Super Jumping (Big Ups)

[Flynn]

So, lets talk about super jumping. First and foremost, I can't stand the name shaq jumping, not bashing whoever named this, just my personal opinion is all. So for the rest of this post I'll just refer to it super jumping for my own personal preference

For me this has always been an interesting topic. I just love the way it looks, so I'll be pretty transparent about how biased I am. My question to everybody is, is there anything inherently illegal about doing a super jump itself? Or does the legality lie in the application of the jump. I get if you were to use a jump to go super out of bounds and off the map (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_HRYR_pp8s) that this is obviously illegal. But if you were to do a super jump off a wall and land in the same room, would this still be considered illegal? To me I think not, although I could very well be wrong.

As far as super jump mechanics go, in my eyes all you're doing is abusing the games code to create a point to jump where you'd normally not be able to, much like rooster skip. You jump into a wall in a way that you hit the trigger to jump off a ledge without being on the right side of the ledge. And since you hit this trigger in the middle of a jump, the game thinks you're jumping off the ledge while jumping and fires you into the air in this crazy trajectory. So even though you're jumping from the ground, the game fires you in the same trajectory as a mid air ledge jump, hence the super jump-esq look.

Okay so at this point if you disagree with me and think super jumping by itself is a completely illegal move, which is totally fine, you can probably stop reading here. Otherwise I'll assume you're at least somewhat on board and start talking about potential in bounds uses for this trick. Being able to do a super jump to bypass obstacles could have a really interesting impact on the current route. In addition to some of Emuras more realistic (not obviously OoB) examples, myself and Zorlax found some rather interesting jumps (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kETxUMkBqII) that to me stay completely in bounds, and hence would be legal by our current ruleset.

I'd love to hear any feedback, positive or negative.

[Drenn]

I think most uses of super jumping would be considered oob, since usually you use it to jump over (clip through?) solid walls. The super jump itself wouldn't be illegal, though most applications would be. That said, I'm intrigued by the idea of a category which would allow some of the applications of the super jump.

[LoenP]

1. Yeah, Shaq Jumping has always felt like a casual reference name for a trick that's yet to have a formal name made.

2. I'd love to see this in any of the runs, whether the currently existing categories or a new one to be made if it's decided to be OoB

always been super intrigued by this specific trick as it's not used in any runs currently which feels like a waste of a really cool trick

[ZorlaxSeven]

In addition to some of Emuras more realistic (not obviously OoB) examples, myself and Zorlax found some rather interesting jumps

Flynn found like.. all of those.


HOWEVER, I think I found the most important use of the Super Jump:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSzx_OlwYps

[oseabass]

I think these should be allowed.  I for one think that Shaq Jumping is only really OOB when the destination you are getting to is technically not in the boundary which the game intends.  In all of these cases, you are allowed to walk in EVERY one of those places.  For some, you are jumping over very small barriers that look to be about the same as wall clip sizes.

In most cases these jumps are used to go onto ceilings or wall tiles that allow scrolling of the screen and traversing dungeons/caves in different then intended order.  I think with the ones that keep you within the same screen and bypass certain clippable objects... seems fine to me.  If you watch the jump it never looks like Link goes out of bounds at all, there is no sticking, etc.  We abuse the hookshot for its special ability of 1 frame of "ground"... in theory when we haven't fallen using the hookshot we are standing on ground that doesn't even exist.  All of these cases look to be standing and jumping to places that are easily walkable in normal gameplay.

I think an OOB jump is more based on the intention and the destination, rather then the jump itself.  I think I'll defer to how Tompa is categorizing stuff for the TAS and how those OOBs are being handled.
-Bass

[aulos]

I think most uses of super jumping would be considered oob, since usually you use it to jump over (clip through?) solid walls.

I might be wrong but Villa skip looks a lot like those jumps, you're just jumping over solid objects... Should we allow Super Jumping? Forbid Villa Skip? But I agree with you, Flynn, some of the jumps you showed are definitely not OoBs (Dodongos skip) and I don't see any reason to ban them but the fact of scaring new people.

Also these jumps seem like they could be done everywhere in the game (too much?) or can you only do them in underworlds ?

