 emu like pj64
5. comparable to people using wad injects to save on reset times (yes it happens)
6. cheating is very much possible and easy on any platform except iQue (maybe) right now

Honestly, I don't think emulators should be banned. However, I don't think emulator times (including Wii VC and Gamecube because let's not forget that they're emulators too) should be compared on the same leaderboard as/directly to hardware times. We speedrun N64 games but nobody plays on N64 anymore because 'it's slow' - the fact is other versions are only faster because of inaccurate emulation (except iQue which has slightly different hardware). It's kind of sad really. I understand that not everyone wants to go and buy an N64 though and VC does sometimes feel 'nicer' to play on, which is why I don't think emulators should be banned.

I don't think people are going to be willing to change their opinions on this though. imho there would be literally no problem if there were an 'official' leaderboard for hardware times and another for emulator times.

[cafde]

ZSR is supposed to be a site to help new people get into speedrunning zelda, whether they are serious or not. That's the reason the site has pages of information all about it.

This attitude directly contradicts that.

No, it's not contradicting. People can still learn and do whatever runs they want on emulator, I just think that if they want to submit their runs it should be on an official version instead of an inaccurate unofficial emulator.

[nathanisbored]

No, it's not contradicting. People can still learn and do whatever runs they want on emulator, I just think that if they want to submit their runs it should be on an official version instead of an inaccurate unofficial emulator.

I'm still not sure... it just seems like it's creating another artificial barrier that would just intimidate people more if they don't get to participate in a meaningful way.

The whole "official" thing is a bit arbitrary too. I personally think running on emulator feels a bit icky, and I understand the fact that it's not an intended platform for playing the game. But if you want to go that route, then it's also not "intended" to do 99% of the tricks and skips you see in a speedrun, so idk. On principle emulator feels wrong, but it's not like ZSR is an "official" leaderboard, and the benefit of allowing emulator runs for newcomers outweighs that principle imo.

Banning emulator seems like the simplest solution at this point, but I'm definitely more interested in the compromises people have offered. As DeathBasket said, I don't think anyone is going to change their stance drastically, but I also don't think the issue needs to be black and white. All I know is the last thing I want is to antagonize people because they don't have access to the "best" version of the game, because that's an incredibly arbitrary barrier and that sort of peer pressure should NOT be a part of speedrunning.

[Pheenoh]

No, it's not contradicting. People can still learn and do whatever runs they want on emulator, I just think that if they want to submit their runs it should be on an official version instead of an inaccurate unofficial emulator.

If the people it's discouraging from participating in the community have such ideas about speedrunning (approving of innacuracate times), then great.

EDIT:

The whole "official" thing is a bit arbitrary too. I personally think running on emulator feels a bit icky, and I understand the fact that it's not an intended platform for playing the game. But if you want to go that route, then it's also not "intended" to do 99% of the tricks and skips you see in a speedrun, so idk.

Is this a joke? holy shit lmfao

[nathanisbored]

EDIT:

Is this a joke? holy shit lmfao

Well it was a stupid thing that popped into my head. I don't really believe this tbh