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Author Topic: BiT Research Topic  (Read 234765 times)
TestRunner
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« Reply #300 on: April 10, 2012, 11:05:35 PM »

I still don't think Hero mode is NG+. The fact that treasures carry over doesn't affect the run very much. If can find a way to make all the files during the run, it's not NG+, it would be completely legitimate in an RTA. Basically that means that someone would need to find a way to get light tower CS to happen before you actually unlock it.
NG+ would be loading data from other files. So you could open skykeep and light tower early. You'd still need to play through most of the game (get arrows). TBH, it actually doesn't sound that bad, since you play most of the game and skip the boring parts. You could even skip the sail cloth.
A duped file run would be to go straight to demise, since you just have the file start at the last save before him, making it about a 10 minute run.
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Abahbob
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« Reply #301 on: April 11, 2012, 12:42:15 AM »

Screw this talk. We can argue about NG+, but in reality, we don't do RTA that isn't hero mode, so there is no NG+. Anything new with CS early stuff?
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CloudMax
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« Reply #302 on: April 11, 2012, 07:54:45 AM »

It is possible to get skykeep early by loading data from a file that have unlocked the stone of trials.
You have a file with stone of trials unlocked.
Now just like with light tower early you have to save at a same prompt while playing through the game.
After saving, activate BiT and BiTSave over the file with stone of trials unlocked. This will give you stone of trials during BiT.
Now go to the statue where you insert the stone. Load the file that saved at a save prompt and then insert the stone when the screen is fading out.
Just like with the light tower early, you will load the file and activate the cutscene.

This should work with all cutscenes that you can activate during BiT.
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TestRunner
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« Reply #303 on: April 11, 2012, 12:50:49 PM »

It is possible to start the opening thunderhead CS before it is unlocked on any file. I can provide a vid if you want. If we can find a way to load that CS on a file... But more importantly I feel as though this shows that it is possible to start CS in BiT before they are unlocked. Maybe it is possible to find a way to start the opening Light Tower CS early too. Although this may be just the crazy workings of BiT and one big dead end :/

Dunno if this was known or not.
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CloudMax
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« Reply #304 on: April 11, 2012, 01:01:14 PM »

It is possible to start the opening thunderhead CS before it is unlocked on any file. I can provide a vid if you want. If we can find a way to load that CS on a file... But more importantly I feel as though this shows that it is possible to start CS in BiT before they are unlocked. Maybe it is possible to find a way to start the opening Light Tower CS early too. Although this may be just the crazy workings of BiT and one big dead end :/

Dunno if this was known or not.

Yes, I know that it is possible. Just save in deep woods after opening the entrance to skyview temple and you'll trigger the thunderhead CS whenever you select that file during BiT. (There is already a theory out there for why this happens, and it seems to be pretty solid)

And I noticed something that could ruin the theory about being able to start any cutscene by loading a file at the same time.
I think the reason it worked with skykeep is because it actually seem to load a new scene when you trigger it. The screen fades out, just like it does when you enter a loading zone. So it may not be possible to do this with any cutscene after all.

So, even if we can trigger some cutscenes without having actually unlocked them on any file, we may not be able to actually load them on a file, and only in BiT.

Also, has someone been able to load skyloft with the skykeep entrance present during BiT? I do not care if you can reach it or not, I just want to know if someone has been able to load that skyloft at all, like during the night or w/e. Trying to watch the skykeep cutscene during BiT will just crash the console, so that's a no go. And I haven't been able to enter Night Skyloft during BiT with a file that have skykeep unlocked selected.
If so, how?

Also, watching the Skykeep cutscene on a file apparently unlocks Stone of Trials.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2012, 01:12:57 PM by CloudMax » Logged

TestRunner
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« Reply #305 on: April 11, 2012, 01:16:03 PM »

Btw, I got it to work while I was in Earth Temple. It triggered when you load data from a file in BiT and then select and cancel a bird statue. Or you could do it many the other ways; like push a the box roll into the tree, open the graveyard, etc. I am not really sure if it would go anywhere, since it doesn't load a new area like in Skykeep. But we did manage to load CS before they happen. So I'll probably work on one of two things. Either find a way to load the thunderhead CS onto files, or start the Early Light Tower CS early.

I don't have a file at that point, so I can't test the skykeep in night BiT. There are so many things that seem to affect what happens and whether it crashes or not. Not sure if it's just the fact that skykeep is open is what's crashing or if there is something else. New files will crash, and the file I had in Earth Temple crashed, but my new 0-char file did not crash.
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CloudMax
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« Reply #306 on: April 11, 2012, 01:45:19 PM »

Btw, I got it to work while I was in Earth Temple. It triggered when you load data from a file in BiT and then select and cancel a bird statue. Or you could do it many the other ways; like push a the box roll into the tree, open the graveyard, etc. I am not really sure if it would go anywhere, since it doesn't load a new area like in Skykeep. But we did manage to load CS before they happen. So I'll probably work on one of two things. Either find a way to load the thunderhead CS onto files, or start the Early Light Tower CS early.

