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I'm sure many of you know this route by now, but I'm posting it anyway, and I'll probably give updates here.

Updated route as of (10/15/09):

Segment 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuKXGmN9ii4)
-Just a save

Segment 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soAUdrXpAEA)
-Get sword and 20 rupees
-Save

Segment 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KHFJH7KK2I)
-Escape forest with water jumpslash ESS
-Get Ocarina
-Backwalk to Hylia
-Learn Scarecrow's song
-Go to pond to get Gold scale
-Ruto Bottle
-Show to King Zora
-Save

Segment 4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PLpZEfT7Ho)
-Escape forest again
-Backwalk to market bridge
-40 rupees from chains
-DoT skip
-Save


Segment 5 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPe7kcIzqug)
-Go to Kakariko
-Get pocket egg
-Pause (1) and pick up bug in graveyard (equipped are bugs on C-L, bombs C-D, and ocarina C-R)
-Get Hylian Shield
-Poe trick to open grave faster
-Dampe's Race
-Hookshot
-Pause (2) and equip hookshot and shield then save (equipped are hookshot on C-L, bombs C-D, and ocarina C-R)

Segment 6 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8swNxgBdsQ)
-To Hylia
-Learn Scarecrow song
-Play song to get to fishing pond
-Steal rod and go to water near lab and pause (3) to equip bugs and save. (equipped are hookshot on C-L, bugs on C-D, bombs on C-R)

Note: Bombs must be on C-R now to do Bomb RBA in the next segment.

Segment 7:
-Leave the market area and the dark sky area outside of the castle
-Drop bugs, pick them back up
-Backwalk a little so when you drop them you don't lose them in the dirt.
-Backflip and do Bottle B trick
-Recatch bugs and you've done RBA bomb slot.
-Wait for daylight
-Enter Kakariko
-Pause (4) and equip pocket cucco (hookshot C-L, bombs C-D, pocket cucco C-R).
-Drop and catch bugs again in bottle B for pocket cucco RBA.
-Wake up Talon
-Get Cojiro
-Drop and catch bugs again in bottle B for Cojiro RBA.
-With these 3 RBA moves you now have bomb bag, quiver, black gauntlets, bomb drops will appear, and a bigger wallet I think
-Go to bushes around tree, and throw just 1 (maybe 2?) for a bomb drop (5 bombs)
-Backwalk superslide to Lost Woods (4 bombs)
-Pressure jump to get off bridge and hookshot up to see old man (3 bombs)
-Exchange Cojiro for mushroom
-Backwalk through LW
-Pull out bomb and blow up 3 bushes to get another bomb drop (2 bombs + 5 = 7 bombs)
-Blow up rocks in GC warp (6 bombs)
-Hookshot out of Goron City
-Down DM and enter Kakariko
-Buy 10 arrows
-Roof trick to old hag, exchange mushroom for potion and pause (6) to save.

Segment 8:
-Leave market
-Backwalk superslide to Lost Woods bridge with an ESS thrown in (5 bombs)
-Pressure jump to get off bridge and hookshot up to see kokiri (4 bombs)
-Exchange potion for saw
-Superslide through Lost Woods (3 bombs)
-Bomb the 3 bushes for another bomb drop (2 bombs + 5 = 7 bombs)
-Warp to Goron City and hookshot out
-Backwalk around corner to rocks
-Blow up one rock (6 bombs)
-SS through falling rocks (5 bombs)
-Climb to top
-Bomb Fairy wall (4 bombs)
-Pause (7), equip bugs (it has to go over hookshot on C-L, we need to keep bombs [C-D] and we need to RBA the C-R saw)
-Drop bugs, do quick bottle B and re-equip bugs too. This will have done RBA on Saw to get Zelda's Lullaby.
-You have bottle in your hand. So do OI with a bomb (3 bombs) to play ZL and get magic.
-Pause (8 ) and save.

Segment 9:
-You've got bugs on C-L, bombs on C-D, and Saw on C-R
-Leave market, superslide to Gerudo, ESS around corner, and do SS to loading zone (1 bombs) [may have to end the ESS a little early to get this consistently.]
-Pause (9). Put hookshot over BOMBS (Bugs C-L, Hookshot C-D, Saw C-R)
-Hookshot across gerudo bridge
-Exchange Saw for broken knife.
-Drop bugs and do quick bottle B again
-Pause (10) and save

Segment 10:
-Light arrow cutscene will start immediately because you did RBA for medallions
-This will reset the bombs and ocarina on C-D and C-R, leaving C-L blank.
-Pause (11), equip light arrow on C-L, and save in tower

Segment 11:
-Use last bomb on beamos to get 5 more (5 bombs)
-Quick trial skip with bomb staircase (3 bombs)
-Pause (12) and save.

Segment 12:
-Scale tower, at final staircase superslide/ESS combo to top (2 bomb)
-Defeat Dorf single cycle with crouch stabs
-Escape
-SS to Ganon to keep Master Sword (0-1 bombs)
-Win

I tested the light arrow cutscene thing and yes, it resets to nuts bombs and ocarina and also keeps the count of the bombs. so yay!

I believe the items reset if you do not have the Master Sword in your inventory at the time of the cutscene.

That makes sense. And I was doing a lot of testing already today with the bombs and it worked for me too. That saves a pause or two I think.

