OoT3D: 100% Segmented Discussion [NG+ Saw]

[r0bd0g]

Nah it's OK I did my fair share of ripping off the normal oot seg'd route.

Yeah time of day was something that I couldn't optimize as much as I would have liked. It's not really reasonable for me to go out and see how fast you can get from a to b on a game I don't own and when I'm kinda bad at the one I do :p. Maybe I could still theory route out a couple of the Sun's Songs though, IDK.

Splitting shadow into two parts is something I still don't know whether or not to do. The main reason it's done on normal OoT is because FW saves too much time and they don't have it when they get the hovers. But it's not the only reason. They also have Longshot, Ice Arrows, and BGS to save time with. Longshot is probably the best of these, with several places to save a couple seconds, the biggest one being that boat room GS. I realized now that I still kinda have to waste a bit of time with having to FW back to get to shadow. FW is like 15 seconds, to warping and entering the dungeon's 35 or 40 or so. I think there's a pretty good chance it's faster to split it up but I can't say it for sure... And if I do split it up, I have no idea where I'd take damage for the bolero CS skip without wasting a billion bombs or something (though maybe I could save a couple seconds on hp's if I didn't have to avoid them between shadow and bolero). There's also 50 free rupees in shadow and they I think kinda help out a bit but I'm sure I could easily find replacements at the cost of only a couple seconds. So uh, I was kinda hoping somebody would come and say something definitive about it but nobody really seems to know how much time those items actually save. There are a few other things that I'm not sure are saving time... Maybe someday I'll make a post about them if anybody actually decides to make a go of the route.

I thought I looked up that shield swipe still worked on 3D. If for some reason you can't dupe the milk then I guess you'll just have to drink it at some point. The input for it is fairly complicated and I'm not totally sure what exactly it is because the documentation of it is strangely poor. It's something like... get an empty bottle in your hand. Hold R. Push bottle. Push the item you want to dupe (if the item has a crouch stab, it'll crouch stab instead and you can't dupe it). Hold Z. Hold Bottle. Release R. The bottle swings and dupes using whatever you catch. Maybe I've got that wrong IDK. I sometimes throw in extra button presses for good measure, lol.

On normal OoT they get the lower red rock gs by killing it and then poking the hookshot through the rock at it. At the very least, on 3D, you should be able to hookshot clip it from the wall on the other side, if that method doesn't work anymore. The upper red rock GS is a little more iffy. They kill it and then backflip into it at the right angle to get the token. Maybe the changed hookshot mechanics in this game would let you get that with the hookshot too, if the backflip thing doesn't work anymore.

What's this about saving time with flipping back and forth through time? You have to do it at least once because of the song of storms. I managed to find reasons to want to leave child 2 until the very end, though they're just small time savers and you could probably put it anywhere after you get the stuff you need. Maybe that would be a good idea if you find yourself having to go through a lot of trouble to get bomb drops. You could maybe pick up the BB40 and it's free refill a little earlier.

[Norkix]

I thought you were adapting the normal OoT 100% seg'd route, which I know flips back and forth more than once.  I figured you might have a few less overall seeing as we can't DoT skip, but again, I just kind of skimmed everything after Child 1. I don't really understand why they do it, and I'm not sure if the RTA route makes as many trips either.

Thanks for clarifying shield swipes. I'd seen CloudMax talking about them in the R&D, but I never knew what they were or how to do them. I don't think there could be a target input in 3D as putting up the shield while Z-targeting puts away any item you have in your hand that isn't your sword. I think Grezzo did that to make it so you couldn't do the glitch where you can see the hookshot laser while running around, although I thought that one was harmless and was actually really cool.

I'd think you could jump in the lava to damage yourself for Bolero cs skip. I don't recommend having long stretches in which Adult Link is running around with 1/2 <3, because in 3D they added a decrease in walking speed when you get that low on health to simulate fatigue.

