Super Jumping (Big Ups)

[Rapid_]

SJs sure, noclips sure; I dont really care, I just want categories to change.

[greentunic]

Is it known that you can do super jumps off of walls without clipping in some areas?

It isn't consistent and I don't really understand why it sometimes works and sometimes doesn't.. but I made a quick vid to show:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTg0YUyOuPQ

[Rapid_]

Is it known that you can do super jumps off of walls without clipping in some areas?

It isn't consistent and I don't really understand why it sometimes works and sometimes doesn't.. but I made a quick vid to show:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTg0YUyOuPQ

It should be consistent as long as you do not walk diagonally(EmuraloZ says this in his video description), but wall clipping works regardless.

[Tompa]

Yes, Greentunic. It can also be done without the sword. When doing it without a wall, it depends more on the subpixels, which basically means the timing is more precise for how long you should hold backwards and when you should move forwards.

[greentunic]

Ah okay thanks for explaining Rapid and Tompa

I have looked at a few areas to try and make use of not having to be clipped but am yet to see anything that would save much time in a run.

[SurrealGuy]

We should finally settle this.
I'm saying yes to superjumps, no to the no clipping thing.
Although i'd love to see a run, where all of the new tech is allowed (walrus skip, SJs, walking on ceiling, no clipping etc as long as it doesnt wrong warp).

[Disclude]

I've stated my opinion here, and based on things I've read, and my own opinions, I vote yes for super jumps, and no for 'no clip' glitch; as of right now at least.

[Ulquiorra]

I vote YES for SJ's, NO for no-clips.

[friedpotato]

Hi everyone

Sorry to disrupt the voting, but I'd like to add my thoughts based on my reading of the superjump and rule change threads. Since the most recent discussion is in here, this is where I'm posting. Sorry, this is a little long...

To me, there are 4 obvious rulesets for All Instruments (which this category should really be called):
1) Doghouse
2) Warps allowed (+ OoB + sq)
3) OoB allowed (+ sq)
4) Warpless (no OoB, no sq)

These names are familiar, but I dont think the current "main category" fits any of them.

1) Doghouse - This category allows you to enter a state where Link doesn't interact with the tiles/sprites/game in a normal way. This category already exists as "any% (all instruments)".
2) Warps + OoB - This category lets you warp between dungeons and between unconnected areas of caves. Essentially you can move around wherever you want by getting OoB, but can't enter the broken doghouse state. Rapid's 1:04 run fits into this category. I also think no-clip fits here, as it also lets you move freely, but in the overworld. Screen warping LA also goes here.
3) OoB - This category is based on Tompa's post on warping from the other thread. Going OoB (like on the ceiling in caves) is okay here as long as you stay within the set of screens you are supposed to travel through (i.e. no warping). Getting to D4 through the tunnel is okay here, as is rooster-skip skip using superjumps. This is where superjumps, villa skip, and mirror shield skip 2.0 belong.
4) Warpless (no sq) - Here, you can't go where you're not supposed to go. This category could also be called legacy or maybe glitchless, I guess. No superjumps, no jesus jumps, no villa skip. I think wall clipping is okay here so moblin skip, mirror shield skip, rooster skip, turtle rock skip, and sideways block pushing can stay. I actually hope that we add deathless to this ruleset as well (i.e. buy the shovel) for true legacy%.

I think these rules add some consistency and, IMHO, give a good place for the various tricks to go. The problem is that the current "main category" lives between rulesets 3 and 4 (well, essentially a legal, but very unoptimized ruleset 3). However, I think it would be easy for runners to add a few new techniques (including s+q) to move into ruleset 3, or to drop some skips and move into ruleset 4. Hopefully people will do both, since the bulk of the game is similar

P.S. Any% only gets rulesets 1-2, since if you're not warping or doghouse-ing, you have to get all instruments to enter the egg and beat the game... right?

P.P.S 100% warpless would be pretty long... 100% as it currently stands could easily move into ruleset 3 by adding the same OoB and superjumps as AI. 100% warps + OoB would be really fun to route/play. 100% doghouse would be awful to route/play...

[Rapid_]

Hi everyone

Sorry to disrupt the voting, but I'd like to add my thoughts based on my reading of the superjump and rule change threads. Since the most recent discussion is in here, this is where I'm posting. Sorry, this is a little long...

