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Author Topic: thoughts on banning PJ64 entirely from zsr leaderboards?  (Read 83721 times)
Apasher
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« Reply #60 on: April 01, 2014, 11:22:23 AM »

I had an idea I brought up a long time ago in the original #leaderboards discussion that I wanted to bring up again - something like a lowest possible time to submit on emulator.  For example you wouldn't be able to submit anything under 20:00 for any%, or possibly base it on leaderboard standings, like nothing higher than 10th place.  This would allow the newer players to get into the game just like always but encourage the good/serious players to switch to console.  The main problem with this is just how arbitrary it seems and it would probably have to be manually implemented for every single game/category, but I thought this might be worth discussing.
I think this idea would be a good compromise, but if we were to actually implement this in the future, I feel like it would be a hassle to base this on time, because of future improvements in categories that would lead to higher standards that would be considered as a "good time". Basing this on leaderboard standings would set a more clear borderline of what runs should be played on official releases, and it would save the effort of constantly updating the borderline for every significant improvement in each category.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2014, 11:30:05 AM by Apasher » Logged
TrogWW
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« Reply #61 on: April 01, 2014, 03:28:22 PM »

I had an idea I brought up a long time ago in the original #leaderboards discussion that I wanted to bring up again - something like a lowest possible time to submit on emulator.  For example you wouldn't be able to submit anything under 20:00 for any%, or possibly base it on leaderboard standings, like nothing higher than 10th place.  This would allow the newer players to get into the game just like always but encourage the good/serious players to switch to console.  The main problem with this is just how arbitrary it seems and it would probably have to be manually implemented for every single game/category, but I thought this might be worth discussing.

I like this idea. A revision of this would be that all emulator runs have a standardized and universally accepted handicap they must add to their runs. That way no runs can be denied. So if a god runner of emulator submits a time of 18:30 for any% they must add 54 seconds (or whatever the agreed upon handicap factor should be). So their submitted time would actually be 19:24.
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whyieyesya
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« Reply #62 on: April 01, 2014, 04:21:29 PM »

I like this idea. A revision of this would be that all emulator runs have a standardized and universally accepted handicap they must add to their runs. That way no runs can be denied. So if a god runner of emulator submits a time of 18:30 for any% they must add 54 seconds (or whatever the agreed upon handicap factor should be). So their submitted time would actually be 19:24.
And what if it the player is above godlike skill and still has a record with the added penalty? Should we then just increase the penalty so his record isn't a record anymore? Aren't we then just giving ourselves extra work, because there will be debates the whole time of how high this penalty should be?

I think we're making it too complicated with the penalty. Not verifying emulator runs (like Cosmo suggested) is a less agressive and most of all less arbitrary measure imo.
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Retro
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« Reply #63 on: April 01, 2014, 04:53:05 PM »

Dumb idea especially because emu isnt even faster anyway. Lets say I get some awesome PB, instead of saying good job on this run you are basically just looking at the emu players and saying F*** you your time is not getting verified. The community would probably look at the runs of emu runners as unlegit runs which I would hate. As an emu runner, I would be very annoyed if this happens and it is a huge inconvenience for me to switch to any other platform. I am sure this is the case for other emu runners too.
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Apasher
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« Reply #64 on: April 01, 2014, 09:07:14 PM »

I like this idea. A revision of this would be that all emulator runs have a standardized and universally accepted handicap they must add to their runs. That way no runs can be denied. So if a god runner of emulator submits a time of 18:30 for any% they must add 54 seconds (or whatever the agreed upon handicap factor should be). So their submitted time would actually be 19:24.
I oppose. This would be more discouraging to high level emu players who happens to get a time that exceeds the borderline, and it would add a lot of unnecessary effort for the community to agree on a handicap and edit the times. As whyieyesya stated, this idea is a bit more aggressive compared to not verifying emu times.

In my opinion, it should be like this: if the borderline in ZFG's idea were be based off of time (which would be more of a hassle for reasons stated in my previous post), then we should leave the emu times that exceed the borderline unverified (a more passive approach). If the borderline were to be based off of leaderboard standings (less of a hassle), then we should prevent the emu times that exceed the borderline to be submitted (a more aggressive approach, but leaving the emu times unverified would be a mess).

