Super Jumping (Big Ups)

[Disclude]

What do you mean by "normal"; do you mean what was and is intended by the developers, or what you defined as "normal" in your post regarding the rules?

Yea..I think "normal" should maybe be restricted to areas that are without glitches, and change the yellow example there to red. Just to make sense with stuff like cave ceilings, but that's just my opinion

[aulos]

Here is the old Walrus Skip done by Flynn: Link.

Also I think Bass' idea kinda describes mine, as the +1/-1 adjacent blocks are the boundaries of the "Area".

And I'm okay with the Flame Fountain Skip. I mean, maybe the yellow thing can be disturbing compared to ceilings, but let's just say ceilings are ceilings and normally unreachable walking tiles themselves.

[oseabass]

I am ok with making the yellow in the previous post all red and off limits.  Either that or making the cave ceiling yellow as well.  As long as we are consistent.  I think the more important thing REGARDLESS of walking on cave ceilings or not, is the restriction to not transition/exit a screen from within a red area anyway.  We are at this point figuring out a small tweak to the rule, which is the argument of:

1. Allow Flame Skip Skip and D4 Early skip.
2. Don't allow either.

I think it is safe to say they are combined together at this point in terms of rules stuff.

[Flynn]

I personally would not allow either. Although at the moment this is based on being against early d4. I havent put a ton of thought into it but instinctively i do not like flame skip 2.

Typing on a phone fucking sucks.

[captain_mop]

With this new ruling, would the new rooster skip be allowed? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqZC3yZJPkQ

[Flynn]

I believe the last jump that lands link on the ceiling tile beside the cracked ground would render this trick illegal, but could be wrong and have not slept for a very long time so i will defer and wait for seabass.

[Drenn]

I personally don't have a problem with walking on the ceiling in d4 or the alternate flame skip, aside from how we're going to word them in the rules. If you allow screen transitions in the "yellow" zone (flame skip), how will you prevent people from transitioning in cave ceilings (old walrus skip)? It would probably be easier to just mark them as red zones, in the interest of not complicating the definition further than it is already...

[Rapid_]

Yes, I would see it a good idea to mark the ceiling red as marking it yellow would bring controversy regarding all ceilings. However if we were to mark them yellow, we could say that Link cannot transition screens while within such zones which should allow for even more non game-breaking tricks(and a super RNG based walrus skip like before )

[LoenP]

So, without speaking for anyone but just seeing the progression of the thread and seeing discussions in skype and chats on this it seems fairly sure that way a large portion is leaning towards something resembling flynn/aullos/seabass' proposed rulesets. This would also very likely legalize Walrus Skip as OoB within screens wouldn't be a thing anymore and I do agree with Drenn in that if you want to argue towards outlawing it doing it on the basis of targeting the despawn glitch is the way to go from here on.

But the main thing I wanted to ask is given all these being allowed, does anyone feel at this point assuming SJs + WS are in, that a legacy category may be warranted? The current route with all of this is beginning to look very, very different from runs of the past even as recent as giuocob's 1:14:33. Is a split here justified? This would be the most significant change LADX has had in all all the time I've been playing, and I've been here for 1.5 years.

[SurrealGuy]

I wouldnt mind keeping the old route or the even older one with Kanalet Castle as a legacy% (and/or create a glitchless route).
For the new route, I would ditch the OoB term completely and just call it warpless% (like LA and allow everything that would be allowed in LA).
I think Leon said, that "OoB" on the screen itself doesnt matter anymore, so that would allow the alternate rooster skip, early D4 and the superjump that lands in a wall i found in D6.

My suggestion: Keep the old category and just make this one a bit more different/broken.

[ZorlaxSeven]

But the main thing I wanted to ask is given all these being allowed, does anyone feel at this point assuming SJs + WS are in, that a legacy category may be warranted? ... Is a split here justified?

As much as I may or may not want a legacy%, I have no clue we can just create one like this. To me, a true "legacy" category would have Kanalet Castle.

Something.

[captain_mop]

If we used tompa's definition of wrong warp (no transition between one cave/dungeon to another cave/dungeon), we could just get rid of oob. the categories could look something like:

Nosqww: new category allowing super jumps, flameskip 2, new rooster skip, early d4, but ban old walrus skip.
Nosqwwoob: current category stays the same.
Any% No doghouse: what the current no ww route is.
Any%: unchanged

As much as I may or may not want a legacy%, I have no clue we can just create one like this. To me, a true "legacy" category would have Kanalet Castle.

I agree.

[oseabass]

With this new ruling, would the new rooster skip be allowed? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqZC3yZJPkQ

To Quote Flynn:
I believe the last jump that lands link on the ceiling tile beside the cracked ground would render this trick illegal...


This is correct.  It is legal up until link jumps on the ceiling tile and moves around there.

[oseabass]

I don't know how I feel about the idea of a Legacy% yet.  There is some merit the the run at this current state seems very "clean", but then again something about super jumps don't seem that "broken".  I think we go without Legacy% for now, as it will clearly split the community up a lot more then it already is based on the recent findings of Walrus Skip (new) and Super Jumps.  I think as a game we are progressing with finding new tricks and they are great.  I think this is what speedrunning should be, finding stuff, isolating it, perfecting it, using it to beat the game faster.  If we start splitting categories more, what category would the weekly races be?  Would most people start running the new rule set, or stick to Legacy% cus they are used to it?

The super jumps really don't break that much or shave off an insane amount of time.  I think they add a nice flair to the game that the main category has been almost lacking.  A lot of people have shown interest in the game because of these jumps and I think new tricks bring people in... they shouldn't scare people off.  Things change.  Games evolve.  Runs evolve.  People had to learn and adjust to stuff in the past and most of us were not here for the (I speak for a decent chunk of us who have joined within the past year or so).  Fast times are still fast without these skips.  Z's 109 is still insane skill, and even if I shave off a few minutes with SJs I am barely touching his time.  These are easy jumps, not RNG dependent, not crazy skill... just a nice new movement set that we are learning to adapt into the run.

I'll go back to what I have been saying: the jumps in their current rule set (no old walrus skip, no new rooster skip, no early d4) don't seem Out of Bounds using an old outdated term.  Bring in these super jumps, allow new walrus skip, call it Any % No SQ/WW/OoB, run the game, evolve, learn, chill, have fun.

-Bass

[LoenP]

I'd actually love that definition of a legacy category even more. Rooster Skip, D4 sequence break maybe. No Richard Skip, bring back trade sequence. Maybe the old rule of no deaths (So buying the shovel?)

I've been wanting and privately planning on toying around with doing runs like this at some point for a while, which was what the route was when I first joined and I miss some of the things you did in it that simply aren't seen in any other run (Trade sequence, 'good' ending, Kamelot)