Discussing Possible Topics for Change

[Deln]

i wouldnt call a RNG moment a "hard trick".

[oseabass]

And whatever the community decides I'll back them, regardless whether or not I agree with it

If I had to make a final opinion mine would be this:

• Allow it in S/Q.

It allows the routes to differ.
It IMHO is no way in question of "OOB" or not since you can S/Q past it.
If you don't want to do the trick... don't do it.
(To be blunt no one really runs this anyway, so it doesn't affect anyone)

• DO NOT allow in No S/Q (main)

The question of it being an OoB is scaring enough people and makes me question it a little (needing PoP).
I haven't done runs because I don't know if I should start learning/working on this trick or not.  I'd like to get this finalized so I can have a clear ruling.
Our community would blow up a bit because so many people would leave over a trick.

• I will abstain from ruling on LA original since I don't really play that game, it is its own beast now.

My worry is that some day there will be a more consistent setup found, and then we have to have this entire discussion again.  I for one don't want to do it, but I am ok with my time not being "WR" because I didn't do an impossible trick.  If someone wants to grind it and take that time... good for them.  The game needs dedication and commitment.  A WR isn't free, it shouldn't be.  Even with the trick, someone still needs a LOT of other things to fall into place to get a very solid time.

TLDR
Allow in S/Q.  Variety is cool, no one runs it anyway....
Ban in No S/Q.  So many people don't want it, we don't want to scare away the world.
Harumph.

[Flynn]

If Zorlax isn't a cheater I will eat my hat on stream. Stop being a bitch and play your videogame.

wat

[mabdulra]

I know this will be an unpopular opinion, but I like the idea of either allowing it in both s+q and no s+q, or disallowing it in both categories. Again, this is really just about people not liking the trick, so category ruleset doesn't so much matter. I also think that allowing it in s+q but banning it in no s+q would make s+q an even more dead category than it already is. Based on how many people said they'd stop running if this was allowed, what DX runners would actually run s+q seriously now and do this trick (special case being drenn). Most people won't entirely based on the fact that they can just run no s+q, because the route is still largely the same and they get a 'get out of jail free' card for a difficult trick because they just happen to belong to the majority category of the community.

I would still run it, but using the JRTA ruleset so that I may submit my time to the Nico leaderboards. It would still qualify as S+Q for ZSR, but of course would not be WR. I don't know if the Nico community allows the trick or not. Our decision shouldn't be based on theirs, but I'm curious to find out. I'll inquire further with pui.

[ZorlaxSeven]

If Zorlax isn't a cheater I will eat my hat on stream. Stop being a bitch and play your videogame.

Get your taco sauce ready.




Also, in the same vein as Seabass, I'll make my opinion clear.

Ban Walrus Skip.

[oseabass]

Ban Walrus skip in No S/Q main category for LADX.  We are all saying pretty much the same thing and just wasting time at this point.  We as a consensus don't want it in the main category for "reasons".

Someone with powers make a note in the rules that it is NOT allowed in No S/Q.  We are all beating around the bush a bunch and I think we need to make a decision and live with it or we will "argue" forever and the community will get even more tired of it.

BAN IT.  End of discussion.

(PS If you are mad at me, I'll take the heat.  None of us are standing up and saying close discussion.  If people wanna be mad at someone for closing it, yell to me.... I can take it)

-Dad Bass

[Flynn]

The dad bass is harsh but fair.

The ruling has been passed.

So say we all.

[Marinsgloryhole]

and just what the fuck do you propose to do about me beating the record with walrus skip?

jesus christ

'this trick is too hard and I don't want to learn it lets ban it'

I should link this thread to naegleria I'm sure he'd enjoy it

[oseabass]

and just what the fuck do you propose to do about me beating the record with walrus skip?

jesus christ

'this trick is too hard and I don't want to learn it lets ban it'

I should link this thread to naegleria I'm sure he'd enjoy it

If you want to put the time in to grind out a run that can beat the current record, and has this RNG in it... go for it.  I will gladly watch the run and clap at it.  If you want to run the game a certain way... run it that way.

[Marinsgloryhole]

If you want to put the time in to grind out a run that can beat the current record, and has this RNG in it... go for it.  I will gladly watch the run and clap at it.  If you want to run the game a certain way... run it that way.

I hope you understand that this post directly contradicts your prior statement decisively 'banning' the trick

[mabdulra]

Seabass, LA doesn't have a No S+Q category, nor do I really think it should. In that regard there should be no issue with Walrus Skip because you will S+Q upon getting the key, as opposed to having to get PoP in order to get back.

It sounds like we are currently deciding that the ban for the No S+Q category is specifically because we have determined that the clip to get through the Walrus with PoP is an OOB, which is not allowed in the current category definitions. Deloading the Walrus itself is fine; the main issue comes from the return. This is why it's allowed in S+Q and not in No S+Q. I'd rather use that argument than a "runners didn't want it" argument since it feels closer to the category definition, but the end result is still the same in regards to whether or not it's allowed to be used in runs.

[Flynn]

I'd rather use that argument than a "runners didn't want it" argument since it feels closer to the category definition, but the end result is still the same in regards to whether or not it's allowed to be used in runs.

The issue with this is it doesn't carry too much weight when the people behind decisively banning walrus skip have stated multiple times before that they feel its legal by our ruleset.

With this being said, walrus skip is dead. Bass has spoken.

[ZorlaxSeven]

Bass has spoken.

Bass has spoken.

[LoenP]

I agree with Zorlax's snippet on this Walrus Skip talk has completely hijacked the general discussion of consolidating and reconsidering the ruleset. I'd like to remind everyone that even when this is sorted out, there's still some discussion to be hard on that subject The prospect of morphing the categories to allow for a more diverse grouping of runs and rulesets is exciting since the game has been very largely unchanged in the 1.5 years I've been running it.

Sometimes it's hard (re: laziness) to remember what I've posted here and in skype where much of the discussion has been going on but I'll just summarize how I feel, although the matter has been decided upon typing this.

I agree with Flynn in that it blatantly seems much of the talk on this constituting an OoB movement has little to do with keeping the ruleset consistent and more with people wanting to frame the argument to make it disallowed because they don't want to have to learn and do attempts of it in an RTA setting. I don't really agree with the arguments that it should or will keep people out of the community by allowing it as not wanting to do the trick is as simple a matter as just not doing it. As is I doubt many (or even more than a few) would opt for even attempting the trick in serious RTA, and by no means is doing it a "free" wr or ride to the top of the leaderboards. To parrot seabass, frankly if someone puts in the grind time on such a low% success trick and gets it + the run together to top the times I think they've earned it.

Personally, barring a certain trick simply because "I don't want to" isn't something I'm a fan of, and is reminiscent of the Paper Mario "All Cards" and DK64 Helm Early drama events. Saying the stance on it would be reconsidered if a method was found to make it simpler/easier is worse.  But again like seabass said, I'll go with what the community wants to do as a general vote and this decision is already made. I'll probably mess around with it and probably do runs with the trick regardless, as I did back when I wanted to run on J when everyone else did English; if it remains banned they simply won't be submitted.

That's how I feel on the issue, which has since been sorted on skype (and here after refreshing the page).

[mabdulra]

For clarification, Bass has spoken and that's okay with me. I'm okay with the decision as well. I'm simply justifying that decision based on what constitutes OOB rather than personal disdain for the trick. Though perhaps it is easier to justify it because Bass has spoken.

I think we need a BassHasSpoken ffz emote now.