« Last Edit: April 01, 2014, 09:14:00 PM by Apasher » Logged
Pheenoh
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« Reply #65 on: April 01, 2014, 09:17:20 PM »

The community would probably look at the runs of emu runners as unlegit runs
Many of us already see it like this, mostly because of illicit modifications to settings, inconsitenty between emulators used, etc. Alot of communities laugh at the thought of a run even being done on emulator and immediately condone it; this isn't seen as widely in OoT because so many people currently use it.
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DeathBasket
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« Reply #66 on: April 01, 2014, 09:54:27 PM »

I had an idea I brought up a long time ago in the original #leaderboards discussion that I wanted to bring up again - something like a lowest possible time to submit on emulator.  For example you wouldn't be able to submit anything under 20:00 for any%, or possibly base it on leaderboard standings, like nothing higher than 10th place.  This would allow the newer players to get into the game just like always but encourage the good/serious players to switch to console.  The main problem with this is just how arbitrary it seems and it would probably have to be manually implemented for every single game/category, but I thought this might be worth discussing.

I don't think this is a good idea. A compromise may be to have 'unofficial' times hidden by default so that the leaderboards normally only show runs on official versions and, while the unofficial times could be verified, they wouldn't be able to be ranked or would automatically rank below all 'official' runs. That, or just a separate leaderboard altogether.

I still think leaderboards for N64/everything else is the way to go but I can't see it happening realistically.
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TaylorTotFTW
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« Reply #67 on: April 02, 2014, 06:09:12 AM »

I think that before you can come up with a solid solution to this, you have to identify what kind of behavior you want the leaderboards to encourage. The reason why so many people instantly disagree with each other is because we all have different visions of what purpose the leaderboards should serve. Should it show the fastest times by default regardless of version/language? Should it encourage N64 use? Should it discourage emulator use? Should it present all versions as equal? Should it encourage use of only official releases? This is something that only the person in charge of the leaderboards (Cosmo) can decide on, and I think it's worth mentioning that compromising too much in an attempt to please everyone may just make things messier ("ok lets allow only an official ZSR approved emulator with specific plugins and settings to be shown by default on the main leaderboard, but hide the unverified times on said emulator unless they are under x arbitrary time which I subjectively view as where the line from 'good time' to bad time' is. Everyone wins!!!").

I know this is a tad bit off the specific topic, but I figured that the exact intent of the leaderboards should be put up for discussion and addressed directly since the conversation seems to be branching out more. Personally, I think that encouraging play on any official version- but also acknowledging respectable emu times- is a good compromise. But hey, I don't run the leaderboards.

Quote
Dumb idea especially because emu isnt even faster anyway. Lets say I get some awesome PB, instead of saying good job on this run you are basically just looking at the emu players and saying F*** you your time is not getting verified. The community would probably look at the runs of emu runners as unlegit runs which I would hate. As an emu runner, I would be very annoyed if this happens and it is a huge inconvenience for me to switch to any other platform. I am sure this is the case for other emu runners too.
rofl
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MichaelRadar
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« Reply #68 on: April 02, 2014, 02:50:08 PM »

As someone who has joined this community (and as such is pretty much a no name on this issue) really recently, I think the idea of banning PJ64 would really have deterred me from ever joining the scene in the first place. Which is something is something that speedrunners should really value, since I personally believe growing the scene is equally as important as making sure things are competitive. From an outsiders perspective, speedrunning is already a pretty inclusive community and a lot of the tricks  a player is required to learn don't have tutorials, or don't have modern versions of them...so the barriers to entry seem large to a new player (even with zsr being so useful). The game changes constantly so most of the new tricks I've had to learn are from other speed runners, or trying to figure it out on my own, and I think that is just one example of how in its present state there are still significant barriers to entry.

However, I am in favour of the idea of putting a time based cap on the legitimacy of PJ64 runs like ZFG suggested. Under 20 minutes still seems a bit too extreme, but somewhere in that range is good. It's worth mentioning that (to me) there exists enough stigma against emulator use that I always figured I would have to switch eventually, as I was of the mindset that nobody would take an emu world record seriously.

