Super Jumping (Big Ups)

[Disclude]

"not allowed to do a screen transition between any 2 spots that shouldn't be connected". However if we did that, villa skip would pretty much be gone... it would solve the problem of the more game-breaking super jumps though.

That's along the lines that I was thinking. I came to the same realization for villa skip. I dunno if there's a way around that..the only thing I can think of it that it's not walking in a wall at all, which more so lends it self to the OoB rule...I'd love to find a way to do it without getting rid of villa skip, just so it doesn't screw over normal runs..Argh, run rule definitions are a pain @.@

[aulos]

Okay so I'm going to try to define something new, I am sorry if my English is too poor for that kind of thing. Anyway:

What does (should) mean an Out of Bound in this game? Standing or walking on pixels we should not be able to reach within the intended restrictions of the game. This game allows us to walk in certain solid objects by three pixels or less, and this annoys us because of new tricks found, aka Walrus skip, Super Jumping. It even gives us troubles about the Villa Skip. Also, a lot of people want to change the term/principle of OoBs.

I might be completely wrong, but this, even if Link stands in a wall by more than three pixels let me think about something: should we really turn a run down because of this?

That's why I suggest to replace Out of Bounds by something like Out of Area (yeah I know it's pretty much the same word).

What would be the restrictions of an OoA then ? Well, that would allow every movement possibility within a room by only considering the very walls, but without being able to go to another screen through walls, and consequently by walking on ceilings.

That would for instance allow the D6 Nightmare Key Super Jump but disallow the one to the Boss room. Here is an example. Red tiles being tiles through which you cannot screen transition. Also this would mean no old Marin Skip and no old Frog Song skip.

As far as I thought about it, that would allow most of the Super Jumps Flynn showed in his video, but disallow others like the fast D4 Nightmare Key showed in Emura's video.

If I'm completely out of it, well, just tell me   Also if someone likes the idea, any help would be great to redefine it correctly!

Much love <3

[Drenn]

I do like that idea aullos. From the options presented so far I think that would work best for our purposes. I'm not entirely sure how to put this into words though, the image seems to describe the concept better. As I understand it, cave ceilings would be off-limits, which means we can't do the shaq jump to reach d4 faster?

Maybe something like "no out of area / out of bounds means you cannot clip past the outermost boundaries of any given room". I dunno, the image still describes the concept better.

The accompanying "no wrong warp" definition can be much the same as it is now - simply restricting doghouse, screenwarping, etc, without an additional restriction saying where you can or cannot screen transition.

[LoenP]

This isn't a rules post (I'll make one in a bit) but I think I noticed something that allows the Super Jump to work and may narrow down figuring out the reason for why and how this glitch is caused? The one thing I have noticed is that of the three items that you're able to utilize this with (Sword, Magic Rod, Bow) they have the common trait in allowing link to change the direction he's facing while in a jump, which is something that with any other item, or without using any item, is disallowed. Something about this may mess with the collision detection of the game when in dungeon areas? I know people were into looking into why this only occurs in dungeons and cave networks and not in the overworld, so maybe this will help?

I'm bad a hunting and solving glitch things so if this is a dumb observation let me know.

Here's where I explain and demonstrate idk if this will be useful to anyone - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRUSVsW6a1E&feature=youtu.be

[LoenP]

I really, really, really like Aullos' description and idea of OoB. Maybe add a caveat to better explain disallowing using OoB that let's you transition in to a screen from another that wasn't intended?

This is a really poor way to explain what I'm trying to describe, all I'm trying to say is I really like Aullos' definition.

EDIT: Anyway I was originally posting to say that I feel a more narrow definition of superjumps and where they lay might be deserved since I feel the trick is very, very versatile and needs to be defined in a way that isn't 'a super jump is a super jump.' The trick can be utilized to shave anywhere from over half an hour (the previous No WW category used by rapid and leafeonz) or likely around just a minute depending on the scope of your definition and usage and that a break up of different classes of definitions may be warranted here. That's just my thoughts, though.