I don't have a file at that point, so I can't test the skykeep in night BiT. There are so many things that seem to affect what happens and whether it crashes or not. Not sure if it's just the fact that skykeep is open is what's crashing or if there is something else. New files will crash, and the file I had in Earth Temple crashed, but my new 0-char file did not crash.

A clean BiT file will not crash if you have it selected and exit a house during the night. A 100% file that have saved outside of fire sanctuary doesn't seem to crash either (works for both me and kazooie). Anyway, the fact that we're able to load cutscenes before actually unlocking them on a file has been known for a long time (and we both know that), and we can't seem to use them to actually transfer the data over to a file, which sucks... I think it'll only work with cutscenes that have transitions.

Also, I did some testing and I think that I accessed night skyloft during the day, or something. It is messed up anyway.
The file had skykeep unlocked early, it was on a file that had just saved the loftwing. But when I accessed this weird skyloft skykeep wasn't present (but the statue was facing skykeep as if it was unlocked, and the stone was inserted).
There were torches all over skyloft, and they were lighted up, as if it was night.
No NPCs present. There was however a bat outside of the goddess statue entrance.
The bars blocking the goddess statue were spawned.
It basically looks like I am in the Fi Night Escort, but it is day. Kinda messed up.

Edit: after looking around further I'm pretty sure that I'm in the Fi Escort, but it is day. Exactly the same actors are loaded. It is so weird that it is day though.

Edit2: I entered and exited a house. The game now thinks that I've finished the ceremony.
If I try to enter the sky I start to fly around fake skyloft. I can't dismount from the loftwing because I haven't unlocked the ability to do so yet. (what many don't know is that you unlock this & Fi when you insert the first stone tablet)
I also have access to the loftwing training by flying into the loading zone (this is possible until you've inserted the first stone tablet. After inserting the first tablet, the regular loading zones that takes you to the sky appears.)
After accessing the training again the game goes back to thinking that I haven't won the race yet. (and the race will trigger)

Edit3: I managed to unlock light columns early, but it requires files that have already unlocked the tablet pieces.
I noticed some interesting stuff when doing this. If you do not activate the first tablet piece first (and start with the 2nd one for example), when you insert the piece, the game will act as if it was the first piece after the red light column has activated and you'll start the cutscene that takes you to the academy. HOWEVER, the cutscene's bugged. Fi and the fat guy isn't there and the camera get stuck under the ground and it seemed like nothing was happening for like half a minute, after that i decided to skip the cutscene and it properly took me to the save prompt. Everyone wil act as if you're about to leave skyloft, even though you activated the red column.
Only the red column was activated after this since you used the 2nd tablet piece.
I went back there and attempted to insert the 1st piece. The 3rd piece spawned when I tried to insert the 1st one while the 2nd one was already inserted. The green column spawned and no cutscene started after that. The 3rd tablet piece is also gone. Links sound's also muted. You could hear the sword and such, but links voice was gone. (it probably changed to the bokoblin soundset just like it did with the statue wrong warp I found. I could not test the fall damage sound though, so I can't confirm this).

Being able to unlock columns early means that it is possible to skip the skyview and earth temple bosses. And being able to skip the earth temple boss means that we just have to grab the bomb bag and then leave.

We could actually go and get mitts & bombs before skyview temple. I do not think this'd be useful unless we find a trick that requires bombs though, since we have to get slingshot first, or the game will just softlock when you get an item.
And you can't use the Hook Beetle unless you have the regular beetle, which sucks. If the regular beetle wasn't required we could just have skipped skyview temple entirely.

I'll see if I can upload some videos tonight. My brother's currently playing Sc2 on the computer that I use for recording...
« Last Edit: April 11, 2012, 04:04:24 PM by CloudMax » Logged

Kazooie
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« Reply #307 on: April 11, 2012, 06:09:04 PM »

Great stuff you have there guys! Sadly all of those tricks is not allowed in speedrun and races which sucks. I read all new posts and didn't understand much. Video would make much more sense if somebody can upload some. I really wanna understand this thing Smiley
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TestRunner
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« Reply #308 on: April 11, 2012, 06:43:18 PM »

That day thing is weird, but then again so is BiT. Like when you activate the opening thunderhead CS in bit night, it turns day halfway through the CS. I can't walk around to see what changed, since you get soft locked.

Looking forward to that vid of the early Light pillar, sounds awesome. NG+ runs seem to be getting more and more interesting to me. You would only need to beat AC and SK. It's a shame you'd still need Gust Bellows for that SK room. I wonder if we could do something interesting with the Emerald pillar early. Cause then that would be legit in a non-NG+ run, since it takes only about 4 minutes to place the tablet. My guess is no, but we'll see.
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CloudMax
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« Reply #309 on: April 12, 2012, 06:00:11 PM »

Quote
CloudMax: err. Now I'm confused. I was going to record the early light column trick and stumbled across a problem... 1. I can't seem to raise the damn pillar that you insert the stone into anymore. It won't go up when I use the skyward strike on the emblem.
CloudMax: Hmh.. I managed to raise it by first selecting my 100% file (this triggers the Fi conversation), and then select a file that have raised the pillar, before the conversation is over. this swill make the pillar raise. But doing it this way would mean that we only can perform one early light column in a run, since one file would have to be a file close to the end of the game where all tablets is already inserted. Can't seem to figure out how I managed to do it yesterday. <.<'

I'm in a bit of trouble..