ALSO, I feel if you split the leaderboards by system, that wouldn't really matter because certain console categories wouldn't be taken seriously. Like nobody plays gamecube so having the best gamecube time is pretty meaningless when that system is so bad for speed running.

Any of the cheating arguments are silly to me as I would hope most people are bound a bit by honour, and more importantly I think it is easy to cheat on other systems as well so we kind of just have to trust people on that one.

My biggest problem with banning emulator is that if you ban emulator why not make it so that only one system should be used in the first place? World records that were only records because of version differences always bugged me (any% iQue comes to mind), and even though systems like VC (which I prefer playing) are still considered "official releases" there seems to be a lot of debate surrounding version differences that could get shut down by switching to one universally accepted platform (something I'm not really in favour with).

Again i'm not as important of a person here, but I figured I would give my opinion as someone who has been following and running for about 6 months now.
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DeathBasket
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« Reply #69 on: April 02, 2014, 04:34:53 PM »

However, I am in favour of the idea of putting a time based cap on the legitimacy of PJ64 runs like ZFG suggested. Under 20 minutes still seems a bit too extreme, but somewhere in that range is good. It's worth mentioning that (to me) there exists enough stigma against emulator use that I always figured I would have to switch eventually, as I was of the mindset that nobody would take an emu world record seriously.

Putting a cutoff point on times people can submit is kinda dumb because it doesn't allow recognition of skill that some people might have. Also, about people not taking 'emulator world records' seriously, 8/10 records on this site are played on emulators. People who still play the original console are at a complete disadvantage for most categories and I feel it shouldn't be this way. The best time for an N64 game should be the best time on an N64 console.

World records that were only records because of version differences always bugged me (any% iQue comes to mind)

What about when Wii VC times were only records because Wii VC runs faster than N64 can?
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MichaelRadar
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« Reply #70 on: April 02, 2014, 07:11:57 PM »

I meant non official emulators like PJ64* sorry should have clarified.
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nathanisbored
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« Reply #71 on: April 02, 2014, 08:57:52 PM »

For the record, when I said I agreed with the idea of ZSR providing an emulator, I didn't necessarily mean just for the leaderboards, but also for general practice and learning the game. If we are documenting emulator findings on the site anyway (i.e. deku stick crashes as adult on emulator), we should probably standardize what we're talking about. Sorry for being a bit off topic, I don't really have much else to add here.
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Piticarus
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« Reply #72 on: April 02, 2014, 10:24:59 PM »

If we're gonna ban emu from LBs and shut out half the community, might as well ban everything besides N64 while we're at it. Honestly iQue is a joke and Wii VC is also inaccurate. I'm not saying this is a good idea, but if we ban emu we might as well ban everything else thats faster than the original hardware and ACTUALLY make things "fair".
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geraggh34
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« Reply #73 on: April 02, 2014, 10:42:51 PM »

I think it's a bummer and would discourage players. I'm new to the community and have a pb of 24:17 and it already sucks that it seems I have to get a fantastic pb to get any acknowledgment. I play on pj64 1.6 and on runs other than any% some tricks that have to be buffered already puts it at a disadvantage.

I have VC and the GC version but US. I use pj64 1.6 for three reasons.
JP rom
I'm new and only know how to record my runs on OBS
And I'm clueless on JP wad injections

I would love to do runs on vc if I could make it JP and be able to record the VC and put a wad injection to run JP( I just recently got OBS and recorded a 24:17 after two days. So I'm lost when it comes to recording both vc and splits.

I know it's not a whole lot of input. I just wanted to point out my point of view as a current pj64 1.6 runner. I am also pretty serious and plan on starting to get competitive, but it sucks if emu runners get the crap end of the stick unless it's 2. 0 or something.

Please don't flame me I'm new Sad
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Pheenoh
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« Reply #74 on: April 03, 2014, 02:02:11 AM »

I think the idea of banning PJ64 would really have deterred me from ever joining the scene in the first place. Which is something is something that speedrunners should really value, since I personally believe growing the scene is equally as important as making sure things are competitive. From an outsiders perspective, speedrunning is already a pretty inclusive community and a lot of the tricks  a player is required to learn don't have tutorials, or don't have modern versions of them...so the barriers to entry seem large to a new player (even with zsr being so useful). The game changes constantly so most of the new tricks I've had to learn are from other speed runners, or trying to figure it out on my own, and I think that is just one example of how in its present state there are still significant barriers to entry.