[Drenn]

This isn't a rules post (I'll make one in a bit) but I think I noticed something that allows the Super Jump to work and may narrow down figuring out the reason for why and how this glitch is caused? The one thing I have noticed is that of the three items that you're able to utilize this with (Sword, Magic Rod, Bow) they have the common trait in allowing link to change the direction he's facing while in a jump, which is something that with any other item, or without using any item, is disallowed. Something about this may mess with the collision detection of the game when in dungeon areas? I know people were into looking into why this only occurs in dungeons and cave networks and not in the overworld, so maybe this will help?

I'm bad a hunting and solving glitch things so if this is a dumb observation let me know.

Here's where I explain and demonstrate idk if this will be useful to anyone - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRUSVsW6a1E&feature=youtu.be

Does the super jump not work in overworld areas? If this is the case, I think the reason would just be because of the types of tiles the game uses. Super jumping works when you do it off of a tile which you can jump down from. The overworld does have some tiles like this, but they work differently. They trigger a different kind of falling state, a la villa skip. So this is probably why it doesn't work in the overworld...

Upon further examination, though, I've found a place where it works in the overworld. That cliff near dungeon 3. It's the same kind of tile as is used in underground sections. It's just not used very often in the overworld.

[aulos]

I have to say caves give me a bit of trouble. I do hesitate between this and this.

I guess my first thought was "can't walk on ceilings" since in my opinion those walls are the "outermost boundaries".

What do you think about it ?

[LoenP]

I'm completely fine with image 1 as running through my mind the cave systems in the game and ways the jump can be used I can't think of anything that would be an issue, since the main thing we have issues with would be using that super jump to transition while on top of the ceiling which you have covered. If it's being used merely as a way to bypass obstacles on that screen and then hop back down (without transitioning), I'm fine with it.

That's my take on it anyway, as I feel cave ceilings are a tricky area to decide on.

[Drenn]

I have to say caves give me a bit of trouble. I do hesitate between this and this.

I guess my first thought was "can't walk on ceilings" since in my opinion those walls are the "outermost boundaries".

What do you think about it ?

I think the second one makes more sense. I think the walls count as the outermost boundaries, even if they aren't very far out but then you don't have to use my wording. I understand that walking on cave ceilings may not be a big deal, as long as you don't transition afterwards, but the first image just feels like an arbitrary line to draw to me.

[aulos]

the first image just feels like an arbitrary line to draw to me.

I intended more to clarify the idea of "don't go to another screen by there" than "you can't walk on these very tiles".

[Drenn]

I intended more to clarify the idea of "don't go to another screen by there" than "you can't walk on these very tiles".

Okay, fair enough... In this case it starts to look like my previous idea for "no wrong warp" where you can't transition between 2 spots that shouldn't be connected. Not quite the same, however, because I think this way would allow villa skip... perhaps the wording would look something like "can't do a screen transition while outside of normal game boundaries". I still like the idea of image 2 better, but maybe that's just because I have a better grasp on what the rules would look like in that case.

Also I think I just realized how they patched super jumping. You know how you can jump down a cliff while in midair? They don't let you do that in v1.2. That's how they fixed it. Did they know? :O

[aulos]

Just to clarify the idea: click here.

it starts to look like my previous idea for "no wrong warp" where you can't transition between 2 spots that shouldn't be connected.

I think the main difference is from the way of doing it. Your idea forbids screen transitions like the D8 to Egg one, as mine forbids the specific ones as in the picture or the Shaq Jump before Flame Fountain.

[Drenn]

How's this for super jumping http://www.twitch.tv/drenn_thew/c/6364090

[LoenP]

made a comparison vid of the ones people have found for DX that may or may not be ruled to be illegal.

https://youtu.be/Jcjw8YwWTIs

[Riddler]

Just to clarify the idea: click here.

I think the main difference is from the way of doing it. Your idea forbids screen transitions like the D8 to Egg one, as mine forbids the specific ones as in the picture or the Shaq Jump before Flame Fountain.

I find that this picture says "Let's bend the rules in this specific place because it'll be faster" I personally do not feel that superjumping onto the ceilings in caves should be allowed, as you stated "You cannot exit the bounds of the room you are in" as "OoA".

My opinion is that you should not be able to exit the main bounds of the screen (cannot go completely over walls that have no real ground on the adjacent side[like the one in d6]) This is a tricky subject to figure out and that's why we have to define OoB :p