Regarding the red rock GSs, I'm not sure a Hookshot clip would work from the opposite wall. The sidehop method of hookshot clipping only works if you're looking down and left. We may be able to get it from the obtuse angle on the tunnel. I'll do some testing. As for the upper... I tried laying a bomb next to the rock and it didn't kill it. I might have thrown it, so I'll test it again, but for now, I think that one will need to wait for hammer. Backflips in 3D have a completely different animation from the 64 version and don't go as high either, because Grezzo wanted to make it more realistic. The backflip may not clip far enough into the rock to get it. I tried to hookshot clip into the boulder to kill the Skulltula, but it kept pinging off the inside of the rock. Might be able to grab the token; again I'll do some testing. Deku grove GS w/ chu and hookshot should still be possible, and maybe even easier, because an extra ring appears around the laser when it's on a hookshotable object. I'm pretty sure this is also true for tokens, but I've never really payed attention to these in particular because I just aim and fire at them.

[r0bd0g]

The normal oot 100 only switches time once... There's a couple things that a 2nd time flip could be useful for, maybe, but they don't save the time it takes to switch.

They usually killed them with jumpslashes or spins. Waiting until after the hammer would really suck. There's a chance it would mean a much earlier child 2 in order to plant the dmc bean... IDK what would happen really. Try looking up some oot 100 runs to get a better look at what they do when you test this...

A brief search seems to indicate that shield swipe only works if the bottle is on your B button? I guess you'll just have to drink it.

[TheWayfaringFox]

The red rock GS's are blocked from inside the walls as well, but I don't know about clipping through them yet...

[r0bd0g]

Apparently the actor glitch in Jabu is fine? What about the mirror room actor glitch in spirit? I still need to be able to spawn the chest, and later I have to kill the enemies in lower child-side to open a barred door. If you can use the actor glitch to get down, that'd save a good bit of time.

[TheWayfaringFox]

Yeah, it should work in Spirit since Jabu works. But they moved the location of the crystal switch so there needs to be another setup.

[r0bd0g]

Why would you assume it works in spirit because it works in jabu if it doesn't work in botw.... Unless they, like, specifically screwed around with botw just to troll us.

So do I need the hammer for those GS's or not?

[TheWayfaringFox]

You're right that I shouldn't assume about the Spirit Temple. And yes, you need the hammer to reach those GSs in DMT unfortunately.

[r0bd0g]

askfjh

I don't think it's possible to fix this without having to make another trip through the crater. I thought of a couple of things you could try to cut down on that, but I couldn't think of anything that didn't sound slower. This means:

- The extra bolero warp might make the CS skip not worth it.
- It might be worth it to plant the bean.

Not sure about either of those.

[TheWayfaringFox]

Okay, so I'm actually playing through the route, r0bd0g. I got through segment 13 yesterday. I like most of it, and I was able to move some stuff around.

-First of all I didn't grab the crater HP and soil GS because it is extremely difficult to get them in 24 seconds. It's your choice about whether or not they themselves should be moved, but if you do not need to move them, I would suggest obtaining the Hylian Shield in the graveyard to allow some deathwarps and error so that Link will not lose his Deku Shield.
 
-In segment 8 I was able to obtain the Fire Arrow platform GS because when I got the letter it was sunset. I used a mini superswim off of a megaflip and swam the rest of the distance, which is still pretty slow, but I got to the Lab GS before the sun came up. I do think that there should be a Hess of some sort (I wonder if you could Wess to it) to save time in some way.

-I got the Know-it-All brothers GS after Jabu before heading into Deku. At first I thought this was just an error until I noticed that after the Requiem and soil GS it literally becomes dawn, so you can head to LLR and do the day stuff first and change it to night afterward, which should reduce the amount of Sun's Songs played to 1.

-Overall I liked how obtaining the slingshot optimized the later segments. That was a good call, imho.

[r0bd0g]

No chance on the hylian shield grave. The HP and GS -might- move now that I have to make another trip through the crater, IDK. If it's possible to get it in 24 seconds and it's the fastest way, then that's what'll have to be done. You might be able to use your bugs to do timer delay? Maybe in RTA you would do something else to get the HP and warp in for the GS?