I did the bomb tests today. First, here are 7 and 8 split and 7 and 8 combined: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4iWp9cet5c (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4iWp9cet5c)

And here are the bomb tests I did: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ac0D9NNc5E (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ac0D9NNc5E)

I found them to be within +/- 2 seconds (technically the 5 less bombs is about 1.3 seconds faster). That would assume I execute all of those superslides just like I did here.

So I'm leaning towards combining 7 and 8 instead of doing the 5 extra superslides.

Let me know if I made any mistakes here or if there is something I overlooked, or what you think about that idea. I know the 5 extra superslide route would look way more badass, but it'd be way tougher and in the end if it doesn't save time it's not really worth it.

first, for the extra bombs, you are already angled correctly, press Z and backrun to the grass. Maybe do a reverse roll out of it and into a grab on one of the bushes. You also lost about 3 seconds from ESSing early when crossing hyrule field. The split can't possibly be worth it though.

Don't split it, backrun to the bushes, grab the bomb (1 bush) and then drop a bomb, grab another bush w/ bombs and then superslide off the bomb and ESS it. Then do a ESS -> SS our into HF and whatnot. Or SS to near where the back end of the skulltula house is and then ESS over near the ledge (not very much ESS at all really but a time saver of a second probably). Then backflip off the ledge, and backwalk SS over to the exit.

Then you get extra bombs and it doesn't cost 13 which puts you way far ahead of the split... though it makes it harder cuz you have to execute after the bomb drops.

Extra bombs: Yeah that would have saved a second or so to the first few bushes. Your angle won't always be correct though, it depends on where you talk to the Cucco lady.

ESS across hyrule field: I have to start the ESS early there, or that little black slope kills your superslide. ESS can cross it but SS can't.

That last part wouldn't be so bad but the bombs are so rare. I had to use a ton of savestates just to get those first two bomb drops to appear. People were saying when I was discussing this last time that 2 bomb drops in 3 bushes was like, a 1/1000+ shot or some crazy odds like that (I would actually like to know what the odds are but it would be hard to test that). So I just don't think it's likely to be able to pull a 2 bomb drop in 2 bushes, and then have to do 2 backwalk superslides in that segment and manipulate another bomb drop in the Lost Woods.

In seg 10 could you do rba before hookshotting across the bridge?  This way you could use the pause method for quick B bottle without it costing any time since you need to equip hookshot anyway.

Unfortunately, I need to get the broken knife and then RBA for the medallions.

To get the hookshot back I'm going to have to pause 2 times; once to just get the item screen on the pause menu and then another time to actually equip it. What I was thinking of possibly doing, if that segment is tough, would be to leave the ToT and do the quick bottle B trick where I then pause and put hookshot over the empty bottle (bugs are now in bottle B). Then when I finally get across the bridge, I would already have bugs in my B bottle, and I'd just have to drop them and catch them again. This would cost about 5 seconds so I'd want to see how hard the bottle B trick is to get..and how hard the gerudo bridge hookshot is too.

I love your dedication, good luck finishing this.

quick bottle B? it's a real easy trick. The timing is pretty simple and easy.

I believe you Acryte, I've just never put in much effort in practicing it yet since I haven't had to. That's comforting to know.

I rewrote the route to reflect all the new stuff. Samoht also posted something on SDA that I had forgotten; we can use our last bomb on a beamos in the trials to get 5 more. That will let me use 2 extra superslides outside of the tower, and also let me do the SS up the stairs, AND even have an extra one for Ganon. I'm totally convinced that's the best way now. I save the 13 seconds by combining 7 and 8 and I really only lose 2 very small superslides out of it.

As for where those 2 extra will go. I was already planning on doing the rockslide one, since it's got a ton of N64 lag. I also added the DM around the corner one and the one to Gerudo. Those 3 were the biggest time savers. I may swap one of them with the LW superslide, since that did save 2 seconds and was much easier to execute (the ESS -> SS was 4 seconds saved and the DM corner was 3.2 seconds). We'll see. Maybe I can start the ESS, lift the bomb, but then go into backwalk once I get the correct angle and have a higher success rate.

wait rockslide? you mean when you go to get magic? I surely hope you are gonna seamwalk and SS from there to the part where you backflip onto the other part of the mountain, back run up that and then head down and blow up the entrance because the seam can be done 100% if you know how to do it, and I'm sure it saves like 20 seconds lol. believe me.

Here's some tips to up your consistency and quickness on the seam. Sorry for being so slow in the vid but I was on a keyboard -_-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqGrGYAGaTc

The vid helps but this picture will REALLY help:
http://s28.photobucket.com/albums/c238/Acryte/?action=view&current=Seamhelp.jpg

You'll notice from the pic and the vid that the 1st way is the easiest to get the perfect spacing, the 2nd way is the fastest and easiest to set up because you don't have to get real close, just have it centered in your feet and get the angle (make sure its still centered in your feet after if you didn't come in with a decent angle to begin with) and then run up. The last way is harder because you have to get boosted and not activate the boulders which is kinda luck based since its finicky, but its a bit easier to have the perfect angle because when you are on the seam you can be 100% sure that you have it lined up between your legs correctly.

Notice though that in the 1st 2 vids, when I have the perfect angle, when I leave C-up the very left edge of the B button TRACES along the very edge of the seam. That's how you know its good. If you know the spacing though for your distance away from the seam (aka how zoomed in it is so how much space you need) then you can just run up without seeing it trace the edge.

