100% Segmented Team Run

[ZFG]

segment 14 submission http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KphlzhxTblU

Edit: Segment 15 save

[Strongfox]

Just wanted to say that Runnerguy2489 has posted a video of segment 15 in case anyone missed it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_nfevCko2w

Also want to point out if anyone is thinking of doing a segment after this one then the scarecrow song is C left, C right, C left, C right, C left, C right, C left, C right in case anyone did not see it in the video

[Runnerguy2489]

It's on ZeldaSpeedRunsDotCom youtube now: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOyaerfO0CQ

Of course, like a lot of segments, anyone is free to try and beat it (fishing can be improved if you are patient enough), but having the extra bomb drop is huge, it allows us to save time on future segments.

Also, for anyone looking to try segment 16 (it is correct on the routes page) here's the Wii Save: http://www.mediafire.com/?3nu3dv4x75jqje5

[Majora MIM]

I find it sad that we never get the silver scale in the 100% route.

Nice segmnt rg, and great bomb drops.

[Runnerguy2489]

So I think we should have more of these: discussions of strats when we get to a new segment. Already between ZFG and I there have been times the other has had slower strats and worked hard on a segment. We both agree we don't want this to happen again.

So for segment 16 I came up with this: http://www.justin.tv/runnerguy2489/b/294030932

It's just a recording from an emulator where I used savestates until bubbles were out of my way and I did everything the way I wanted. So to anyone, do you see spots where better strats could be used? I don't know if the backwalking/backflipping in the 2nd room is really worth it. I always used two backwalks in the main room with Ruto over my head, I've seen some just backwalk once and walk to the door. Let's discuss, either here or in #zelda

[joe]

hey this is my best and i'm kinda happy with it until someone beats it, it is definitely improvable by 2-3 seconds (notably i get hit by the jellyfish at the end and a couple backwalks could be better) but im sick of the luck in this segment. it's 4:45 from reset to save, which i think is a couple seconds slower than RG's test thing, but he does backwalks through bubbles that i refuse to even consider doing so whatever. the best i could imagine getting is 4:42.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teyoyjGqdfQ

[Serris]

Just wondering - are you sure duping an actual bottle over Ruto's letter is SDA-legal? It could be argued that you don't actually obtain the bottle until you show the letter to King Zora, because it's in an unusable letter-in-a-bottle-quest-item state, and duping over it just removes the letter bottle and creates a glitched empty bottle that doesn't count towards completion, so you technically don't complete all the quest steps required to legitimately acquire the bottle.

[Runnerguy2489]

It could be argued that you don't actually obtain the bottle until you show the letter to King Zora, because it's in an unusable letter-in-a-bottle-quest-item state

There are two ways to obtain the bottle: Show King Zora or dupe over it (you could RBA the slot as well I suppose). Likewise, there are two ways to obtain the golden scale, hold Z as a child with a 6+ fish or go as adult and catch the big fish you are supposed to. We do the faster of the two in both cases.

so you technically don't complete all the quest steps required to legitimately acquire the bottle.

Out of order in your message but I wanted to address this one next. Yes, we do not complete all the quest steps to get the bottle. We also do not complete the quest steps to get the golden scale either. Or epona. Or many of the main quest either (Darunia never dances, we don't even see or talk to Nabooru until she is an IK in the spirit temple, etc.). The quest itself is not what matters, it's the end item you are searching for. Keep in mind also RBA was never banned from 100% - it just also deletes many things and so is not practical in 100%.

and duping over it just removes the letter bottle and creates a glitched empty bottle that doesn't count towards completion

It actually is not a glitched bottle if it's in the bottle slots - it was obtained through a glitch but it is not a glitched bottle (again, like the golden scale was obtained through a glitch). The game cannot tell the difference between an empty bottle in slot 2 you got from duping or an empty bottle in slot 2 after talking to King Zora. They are the same thing. I would say that it therefore does count to the final completion.

[Serris]

I don't think it's comparable to any other items really. The Gold Scale etc. are fully functional items, the letter bottle is useless until it's emptied. I don't think it matters whether the game can tell the difference, either -  100% isn't game-defined, the players agree on a sensible definition. Also, "glitched bottle" was supposed to mean "obtained through a glitch" in this case. The point is, as I understand it, that it's an entirely new and illegitimate bottle that replaces the quest item you're supposed to turn into a legitimate bottle, and yes, this does matter in a 100% run, just like you have to get all 100 legitimate Skulltulas Tokens. Otherwise, you might as well not get Ruto bottle at all and instead glitch some placeholder item onto the bottle slot, then dupe a bottle over it (no idea if that's possible, it's just an example to explain my reasoning). I'm fully aware there are other ways to interpret 100%, but the question is mainly whether SDA agrees with your definition, since this probably didn't come up when the current 100% run was discussed because King Zora skip wasn't used/known.

