What is a glitch? / Glitchless RTA runs

[Skyreon]

Oh man here we go.

First of all I was not sure where to place this post but after some search I ultimately decided to make it a topic of its own. If you think this should be placed somewhere else then please redirect me; this is my first ZSR forum post.

A couple of months back I routed and did a any% glitchless run just to get a rough idea of how long the game is casually. The run I did was embarrassingly bad and I've wanted to improve it ever since, however I thought I should ask the community through a official post what should be allowed and what shouldn't. When I did my run I didn't do any glitches, sequence breaks, tricks or skips.
Here is the video: http://www.twitch.tv/skyreon/c/2601787

I heard Mofat originally had plans to do a glitchless run but participated in the no s+q hype when that category came to life. As far as I'm concerned no TP runners have finished a glitchless run yet, so I might be the only one (besides Let's Players rofl). I have no right to chose what is allowed and what isn't; that's up to the community which is why I am making this thread.


What I did in my run:
-Got the wooden sword and taught the kids combat
-Saved all of the monkeys in Forest Temple
-Received mail in Hyrule Field omw to Kakariko
-Completed Goron Mines without any LJAs
-Cleared Lanayru Twilight
-Emptied regular bombs during escort
-Bought water bombs from Barnes
-Kakariko Graveyard to Lake Hylia waterway shortcut
-Lakebed Temple w/o any LJAs or clips (Although I did use the Iron Boots to eliminate Morpheel shaking me off)
-Midna's Desperate Hour
-Master Sword
-Auru's memo
-Warped the Eldin bridge piece (I forgot to do this at first but it was the intended route)
-Completed Arbiter's Grounds w/o the wolf clip and chandellier LJA, only did a save warp after Spinner
-Used the Spinner to activate the Mirror cutscene to warp normally
-Got Ashei's sketch and showed it to Ralis
-Fished the Reekfish and got the scent
-Did Snowpeak w/o any LJAs or Freezard skips
-Entered Sacred Grove using the golden cucco
-Completed ToT w/o the gate skip (Clawshot target) and pot skip (where you stand on the switch and roll as the gate closes), however I did do the 'cutscene climb'  where I rolled onto the platform to skip bringing another small statue. I also did the backhop method with the big statue on the weights and made the statue fall down instead of using the lift in the big room where the poe is behind bars. Debatable
-Got Renaldo's letter and delivered it to Telma
-Doctor, medicine scent, Telma's cat, totem pole (I had to wait until night. This may be possible to fix with a proper route?)
-Showed the totem to Ilia and headed to Hidden Village
-Completed the Ancient Sky Book side quest
-Completed CitS w/o ANY LJAs since I had not used it as a time saver earlier in the run, no cutscene skip on the ledge/Peahat B slash also no flame skip on Argorok Highly debatable
-Completed Palace of Twilight w/o any LJAs
-Completed Hyrule Castle w/o any barrier skips


What I considered to not include in the run:
-LJAs w/ and w/o Boomerang that will skip a part of the game (Sword and shield skip, Forest Temple LJA, Lakebed LJA etc.)
-Clips: OoB and squeezing in between tight spaces (gate clip in Ordon, vine clip in Lakebed, fence clip in Gerudo Desert, early Spinner, early CitS etc.)
-Skips: cutscene triggers, text boxes

I had ideas of utilising LJAs that save a small amount of time but doesn't break the game like jumps in CitS and mailman skips. During my run I had a few TP runners in the chat and I asked them what they considered to be a glitch, skip, trick and what not. Runners that came to my stream: Zaf1re, Mlgsince1972, Chaoslinkx33, Quantumz1/Jaffar1234


Now this ultimate question goes to everyone in the TP community; what is a glitch, skip, trick and what should be allowed in a glitchless run?

[Mofat]

-Completed ToT w/o the gate skip (Clawshot target) and pot skip (where you stand on the switch and roll as the gate closes), however I did do the 'cutscene climb'  where I rolled onto the platform to skip  bringing another small statue. This should definitely be allowed, These are not glitches but oversights. Also I think the back hop method is fine too, it works exactly as the physics in the game intend it to.

-Cits cutscene skip is iffy, if it were just the jump it would be fine but it does skip the cutscene, or another way to put it is skipping a trigger which I consider to border line on a glitch, but nothing extra special is required for this one such as an LJA, hell with the other method you don't even need to use the peahat. I believe the flame skip should be in there, as you are just manipulating his AI to your advantage and not oh say..LJA'ing onto his back.

-Completed Hyrule Castle w/o any barrier skips - I think these should be allowed, unless someone can come up with a compelling argument.


I'll probably do a run of this sooner rather than later.

[Skyreon]

Really glad to see you of all replied as I know you were originally going to do a run of this.


This whole discussion is edgy and needs influence by many runners, this isn't something I can simply decide just because I have the "world record". Honestly I hope someone provides evidence of a better time since my run was so bad.

The CitS cutscene skip isn't a complicated skip and it doesn't require much effort, the only problem I see is the fact that it's not just a cutscene but an event since the bridge would usually get destroyed.

