thoughts on banning PJ64 entirely from zsr leaderboards?

[nathanisbored]

I feel like this is somewhat addressed when the best N64 time one of the first things you see on the page

Fair enough

[Kaztalek]

"i want to speedrun an N64 game but i dont have an N64" man life is so tough for those emu players out there

emu speedruns are literally stealing money from nintendo. ive already reported the IP addresses of all emu runners in this thread to the police. enjoy prison

[Njordr]

"i want to speedrun an N64 game but i dont have an N64" man life is so tough for those emu players out there

emu speedruns are literally stealing money from nintendo. ive already reported the IP addresses of all emu runners in this thread to the police. enjoy prison

[ahou]

VC doesn't run the same as the n64, you can hold a stick as adult. This changes the AD and ganonless route for those games giving VC an advantage over n64 1.2. Emu runs are much closer to the actual game then gc/vc if you're comparing it that way. (not too sure about the status of stick on B on ique).

VC is just another bad n64 emulator, and was included in what i said. It's not legit either.

And to be honest, that's the point that I don't understand, emulators are slower, crash more often and don't permit to do some tricks. If they were actually faster for any category, I could see why they would need to get banned.
But here's, that's basically banning a man with a wooden leg from a sprint race. Yeah, depending on the quality of his fake leg it could give him an advantage, but if it's a wooden leg clearly it won't ever give him an advantage above other runners.

It really doesn't matter if it's faster or not. It's more like allowing someone on a bicycle to compete in a car race. It may be slower, but that's not an excuse to allow them to compete on completely different grounds. If someone with a peg leg, or 9 fingers wants to speedrun oot, i won't object to them being allowed on the leaderboards. Having a handicap isn't the same at all.

[whyieyesya]

VC is just another bad n64 emulator, and was included in what i said. It's not legit either.
It really doesn't matter if it's faster or not. It's more like allowing someone on a bicycle to compete in a car race. It may be slower, but that's not an excuse to allow them to compete on completely different grounds. If someone with a peg leg, or 9 fingers wants to speedrun oot, i won't object to them being allowed on the leaderboards. Having a handicap isn't the same at all.

Then again, how much proof is there that emulator is much slower other than a video showing a difference in loading times + obviously more pause lag. Maybe there's more material, but still it's really hard to compare two systems.

[Zefie]

Since I'm curious, would anything stop me from re-submitting my old times, change them to "VC" but just say I have no video?
Maybe it's just me but I don't see the point of banning unverifiable systems if you're not gonna ban unverifiable times in general.

So banning is definitely silly. I like Quo's idea about the different leaderboards, though I think a filter would be simpler. You don't really need to make a fuss about different systems as long as the info is presented next to the time, like it is right now.

emu speedruns are literally stealing money from nintendo. ive already reported the IP addresses of all emu runners in this thread to the police. enjoy prison

The police won't listen, believe me, I've reported so many VCheats without a response, it's insane.

[whyieyesya]

Since I'm curious, would anything stop me from re-submitting my old times, change them to "VC" but just say I have no video?
Maybe it's just me but I don't see the point of banning unverifiable systems if you're not gonna ban unverifiable times in general.

So banning is definitely silly. I like Quo's idea about the different leaderboards, though I think a filter would be simpler. You don't really need to make a fuss about different systems as long as the info is presented next to the time, like it is right now.

Cosmo already mentions the need to post a video in this post.

[Zefie]

Cosmo already mentions the need to post a video in this post.

I know but it was mostly in regards to banning it entirely and not just having it unverified.