Isn't it ALOT easier to kill Dorf via quickspins then well timed crouch stab? 


I got it my first try using quickspins

Yes, but its slower because crouch stabs with jumpslash power does 4 damage each and quickspins only 2 each.

shit runnerguy. There is another seam trick in DM. IDK how much time it saves but I think it saved a decent amount. For use in Segment 7, I'll make a vid real quick sir and edit it into this post.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkwI33b5moY

once again tho it may prove to be too difficult in a long ass segment for it to be work the trouble. Also megaflips are not workin out it seems.

Shit wait im a noob nm im sure you just backflip down and SS lol

Yeah, I backflip off from where the bombflower is and just backwalk to beat the boulder. I think when I tested a superslide there the slope right off the bat is too steep, and by the time you'd get off that slope then it's not really worth it, plus the boulder would be in the way a lot of the time I think.

I'm going to try streaming this again today. I tested it Wednesday and it seemed like the quality was at least watchable.

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/oot-practice (http://www.ustream.tv/channel/oot-practice)

It's not actually practice but I'm too lazy to change the name. I'll be recording segment 5.

I'm going to start in a few minutes, try and play for an hour or so (2 PM - 3 PM EST) and then maybe again from 6 PM - 8PM EST. If I get a successful segment I'll keep going and try segment 6 since it's easy.

segment 9 will be hell

I think segment 7 is going to be the worst.

I completed segment 5 tonight but I don't know if I want to move on or try and improve it. The Dampe race was 49 and I want to get at least a 48 and even 47 is possible. Plus AKA and Acryte were teaming up to make the exit to hyrule field faster, so I'm not sure.

Maybe I'll upload it and see what kind of reaction it gets?

You'll just get the youtube suck-ups saying "omg awesome".  Set it to private so only we can see it and we'll judge.

if you have even a stitch of doubt, you should redo or you might regret it.

Besides, when you ease up on your criteria, you typically are more likely to allow worse upcoming segments.

imo

I improved it today by about half a second. Still a 49 on the Dampe race, but I just can't see me going much faster. Apart from maybe a half a second lose getting into the hylian shield grave, the segment is smooth.

Also, from what I found out yesterday...the segment 5 that had been done when I was streaming had lagged behind a bit on the RECORDING part several times during the segment. So for the future I'm probably not going to stream since it's not worth the risk of losing a great segment just from it jumping or lagging.

I'm going to put this one up on youtube and move on.

*stares at Runnerguys Signature*

What is this i don't even-

I'm sure you already tested this, but would it be faster to combine segments 3 and 4?

oh and i think found a little timesaver in ganon's castle for this run. I'll upload a vid tomorrow so you can see.

It is alot slower to combine. We would have to listen to either Kaepora of go down ZD, through ZR, then to castle.

Yeah, it has been tested to be slower. Looking forward to the trick in Ganon's Castle though.

I updated the route again and added the segments in that I have now completed.

I'm actually not as bad as I thought as I was at the backwalk superslides, and I've figured out a good strategy for the first one from Hyrule to Lost Woods. The sloped hill levels out and there is about 3 backwalk steps that are level on it. I've got it timed so that that is where I roll into the bomb. It costs about a second since I wait a little bit to actually pull out the bomb, but it has seriously improved my success from next to nothing to about 1/3 on that trick already.

nevermind, it definately wouldn't save time, due to an oversight on my part >_>

Hey guys,

If you are bored and want to try something out for me, check out this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oP3Msu12xT4).

Basically, I'm trying to get a position and angle where I can just sidehop and then mash the hookshot button, and end up right on the edge of the post and be able to get to the other side.

As you can see I got very close for the red dot to appear, but it's just not quite enough. I've tried adjusting my position a little and still couldn't find a spot, but it seems likely that it's possible. This would make this segment a lot easier, so even if it takes a few seconds like this did to align and get in the position, it's definitely worth it.

This is 2 segments away, so it won't apply for a while, but I figured I'd post it now if anyone wanted to try it.

what was the timesaver in ganon's castle?

hmm, seems like the closest i can get is to latch on to the bridge but fall off using your method

Edit: hold on, it might actually work..

Edit2: Ok, i seemed to have made it using your method. It only shows from the hookshot aiming at the wall to the bridge skip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0FFO4gISOA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0FFO4gISOA)

Here's my method I came up with, maybe you guys can mess around with it and prevent from having to do the "turn-around" trick.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fFBATYmfco

did you actually get it to work though? >_>

I'm very out of practice with the turn-around trick, I'll leave it to Runnerguy or someone else to do :P

hi there
didn't read here for quite some time; runnerguy will you stream more 'oot practise'? if yes please announce it, would love to watch ;-)

Sure I can announce the next time I do that. It will always just be practice though since it was making the recording lag since I use a capture card. So no real attempts.

press z, pause immediately afterwards and hold back

thats an easy way to do it

I didn't test this, but if you didn't actually get to the other side, how can you be sure this works? Remember the goal isn't to safely land on the edge of the post, it's to land on the pixel where you can make it across (the pixel you normally would get to with the turn-around trick.

You definately have the right idea, though. It would be so much more consistent if you found an area near there that puts you on the pixel so that you don't have to mash hookshot.

And wouldn't quickspins cause more lag?

No, not really.

