What counts as a Wrong Warp?

[nathanisbored]

While trying to organize stuff on ZSR, I realized I wasn't sure if the Entrance Point Glitch should go in the "Techniques" section or the "Wrong Warp" section. Then I was wondering if it's allowed in no WW categories or not.

Void Warp is banned, and void warp simply uses the wrong coordinates as it loads a new area (and wrong map number). By this same logic, entrance point glitch also uses the wrong coordinates when it reloads an area. The difference is that you can only modify the coordinates for EPG by a small radius from the door, so it's not as dramatic of a void warp. However, it can still be used to get out of bounds, and you can even store the glitched coordinates into FW.

In my opinion, the big problem is that the term Wrong Warp is a broad term that essentially refers to a trick (in any game) that can warp you to a different place than intended while spawning into an area. What that actually means is probably different on a game by game basis, but as far as oot goes, the problem is that we use the same term to describe a specific type of wrong warp.

So when you say "wrong warp is banned" it isn't clear whether you're saying wrong warp as in blue warp cutscene skips in deku/dc/fire (cutscene offset wrong warps), or wrong warp as in anything that falls under the broader category of Wrong Warp.

When you do a blue warp cs skip in any dungeon, you push in a new entrance after the game has prepared the dungeon completed flag. However, this flag doesn't actually get set until you load a new scene. This flag tells the game to not play that cutscene again, and also to give you the quest item for that dungeon. This flag does not affect where you end up however. This flag also determines whether to go to chamber of sages/other immediate cutscene, or simply place you on the warp song pad outside the dungeon.

Trying to wrong warp in a dungeon where the "dungeon completed" flag has already been set, actually does have a side effect. It causes the screen to flash, and temporarily disables loading zones.


All of this being said, I don't really want to change the current rules for anything, or at least that isn't the point here. My agenda really has more to do with just about figuring out how to organize pages on ZSR. The main thing to take away from this from what I can tell is that we need a way to distinguish the broader category of Wrong Warp from the specific type of wrong warp that uses cutscene offsets.

So what do people have to say about all this stuff? What counts as a wrong warp and what doesn't? Did I explain anything wrong? How should we organize this information? etc.

[chasetopher]

Pardon my ignorance, but aren't cutscene skips in temples like Shadow and Spirit fundamentally the same as cutscene offset wrong warps in Deku, DC, and Fire? They're considered "wrong warps" by the ZSR definition of No RBA/WW. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the Shadow and Spirit cutscene skips simply "cutscene offset wrong warps" with a cutscene offset of 0? Thus when you change the "base index" to the entrance of the dungeon by dying, that's exactly where you end up, since there's no offset to add.

I'm sorry that this probably doesn't answer your question, I've just always wanted some clarification on this. That is, all "blue warp cutscene skips" are fundamentally the same, but some (Deku, DC, Fire) have a non-zero cutscene offset which spawn you at a different entrance, which is more in the spirit of the general term "wrong warp".

[quo]

A wrong warp is anything that isn't developer intended #Kappa

But seriously, the easiest way to classify a wrong warp imo if we're adding EPG is do you end up where you should after (re)loading an area? EPG puts you in a different location, blue warp WWs put you in a different area, void warp puts you in the area with the wrong coordinates (or wrong coordinates with the right area if you want to look at it that way) and things like Spirit CS skip put you at the beginning of the temple instead of the warp song pad.

[nathanisbored]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the Shadow and Spirit cutscene skips simply "cutscene offset wrong warps" with a cutscene offset of 0?

Not quite, from what I understand. If the game knows it's gonna play a cutscene, it adds 4 to the base entrance. This takes it to the cutscene setups index for that area. From there it adds an additional offset value, to determine which cutscene.

So in Fire Temple, it prepares to load (the main entrance of) Kakariko Village. Then, when the scene transition actually takes place, it adds 4 to the kakariko entrance to reach the cutscene setup index for kakariko. Then it adds 3 to get to cutscene #3, which is the eruption cutscene.

In Water Temple, it prepares to load a specific entrance in Chamber of Sages. Then when the scene transition actually takes place, it loads that entrance in chamber of sages. Nothing special really (except it also sets the dungeon completion flag, but it would have done that anyway).