[Vulpone]

i recently came back from a 1-year break and all I have available to me is Emu.

if the people on emu want to directly compare to VC, they'll have to get VC.
i think Emu times should not be officially recognized when they're within the top 5 (or whatever number) simply because of how hard it is to define "Emu" - mupen, pj64. what version?
there's only one VC 1.2 OoT Japanese, but Emu 1.2 OoT Japanese runs differently in a million ways (e.g. its ~5s faster every reset).

i liked the idea of approved emulator settings to streamline things a little, but it doesn't change my view. i want top-tier runs distinguished by skill and execution, emulator simply depends on too many factors.

lastly, i dont think n64 should have its own category. what is the point? this is speedrunning. last I checked, it's about getting the fastest time possible. that's why cosmos iQue run is accepted. it's faster and an official release.
n64s are not more accessible, theyre slower and in some cases more expensive.
want the fastest possible time? buy the fastest, official console.
n64: your priorities are messed up. VC is the obvious choice to achieve the fastest possible speedrun, clinging to old standards is harmful to progress.

sorry if i come across a little angry. i think n64 players deserve no special treatment (except when there's an actual reason like oot 100% 1.0 eyeball frog early). the priority should be speed.

thanks for reading (probably not)

[nathanisbored]

i recently came back from a 1-year break and all I have available to me is Emu.

if the people on emu want to directly compare to VC, they'll have to get VC.
i think Emu times should not be officially recognized when they're within the top 5 (or whatever number) simply because of how hard it is to define "Emu" - mupen, pj64. what version?
there's only one VC 1.2 OoT Japanese, but Emu 1.2 OoT Japanese runs differently in a million ways (e.g. its ~5s faster every reset).

i liked the idea of approved emulator settings to streamline things a little, but it doesn't change my view. i want top-tier runs distinguished by skill and execution, emulator simply depends on too many factors.

lastly, i dont think n64 should have its own category. what is the point? this is speedrunning. last I checked, it's about getting the fastest time possible. that's why cosmos iQue run is accepted. it's faster and an official release.
n64s are not more accessible, theyre slower and in some cases more expensive.
want the fastest possible time? buy the fastest, official console.
n64: your priorities are messed up. VC is the obvious choice to achieve the fastest possible speedrun, clinging to old standards is harmful to progress.

sorry if i come across a little angry. i think n64 players deserve no special treatment (except when there's an actual reason like oot 100% 1.0 eyeball frog early). the priority should be speed.

thanks for reading (probably not)

Is speedrunning about getting the fastest possible time? Or getting the best run in terms of skill? You mentioned both, but you can't really have it both ways when different versions/platforms have differences in speed. If you were to separate versions, you could have it both ways, because you can still have the fastest possible time within a certain regime. I've always thought there isn't much point in grouping everything together, because to me the point isn't to see the "fastest possible time", but to see the highest skill. That's the difference between a TAS and a RTA for example. A TAS is about seeing the game pushed to its limits, whereas a RTA is about seeing the runner pushed to their limits. So you might as well either standardize (which arbitrarily bans other platforms people might use), or separate (which can create way too many categories). You could say standardizing N64 is "less arbitrary", because it's the original platform the game was released for, but it's still not the best idea. There already is standardizing going on to some degree. For example, almost no one plays on PAL, and almost everyone tries to play on Japanese.

Regardless of how I feel, ultimately I want to do what's best for ZSR and the community, and I'm okay with the idea of putting everything on one board, as long as there is some acknowledgement that it affects skill rankings. Especially to someone outside the community who views the leaderboards, they're going to assume "fastest time = best played run", even though we all know that's not necessarily true.

[Vulpone]

Is speedrunning about getting the fastest possible time? Or getting the best run in terms of skill? You mentioned both, but you can't really have it both ways when different versions/platforms have differences in speed. If you were to separate versions, you could have it both ways, because you can still have the fastest possible time within a certain regime. I've always thought there isn't much point in grouping everything together, because to me the point isn't to see the "fastest possible time", but to see the highest skill. That's the difference between a TAS and a RTA for example. A TAS is about seeing the game pushed to its limits, whereas a RTA is about seeing the runner pushed to their limits. So you might as well either standardize (which arbitrarily bans other platforms people might use), or separate (which can create way too many categories). You could say standardizing N64 is "less arbitrary", because it's the original platform the game was released for, but it's still not the best idea. There already is standardizing going on to some degree. For example, almost no one plays on PAL, and almost everyone tries to play on Japanese.

