Jimbalicious
Deku Scrub
Posts: 3
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« on: July 03, 2015, 06:47:38 PM » |
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Some points to get the debate started I guess
For: 1) It's an officially approved function on official hardware/software- therefore different than a PJ64 savestate which is entirely unofficial and could be tampered with
2) It would cost time to create and restore a savepoint-therefore it would be faster to not create one Against: 1) Precedence: other gaming communities who've faced this dilemma agreed to not use savepoints. This is somewhat arbitrary as each community has different rulesets anyways, such as when to start/end timer and whether to use IGT or RTA
2) Savepoints are unfair to those on official consoles which don't have that function Each official console has its own unique 'advantage'
3) Savepoints go against the principle of a speedrun/ it's practically a TAS Probably the strongest argument, however you won't get a good run creating savepoints at every obstacle and restoring when you mess up and again it does waste precious time to create and restore one.
Please keep this as an open minded debate and not a flamefest, a community is only as civilized as its members
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Apasher
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« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2015, 07:30:37 PM » |
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I am against the usage of Wii U savestates in runs simply because it's an external (out of game) feature that cannot be done on the original console.
I don't think the "official" argument would work for most cases. If Nintendo officially released cheat codes for the game, would you allow them for speedruns? The line has to be drawn somewhere. Imo, the "official" argument only works for allowing a specific version of the game for speedruns (though it still shouldn't excuse it for being an inaccurate emulator)
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« Last Edit: July 05, 2015, 05:18:32 PM by Apasher »
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Jimbalicious
Deku Scrub
Posts: 3
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« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2015, 07:36:38 PM » |
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Purely because argument Against 3) "It's practically a TAS", I feel savepoints shouldn't be allowed.
Despite other consoles having their own advantages, the ability to stop and save the game at any point/location including those you'd normally be unable to such as cutscenes, is an external function as Apasher pointed out above, and not one inherent to Ocarina of Time. I feel they shouldn't be allowed and would only lead to more chaos/drama or a special savestate category which is just silly.
So I'm against
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« Last Edit: July 03, 2015, 08:49:39 PM by Jimbalicious »
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Jimbalicious
Deku Scrub
Posts: 3
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« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2015, 07:37:39 PM » |
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Good point Apashi, I agree. Your external function argument is strong.
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« Last Edit: July 03, 2015, 07:39:12 PM by Jimbalicious »
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quo
Regular Guay
Posts: 35
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« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2015, 07:54:56 PM » |
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Adding to what Apache said, it's an external function, whether on the original console or not should not be used, same case for why crooked cart is banned
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aterraformer
Deku Scrub
Posts: 16
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« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2015, 11:27:26 PM » |
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Savestates are lamestates ![](https://static-cdn.jtvnw.net/emoticons/v1/28087/3.0)
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Apasher
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« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2015, 03:48:21 AM » |
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Adding to what Apache said, it's an external function, whether on the original console or not should not be used, same case for why crooked cart is banned
The thing is, resetting is technically an external function, but that function is part of the console itself. Crooked cart isn't a function of the console. It's straight up hardware manipulation. I said "original console" because the only two external functions of the N64 are: booting the game, and resetting the game.
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Luoth
Deku Scrub
Posts: 2
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« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2015, 11:42:43 PM » |
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I agree with Apasher, and am against the usage of the savepoints. It could be useful for practice, like the savestates on emulator, but I wouldn't wanna see it used in runs.
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Tompa
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« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2015, 09:02:25 AM » |
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Nice for practice, never to be used in a run. Period.
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May the Triforce be with you.
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Sniping117
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« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2015, 01:07:01 PM » |
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If you need savestates during an actual run, can you even call yourself an actual speedrunner?
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nighthawkraven18
Regular Guay
Posts: 23
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« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2015, 06:45:55 PM » |
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well if you're so good sniping, i'd like to see you do crazy% no savestates.
Kappa
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mzxrules
Admin
Ultimate Mega Guay
Posts: 901
Wrong warp expert
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« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2015, 05:25:18 AM » |
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I banned it because I dislike pause buffering.
I can't think of any place where a competent player would be able to use it to save time outside of rng manipulation, and even then you'd still have to grind out the result you wanted.
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Braid This is art because the music is classical music, and the graphics are done with a pen. The story is something about a woman. I could not understand much of this to be honest, which makes it even more likely to be an art.
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TheCowness
Deku Scrub
Posts: 13
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« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2015, 08:36:22 PM » |
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I don't know how Dampe's RNG works, but if you can manipulate it by saving right before talking to him or before selecting "Yes", then a runner would probably save before him if Wii U were otherwise faster for 100%. Creating and loading a restore point would be faster than jumping in the grave and pulling both tombstones.
I don't think the save state feature would be considered when deciding which console to run on, but if you're already on Wii U, I think you'd use it for RNG situations like that. Not that OoT really has any more sections like that.
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mzxrules
Admin
Ultimate Mega Guay
Posts: 901
Wrong warp expert
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« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2015, 10:28:06 PM » |
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making an educated guess here, the game probably determines what item to give just a little before it has to actually materialize on screen, well after you lose control of Link. Furthermore, you have no guarantee that any set of actions will 100% award you the heart piece because you'd have to know the state of the rng seed, which is constantly changing due to various factors. How fast is reloading the save state vs resetting dampe?
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Braid This is art because the music is classical music, and the graphics are done with a pen. The story is something about a woman. I could not understand much of this to be honest, which makes it even more likely to be an art.
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nighthawkraven18
Regular Guay
Posts: 23
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« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2015, 05:00:29 AM » |
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So creating a restore point is about 8.10 seconds from pressing the menu button to return to gameplay. Loading a state is about 5.6 seconds from menu to gameplay. From the dig spot to the grave and back to the dig spot is about 11 Seconds.
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