Super Jumping (Big Ups)

[LoenP]

I agree with Drenn, we have to have a concrete definition and examples of what is and isn't an out of bounds manoeuvre before continuing with rule discussion, in my opinion.

Clearly a wall clip (achieved by moving 3 pixels into a solid tile's outer edge) isn't an OoB.

I think we've all agreed when it was brought up again that the Richard Skip sequence isn't either, as by the game's logic you're simply jumping over a cliff and not actually clipping into or through objects. In that case, isn't the core principle of how Super Jumps work the same in this regard?

How about the clip into Turtle Rock?


How do we want to define OoB? Would (should) the current super jumps be considered OoB? I know there has been a lot of interest in Tompa's definition (and personally I like it a lot) of OoB being any manoeuvre that let's you travel from dungeons or cave systems that aren't meant to be connected (no going from d4->5, or going from tal tal heights cave right below Rooster Skip to the one above it, for example). This would keep much of the current main category the same, only changing strats and movements on a segmented basis, but not altering the route as a whole.

Maybe could open some interest in a no major glitches category or something similar, too  (would own to do Kamelot Castle again)

EDIT: There's also the potential of using Tompa's ruleset to differentiate two tiers or layers of 'oob' (pending a better name). The distinction being whether the trick transitions you to a dungeon or cave network that isn't supposed to be connected.

[Drenn]

The super jumping mechanics aren't quite the same as how villa skip works, though it's similar in that you're kind of... falling past the wall in question. Due to the nature of the super jump, though, there's no reason you can't land directly inside of a solid wall. In fact, a lot of the applications of the super jump work this way. In a lot of the applications in emura's video he screen transitions immediately afterwards, but still, I find it hard to justify being inside of a solid wall in a "no oob" category. At least, you are clipped more than 3 pixels into a wall in these cases.

I think the turtle rock clip is okay, because the turtle's hitbox doesn't actually extend upwards. It's the same as wall clipping past the flowers in goponga.

Btw, tompa didn't use the term OoB at all, he just called it wrong warping. As for how to define OoB, I still haven't seen a half-decent definition outside of "not allowed to clip more than 3 pixels into a wall".

Edit: looking over emura's video...
- d4 boss key, you land inside of a solid wall then screen transition down, triggering a falling state like in villa skip. It's the part where he lands in a solid wall which I find iffy.
- d5 boss key skip, you land inside of a solid wall, then screen transition
- d6 skips, in the first one you just land on a raised platform so probably okay... in the second, third and fourth ones, again, you land inside a solid wall

As cool as these are, I feel like you'd need a weird definition of OoB to accomodate for them. But correct me if I'm wrong.

[Disclude]

After trying a few of these out, the on in Ocarina Shrine, and D6 wouldn't be valid to me, as you land inside the wall, even though you can walk out, it is a WALL, and therefore I would find that out of bounds sadly, on top of my earlier thoughts on the one in D8 with the blocks still up from the crystal switch.

Going with your thoughts on that video drenn, the first one in d6 I would say is OoB as well, since there's no possible way to get on top of those raise platforms without this trick. No crystal switch around, and no way to fall on top of them through a pit else where in the dungeon.

There are still a few cool useful ones from Flynns video, like the D3 Dodongo skip, Getting the D8 boss key quickly, and skipping blaino(as long as you've lowered the blocks with the crystal switch) and the one that will let you skip the hookshot jump in D7. They all seem to land in clips, or sometimes not even clipped.

But yea, for out of bounds, to me it's still, not being inside of a wall, or space more than a 3 pixel clip  that you can't get in without a glitch or trick.

[Drenn]

Okay so we may have been talking about slightly different things, the applications in flynn's video mostly don't land inside solid walls. Though it still seems iffy in some cases, like for the jump in d3, it could be easy to land more than 3 pixels into the left wall without realizing it. Like with the dream shrine, this just feels like a weird situation. This was kinda the reason why my first thought was to say, doing these shaq jumps over walls counts as oob. But I think this can work even if it's a bit weird, and it seems like most people are in favor of this. Still, I dunno how we should deal with these cases.

I disagree about the raised platforms though, I don't think it makes a difference whether or not you're supposed to be able to get up there - it's walkable terrain.

[Disclude]

I disagree about the raised platforms though, I don't think it makes a difference whether or not you're supposed to be able to get up there - it's walkable terrain.

Yes, but when you're inside of a wall, you can "walk" out of it, therefore it is walkable terrain, so again, I have to disagree. You have more movement on top of it, but you can still walk while inside some walls that you get pushed inside or whatever. There's no way to get up there without this trick, so using that logic, this would also make the original "Shaq jump" to skip walrus allowable, because that ceiling is walkable, and you're not even going inside a wall, just doing a super jump up to it, so I don't like that mind set for any definition towards this rule set.