To me, there are 4 obvious rulesets for All Instruments (which this category should really be called):
1) Doghouse
2) Warps allowed (+ OoB + sq)
3) OoB allowed (+ sq)
4) Warpless (no OoB, no sq)

These names are familiar, but I dont think the current "main category" fits any of them.

1) Doghouse - This category allows you to enter a state where Link doesn't interact with the tiles/sprites/game in a normal way. This category already exists as "any% (all instruments)".
2) Warps + OoB - This category lets you warp between dungeons and between unconnected areas of caves. Essentially you can move around wherever you want by getting OoB, but can't enter the broken doghouse state. Rapid's 1:04 run fits into this category. I also think no-clip fits here, as it also lets you move freely, but in the overworld. Screen warping LA also goes here.
3) OoB - This category is based on Tompa's post on warping from the other thread. Going OoB (like on the ceiling in caves) is okay here as long as you stay within the set of screens you are supposed to travel through (i.e. no warping). Getting to D4 through the tunnel is okay here, as is rooster-skip skip using superjumps. This is where superjumps, villa skip, and mirror shield skip 2.0 belong.
4) Warpless (no sq) - Here, you can't go where you're not supposed to go. This category could also be called legacy or maybe glitchless, I guess. No superjumps, no jesus jumps, no villa skip. I think wall clipping is okay here so moblin skip, mirror shield skip, rooster skip, turtle rock skip, and sideways block pushing can stay. I actually hope that we add deathless to this ruleset as well (i.e. buy the shovel) for true legacy%.

I think these rules add some consistency and, IMHO, give a good place for the various tricks to go. The problem is that the current "main category" lives between rulesets 3 and 4 (well, essentially a legal, but very unoptimized ruleset 3). However, I think it would be easy for runners to add a few new techniques (including s+q) to move into ruleset 3, or to drop some skips and move into ruleset 4. Hopefully people will do both, since the bulk of the game is similar

P.S. Any% only gets rulesets 1-2, since if you're not warping or doghouse-ing, you have to get all instruments to enter the egg and beat the game... right?

P.P.S 100% warpless would be pretty long... 100% as it currently stands could easily move into ruleset 3 by adding the same OoB and superjumps as AI. 100% warps + OoB would be really fun to route/play. 100% doghouse would be awful to route/play...

I like this. However if we were to use this, noclip should be banned entirely; any run with noclip(warps + oob, the only category I'd care about ) allowed would be unfun to route/run(you'd just go to d4/d8 and get most of the instruments pretty much :/)

[SurrealGuy]

I couldn't agree more with Friedpotato. Very good post imho! 

[friedpotato]

Thanks, SurrealGuy!

noclip should be banned entirely; any run with noclip(warps + oob, the only category I'd care about ) allowed would be unfun to route/run(you'd just go to d4/d8 and get most of the instruments pretty much :/)

I was thinking more about this, and I agree that no-clip doesn't belong in ruleset "(2) - Warps + OoB". I originally thought about a 5th ruleset between 1 and 2 for no-clip and screen warping, but I though having 5 would overdo it. To be completely honest, I know very little about screen warping in LA, so I just threw it in for completeness (sorry vanilla runners...).

So perhaps add rule: "(1.5) screen warps allowed - includes LA screen warp and LADX no-clip warping". I think both of these are similar in that they (kind of) allow you to ignore the in-game boundaries (walls) and roam free throughout the map. The rest of "(2) - warps + OoB" would be the same, but without these specific tricks.

I think that rulesets (1) and (1.5) would be relatively short runs, as you are not restricted by the game, and you would just run directly to all 8 instrument rooms and then the nightmares. I think these would be fun to route, but less fun to run. Rules (2)-(4) would be the most used, since you mostly have to obey in-game boundaries (i.e. can't walk through walls), and the only differences are restrictions on where you're allowed to go.

[LoenP]

I agree with the crux of what you're conveying and feel and like your idea of reforming rule names, and that the ladx ruleset has needed a better laid out way of saying "here are the tiers of glitches available in LADX" to be easily and effectively conveyed into logical categories by allowing/disallowing a combination of those on a basis of runner appeal and interest (with any% obv being any% no holds barred, however with how fast DHG is is unlikely to be replaced), and I think in the last few weeks despite how painful it has been at some points for some in the rules talks we've taken better strides toward that.