-Completed Hyrule Castle w/o any barrier skips - I think these should be allowed, unless someone can come up with a compelling argument.
Absolutely; the idea of barrier skips is to just move away quick enough, it could actually happen in a casual run (especially the one as a wolf). What puts this on the edge for me is the one you do inside HC where you're barely getting away. You use a certain setup that you wouldn't stumble upon casually

[ahou]

What puts this on the edge for me is the one you do inside HC where you're barely getting away. You use a certain setup that you wouldn't stumble upon casually

Why would that matter...?

[Chaoslink]

To be honest I can't really define what is/isn't a glitch, mostly because a lot of them are really strange (At least in this game)

Most of Temple of Time can probably be done with the short cuts (Besides the LJA of course) and even the back hop trick with the scales, I think should be allowed.

I believe that we could still steal bombs from Iza cause TECHNICALLY that isn't a glitch, it's more of an exploit, and you really don't abuse anything from the game, you just use oocoo which I think isn't really a glitch since you're using something that the game already gives you. Sure you're not supposed to be able to do that, but again you're not going against any game physics really.

Not really sure why you obtained the eldin bridge piece, unless I'm just not familiar with the route, I'm pretty sure you don't need it, though I could be wrong.

Flame skip and cutscene skip in City is definetely an iffy one, I think it would highly depend on how you do cutscene skip, but honestly I think it should be allowed, same with Flame Skip since neither of those are really glitch worthy imo.

That's really all I can comment on for now, maybe I'll try this out for myself to see where we could use more time savers.

[mzxrules]

I believe that we could still steal bombs from Iza cause TECHNICALLY that isn't a glitch, it's more of an exploit, and you really don't abuse anything from the game, you just use oocoo which I think isn't really a glitch since you're using something that the game already gives you. Sure you're not supposed to be able to do that, but again you're not going against any game physics really.

Even if it is allowed, you wouldn't be able to get an Ooccoo to Iza's without getting Barnes' Bag first since they disappear after each dungeon. Snowpeak can't be reached without Map Glitch, Lakebed requires Bombs or an oobs clip, and the other two dungeons aren't viable since skipping Barnes' Bag means clearing Laranyu Twilight early which means you need a gate clip and EMS, which in turn requires a super wolf jump.

Not really sure why you obtained the eldin bridge piece, unless I'm just not familiar with the route, I'm pretty sure you don't need it, though I could be wrong.

It isn't needed yes, but the Eldin Bridge Warp point is fairly close to the Hidden Village, which is where you get stuff that I've long forgotten ever since that trade sequence was skipped. The nearest warp I can think of other than that would be the one next to Iza's. Eldin Bridge warp is probably slower though since that one requires 3 warps vs 1 warp to Iza's

[Skyreon]

The reason I got the Eldin bridge piece is because it gets me fairly close to Hidden Village but also essentially right next to the statue where you collect a Sky Book Page. I made up on the spot that it would save more time to warp the piece although I have not timed it by any means. The route is rushed and not optimized.

Why would that matter...?

Some people define glitchless as a run where you play the game intentionally and casually very fast. I asked Venick last night and his rough description of glitchless was to beat the game as fast as possible without utilizing anything you wouldn't stumble upon casually. The barrier skip inside HC requires a certain way to skip it. The one outside is easy to avoid as you can dash away from it fairly easily.

Personally I think barrier skips should be allowed since it's a part of skipping a cutscene quick enough and walking away.

[Mofat]

We have been talking about this a lot on my stream... And I have kind of come to the conclusion that the definition of a glitch (At least for glitchless runs) is anything that requires a special set up, AKA, the second barrier skip in HC, or EMS or S&S.  And the WHOLE reason I came to this conclusions is because technically...EMS nor S&S are glitches, they are just tricks taking advantage of whats already in the game, and whats more neither is an LJA, Map glitch on the other hand is very clearly a glitch that isn't supposed to happen.

Anyone care to weigh in on this?

[Skyreon]

I agree with the setup argument since you don't casually randomly find barrier skip inside HC, EMS and S&S skip.
What I think needs discussion is LJAs with the Boomerang. Especially a line between what saves a small amount of time to what skips sections of the game.

The LJAs used to enter Sacred Grove to get to Temple of Time: yes or no? You do use a setup, you do intentionally skip the chicken and you do intentionally skip a cutscene and text boxes. If it wasn't for the cutscene and text skips this would be in the grey zone for me.

Now dungeon LJAs definitely needs a clear yes or no. CitS: the room right before you quickspin two Lizalfos and clawshot up to some vines/ivy. These LJAs are merely timesavers and you go the same path apart from the very last bit where you LJA to the door. I would say the LJAs in this room are allowed but would love to hear anybody's point of view on this.

The LJAs you use in the big plant room and the one right after would be a no for me though. It certainly requires a setup and skip Clawshotting onto Peahats and to lower yourself while hanging from them (which Nintendo would love us for doing!)