[Drenn]

Yes, but when you're inside of a wall, you can "walk" out of it, therefore it is walkable terrain, so again, I have to disagree. You have more movement on top of it, but you can still walk while inside some walls that you get pushed inside or whatever. There's no way to get up there without this trick, so using that logic, this would also make the original "Shaq jump" to skip walrus allowable, because that ceiling is walkable, and you're not even going inside a wall, just doing a super jump up to it, so I don't like that mind set for any definition towards this rule set.

Walls aren't walkable terrain, it's just that if you're clipped into them, you have a bit of leeway to move towards walkable terrain. On top of the platforms, you have a full range of movement, so it's walkable terrain. That's how I see it anyway.

Interesting point here: would the shaq jump to reach dungeon 4 faster be allowed? I wasn't thinking of it in the same terms as you seem to be. The ceiling is walkable terrain, but then doing a screen transition to do the other method of walrus skip can fall into the domain of "wrong warp". However I can also see the argument that the ceiling of the cave is out of bounds, in fact I think that's how it's been considered so far. Only thing is, it's not an exact perfect fit with the "clipping 3 pixels into a wall" definition which I think makes the most sense

So I guess an alternative is something like "not allowed to stand on a tile which can't be reached without the use of glitches" as you suggested...

[Disclude]

Yea, I feel like that ceiling is out of bounds. This is why I like the idea of out of bounds being you 'can't walk on any area that you can't normally walk on without the trick that's required to get there'; excluding the 3 pixel clip. This covers being in wall, going in the ceiling, going more than 3 pixels inside of a wall.

[SurrealGuy]

Walking on ceiling could count to OoB. But technically it is exactly the same as the superjump in Dream shrine or the early Big Key in D6. So I dont know how we should decide this. We should check what uses walking on ceiling has without screen transitioning from there (thatd most likely be a Wrong Warp).( Of course we can argue that the game didnt intend us to walk on a ceiling)

Does anyone know how the japanese community deals with superjumps and the OoB issue?

[Rapid_]

Does anyone know how the japanese community deals with superjumps and the OoB issue?

I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure they ban version specific tricks and this trick is 1.0 only I believe?
EDIT: here she is: http://forums.zeldaspeedruns.com/index.php?topic=1804.msg29565#msg29565

[Drenn]

I took a glance at the thread where the last rule change occured, and saw this:

any% warpless is now rebranded as any% no oob.. For both games, this includes all the existing rules for warpless, as well as the following: "you may not clip through or jump over solid walls".

Certainly seems like super jumping would be covered by that, but then again, we do seem to be on the verge of a ruleset change. Also this definitely was not expressed in the rules on the leaderboards... everywhere you look, oob has a different definition

I still, personally, feel like the super jump shouldn't be an allowed technique in the main category, but I don't care terribly much because I'm more interested in an OoB category which will probably exist soon. So if people want to allow these tricks in the main category, let's try to formalize this.



No Wrong Warping:
- Do not use glitches which manipulate screen transitions such that link spawns in the wrong destination.
- Do not transition directly between any 2 dungeons or cave systems that should not be connected on the map. (This may be redundant for the main category, but I'm trying to set up for a plain old "no wrong warp" category as well.)

- Glitches banned by this: screenwarping in LA, doghouse glitch, fisherman glitch, miniboss warps (such as d7 -> d8), going from one cave system to another.
- Maybe we can replace the first point just by a list of glitches which are banned, instead of using messy words.

No Out of Bounds:
- Link may not stand inside of a tile which cannot be reached without the use of glitches. In the case of wall tiles, this means that he may not be clipped more than 3 pixels into the tile in question (so wall clipping is allowed).

If we were to ban super jumping, that definition might instead look something like:
- Link may not jump over solid objects, or clip into them by more than 3 pixels.

^ This is going with the approach of banning any kind of movement through solid walls. So, there should be no way to reach other tiles which might be considered oob, such as the ceilings in caves. Villa skip is still weird in this case, but we can still argue that it's just using the falling down from a cliff mechanic, which naturally can't be banned...



Okay so that's my attempt at formalizing the rules in a way which could allow super jumping (and allows for a new "no WW" category). Lemme know how you feel about this, if it's completely wrong or if it just needs some rewording. I think we all want to sort this out as soon as we can.

[Rapid_]

No Wrong Warping:
- Do not use glitches which manipulate screen transitions such that link spawns in the wrong destination.
- Do not transition directly between any 2 dungeons or cave systems that should not be connected on the map. (This may be redundant for the main category, but I'm trying to set up for a plain old "no wrong warp" category as well.)

- Glitches banned by this: screenwarping in LA, doghouse glitch, fisherman glitch, miniboss warps (such as d7 -> d8), going from one cave system to another.
- Maybe we can replace the first point just by a list of glitches which are banned, instead of using messy words.

No Out of Bounds:
- Link may not stand inside of a tile which cannot be reached without the use of glitches. In the case of wall tiles, this means that he may not be clipped more than 3 pixels into the tile in question (so wall clipping is allowed).