Heh, yeah my guess would be no one would really want to do it.  ::)

So I did some basic estimates, let me know if this looks on par:

Segment 1:
Opening Scene: 2 seconds

Segment 2:
Sword: 75 seconds (1:15), taken from my run to the sword.

Segment 3:
Shield: 52 seconds, taken from my old run

Segment 4:
Forest escape including owl text (bridge clip method is fastest since ocarina loses it's main purpose): 124 seconds (2:04), taken from an old test I did with the bridge clip.
To Zora's River: 29 seconds (no need for peahat superslide in such a tough segment, plus time saved is so small even if performed perfectly). I took this from an old run of mine.
Slash bushes for rupees, rock clip, get bean: 47 seconds, taken from pokey's vid, and added 7 seconds for bush slashes and set up of HESS + another 5 seconds if more rupees from rocks are needed (which is likely).
Scale river, get the 20 rupee near the octo, you'll need cucco as well: 1:00, taken from my old run + 5 seconds to get the red rupee.
Diving game to ruto bottle: 2:15, tested this myself, picked up the blue rupee near the shop on the way back up (+30 rupees - 5 from the jar and 25 for winning the diving game).
Bottle to King: 1:43
King to owl (plant bean too), to market, get 60 from bridge, DoT: 3:03, I timed this myself, this will give you 90 rupees and you can buy hylian shield
DoT Skip and become adult: 6:10, from my current run.

WE BECOME ADULT AT ~19:39

Compared to my current run at 17:06.

It takes 2:50 from pocket cucco to hookshot, including getting the hylian shield. So after 5 segments...

New way: 19:39 + whatever in segment 5 to pocket cucco
Current way: 17:06 + 2:50 + whatever in segment 5 to pocket cucco

So that's 19:56 currently and 19:39 hookshot skip way. This is after 5 segments.

~*ALL OF THE FOLLOWING IS JUST ESTIMATES*~

You will become an adult with between 10 and 19 rupees. You need 50 to fish, buy arrows, and buy deku stick. This will take a few seconds to get the red rupee by the Big Poe guy twice.

Now, assuming the play is on GCN, that means the next 3 segments (my 6, 7, and 8 ) must be combined. A deku stick must also be collected for segment 9.

That almost certainly means only one bomb drop for cube. Honestly, I'm crazy for trying to get as many bomb drops as I am...there's no way this 12 or 15 or however long it is minute segment is going to be able to do it...no way.

The cube must use the bombs in:
1) GC warp (unless you want to go back through Hyrule, but even then it's a megaflip)
2) rock on Death Mountain
3) fairy fountain explosion
4) megaflip gerudo bridge (ISG can be done on sign)
5) beamos for more bombs

Just off the top of my head:
2 superslides across hyrule: 10 seconds each
2 pressure jumps: 10 seconds each
SS from hyrule to Gerudo: about 15 seconds?
A few other smaller superslides probably add up to 10 seconds
No hookshot in Goron City: 10 seconds twice
No hookshot climb fence quickly in Kokiri forest: 10 seconds twice
buying the deku stick: 15 seconds? Even more if you have to sit through the text
You save 17 seconds from fisherman text being faster...you probably also don't lose the 20 seconds the savewarp gives since you will get to the fishing pond quicker and you may be able to get back to Kakariko before daylight (if not then it's even more time lost).

= +20 +20 +15 +10 +20 +20 +15 -17 = 1:43 added to the cube run through segment 9 (getting all the medallions). After this the runs converge. Each will have light arrows and should have one bomb left to blow up the beamos and get more.

GCN slower by 1:26 according to these calculations. Give it 30 seconds of lag in the last segment and it's still nearly a minute slower.

Someone will have to prove this incorrect (which is entirely possible) or find gerudo bridge skip no ISG on a console (good luck since a lot of TAS guys couldn't even do it with their TAS abilities). Otherwise, I'm continuing my run.

Wasn't the only bridge skip video done without ISG on console?

Kazooie's had this one for a while:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuDcK_3bPAM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuDcK_3bPAM)

But you might be right, KlydeStorm never said I just assumed from the graphics on his video. It's possible he just used savestates for ease of starting the trick again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EU27ZETHNjo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EU27ZETHNjo)

EDIT: You are right, I asked and he said it was just savestates to get the position.

It's going to be really close in my opinion. The first part up to adult is the same. So that's an edge of about 17 seconds for the hookshot skip method, plus another 17 seconds for the fast fisherman text. It will then lose 20 seconds for hookshot in Goron City twice and probably 15 seconds for climbing the ladder after pressure jump twice. You will gain a little from not having to play the ocarina although that's only a few seconds. Same with catching a bug, only you'd lose that couple. That's going to make it +/- 5 to 10 seconds either way. Not to mention that segment 4 is hell...bridge clip, rock clip, lots of shit and then end with DoT skip. I think it's still going to be best to continue with my current run.

What are everyone's thoughts on that?

I think you should stick with your current route, that stuff sounds very iffy and could end up being a huge pain for just a second saved, or possibly even slower. Even so, I think it would be nice if someone would do a "sloppy" TAS on that new route to see what kind of time it gets. By sloppy I mean mimic what a human speedrunner would be capable of.

Either way I don't think it will save much time... not enough to scrap your run(which is going awesome btw).

On console it would probably save barely any time at all.  We want the run done eventually and I'm sure you don't want to do that hellish seg 4 so just continue with your run right now.  For TAS though I'm sure its faster.