[UchihaSasuke]

i think LJAs should count as glitches because in a casual style run, you wouldn't have any idea about how they work to save time. you already need some special knowledge to take advantage of them and to get them to work since several LJAs don't work in any place. similarly, the Wolf Super Jump, while it is just game physics, a casual player wouldn't have any idea of how to take advantage of it. to a casual player, it would be just an abnormal longer jump once in a while.

this reminds me of a glitch in Mario Kart DS where a perfect rocket start gives you the ability to drive over any off-road section at maximum speed as long as you never lose max speed (PRB, which means Prolonged Rocket Boost for those interested in the name). it is something that could be done on accident if you were very good at the game but in casual play, you would go to the regular road shortly after the start since there's nothing telling you that the rocket start allows you to go off-road anywhere without speed loss. you'd only know that effect by knowing the glitch.

[Venick409]

If you have LJA I don't even see a point in doing this. We already have all dungeons and this category would just be all dungeons no tricks we don't want to do because they're to hard.

[Pheenoh]

I doubt I'll ever run this, but here's my thoughts

Glitches:
LJA (enemy or boomerang) - This is hands down a glitch. It will only work under specific circumstances. Saying "it's only following the game's mechanics, it's not a glitch" means there is no glitch in any video game ever. Every glitch is just following the games mechanics, they're called glitches because they're obvious unintended loopholes in said mechanics.

Wolf Superjump - See above

Out of Bounds / Unloaded Areas - Obvious

Map Glitch - It's in the title of the trick...

Sword and Shield Skip - Uses LJA

EMS - Uses Wolf Superjump and goes out of bounds. Nothing more needed.

Gate Clips - Ordon Gate Clip gives you a weird, glitchy camera. I dunno how you could not call this a glitch. Lanayru Gate Clip is useless without EMS, but being pushed through a wall (gate, in this case) looks like a glitch.

Wolf Clipping - This could be debatable. In situations like AG boss key early, it's kinda hard to say it is not a glitch.

AG Boss Key Early / Spinner Early - If you could figure out a way to do this without clipping between the wall and the pillar, I would say this could be allowed.

Barrier Skips - You're clipped half way into a barrier for one, but the other one you can skip but running around it before it forms. I'm not sure on this one.

Not Glitches:
Wolf Jumping on Sand - This is like power crouch stab in Ocarina of Time. It's extremely easy to figure out and do in casual play, so it's hard to say if it was overlooked or intended.

General Shortcuts - Gate Skip in ToT, Grabbing Statue through the ceiling, Backhop in ToT, Jumpslash Switch in Goron Mines, Cutscene Skip in City in the Sky, etc. These all use intended gameplay mechanics (most of them being a simple jumpslash). Glitch ≠ Sequence Break

[Kaztalek]

"These are not glitches but oversights. Also I think the back hop method is fine too, it works exactly as the physics in the game intend it to."

you do not know how games work; anything you call a glitch works because the physics of the game intend for it to happen
elsewise, youre arguing what the -developers- were intending when they wrote it, in which case, any "oversight" would obviously not be intended by them

any attempt to define "glitchless" would just be a laundry list of things to avoid and would be beyond arbitrary

[ahou]

LJA (enemy or boomerang) - This is hands down a glitch. It will only work under specific circumstances. Saying "it's only following the game's mechanics, it's not a glitch" means there is no glitch in any video game ever. Every glitch is just following the games mechanics, they're called glitches because they're obvious unintended loopholes in said mechanics.

It wasn't unintended though. This mechanic was deliberately put in place to allow jump attacks to reach targets they wouldn't otherwise be able to. It doesn't only work in specific circumstances either. It happens every single time you jump attack while targeting. Watch your speed while jump attacking at a target; it will always depend on where the target is in relation to link.

Wolf Clipping - This could be debatable.

Would anyone really argue that clipping through walls isn't a glitch?

This is like power crouch stab in Ocarina of Time. It's extremely easy to figure out and do in casual play, so it's hard to say if it was overlooked or intended.

I don't see how it's anything like pcs. Pcs works because a variable was never set when crouch stabbing.

you do not know how games work; anything you call a glitch works because the physics of the game intend for it to happen
elsewise, youre arguing what the -developers- were intending when they wrote it, in which case, any "oversight" would obviously not be intended by them

any attempt to define "glitchless" would just be a laundry list of things to avoid and would be beyond arbitrary

That is indeed what we are arguing. In many cases, it's pretty obvious what the developers intended, or did not intend. Of course "glitchless" runs are never even defined that way. They pick and choose glitches they want to use, and ban things that aren't glitches because they don't like it. So it's still incredibly arbitrary.

We have been talking about this a lot on my stream... And I have kind of come to the conclusion that the definition of a glitch (At least for glitchless runs) is anything that requires a special set up, AKA, the second barrier skip in HC, or EMS or S&S.  And the WHOLE reason I came to this conclusions is because technically...EMS nor S&S are glitches, they are just tricks taking advantage of whats already in the game, and whats more neither is an LJA, Map glitch on the other hand is very clearly a glitch that isn't supposed to happen.

Anyone care to weigh in on this?

That's probably about the best way to go, but you may as well call the category casual% at that point.

[cafde]

Any% no fun