Glitchless Big-Octo Skip Route/Rule Change

[dannyb21892]

Me and a few others recently rediscovered an old method of damage boosting across the gap to the blue switch near the elevator in Jabu.  It saves a very significant amount of time as you can watch in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXEHjmjsV2w

The big issue is that the glitchless rules ban skipping big-octo specifically.  The damage boost is fair game, we use it to get across gaps in shadow temple later.  But the rules say we can't skip this mini-boss.  I've been told that the Japanese bug-limit (glitchless) community voted on this several years ago and decided that the cutscenes associated with the Big-Octo room were too integral to the story to be skipped.  

Now that logic doesn't hold up for me.  We skip Goron Tunic for example, and the small goron gives us TONS of story material such as why we are supposed to go to the fire temple to begin with.  Talking to that Goron opens up Darunia's chamber and allows us to go learn Bolero and enter the temple.  However, the category never opens Darunia's room and instead accesses that half of the Crater with...you guessed it...a damage boost.  So in this instance we use a damage boost and skip extremely relevant story cutscenes and access an area before we are supposed to be able to do so.  Sounds to me like it's exactly the same as what I'm advocating we do in Jabu.

If it isn't the cutscenes that are the issue, but instead that we should not skip a mini-boss, I'd point out that we skip Dead Hand in Shadow in order to skip the hover boots in favor of...you guessed it...damage boosts.

Regardless of the original reasoning for this rule, I believe the glitchless community of runners has expanded so much in recent years that this rule deserves to be voted on again.  Voting in favor of skipping Big-Octo would not only make the route faster and more interesting, but it would also make the rules much less arbitrary and instead much more consistent with each other.

Now I don't know if this is an appropriate place to host such a vote, but I'd like to use this thread to do just that.  If you are a glitchless runner who has a time under 4 hours I'd love for you to reply with a vote in favor of skipping Big-Octo, or against.  It would also be great if you gave a short opinion as to why you voted as you did.  If you are a runner who has a time under 4:20:00 from any time in the last year, I'd also encourage you to vote.  I apologize if you don't meet the criteria.  A few of us decided these would be good rules to guarantee that knowledgable and active runners make up the majority of voters, as the glitchless leaderboards has many submissions from people who played a bit but never again.

If you've read this far, thanks a lot for your time!

Of course, I am casting my vote in favor of skipping Big-Octo, for all the reasons explained above.

[troblana]

Completely on board. The rule banning this is as you said, inconsistent, looking at other parts of the run. This change also makes the child dungeons route fun and refreshing, so it's hard to argue against that.

[MattyJ613]

Another argument against changing the rule that people have brought up is that apparently skipping Big Octo's room will result in it becoming glitched. This argument makes no sense considering skipping slingshot glitches the menu by putting bullet bag (50) in the top left slot of the equipment screen. Then after becoming an adult, it turns into hover boots. Considering how we don't even see Big Octo's room with this route, and we do see the glitched menu, the argument is invalid. Glitching aspects of the game that make no impact on the run is clearly accepted if you take into account what happens with the equipment screen.

I'm absolutely in favor of this rule change. I've always been happy with the glitchless/bug limit ruleset, but this one doesn't need to be there.

[Valientlink]

I like it, no reason to ban it imo. Adds a twist to the child route (and glitchless cd races)

[Retro]

Im not a glitchless runner so my opinion probably isnt worth that much but just wanted to say im on board with this damage boost being allowed as well.

[ZFG]

I'm indifferent to the issue, but I'd like to point out that this trick https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ji7WsZAc30 is currently banned and would likely save more time than big octo skip with chus (while also skipping less content), so this should also be taken into consideration.

[dannyb21892]

I'm indifferent to the issue, but I'd like to point out that this trick https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ji7WsZAc30 is currently banned and would likely save more time than big octo skip with chus (while also skipping less content), so this should also be taken into consideration.

That's a cool trick and I agree it should be considered. But I'd like to point out that the reason for my post isn't just to save time by changing rules. The bigocto skip ban in particular is inconsistent with the ruleset of the rest of the run, whereas resurrecting with the fairy is definitely new tech as far as the current rules are concerned. The inconsistency is what I mostly want to fix. The fact that it's faster is just a perk

[Sniping117]

Im for allowing the trick. If the JP runners dont agree, I think that most likely the same will result into having 2 different bug limit categories, as MM or TWW has.

[Jethro]

This skip should absolutely be allowed in Glitchless.

• It's faster.
• Requiring a cutscene for story continuity does not fall in line with the spirit of Glitchless any%.  The goal is to complete the game as fast as possible without glitches, not to experience the whole story.
• Other large story elements are skipped, making the argument of story continuity a poor one, if it even were relevant.
• Damage boosts and double damage boosts are already allowed and employed in similar ways.
• Significant portions of other temples are skipped.  Shadow: no hovers.  Water: fancy jumps are used to avoid many puzzles in the temple.
• This trick takes a boring portion of the run, makes it more exciting for the viewer and more technically interesting for the runner.
  
  

I will put a disclaimer here that although I am quite familiar with the glitchless run, I don't do the category often myself and agree that those who actively run it should have their opinions more heavily weighted.