Did you get the sense that it was faster or slower than using serenade to get it in child 2?

I wonder if I can route the Sun's Song completely out of child 1 and skip that trip to the graveyard to get it, and perhaps speed up getting the song as well since I wouldn't have to walk back out of the grave. One problem spot is going to be the child ZF GS. I would have to leave Jabu after boomerang and then walk back in after I get the GS... The only reason I can consider this is b/c I don't need Epona's in child 1 anymore. I will have to lose time traveling all the way to child GV since probably lon lon will be after the bunny hood instead... Maybe it's slower even if it does work out. Anyway, you're right about that GS, so I'll fix that.

I wanna check if I can move the skulltula rewards to when I deliver the Keaton Mask. I've thought of an improvement that, if I do it, won't have enough GS's to get the upgrades where I get them now. Maybe it's faster at Keaton Mask anyway. EDIT: Yeah I was able to get rid of a FW usage by moving a sun's song warp that only saved like 1 second to earlier in the route. But then the place I used to get the quiver upgrade had to get moved since I hadn't been to forest yet, bringing another sun's song back into the route, plus another second or so of travel. So for like 3 seconds saved, I guess I'd rather not make the minuet & bolero segment even longer, unless there's a clip so I can get that quiver upgrade at night. Still moving the upgrade, though.

[TheWayfaringFox]

In an RTA there would need to be other methods. For the HP there is only one shot to get it if you plan to get it after double magic. I think you can obtain the GS with the timer glitch as long as you use the bottle many times to stop the timer. But they would have to be seperated in order for link to keep his shield.

I'm going to time obtaining both methods to reach the platform. You can superswim to the platform from both areas, but I will need to time the warp as well.

Serenade: 32 sec

From letter: 28 sec

It is 4 seconds faster, and I just swam from the letter that time. But I am really good at mashing and these times are within a margin of error unless you have to play the Sun's Song for the Serenade method.

That would be a big route change with the Sun's Song. But I'm going to check more of the route you already posted.

I'll check more about the rewards movement once I get there.

[r0bd0g]

Does that include the time it takes to get back from the platform?

You can get that GS in child 2 at any point as long as the previous segment ended at night.

Oh I just noticed it's night in seg 14, so I moved the bazaar, tower, and tree GS's to it.

[TheWayfaringFox]

Okay, it took me 28 seconds to get back there. This was with a Hess off of an Octorok. It should be 5 seconds faster if you manage to not get caught in the bridge like I did here.

[r0bd0g]

http://pastebin.com/z0kGpJsT

Hopefully now I'm done. I made this to fix issues with the red rock GS's apparently requiring the hammer. Had to change some things as a result...

- The Fire Temple WW was removed. With the time it takes to warp to bolero, it wasn't worth it anymore. (Maybe.)
- Child 2 was moved earlier so I could plant the bean. IDK if it's faster but w/e, enjoy your bean. The earlier 40 bag should come in handy. I didn't realize before that it wouldn't really be much trouble to do child 2 with a big poe still in one of your bottles.
- The Know it all bros house GS was moved and took out a lot of Sun's Song crap. I was also able to move some Kak GS's around.
- I was thinking to put Spirit after Fire but didn't b/c it might be difficult to get the many magic drops that that would require. Probably not the best thing to lose a couple seconds for. Maybe time of day or bomb counts would be more vital. Just keep in mind you can put spirit after fire if for some reason you think that'll work out better.
- I left the fire arrow platform GS until Child 2. I can't tell from what fox is saying if it's faster to swim all the way over there or not... If you can't do full superswims, I'm was guessing it wasn't. I'm not sure if he's realizing that if I get it in child 1, I have to swim all the way back from the platform as well.

And I really hope this is the last time I have to mess around with this. Renumbering segments, gs's, hp's, rupees.... not quite as fun as it sounds.