Yeah seems like both are pretty much the same on console. And since segment 4 would be hell you wouldn't be able to optimize it as well as you can in your current run. So it probably would come out slower than what you are doing at the moment. So keep on doing what you are doing. ^^

well, i did some timing/calculations, and i actually found out that, if you could manipulate 2 bomb drops in the hookshot skip route on vc, it'd actually be around 30 seconds faster than the current route. Here are the corrections I found:


-Going through Goron City without the hookshot only wastes 6 seconds each time (not 10 like RG said)
-If you do the pressure jump, not having hookshot to climb the ladder only wastes 2 seconds (maybe less)

So here's what I figure:

Starting after pocket cucco segment with 19:39 on the clock, you would go to the fishing pond to steal the rod, then get sticks on B through the ladder on the way to kakariko (rather than using water). Even if you don't make it to kakariko before day, it still takes 30 seconds to go from ToT to hyrule field anyway, so as long as you make it to kakariko within 30 seconds after daylight, you're fine.

Now for the bomb drops. Since you would manipulate 2 bomb drops in this segment anyway, and stealing the rod doesn't take that long, you would probably manipulate 2 bomb drops in the combined 6, 7, and 8. This means that the only time-wasters would be lacking the hookshot in LW and GC, as well as time wasted buying the deku stick (probably not 15 seconds, i'd have to time that). So even assuming it does waste 15 seconds, you still have this:

6+6+2+2+15-17=14 seconds lost. This means that, since you gain 17 seconds by skipping hookshot, you would save 3 seconds by skipping hookshot even with these subtractions. I'm not sure how much time the smaller superslides waste, I'd have to test that as well. But for our purposes we'll assume it is 10 seconds, so you would lose 7 seconds by skipping hookshot.

BUT, since the run would have to be on VC (since non-isg megaflip bridge skip is impossibly hard on console), you would gain 30+ seconds in the final segment (probably more because VC lags less than GC in the last seg). This means that overall, skipping hookshot and playing on VC gains you around 25 seconds (even more if the smaller superslides + deku stick collection don't actually waste as much time as we think they will).

However, I still think RG should continue with his run. 25 seconds isn't that much time, and I'm sure RG doesn't want to have to restart the entire thing and do that hellish seg 4 after all he's been through.

If anyone sees any errors in my calculations above please let me know.

That seems off... hookshotting the ladder correctly gets you right to the top and you actually don't even have to climb the ladder at all (RG did it wrong in his "meh seg 7"). At least 4-6 seconds difference I would think.

yeah i think it is 4 seconds then.

I stand by 10 seconds after having just compared my "meh seg 7" vid to going through GC as Child Link in my old segment 12. It took 12 seconds from my explosion to exiting to get out with hookshot. It took Child Link 22 seconds. The difference here between child and adult is minimal, unless there is a ledge somewhere adult link can climb that I'm missing.

Climbing the ladder has already been determined to take longer than 2 seconds.

Good luck manipulating 2 bomb drops. I think you are really underestimating how long this takes and by saying "steal rod doesn't take that long". Yes, it does. It means you aren't even going to have a chance at the bomb drops until after 6 minutes of gameplay. I get a chance every 3 minutes and went about 4 hours and got 2 bomb drops twice.  And if you think, even with the 5 extra bomb drops, that you are going to hit 4 superslides (probably save one for gerudo valley segment) in a 14 minute segment after having the extreme luck manipulation you had...it's just not going to happen. If you miss one not only did you lose the time on the superslide, but the time it took to set up.

well i never said it would be an easy segment. actually i just found out that you can manipulate 2 bomb drops from the second set of bushes alone, which takes away the 10 seconds lost by not having 3 bomb drops. it would be very hard, but it's possible.

Only if you are able to hit 5/5 with whatever you are using those bombs for in a 14 minute segment, along with the other 8 or so bombs you'd have to use in the segment as well. And that's even assuming you go for one bomb drop and then get 2 out of the bushes in LW, something that's probably < 1/100 chance of happening. It's not going to happen. "Very hard" doesn't begin to describe it.

The TAS of this game is also possible, there's a reason it's a TAS though.

yeah you have a point there - that whole segment would be basically luck-manipulation which would probably take weeks to do.

damn, why did nintendo have to make the vc version 1.2 instead of 1.0 D:

blame the muslims and the guys who complained about the red blood.

ok, well i managed to get non-isg megaflip bridge skip on console the other day, so i did some calculations with the bean route on n64:

as it turns out, it's around 30 seconds faster to go down zora's river than to talk to the owl if you're getting gold scale. so after getting pocket cucco, we have (estimated):


19:09 for bean route
19:56 for hookshot route


so already bean route is about 47 seconds faster than hookshot method. now let's take into account the next seg:

it takes around 10 seconds to talk to the scarecrow, play the song twice, and watch the scarecrow coming out of the ground cutscene. this means that's 10 seconds of wasted time (since the game clock doesn't tick during those 10 seconds, so you can't use them to wait until dawn). take into account the 17 seconds saved from the faster fisherman text, and now we have 1 minute and 14 seconds advantage for the bean route.

only thing left is the lack of hookshot in goron city and lost woods. since megaflipping back onto the bridge, then going to kakariko through hyrule field is about the same as hookshotting through goron city, you would obviously do that to avoid wasting 10 seconds. so that means you only waste the 10 seconds in gc once (1 minute and 4 seconds for bean route over hookshot route).

