Discussing Possible Topics for Change

[ZorlaxSeven]

I also did some "testing" (really just muckin' around) right now. If you fight the turtle head, you will also notice that his hitbox is only in his nose. (You can test this out by trying to "poke" his eye while fighting him. It doesn't work, damage only happens at the base of the nose.) Still, it can be open for discussion.

[Tompa]

And yes, Turtle, Armos, Goponga Flowers and the flowers are all the same. They are all clipped through their tops, as the hitboxes isn't stretched out completely. For the walrus it is stretched up a bit further. Likely because you would otherwise be able to simply walk through it into the Desert with a wallclip. It's otherwise the same kind of sprite object as the above mentioned ones (Before they are activated).

Here are two things you can have open for discussion too. First one being that you can shoot through blocks while they are moving, something it seemed like people didn't know about... Second is just the same kind of glitch used for Frog Song Skip. But are you allowed to use it to go through other blocks that won't take you to a new screen (Based on one of the definitions in the topic). Each time you clip you are clipped three pixels in to the block. Which would technically mean you are allowed to do it once but not more. Or...?

http://youtu.be/Zx6O3l7Xe1c

[Flynn]

Out of curiosity, what applications would that hookshot clip have in a run? Besides the shown clip in D7.

[captain_mop]

Was there reason for banning OoB other than wrong warping? If not, then could we just give a clear definition to wrong warping?
This would allow small time saver tricks like walk on ceiling, Randu method flame thrower skip, and the block skip shown by Tompa. It would also allow for larger riskier time saver tricks like frog song skip.

Flynn: another flame thrower skip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvsnDqG1dZo

[Flynn]

I completely forgot about that skip, it looks so swag.

[Tompa]

Flynn: It was basically just showing off the trick for this discussion of "OoB". It doesn't really have a use anywhere.

And yeah, the video Captain posted is another good example for this. Something which I think should be allowed as well.

[mabdulra]

What is the current Any% No Wrong Warp route? It's not a category on ZSR, but if I'm not mistaken, allowing OoB sans restriction will enable you to beat the game in under 30 minutes, no Doghouse or Wrong Warping involved. That's part of why I'm uncomfortable with embracing the stuff seen in the video, but I am okay with us trying to come up with a solid definition for what constitutes OoB fully. The problem is some things in the current route may fall under the OoB definition we come up with as well. Unfortunately this is one of those games where we need to come up with a pretty arbitrary ruleset simply because our Any% is as short as it is.

Can somebody link a video of this Ceiling bug we're talking about? I sadly have never seen it.

[captain_mop]

walk on ceiling: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gt9X8UpZ7Bw . It only saves about 5 seconds unless you use the glitch elsewhere to ww, like so: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_b5moECt00

What OoB trick allows you to beat the game in under 30 minutes without ww?

[Tompa]

Can somebody link a video of this Ceiling bug we're talking about? I sadly have never seen it.

You (And everyone else) should watch Swordless' TAS .

[mabdulra]

walk on ceiling: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gt9X8UpZ7Bw . It only saves about 5 seconds unless you use the glitch elsewhere to ww, like so: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_b5moECt00

What OoB trick allows you to beat the game in under 30 minutes without ww?

Sweet, so I knew about that but didn't realize it was named that.
The current No WW route uses that second trick, actually. The full route is here: http://pastebin.com/9Zuew1cK

Part of the logic there is that you aren't warping since you aren't hitting any warp tiles except for the one into Dethyl's room. However, that is the intended warp and not a wrong warp. Warp data, by the way, is as follows:

• D401: 00 - Overworld, 01 - Dungeon, 02 - Sidescrolling, FF - Corrupted (this is what happens in Doghouse if you set warp on one screen and then leave to a screen without a warp)
• D402: In-Game Map, list here: http://www.zeldaspeedruns.com/la/doghouse/in-game-maps (I need to update this again)
• D403: Room number
• D404: X Position for Link
• D405: Y Position for Link

If we go with Tompa's proposed definitions for OOB, that route would be invalidated because Tompa's definition states that going from one dungeon into another should be considered OOB.
Tompa, you had a ruleset you wrote up for the new TAS, correct? Can you post that here, please? I think it'd be very useful.

[Tompa]

I don't use the term "out of bounds" when making up the rules for the TAS. It's an arbitary name that I don't like using.

But I already posted my definition in the topic:

"Main category: "No Wrong Warping". This includes going from one cave/dungeon into a different cave/dungeon. This will allow Frog Song Skip, but ban the type when you get on top of the ceiling in a cave to walk to a different cave, such as the old Walrus skip method. And obviously banning Doghouse and the methods of screen warping in LA and LADX."

[Drenn]

You know, if we go with Tompa's definition, we could always rename the old "no WW" route to "no doghouse" or something like that. That's basically what the current WW definition is, aside from the fact that we lumped the d7 -> d8 warp in with it.

I'm curious as to what ruleset the japanese runners use. A rule change could make our S+Q categories very different.

[Flynn]

Mab, the no WW route is 20 minutes long.

http://www.twitch.tv/flynngaming/c/5195925

Awful run, but you get the point. Game gets broken open after D2.

[mabdulra]

I'm curious as to what ruleset the japanese runners use. A rule change could make our S+Q categories very different.

From the Japanese ruleset: http://www40.atwiki.jp/niconamarta/pages/135.html
I'll try my best to translate...

ALLOWED
S+Q
Death
Thief
Hookshot Jumping
Final Boss 3rd Form (Moldorm) Stunlocking (I think that's what it means?)

DISALLOWED
Screen scroll bug
Doghouse Glitch
Tunic Glitch
Slipping through rocks diagonally (i.e. what was shown as a means of skipping Flamethrower)
Version specific bugs:
v1.0: (something about jumping between different levels of height?)
v1.0: Using items in Mambo's room to shorten time, items that don't shorten time are allowed
v1.0: Making Link invincible (huh?)
v1.0: Freezing Blocks (guess my JP PB is now invalid lol.....)
v1.1: Skipping dialogue on Final Boss (what is this?)

Then they list some "TAS"-only strats that are "obviously" banned.

I don't think we should worry about their rules, in all honesty.

[Drenn]

v1.0: Making Link invincible (huh?)

Guess I really wasn't the first to find that trick with the hookshot, lol

v1.1: Skipping dialogue on Final Boss (what is this?)

Might be related to the thing which softlocks the game 99% of the time if you pause before the text?