If we were to ban super jumping, that definition might instead look something like:
- Link may not jump over solid objects, or clip into them by more than 3 pixels.

^ This is going with the approach of banning any kind of movement through solid walls. So, there should be no way to reach other tiles which might be considered oob, such as the ceilings in caves. Villa skip is still weird in this case, but we can still argue that it's just using the falling down from a cliff mechanic, which naturally can't be banned...

I don't really agree with this rule set, it ruins the no ww run that we have currently and seems to disregard that the transitioning from one dungeon to another via oob is both interesting and has actual uses. To fix this we might as well make doghouse its own separate thing entirely so there can be a run that doesn't use doghouse but oob and ww(your definition) to beat the game.

Also, to be honest this sort of thing wouldn't be an issue if everybody ran on console because there would be the poor sap that says "oh man guys, I have 1.1 and I can't do these things ." In fact, why not just have categories that are bound to the game's versions rather than a "universal" ruleset? Or(if you don't like that) run all instruments no ww(current ruleset) and stop this madness of redefining something that will have to be(or considered to be) changed when something new is found(as that seems to be happening lately).

[LoenP]

I like your summary and way of defining the different stuff, Drenn. The one thing I can think of being an issue in the future is possibly splitting up, by definition, a super jump that isn't OoB and one that is. As I could see people in the future possibly wanting to try runs out that allowed for all super jumps, but disallowing what we refer to as Wrong Warps.

[LoenP]

Made some vids of DX

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORD4rUIRxeQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dr5x0bAH0XU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQ087-GuCIQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHmTHsnzA9k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGC1q2Q-beE

The main one under contention is the d6 one that it may have you landing inside the border of the platform and thus constitute an OoB.

[Disclude]

I really like the idea of making a different between the super jumps as WW/No WW...instead of labeling them out of bound because there are ones that land you barley inside the wall, but should probably be in a run, like the D6 one, and the Ocarina Shrine one...More so have WW's be doing an unintended transition, and transitions not done through door ways, so those game breaking Super Jumps that just go through walls to transition to another screen wouldn't be allowed, but ones that just bypass obstacles or whatever on that screen are fine.

So I guess Drenn's definition of No Wrong Warping is really what I'd want. Though I dunno if that includes not allowing the game breaking ones where you can used super jumps to walk through walls to screen transition, cause they really destroy some of the dungeons. The ones in Leon's videos all seem like ones I would want in the run.

[Drenn]

I don't really agree with this rule set, it ruins the no ww run that we have currently and seems to disregard that the transitioning from one dungeon to another via oob is both interesting and has actual uses. To fix this we might as well make doghouse its own separate thing entirely so there can be a run that doesn't use doghouse but oob and ww(your definition) to beat the game.

As for the old "no ww" category, I see no reason it can't be renamed to "no doghouse glitch". So yes, make doghouse its own thing. I mean it may be lumped into the "wrong warp" definition, but there's no reason we can't use it by itself for another category, I think.

Also, to be honest this sort of thing wouldn't be an issue if everybody ran on console because there would be the poor sap that says "oh man guys, I have 1.1 and I can't do these things ." In fact, why not just have categories that are bound to the game's versions rather than a "universal" ruleset? Or(if you don't like that) run all instruments no ww(current ruleset) and stop this madness of redefining something that will have to be(or considered to be) changed when something new is found(as that seems to be happening lately).

I'm not entirely sure what your point here is with version differences, typically the standard way to deal with that is just using the fastest version, even if one poor guy has v1.1...

As for OoB being constantly redefined, well, I certainly don't like the approach of leaving it as some kind of undefinable "thing" - as it seems to be at the moment. As for the current situation, if super jumping is to be allowed, some redefining and re-examination is necessary in order to separate those which result in "OoB" from those which do not. I don't really see any way around this, but that's not to say my attempted definition is the best solution.

I'd be happy enough, though, if we could ditch the term OoB entirely

I really like the idea of making a different between the super jumps as WW/No WW...instead of labeling them out of bound because there are ones that land you barley inside the wall, but should probably be in a run, like the D6 one, and the Ocarina Shrine one...More so have WW's be doing an unintended transition, and transitions not done through door ways, so those game breaking Super Jumps that just go through walls to transition to another screen wouldn't be allowed, but ones that just bypass obstacles or whatever on that screen are fine.

So I guess Drenn's definition of No Wrong Warping is really what I'd want. Though I dunno if that includes not allowing the game breaking ones where you can used super jumps to walk through walls to screen transition, cause they really destroy some of the dungeons. The ones in Leon's videos all seem like ones I would want in the run.

You mean, just plain old "no wrong warping", ignoring the oob part... I think those particular transitions would be allowed with that definition. But I think there's a lot we can do in terms of saying what kinds of screen transitions are allowed or not. We could try something like "not allowed to do a screen transition between any 2 spots that shouldn't be connected". However if we did that, villa skip would pretty much be gone... it would solve the problem of the more game-breaking super jumps though.