[mabdulra]

Villa Skip's mechanics are the same as jumping from cliffs on Toronbo Shores as you go to the sword. If I recall, the game sets this byte to 0x01 during these conditions: $C10A That address I pulled from my memory so it might not actually be correct, but if it is then you should see it switch from 0x00 to 0x01 during the jumps. This is what lets you walk through objects that are otherwise solid. If you were to freeze the value of that address to 0x01 (or anything non-zero iirc) then you will just walk through walls and collision data (I forget where the address is, but it gets corrupted by Doghouse which is why I know it exists) means nothing for the tiles. You can still take damage though and I think some other effects apply, since you can still fall in holes.

I haven't checked, but my assumption is that for Super Jumping the mechanic is the same. The mechanic itself is not what we should argue about whether it is allowed in the current ruleset, since the mechanic is inherent in what we have deemed to be normal gameplay (Toronbo Shores), but instead we need to look at the application of this mechanic and what it is trying to accomplish. We already have an arbitrary definition of Out of Bounds that likely will remain arbitrary, but we have a new definition for Wrong Warp that was put forth by Tompa for his TAS work.

I think somebody needs to break the ice and do a full No Wrong Warp run featuring all the Super Jumps one can find and see how it feels. That or a "realistic" TAS where movement is human-like (no U+D/L+R) just so we can get a sense of what the route would be. I think nobody is able to come to a conclusion because nobody has seen it yet.

[Riddler]

I feel like the majority of the super jumps shown on video are in bounds, at least by the definition of "not clipping further into an object than a wall clip can". My say is that this trick is only oob if you use it as one, For example jumping onto a ceiling and going into a different dungeon from there. Of course Seeing a "No Wrong Warp" run would help solidify the legitimacy of this trick being in bounds. But as far as I am concerned, if you aren't jumping on ceilings or clipping INTO something, (not through/past) then this trick should be allowed in No OOB gameplay. but of course that's only my opinion.

[SurrealGuy]

I really like those jumps, that could make a really interesting run. I think Ill try to route a AllInstruments NoWW run this evening. Dont know if Ill stream though, because i had some big lag issues with that lately.
 Im thinking to also include things like D5/D6 Boss Key skip (walking over screen boundaries with shaq jump). Because I dont think its worth it to make a new category just for non OoB shaq jumps (we could include them in the main category though), because they just make some dungeons a bit faster and dont break the game too much.

D5 boss key skip allows to beat D5 before D4 (with jesus walking, Emuraloz has a Video of that), wich would allow to beat D4 in one sitting brcause the ghost wont appear then (?).
Edit: dont know if we can exit D5 with jesus jumps though, D4 in two parts might better/faster and also less tedious than some tricky jesuswalks

EDIT2: No more Brrr-Text in D8!! Found a way to clip into the bottom wall below the boss room (lava jesus walk) and super jump to the boss door from there. http://www.twitch.tv/surrealguy/c/6258878 (happens at around 3:20)
(Save&Quit after FireRod and get Nightmare Key the normal way is much likely faster (thanks Flynn))


EDIT3: Okay, did some testing and timing today and ill write down the current route for D8 (wanted to stream and do a quick tutorial/guide, but stream lagged like hell again). Anyways here's the route.
- Enter D8 (Boots+ Ocarina), dash up, equip Feather and sword in the room above the entrance during the dash.
- Push the moving platform straight up and do a superjump above the blocks in the room, where youd normally do the sideways block push (the sideways block push strat takes roughly the same amount of time if you get the block push really quick and do the dashjump; the superjump strat is much more consistent in terms of speed imo), BA the north wall, then the left wall
- Arrow the statue, get key and get the key in the room left off of that
- go back into the dark room, kill the 2 snakes and the peahat (you have to wait a peahat cycle, theres no way around that), go right and superjump to the key block (you can also superjump with shooting an arrow (much like the superjump in D7 with the firerod) so that could possibly save an equip)
- do the 2D section and do two superjumps to the firerod and S&Q (S&Qing is roughly 10secs faster than walking to the Nightmare Key)
- equip Feather + FireRod and get Nightmares Key the normal way
- Now, don't S&Q, walk down, right, right and do a diagonal jump into the lava in the bottom-right corner in the room with the vire and the 2 snakes, pause buffer to jesuswalk (equip firerod + feather during pause buffering)
- now youre wallclipped in the room below the bossroom and able to superjump (with the firerod) to the bossdoor (your y-axis doesnt matter too much when you jesus walk, as long as youre not too far up, you'll always be wallclipped, also buffer the jump button (no directional input) during screen transition to not fall in the lava)