[RingRush]

That is like saying you have to drink the Lon Lon Milk from the Talon bottle to have it be a "real bottle". Just because you can't catch anything in the bottle doesn't mean you never had it, it just means it is full.

A note about GS tokens: we ARE allowed to dupe as many as we want provided we get all real tokens too. In fact, we almost did this in the route, as we had 49 GS going into the house of skulltula and one more would save us a trip. Also see the Metroid Prime 2 100% run that hasn't gone up on the site yet (but was accepted), where the runner actualy gets 101% because he duped a missile expansion to save time on an early fight. Basically, extra glitched items are fine as long as you get the originals too. In this case, the "glitched" bottle we get replaces a bottle we already had. At the end of the run, it is indistinguishable from a normal bottle, just as getting gold gauntlets and skipping silver gauntlets is indistinguishable from getting both.

Finally, SDA takes most of its definitions from the communities, assuming there is a logical reason for them. There are much more hotly contested points, like whether or not a run should get all dungeon maps/compasses/boss keys, but in the end the community just had to choose a stance. To be honest, there is a bit of ends-justifying-means when creating rulesets, but that is just how it is.

[UchihaSasuke]

in the matter of getting bottles through glitches, wouldn't the poe bottle be also skippable if the 4th slot is filled with a RBAed bottle? it is basically the same logic used for the Ruto Bottle and the other items in that it only matters the end result and not the quest to obtain the item (the rest of the non-bottle items can't be RBAed but the bottles could be and you could create up to 2 or 3 so you only need one of the real ones)

that's why i assumed RBA was banned for 100%.

[Runnerguy2489]

hey this is my best and i'm kinda happy with it until someone beats it, it is definitely improvable by 2-3 seconds (notably i get hit by the jellyfish at the end and a couple backwalks could be better) but im sick of the luck in this segment. it's 4:45 from reset to save, which i think is a couple seconds slower than RG's test thing, but he does backwalks through bubbles that i refuse to even consider doing so whatever. the best i could imagine getting is 4:42.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teyoyjGqdfQ

I had posted in someone's stream chat about this segment submission but figured I'd post it here: The jellyfish hit here is really the biggest thing and it's pretty minor, right at the end, hard to avoid, and doesn't cost much time. I like this segment but would encourage people if they are still trying this segment to keep trying and use this as a bar to reach.

[RingRush]

in the matter of getting bottles through glitches, wouldn't the poe bottle be also skippable if the 4th slot is filled with a RBAed bottle? it is basically the same logic used for the Ruto Bottle and the other items in that it only matters the end result and not the quest to obtain the item (the rest of the non-bottle items can't be RBAed but the bottles could be and you could create up to 2 or 3 so you only need one of the real ones)

that's why i assumed RBA was banned for 100%.

1. In items you can duplicate (eg Gold Skulltula tokens, bottles), you must get all originals.
2. Your inventory screen at the end must be X,Y,Z.

Duplicating a bottle without getting the original first is banned. Duplicating a bottle if you have the original is fine.

[Serris]

As I said, I don't think the Ruto bottle is comparable to any other items. I don't see a reason to empty the milk bottle because it's fully functional already. And you keep saying it's fine to dupe over bottles you already got - that's just my point though; as long as you haven't shown the letter to KZ, it could be argued that you haven't gotten the bottle yet, but merely a quest item you have to trade in for the real bottle. Again, I'm not here to convince you of my interpretation, I just think you should discuss this over at SDA so you don't run into trouble when you try to submit.

Your examples about getting glitched Tokens and Metroid Prime 2 are unrelated to this, by the way. As long as you get all 100 legitimate Tokens, you can glitch as many additional ones as you want, and as long as the MP2 run gets all legitimate pickups, it can get as many glitched missile tanks as it wants. Interestingly though, even if you did get the real bottle from King Zora, I'm not sure you'd be allowed to dupe another empty bottle over it, since the rules state, as far as I remember, that you need to have all items and upgrades in your inventory at the end of the run, and duping would remove the real bottle. Thus, it's probably a better idea to empty all bottles as intended and not dupe empty ones over them - but that's another topic entirely and, again, I suggest clarifying this over at SDA.

[Pheenoh]

It could be argued that you haven't gotten the bottle yet, but merely a quest item you have to trade in for the real bottle.

Getting Ruto bottle isn't a quest dude...lol. I'm gonna go back to RingRush's point in which that's like saying you have to drink the milk to make it a bottle. The only way to access that bottle (normally) would be drinking the milk, then you can use it as a normal empty bottle; the only way you can access Ruto bottle (normally) is showing it to King Zora. Once it's in your inventory, (regardless of the state of the bottle) it's in there. So duping is fine.