now for the ladder. it wastes ~5 seconds to not have hookshot to climb the ladder, and that will happen twice. so that's another 10 seconds (54 seconds for bean route).

even though the non-isg megaflip bridge skip will have to be buffered even in a segmented run (believe me, it's hard enough already without having to jerk the control stick from down-left to down-right and press a both on the same frame, which is WAY harder than it sounds since it has to be JUST the right frame), it'll still be around the same speed as doing the hookshot method (maybe faster). so i'm gonna say bean route is around 50 seconds faster than hookshot route.

i'd still recommend rg to continue with his run (seriously, he's going through enough already with seg 7 and i'm sure he doesn't want to do that hellish seg 4), but this would be an interesting run for someone to tackle sometime in the future (i'm already making plans for it :D)

ING, dude, where are you getting this from? If you personally haven't tested it, then I just can't take your word for it.

Time it took from after King's text to right outside DoT (using Zora's River): 2:47 (I even fudged this down since it would be slightly faster than my mock run of it on a speedrun) assuming it's daylight and I collect 40 rupees on chains
Time it takes from after King's text (using owl): 3:03 also assuming daylight.

Don't know where the 30 seconds is coming from OR where the gold scale is coming from...I thought it was silver scale that was collected? Actually, you are definitely confusing something in this route...because:
Which only happens if you DON'T get the gold scale.

AND even if it does take off 30 seconds...you still have to plant the bean. On the way to the owl? No problem, it's a 5 second detour. From the ruto bottle? Quite a detour, it takes ~25 seconds to go out, plant it, and get back in the water.

lol, you completely misunderstood my post XD

mrgrunz tested this, and said that if you get the silver scale (which you do in this route), it saves 30 seconds to go down the river compared to talking to the owl. if you get the gold scale (which you DON'T in this route), it only saves around 10 seconds.

edit: hm i guess i made a typo in my last post. i typed gold scale when i meant to type silver :P

So when is the bean planted?

right after getting ruto bottle.

Right, and that takes 25 seconds extra than it would from the owl way. Do you see what I mean or not?

hm, i think grunz took that into account when he timed the owl vs the river. i would ask him about it, he probably knows more than i do about this whole thing.

This is why I still believe cucco bottle with bean route is fastest.

nvm, I did some rough timing and silver scale route definitely looks fastest.

ING, Grunz is timing TAS techniques. You have to time it as though speedrunner were actually doing it. Megaflip off stalchild into water and out for a HESS, shit like that. That's not happening in a 15 minute segment with a bunch of hard tricks already.

ZFG, post your rough timing, I want to see what your estimates look like compared to mine.

Ok now I realized I timed something wrong again in the silver scale route and it looks slowest again.  Here are my calculations, I'm sure I messed something up but it sure looks like silver scale is out

silver scale route

kokiri to zr - ?:??
to bean - 0:27
to zd - 0:45
to silver scale and to ruto bottle - 1:55
plant bean 0:20
giving letter to after cs - 1:23
leave zd - 0:23
zr to castle - 1:10

total - 6:23 + ?:?? (22?) - 6:45


kakariko - zr

kokiri to kakariko - 0:30
cucco collecting to exit kv - 2:25
to zr - 0:20
bean - 0:23
leave zr - 0:10
to lh - ?:??
plant bean - 0:25
to owl to castle - 1:10

total - 5:23 + ?:?? (1:00?) - 6:23


zr - kakariko

kokiri to zr - ?:??
to bean - 0:27
leave zr - 0:10
to kakariko - 0:20
cucco collecting to exit kv - 2:25
to lh - 0:56
plant bean - 0:25
to owl to castle - 1:10

total - 5:55 + ?:?? (25?) - 6:20

no rg, grunz said that with tas techniques it would be nearly a minute faster. 30 seconds is without tas techniques. just go ask him yourself.

Then the question to ask is how much time do you lose because you have to wait for daylight?

Or, instead of all these theoretical questions, someone could take another groobotube type demo and do it and see.

sounds like a plan, rg. :) i would do that myself, but unfortunately my usb controller adapter is a piece of horse shit and doesn't work properly, so my only option would be to use a keyboard (which... i'm definitely not doing). hopefully someone else will do it and find out exactly how much time the bean route does save in the long run. :)

Ing do a TAS without slowdown or frame advance (unless to execute hard tricks), and save states. That's what groobo did I believe.

uh, what part of "i don't have a usb controller adapter that works properly" didn't you understand the first time <.<

TAS's don't use any type of controller, you use a TAS input plug-in that only uses the mouse. It's quite easy to use actually.

but that plugin requires using frame advance...

He said "do a TAS". Of course he wants you to use FA. >_>

Ya man, just make it TAS but do it to the abilities of a console runner like me. Doesn't require a USB joystick. The point is just to get a good comparison.

BEAN ROUTE TEST RESULTS:
Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwJn0dUeY8Q) (up to Ruto Bottle)
Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NzL6NEvB7c) (Zora's River vs Owl)
Part 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOGNf8ewu_4) (Market, buy shield, DoT)

Conclusion:

Segment 4's final time: 17:50
Total Time as a child: 19:54

VS

Current method: 19:56 (adding in after pocket cucco to hookshot save)

These both do not include time to get pocket cucco in segment 5, but that's the same anyway.