The difference with Fire is that it takes you directly into a cutscene, whereas when you go to Chamber of Sages, it just plays a walk-in triggered cutscene after Link descends (I think).

The adding 4 is what actually makes the wrong warp happen. In oot3d, death hole wrong warping tells the game to add 4 to every entrance you enter, but it doesn't add anything else.

[nathanisbored]

But seriously, the easiest way to classify a wrong warp imo if we're adding EPG is do you end up where you should after (re)loading an area? EPG puts you in a different location, blue warp WWs put you in a different area, void warp puts you in the area with the wrong coordinates (or wrong coordinates with the right area if you want to look at it that way) and things like Spirit CS skip put you at the beginning of the temple instead of the warp song pad.

That was basically my understanding of it as well. But for example, if you OI on a blue warp, and then go through a door before it fades out, it takes you to the entrance of the door, not the blue warp. But that isn't a wrong warp. That's just leaving the area before the blue warp finishes animating. You could argue that since you stepped into the blue warp, you were supposed to end up in the cutscene, after the next scene transition. And since you ended up somewhere else then you were supposed to, it's a wrong warp.

This is why it's necessary to explain that you are overwriting a coordinate or entrance when you wrong warp. If you just leave the room early, you haven't overwritten anything.

Also, if you die in the minuet of forest cutscene, you could argue that the death didn't place you at the coordinate where you should be at the end of the cutscene, it placed you at your last entrance. This is why it's necessary to explain that a wrong warp only happens if the intended location is determined during a scene transition.

Given these clarifications, I would say EPG should count.

[Apasher]

In my opinion, if void warp falls under the "wrong warp" category, then EPG should too for the sake of consistency of the broad definition of wrong warp that we seem to use.

[chasetopher]

Not quite, from what I understand. If the game knows it's gonna play a cutscene, it adds 4 to the base entrance. This takes it to the cutscene setups index for that area. From there it adds an additional offset value, to determine which cutscene.

So in Fire Temple, it prepares to load (the main entrance of) Kakariko Village. Then, when the scene transition actually takes place, it adds 4 to the kakariko entrance to reach the cutscene setup index for kakariko. Then it adds 3 to get to cutscene #3, which is the eruption cutscene.

In Water Temple, it prepares to load a specific entrance in Chamber of Sages. Then when the scene transition actually takes place, it loads that entrance in chamber of sages. Nothing special really.

The difference with Fire is that it takes you directly into a cutscene, whereas when you go to Chamber of Sages, it just plays a walk-in triggered cutscene after Link descends (I think).

The adding 4 is what actually makes the wrong warp happen. In oot3d, death hole wrong warping tells the game to add 4 to every entrance you enter, but it doesn't add anything else.

So perhaps "cutscene offset of 0" was not correct and what I meant to say is something like a "null" cutscene offset. So for Water Temple, the "base entrance" is set to a specific index in the Chamber of Sages, and the cutscene offset is "null", thus 4 is not added to the first index, the cutscene pointer is not relevant, and medallion giving cutscene is triggered by "walking in" to the Chamber of Sages, instead of a cutscene setup entrance.

[nathanisbored]

So perhaps "cutscene offset of 0" was not correct and what I meant to say is something like a "null" cutscene offset. So for Water Temple, the "base entrance" is set to a specific index in the Chamber of Sages, and the cutscene offset is "null", thus 4 is not added to the first index, the cutscene pointer is not relevant, and medallion giving cutscene is triggered by "walking in" to the Chamber of Sages, instead of a cutscene setup entrance.

This is a very odd way to put it, but I suppose that's true, in the same sense that leaving Link's House sets the next entrance as his balcony, and adds a non-existent pointer with a value of 0.

[mzxrules]

0 is correct though, the next cutscene number variable is set the same if you were to travel to the Chamber of Sages as if you weren't. This is actually a different value than what could be interpreted as being null (the value defaults to FFEF on every scene change).

I want to point out that at this time I still don't understand how Chamber of Sages cutscenes are triggered.