However, I am in favour of the idea of putting a time based cap on the legitimacy of PJ64 runs like ZFG suggested. Under 20 minutes still seems a bit too extreme, but somewhere in that range is good. It's worth mentioning that (to me) there exists enough stigma against emulator use that I always figured I would have to switch eventually, as I was of the mindset that nobody would take an emu world record seriously.

ALSO, I feel if you split the leaderboards by system, that wouldn't really matter because certain console categories wouldn't be taken seriously. Like nobody plays gamecube so having the best gamecube time is pretty meaningless when that system is so bad for speed running.

Any of the cheating arguments are silly to me as I would hope most people are bound a bit by honour, and more importantly I think it is easy to cheat on other systems as well so we kind of just have to trust people on that one.

My biggest problem with banning emulator is that if you ban emulator why not make it so that only one system should be used in the first place? World records that were only records because of version differences always bugged me (any% iQue comes to mind), and even though systems like VC (which I prefer playing) are still considered "official releases" there seems to be a lot of debate surrounding version differences that could get shut down by switching to one universally accepted platform (something I'm not really in favour with).

Again i'm not as important of a person here, but I figured I would give my opinion as someone who has been following and running for about 6 months now.

I'm gonna note my thoughts on this post.

I think the idea of banning PJ64 would really have deterred me from ever joining the scene in the first place.

The ban was just on leaderboard submission (and has recently been suggested that they simply be moved to a seperate category, rather than removing them completely), nothing is stopping you from still doing runs.

Which is something is something that speedrunners should really value, since I personally believe growing the scene is equally as important as making sure things are competitive
Growing the community is great, but along with growth you're also gonna get more people who want to try to cheat, which is infinitely more easier (and also unintentionally possible to the ignorant) on emulator. Additionally, the community would still grow even if emulator runs are removed from verified boards or outright banned. The community grew immensely before the leaderboards were in place, the community grew before a large amount of people did runs on emulator, and the community will continue to grow, regardless of the aforementioned acceptance.

so the barriers to entry seem large to a new player (even with zsr being so useful)
It really isn't. There's more tutorials and documentation for Ocarina of Time speed running than any other game. And, again, this isn't preventing you from learning or even doing runs on emulator.

ALSO, I feel if you split the leaderboards by system, that wouldn't really matter because certain console categories wouldn't be taken seriously.
This is highly opinionated, and would be hard to say what is or isn't serious. I view any OoT category that isn't Any% or 100% as basically a joke with arbitrary restrictions, but there's still people who will do runs. If the previously removed "Child Dungeons" category has shown us anything, it's that people will do runs of anything that has any kind of "officialness" to it.

more importantly I think it is easy to cheat on other systems as well so we kind of just have to trust people on that one.
It really isn't. Emulators, cheating devices for them, and the games themselves are free for most people. You can't artificially modify a console's base frame rate settings without modifying the hardware in some sort of fashion (which requires a console and the equipment to do so, both not free), but all you have to do is change a setting or two in an emulator, or tick on an action replay code. Of course, AR codes are easily attainable on console, but they're also more noticeable than a very slightly raised or varied frame rate setting.

My biggest problem with banning emulator is that if you ban emulator why not make it so that only one system should be used in the first place?
Running on the fastest official version of a game has been around since before SDA. It's too difficult to outright ban an official version of the game without mass community agreement (see: GBA version of LTTP). With (unofficial) emulators, it's easy, since they're made to compare to very specific console versions, are unofficial, and can do a very poor job of emulating said console.

Again i'm not as important of a person here
No one here is any more important than anyone else. We're all speed runners.

« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 02:15:38 AM by Pheenoh » Logged

<yashichidsf> tompa should default be a mod on everything related to srl
<yashichidsf> while i'm not a big fan of modding bots, i think tompa is really well programmed
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