If you dont like this jump and you feel really comfortable with getting Brr-less, you can also get to the bossdoor the "normal way", however this trick should be at least 5secs faster, if you do it fast and correctly. Also another thing to note: you can get the arrows in the room below the boss if you need them; also makes the respawn faster if you fall in the lava. Ill try to make a good video of this dungeon in the next days.

[Rapid_]

I really like those jumps, that could make a really interesting run. I think Ill try to route a AllInstruments NoWW run this evening. ...

I've routed this category prior to the new super jump method: http://pastebin.com/SUdcs0hR; as well as recorded a run: http://www.twitch.tv/rapid_f/c/5367529. Keep in mind: routing this category will be hard because you can OoB to lv2+lv3+lv4+lv5 from lv1 (this is done in the room below the feather chest room). Likewise, you can probably get to lv6+lv7+lv8+egg(?) from lv6 but I don't know what room this could possibly be achieved (and haven't checked).

[Ulquiorra]

I agree with Riddler's post, I think it should be allowed in No Sqwwoob as long as the jumps are in bounds. But still, I love the category like it is now, not gonna lie.

[aulos]

But still, I love the category like it is now, not gonna lie.

Even if a lot of people love a category as it is set, I don't think it is a good reason to prevent the speedrun of a game to evolve.

[SurrealGuy]

We should decide, what is considered an OoB.
Is just jumping over a solid block (f.e. like the superjump in D7 in the 4th Pillar room) considered inbounds just because you land on a piece of ground you are able (and intended) to walk on? What about walking on ceilings (f.e. the old walrus skip method)? The game doesn't intend that you walk on there, but those are tiles that you can walk on (traveling to another screen/cave from there would be considered a WW imo).
Then there are superjumps which make you stand on cliffs (or other solid objects) ( f.e http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqZC3yZJPkQ ). If we consider standing on a bush (when falling in a hole in the villa maze) an OoB, then this third instance of superjumps is clearly an OoB too.
(And what about walrus skip then? )

I'd love to see this category evolve, as much as i like the current route. I still consider creating a glitchless route (maybe like any% before villa skip was found?)

[Drenn]

Seems like every time something new is found, we need to decide whether it's OoB or not. We have different opinions on this because OoB still isn't clearly defined... I'm liking the term less and less.

If we want to stick strictly with "not allowed to clip more than 3 pixels into a solid object", I guess you can argue that you can jump over a solid wall and land past it without being in the state of being clipped into it. But to me this seems... kinda dumb. It seems like if you tried to do the jump in the dream shrine, you'd land more than 3 pixels into the wall. That seems like it'd be a silly reason to disallow that jump in particular. Or, as I suggested earlier, we could say that jumping over walls counts as clipping through them, so, disallowed.

Honestly, the fact that this is open to interpretation at all bugs me.

[Disclude]

So, I love these super jumps. I think they should definitely be added to the run, and almost all of those in that video are fine. The only one I have issues with is the one in d8 to get the firerod. I feel like you need to hit the crystal switch to lower those blocks, otherwise in my opinion you're OoB. Even though you CAN stand on those TYPES of blocks normally if you're near a crystal switch, there is NO other way to stand on THOSE specific ones while they're up unless you do this glitch. To me, that alone makes it OoB. If you hit the crystal switch, it'd be a nice way to skip Blaino still though, so that would be a fine use of it.

To me, OoB is clear as day. It's standing INSIDE a space on the screen that you can't normally stand in without doing that certain glitch(This doesn't include wall clipping as wall clipping is just a by product of walking, but does include being pushed into blocks or walls, etc.). Jumping over, of falling over top of it is fine, because you are not standing on that spot, or walking through that spot.