[nathanisbored]

0 is correct though, the next cutscene number variable is set the same if you were to travel to the Chamber of Sages as if you weren't. This is actually a different value than what could be interpreted as being null (the value defaults to FFEF on every scene change).

I want to point out that at this time I still don't understand how Chamber of Sages cutscenes are triggered.

Ah well, this is good to know. But I suppose this means that there is a distinction between a blue warp cs skip from deku/dc/fire and a blue warp cs skip from other dungeons. However, I guess this distinction actually doesn't matter when defining wrong warp anyway, because both glitches are overwriting an entrance value.

[r0bd0g]

The only logic I can think of for void warp, wrong warp, and blue warp cs skips all being banned under "no wrong warp" is if you consider that they are all side-effects of the same glitch: interrupting one loading zone with another.

So I'd say EPG is fine for no WW? But I'd be wary of, like, doing death hole in no WW and then going into another loading zone after, even though there are no side-effects from that.

[nathanisbored]

The only logic I can think of for void warp, wrong warp, and blue warp cs skips all being banned under "no wrong warp" is if you consider that they are all side-effects of the same glitch: interrupting one loading zone with another.

I actually like this simplified interpretation better. But when you a do a void warp in, say, the tower collapse, the entrance value that the void wants to use was set way back when you first spawned. It wasn't pushed in by the game at the last minute, or modified at any point after entering the scene, and before leaving (like with what you mentioned with death hole). The only thing that makes it abnormal is that you push in a new entrance after the game has decided your coordinates and map number (assuming I understand this correctly).

But there are other void warp methods, where the game decides an entrance at the last minute which you then overwrite. So just saying "wrong warp overwrites an entrance value that the game pushed in at the last minute" isn't enough. Even when the game doesn't set an entrance value during the fadeout/scene transition, you can still wrong warp by pushing a new entrance in after the coordinates/map have been decided. Either way, this definition would not include EPG, however, it would include the screen flash effect that happens if you try wrong warping from a dungeon that has been completed. After all, that is just as much of a wrong warp as blue warp cs skips in most dungeons are.

So assuming we use this definition, where do we put EPG on the site? Given that the wrong warps section deals with coordinates and respawn points and such, it would certainly fit in that section. But it could still go in Techniques, with links and references to relevant info in the Wrong Warp section. So ultimately it comes down to what would make more sense to someone browsing the site. What section would they think to look under when they want information about the trick?

There's still one more thing to discuss that I consider an issue. If we organize different WW-like tricks in the same section, even though they are preformed differently and have different effects, I think they should have different names just for the sake of explaining them.

So under the Wrong Warp section, we would essentially have:

WRONG WARP
-Wrong Warp (deku/dc/fire with cutscene values and offsets and pointers and such)
-Blue Warp CS skips (other dungeons without cutscene offsets and stuff, also includes screen flash effect for when the dungeon is already complete)
-Void Warp (using coordinates from a void out or FW with an entrance from something else)
-Other (such as overwriting a death hole entrance with something else, even though there aren't side effects)

The obvious problem above is that we use the same name for deku/dc/fire cutscene-based stuff as we do for the section as a whole. It would probably be good to call this type of wrong warp by a different name altogether. Even though it's what most people think of with the term wrong warp, the fact is that that term also includes things like void warp, so we need to make that distinction by name when explaining stuff on ZSR. Also the name "Blue Warp Cutscene Skip" is big and ugly imo.

Whether or not EPG should count in an actual speedrun I guess is still a debate, but I'm now leaning toward not counting it.

[natalyahasdied]

agree with what r0b said, entrance point glitch is loading the same overall scenes it's not loading different ones, it's also not loading more than one thing at the same time

[Jbop]

Almost skipped all of this because I don't have much time, but what r0b said. I wouldn't consider EPG a wrong warp. Also I think we should simply call the deku/dc/fire warps cutscene wrong warps to distinguish them from the other varieties.

[mzxrules]

agree with what r0b said, entrance point glitch is loading the same overall scenes it's not loading different ones, it's also not loading more than one thing at the same time

I've never liked the "load more than one thing at a time" explanation. There isn't much difference between EPG and Void warp if you backtracked into the "wrong room" and went back to your return point.