I can honestly relate to what you said but from my experience, there's a double standard in the speedrunning community anyway.
But if we go down the road you've mentioned, it divides a community: some might play on N64 because the "WR" is not as good instead of becoming a competitor for the fastest time.

The only issue I have with not using time as a measure is how difficult it is. Pydoyk's 19:05 was an amazing run with the strats he used. However, it was beaten. New strats or not, skater beat it with an incredible run. Now Cosmo holds the WR, albeit with a more sloppy run (deal with it. i'm sure he'll beat it soon enough). But it's still the fastest time.

You see how difficult it gets when time isn't used as a definite measure. For me, speedrunning is most definitely about the fastest time possible. You argue that the "runner" is being pushed, but that's misleading: it's still the game that's being pushed. The core difference between TAS and RTA is that the former is idealistic, whereas the latter is realistic. Nevertheless, the game is being pushed.
The problem that arose with iQue is simply that a new and official version was found to be faster and from my experience, ZSR and SRL users really, really hate change.

My point is that so long as there is a double standard (and there most definitely is) in this community, streamlining anything will be hard to do.

It may seem off-topic, but I think the emulator issue is similar. Ultimately, you can't force anyone to do anything and cheating can take place anywhere. People can splice runs on console or use savestates on emulator. I don't understand why people cheat, but they do.
This topic has always been extremely controversial and it's not going to change. Cosmo bringing it up just shows how much people disagree with each other. I don't think there will be an understanding anyway.

Solution: ?? either take a bold risk and remove half of your submitted times (-> value as a leaderboard?) or define what is banned from emulator (-> only version xy, limit speed to whatever)

[AmberWynne]

Hi.  I know my opinion probably doesn't mean a lot since I'm so new to speedrunning personally, but I'll throw it down anyway.  For some background, I've been running on an 64 j1.1 cart, and am currently in the process of upgrading to VC.  I've never used emulators--not even for practice.  (I'm too scared it'll goof up my just-emerging muscle memory.)  I have no personal stock in this argument.

But I am absolutely against banning emulators. 

Personally, I think saying 'it's so much easier to cheat on emu' is pretty much poppycock.  You can cheat on any device.  For our VCs, how many of us have a legitimate copy of the game?  Very, very, VERY few of us do.  Most of us had to softmod our wii and install a wad.  Couldn't a person get a wad somewhere that could be tampered with to run slightly faster?  Why isn't there any system in place to checks our wads?  This problem isn't fundamentally any different than the 'couldn't roms be tampered with?' issue.  The only difference is that the hardware for the wii is theoretically the same (which ISN'T actually true either, as I've heard reports that the Wii U has faster loading times, and that even some of the later-manufactured wiis are a bit faster, too).  I think standardizing the settings for emu and having ZSR host an emu download, like whyieyesya and nathanisbored suggested, is an excellent idea.  Emu players should show their settings at the end of their run.

And even if we have legit wads, couldn't you just string together a segmented video?  Pretty much every time a scene changes or Link has to go through a narrow space like a door, you could splice your video and take the best section and upload that, and (if done correctly) no one would be able to tell.  You can cheat on any device, and if you're the kind of douche that cheats, what version it is isn't going to stop you. 

All banning emu would do is discourage entry into the field and get rid of some really decent players who (for whatever reason--muscle memory, controller options, they don't have the luxury of money, etc) do play on emu.  A lot of people don't own a wii, or an n64--and if they do, they might not be willing to mod them to play the Japanese versions.  Saying "you have to shell out this money before you can become a member of our community" is a huge turn-off for a lot of people.  Part of the reason we have such a great community is that we have a lot of good resources for the game and a large influx of players.  I feel like not allowing emu at all will destroy accessibility and set the entrance bar way too high, and will stifle new player growth.