SO: Bean Route is 2 seconds quicker. Give it another 17 seconds for faster fisherman text and 10 seconds from not having to talk to scarecrows. That's 29 seconds faster.

BUT: Then it will lose 5 seconds twice from not being able to hookshot after pressure jump. It will also lose time going through Goron City the second time, which is a loss of 10 seconds. It will also be down 3 bombs (2 for extra megaflip and superslide, and another for the gerudo bridge megaflip). That's three less superslides, so taking my weakest 3 superslides that's about 2 + 4 + 3 = 9 seconds. That's -29 seconds.

So + 29 and - 29...or, in otherwords. THE TWO ROUTES ARE NEARLY IDENTICAL FOR A CONSOLE PLAYER!!!! So I will continue with my current run, because this segment 4 is crazy hard.

good thing you don't have to restart.

hm, that doesn't quite sound right somehow. are you sure you did all that right? last i checked the total time as child should be around 19:39 if you take the owl route, so the bean route should still be ~15 seconds faster for a console player.

and how is talking to the owl actually faster? zfg timed both routes and it ended up being 10 seconds faster to go down zora's river. something seems very wrong here.

If you don't believe it, then do it for yourself and see. Where are you even getting your 19:39? That's my old estimate lol. But I've done my test and there are no "estimates" here, it's all real testing. So I don't care what anyone says, they'd have to show a vid of it done faster for me to even look at this again.

It only seems wrong because it is a result you did not expect. Again, do it for yourself and see.

hm, well the only thing inaccurate i can see in your timing is that you took WAY too long to set up the rock clip. there's a strat to set it up that takes like 2 seconds that i discovered. you took about 10 seconds longer than i do to set up the rock clip.

so in that case, even if your calculations are correct (which i think they are actually), the bean route can still save around 10 seconds on console (maybe even more since the megaflip bridge skip is probably a bit faster than hookshot bridge skip). still not enough for you to have to restart your run, but i'm still going to keep going with my run on the bean route. who knows, maybe i'll finish before the end of 2010 :P

True, I was aware of this and decided to take my time with that trick, since I most likely would in a console run too, especially one of this length. Additionally, the clip through the rocks seemed a bit slow. There were a few spots where I savestated and it makes it a bit slower too.

Naturally in a segment of a length of 17:50, even 10 seconds of mistakes is not that much. If the "true" length is 17:40, then a 17:50 is great. You'd be hard pressed to not have 10 seconds of errors.

Good luck with your run if you do this. Maybe you'll get segment 4 before the end of 2010. I know I wouldn't, lol.

Well, since this bean route appears to be no faster than the current any% route I'm just going to do MST segmented instead. I don't feel like doing that hellish segment anyway. ^_^

Ing, can you test the MST segged route before you go along with it? I already know of a minor bomb-route mistake in it (forgetting to allocate bombs for ground jumps in SFM), but I want to hear if there is more before fixing it. My route is near the bottom of the MST segged topic.

Also keep in mind that you have to play on GC, since without bottle, the DC oob hover saves a significant ammount of time. If you don't play on GC, just tell me and I can fix up the route and use those bombs/chus elsewhere.

well i've played through the mst segged route before, and i didn't really see any problems. obviously i'll play on gc, but i'm not doing ess forest escape (it doesn't save all that much time anyway), and i'll probably have to take some time to get used to gc again before i start the run.

The main issue is bomb counts, the route should be solid itself. It is just way too easy to forget to allocate a bomb somewhere, and you don't want to be stuck needing 2 bombs in a place with no nearby drops.

Also, has anyone ever tested the megaflip into explosion trick for the DC hover? It may reduce one bomb there, which would save a few seconds.

hm, idk, but let's continue this conversation in the mst seg'd topic as not to derail this one.

Aww, come on. I love watching topics get derailed.

Ok, well I recently came to the conclusion that the bean route is potentially ~10 seconds faster if we can luck-manipulate 2 bomb drops from the grass in segment 8 (therefore cancelling out the 3-bomb disadvantage). The question is if this is feasible.

In segment 7, we already have to luck-manipulate 2 bomb drops, and getting that right is such an unlikely event that RG only got it right twice in 4 hours of playing. Manipulating 2 bomb drops here from the same set of grass, then getting the magic quick text (which is a frame perfect trick), AND hitting that lag-filled superslide through the falling rocks doesn't seem feasible in any console run.

What do you guys think?

I got 3 bomb drops off the graveyard grass.


Get wrecked. BTW,


BEANS

I've had 5 drop before.

oh snap aleck burnt you zero

D:

I'm talking about the grass in LW, not the graveyard -.-

Why couldn't you get 5 bomb dropd from those 3 bushes? Step yo game up.

Well, even if bean route is faster it's still not worth it because of the megaflip bridge skip non-isg (which isn't worth it in ANY console run). So hookshot route is still the way to go.

SHUT UP ING

BEANS

*runs and hides*

Alright bros, in order of importance here:

1) Can the gerudo bridge megaflip be done in a run? Ing is the only one who says he's done it on a console. Even if it needs pause buffered, this is #1 imo because everything else in this post relies on this being done to skip the hookshot. If it can't be done then I continue with the current route.