But most of the rules discussion going on in these past few weeks (months now??) has been specifically around trying to define ruleset 3 as this is the one that most impacts the main category as people are trying to find how best to fit them into the main category, and most are falling in behind the Aullos/Seabass ruleset which is a more narrow variant of Tompa's.

I like your ruleset which is formatted pretty well and logically and largely is how I internalized my idea on what the ladx ruleset should look like. I agree with it that the current main category is in a weird spot between 3 and 4 however I think there might be room and desire for something in between as I think there is a pretty large gap between what you have proposed (S+Q allowed, transitioning anywhere using SJs as long as it's intra-dungeon and No deaths, no S+Q, no villa skip).

Going by your ruleset for example the current main category is No S+Q, No OoB, No Warps, No Dog House (as super jumps as they exist in current main route have been defined as not Out of Bounds), and I think the difference between this route, your proposed ruleset 3 route, and ruleset 4 route is larger and less redundant than you think

[friedpotato]

Right, my goal to was to make as simple of a ruleset as possible, while trying to make as many people happy as possible... It seemed to me like a lot of the discussion/argument was based around where super jumps are/should be allowed, and what constitutes out of bounds. That's why I tried to include more absolute statements like "super jump wherever you want in the area" or "never go OoB" into the rules.

I tried to make the categories more rigid regarding boundaries in the game itself*, and less about runners' preferences. If people don't like that approach, I'm totally okay with it. If the rules end up being "do the things everyone likes", it will probably just cause minor headaches every so often as the community evolves.

Going by your ruleset for example the current main category is No S+Q, No OoB, No Warps, No Dog House (as super jumps as they exist in current main route have been defined as not Out of Bounds), and I think the difference between this route, your proposed ruleset 3 route, and ruleset 4 route is larger and less redundant than you think

I'm certainly not an expert on the various routes in the game (I've only been running for a year), so I agree that the current route, rules 3, and rules 4 could be very different, which is good! I don't think people would run/enjoy different categories if they overlap too much. And I'm also okay with "mixing it up" a bit

Again, though I prefer rules in my previous post, if we end up hashing out a more specific set of rules regarding no OoB, specific super jumps, etc. to be used in a single "main category", that's also good. As long as it's written down somewhere for current and future runners.

* For Tompa's approach to warping, I initially thought it should be defined as stay within a given sub-map. That works for the dungeons mostly, but the caves could still easily be broken. That's why I phrased it more like: stay within the screens that you're supposed to be on for the section you're in.

[friedpotato]

Maybe I'm just slow, but this exact same discussion seemed to happen behind the scenes 1.5 years ago, and "many of us" decided super jumping was banned...

There have been a lot of changes in the LADX scene recently, and records have been flying left and right. With the newest set of found tricks, some people are confused as to exactly what and what not should be allowed. So, many of us have gotten together and agreed on a new set of rules for the game, which will soon be reflected in the rules page. Here they are...

[...]

any% warpless is now rebranded as any% no oob.. For both games, this includes all the existing rules for warpless, as well as the following: "you may not clip through or jump over solid walls". This essentially bans any known use of the new ledge glitch, as all of those require jumping the wrong way over ledges to each out-of-bounds areas. In terms of already known tricks, this bans the walk-on-ceiling glitch in caves, the level 2 bracelet skip, and most forms of hookshot clipping (including frog song skip). It does NOT ban the tricks to enter and exit Richard's villa, as these only involve transitioning the screen over an area where a solid object exists and falling until Link reaches solid ground.

[...]

Based on this logic, I should just have defined my previous "ruleset 4" to be the same as the current category: Allow villa skip (since it's not technically OoB according to giu), and allow death to shopkeeper or death to refill hearts (just no death warping). Sorry, I just got too excited about warpless+deathless  ...

I disagree with adding limited superjumps that don't drop you OoB, but let you go through OoB to get there (D6, D8 boss room, dream shrine).

TL;DR of my last 4 posts:
I vote no for super jumps. We should put them in the OoB (no ww) rules, and leave the current "any% (no oob, no ww, no s+q)" route as is.