But you know what IS ok?  Saying "you have to shell out this money before you runs are RESPECTED by everyone in this community."  As evidenced by this very thread, there are a lot of people who look down on emu-users.  Anyone who's part of the community will pick right up on negative stigma and, if they're serious and want to get better times and be more respected.

That's the thing--IF they get serious.  Most people who are interested in running the game aren't serious enough to pay possibly hundreds of dollars before they even know if they like it.  Emu is a great way to enter into the community.  As others have mentioned, there are a lot of problems with emu--downright horrible pause buffering, places the game will completely crash--and between the social pressure and the physical constraints of the platform, a lot of people will be (and have been!) persuaded to upgrade. 

Here's my idea. Have 2 LBs, 1 for official verified runs and one for all runs. On the first one, all the times that are present will be all the n64, gc, vc and ique time that have a video and that have been verified, and on the other, have all times, any system, video or not. This way, people will see the "official" leaderboards, but emu runners won't be completely shut out and their times will still appear and can be verified by admins. Same deal with people without any means to capture their game, their times can still appear on LB #2

This sounds pretty much like the compromise Cosmo suggested, except still allowing emulator runs to be verified. I kinda like this, simply because I recognize that if you don't verify emu runs, then there is no incentive for them to be checked thoroughly. I'd hope they would be checked anyway, but maybe this is a better idea. Basically have a tag for "verified" and another for "official".

I think these are really great solutions.  Particularly the 'verified' and 'official' tags!  It's not a downgrade to emu players, but an UPGRADE for players of official versions.  That's a great way to incentivize upgrading to an official version without reducing the accomplishments of emu players.  I completely support these ideas.

For the leaderboards themselves, would there be a way to enable user settings where you can toggle what kinds of runs you want to naturally be able to see when you're logged in?  That way people can disable emu/ique/non-pal/non-english, or just show runs from the platform that they race on, or whatever they like as a default--to maximize their viewing experience? 

[nathanisbored]

For me, speedrunning is most definitely about the fastest time possible. You argue that the "runner" is being pushed, but that's misleading: it's still the game that's being pushed. The core difference between TAS and RTA is that the former is idealistic, whereas the latter is realistic. Nevertheless, the game is being pushed.

Well there is definitely more of a difference than that. That's why you have tons and tons of RTA runs, and generally only one TAS run at a time. RTAs are competitive, and therefore a skill showcase. TASes are about entertainment and pure optimization (and they're often collaborative). If both were trying to achieve the same goal except one is idealistic and one is realistic, then we wouldn't have the leaderboards. I mean, isn't the point of the leaderboard to see a ranking of skill levels? If you combine different versions on the same leaderboard, that kinda defeats the purpose. Regardless, the objective "fastest time" IS meaningful to a lot of people for whatever reason, and it is worth labeling somewhere. Maybe it would make more sense to have something at the top that says "Fastest time is 18:51 by Cosmo on iQue, click here for more iQue times" or something, and then have the VC leaderboard (most competitive platform) under that. Idk if there's a point to having a combined master list anyway, if the rankings don't mean what they're supposed to.

[jarvitz]

In addition to everything else said, I would like to point out that on an emulator the haunted wasteland is nearly impossible to fail due to the brightness compared to console. You dont even need to learn the desert on emulator, you just go through it. For n64 I actually have to count the flags, know where they are, and know the second part. Its much harder on console.

[quo]

Decided to "make" my idea of the LBs quick things. Shoutouts to microsoft paint.

First off, the All Runs leaderboard. I hope I don't need to explain this one too much, it's basically what zsr is atm.


The Official Runs board. All times are N64, GC, VC or iQue, any language and they all have videos.


So like this, emu runs will be verified, runs without videos will appear in "All Runs", runs with videos that are waiting to be verified will be in "All Runs" and all the verified console runs will appear under both "All Runs" and "Official Runs".