-Jethro

[mrbubbleskp]

Its fine trick, but you only timed it based on getting chus first try. what happens if you get bad RNG. now you need to go back out and farm more rupees. But as far as the trick is concerned. I like it and it looks cool to not have to kill 3 tails. I guess its just a preference of what people like.. RNG or kill big octo.

[Jethro]

Its fine trick, but you only timed it based on getting chus first try. what happens if you get bad RNG. now you need to go back out and farm more rupees. But as far as the trick is concerned. I like it and it looks cool to not have to kill 3 tails. I guess its just a preference of what people like.. RNG or kill big octo.

It has been brought to attention that the trick can be done with just bombs.  This eliminates RNG element of Bombchu bowling.  Considering this, the damage boost is a clear timesave.

As seen here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXEHjmjsV2w
And here: http://www.twitch.tv/izu000/c/1502430?t=1m46s

Additionally, a reminder that the technique itself is allowed, as other damage boosts are already in the run.  The trick allowing the big-octo fight to be skipped is the point of contention.  So our focus should be on whether we are okay with skipping big-octo.  Not on the damage boost itself.

[troblana]

People seem to be completely missing the point here, so I'll try to just adress everything.

First of all, Nobody is claiming this is a "New" trick. It clearly says in the forum post too "rediscovered and old trick".

Secondly, wether this makes the route faster, easier, harder, longer, more interresting, less interresting, more fun to view, less fun to view, more fun to run, less fun to run is literally irrelevant. This is about an inconsistent rule that does not stand up to scrutiny.

Also wether this is brought up by old or new runners also is irrelevant to the point raised.

Can we please focus on the issue at hand: This rule is inconsistent with the rest of the ruleset and should be changed for that reason, and not because of anything else.

Thank you.

[cafde]

I haven't run this in a long time but I'll still give my opinion on the matter.

On the point of damage boost being allowed, this is fine. On the matter of mini boss being skipped, dead hand is already skipped. But, after thinking about it for a bit, the main difference between big octo being skipped and dead hand being skipped is that there is an integral part of the story being skipped. If big octo is skipped, how did ruto find the sapphire to give it to you in the first place?

The main argument here seems to be that by skipping goron tunic, a big part of the story where the small goron directs one to the fire temple and opens darunia's door for you, leading to bolero and the fire temple. From this precedent it should be ok to skip the big octo story then, right?

I'd like to mention that big octo skip was voted on previously prior to the vote on skipping goron tunic. From http://www34.atwiki.jp/ootglitchless/pages/15.html#id_6c73cc31 it can be seen that big octo skip was voted down on a 3-11 vote, whereas from http://www34.atwiki.jp/ootglitchless/pages/19.html#id_0db69226 going through darunia's door was voted in on a 6-3 majority (I was actually in this vote and voted against it). The odd thing is, some people voted against big octo skip initially because it skipped a mini boss, and yet skipping a mini boss to skip hover boots was never voted on but people just started doing it.

The problem I have here is that some opinions on darunia's door relied on false ideas of the door not being loaded and, even though it is possible to do it in a normal play through with scarecrow's song and longshot, sets a bad precedent that it's alright to skip certain things even though no glitches are involved. Take for example going to spirit temple early as child, by the logic presented here it is alright to cucco jump, go through the one-sided collision of the fortress wall, and go through the wasteland without lense, all things presently allowed but early spirit as child is specifically banned for similar reasons mentioned. So should this also be allowed now? Where should the line be drawn?

So with that I say I am against allowing big octo skip. I would honestly like if some of these other questionable things were re-polled like darunia's door and volvagia with bombs but things that will make it slower probably have no chance of being re-voted on. Because of this, I hope caution is taken when voting because it will be incredibly hard to take back something like this after it's already allowed.

[dannyb21892]

I 100% agree with everything Cafde has said aside from his vote itself.  Goron Tunic skip, big-octo skip and Spirit early as child are three things that are all very similar. I might suggest drawing the line at spirit early because you must take Link into an out-of-bounds area to get there as seen in this video.  The fact that the wall has no collision from the back would have been ok as set by the darunia door precedent (and kokiri forest's bridge clip too).  But being out-of-bounds makes that trick crossing the line IMO, and, in fact the current rules specifically state being out of bounds is disallowed.

As for the two remaining points: I'd say big-octo skip and Goron Tunic skip are virtually identical and should either both be banned or both be allowed.  Obviously I'd prefer they both be allowed since it would be more fun, but as long as the rules make some semblance of sense I will be satisfied.

[troblana]

I 100% agree with everything Cafde has said aside from his vote itself.  Goron Tunic skip, big-octo skip and Spirit early as child are three things that are all very similar. I might suggest drawing the line at spirit early because you must take Link into an out-of-bounds area to get there as seen in this video.  The fact that the wall has no collision from the back would have been ok as set by the darunia door precedent (and kokiri forest's bridge clip too).  But being out-of-bounds makes that trick crossing the line IMO, and, in fact the current rules specifically state being out of bounds is disallowed.

As for the two remaining points: I'd say big-octo skip and Goron Tunic skip are virtually identical and should either both be banned or both be allowed.  Obviously I'd prefer they both be allowed since it would be more fun, but as long as the rules make some semblance of sense I will be satisfied.

Yes! That's what this will come down to I feel. Allow both, or ban both, to keep it consistent with itself.