2) Is the tektike hover at all feasible in a run? Didn't Pokey say he did this at least one time? Even if this is hellishly hard, if some kind of method could be done (even like 1% of the time it works) then it's worth it. If it takes 5 or 10 or 50 hours it's worth it. The segment is so easy otherwise and it doesn't even matter how long it takes since you have to wait for dawn in the next segment anyway.

If that's possible, then great. Route is decided easily. Don't get chus, skip hookshot, do this trick.

If it's not possible, then:

3) Is the botw chu route faster? Lots of testing needs to be done here...odd mush as child or not, etc. Additionally, can a console runner even get to the market before dark. I think it's possible but haven't tested it yet so that plays a factor as well.

I'm still working on my computer issues but I should be pretty much back to normal by next week. I'll then go through some tests and stuff but these are the big questions right now.

Keep in mind I may have to restart anyway because my recording method is now going to change with a different computer and different capture card. It would be odd to have 6 segments look one way and then rest look another way. So I don't even know what's gonna happen with that if I do continue with the current route.

timesaver??:

don't buy arrows.

when you get light arrows, bottle dupe them

right past the boss door in ganon's castle, break the pot with arrows.

if you get lucky, a stalfos might drop arrows so you don't even need to break the pot.

not sure if this beats walking into the store and buying the arrow.

All this mess makes me want to start a segmented RBA run so much. I am aching to do a segmented OoT speedrun. At this rate it's going to take a year before Runnerguy is done. And since the route seems it may be changing anyway, I see no harm in doing my own segmented run for SDA until Runnerguy completes his.

I'm a bit torn on what to do here. I guess I have the right to do my own run, but I don't want to feel like I'm dissing runnerguy or taking away from his work and dedication in this category. He is the best speedrunner I know but his progress is quite slow and I enjoy the RBA route just as much as he does. I wouldn't mind if my run only stayed up for a few months even, I just don't want people to think that 2:26 is the fastest the game can be done on console for a whole other year. This run would take me no more than a few months I would think (a segment a week is the plan hopefully).


If you have a single bit of dislike with this idea I won't even mention it again Runnerguy, I would like for it to be fully OK with you in every way. Otherwise I would feel wrong about it. I'd prefer to do any%, but if not I could work on MST seg although it's such a long run and I am notoriously impatient.

You're run is truly going to be an amazing landmark for OoT any% for a long time, but I'd like to give it a shot as well and show what I can do as a personal best. Yep.


Bottom line: I want to do a segmented any% run of my own, but not if it's going to discourage your efforts at all. I want you to finish your speedrun, however long it takes you.

you should jump on the single-segment bandwagon

well, only if you like mushrooms and superslide teleports :P

I'm not that great at single segment. I think my RTA efforts show that :P. Segmented is my forte'.

Alec don't feel bad about giving someone competition. Do whatever run you want to do.

Yeah man, definitely go for it. Competition is good, it makes all runs better. It's actually been depressing that no one else has really tried this category since Kazooie did 5 segments way back when.

I might try later.
Yeah I have done it once.
Definitely not possible, I tried it and didn't even make it to the little bridge before night happened. Maybe if you peahat slide -> ess owl skip but I highly doubt it.

Sweet. Definitely gonna start a Segmented Any% run as soon as I get the "OK" from SDA on my capture/submission methods.

Sorry Runnerguy I think I am gonna start this as a side project. Don't worry it won't be good and I won't submit to SDA unless I somehow get like 58 minutes which is unlikely. I am doing this for RingRush's challenge so I am not trying to take the run over.

I guess segment 2 would look like segment 2 from the MST seg't. 21 rupees and sword.

In segment 2 where would I get 19 rupees???

Is there a route with botw chus and hookshot skip yet?

I would still like to see the gerudo bridge megaflip done on a console since it has yet to be done yet and the entire route depends on it.

Segment 3 would get these 19:
-2 from grass
-5 behind house
-2 from grass
-5 from stones
-5 from shop

The route is basically then do bridge clip, get to kakariko, collect cuccos, botw chus, dot skip (with segments where appropriate)

Adult is the same but get egg and savewarp, then chu sideflips to pond to steal rod. Then it's the same, just mix the chus in (I think one less bomb drop is possible but can't remember). After getting mush though you'll come back through hyrule though to avoid the hookshot stuff in gc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnnVyxehkNI


Gogo RG

I have a question about this route.

You end segment 7 with a Bottle of bugs on B. In segment 8 you say to do Quick B bottle. When I saved with bugs on b and loaded the file it reverted the B button to the master sword. So how do you stop it from doing that?

Play on version 1.0 and you'll have sticks on B instead of sword.

Ugh thats dumb I only have 1.2.

Tektite hover/megaflip to the pond on console:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leuJdhyYQww

*Nudges Runnerguy*

Ugh. So that saves at least 2 minutes in a run with only 30 or so minutes of gameplay. Needs to be done.

Route is basically the same but no botw so don't split that segment, get bottle and go adult. I will need rupees to buy a shield somehow though. Where should I get up to 80? I can go back to getting 20 with sword...there's 20 in the grotto if I use that for cucco collecting, and then 40 from chains. But then I'm short 20 for the pond. So 20 from the one pot in poe hunter room. I will split 4 and 5 (4 will just get pocket egg) since I can't HESS to pond. Then 5 is pond segment which I will probaby take like 3 or 4 attempts on steal rod if necessary lol. Then it's normal again and back to getting a shit ton of bombs.

Sorry man :(

anything to get well under the sub lol.

RG is a trooper :)