So I can't seem to figure out how I raised the pillar yesterday. Now I have to use a file that's quite far into the game to trigger the Fi conversation in the Goddess Statue and then select a file that hasn't come quite far into the game yet (any file that haven't inserted the 3rd tablet yet seem to work) during the Fi conversation to make it raise.
Not only that, it seems like this removes my tablet pieces during BiT so that I can't insert them anymore. This is a problem. The solution I came up with for this is to kill myself with bombs so that the room is reloaded and I get the pieces back. This works, sure.

So, all this works, but there's a problem with it..
It requires a file that have inserted all 3 tablet pieces already, which means that we only can perform one early light column per run.
And it also requires bombs so that you can kill yourself, which means that we only can do it for the 3rd light column... It is the one that saves the most time, but unless I can figure out how I managed to get the pillar out of the floor without my 100% file, we won't be able to perform it on the 2nd column. :S

This is what I do now:
I save at a save prompt on the file that I want to get early light column on.
Start BiT
Enter the goddess statue with the file that have all 3 tablet pieces selected.
Select my 100% file to trigger the Fi conversation.
Select the file with the 3 tablet pieces and when the Fi conversation finishes, the pillar raises from the floor.
I now pull out bombs to kill myself while the file with all 3 tablets is selected.
I choose continue. I now have all 3 tablet pieces.
I insert the tablet piece and wait until link have inserted the tablet piece and stands still, then count to 3, and load the file I want to get early light column on.

This sucks because I have to kill myself AND it requires a file that have already inserted all 3 pieces...

I'll make a video of it anyway and hopefully I'll be able to figure this out...

Edit: Inserting the 1st tablet piece after the 3rd one will crash the game/console. It didn't crash when I did the same thing with the 2nd piece instead of the 3rd one yesterday.

Edit2: Screw everything I said about needing a file that had inserted all 3 tablets, blah blah blah. It is obviously related to the area where the file has saved, just like when you trigger cutscenes in Skyloft during BiT... Saving outside Fire Sanctuary (after finishing fire sanctuary) will trigger one of the Fi conversations when you select the file in the Goddess Statue.
I'll look more into this.

Edit3:
Early Light Column: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b96B-Rwgrlk
Fi Escort During Day (on any file): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Md8gBcPZR4E
Early Skykeep: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGab4Y-ykrU
« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 07:53:24 PM by CloudMax » Logged

ZFG
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« Reply #310 on: April 13, 2012, 01:21:06 AM »

Can you do thunderhead early right away and get the first song before the first trip to faron?  You won't have the harp so you couldn't do the trial first trip, but it could save a trip later on.
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« Reply #311 on: April 13, 2012, 03:34:45 AM »

Yes, I know that it is possible. Just save in deep woods after opening the entrance to skyview temple and you'll trigger the thunderhead CS whenever you select that file during BiT. (There is already a theory out there for why this happens, and it seems to be pretty solid)

What theory is that?
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Paraxade
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« Reply #312 on: April 13, 2012, 04:38:35 AM »

Just opened the thunderhead early without using a preexisting file... that means speedrun-legal. Play up til Skyview, open the door, then go back outside and save in Deep Woods. Do BiT, go to a bird statue, and activate it and select your file saved outside Skyview at the same time. Then save, and shortly after the "Saved." message pops up, load the file. When the file loads you'll find the Tower of Light raised and the thunderhead open. Pretty sweet. I'll get a vid up soon.

This seems sufficiently confusing enough that I'd rather not do any more SS attempts til we have the most optimal place to do this though <_< In case you don't have to be saved in Deep Woods right after opening Skyview.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2012, 04:47:25 AM by Paraxade » Logged
Pheenoh
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« Reply #313 on: April 13, 2012, 05:00:24 AM »

Just opened the thunderhead early without using a preexisting file... that means speedrun-legal. Play up til Skyview, open the door, then go back outside and save in Deep Woods. Do BiT, go to a bird statue, and activate it and select your file saved outside Skyview at the same time. Then save, and shortly after the "Saved." message pops up, load the file. When the file loads you'll find the Tower of Light raised and the thunderhead open. Pretty sweet. I'll get a vid up soon.

This seems sufficiently confusing enough that I'd rather not do any more SS attempts til we have the most optimal place to do this though <_< In case you don't have to be saved in Deep Woods right after opening Skyview.
Glad this was finally found. Having to load pre existing files is silly.
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ZFG
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« Reply #314 on: April 13, 2012, 05:10:01 AM »

Glad this was finally found. Having to load pre existing files is silly.
It's still only for the thunderhead though, the other cutscenes might still require another file.  Though this at least gives hope that the others might be possible too.
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I for one think that there are no glitches in OoT. It's just gameshark codes.

RBA stands for Rare Bird Adventure. We call it that because we need to get the blue cucco in order to use it.
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