Bombs Early Route

[Matti]

Now that people seem to be a bit happier about superswimming directly to Greatfish I took a look at early bombs again and came up with the following route for the early game:

Getting pearls:

- Beat DRC as normal.
- Superswim to Northern Triangle Isle and place pearl.
- Superswim to Greatfish and cancel camera lock.
- Superswim to Windfall and get bombs.
- Superswim to Bird's Peak Rock and get chart.
- Superswim to Forest Haven, beat FH with bombs (this saves ~2:20)
- Superswim west with storage, aimming for Southen Fairy Island but be careful with your speed. I found just above half air meter left works pretty well for avoiding the Ice Ring sea unload but to easily reach SFI.
- Get pearl, then superswim to Southen Triangle Isle and plant the pearl
- Superswim to East Triangle Isle and plant the final pearl.

This route should look something like this:


Extra time superswimming in the early game is hard to be exact on but between 20-40 seconds.

Collecting and deciphering charts with day/night 1 cycle earlier:

- After beating Wind Temple, warp to Outset.
- Change wind to South and sail to Outset to beat Savage.
- After beating Savage, superswim to Diamond Stepp.
   - The goal here is to get inside the island before it's collision loads and then let the island load and have Link pop up onto the island.
   - To do this you have to superswim through the top of the square to the left of Outset so that the game starts loading that island and Diamond Stepp takes longer to load.
   - Once you are inside the island, pause then buffer L and Up on the control stick (this will immediately reduce Link's speed to zero).
- Get the Ghost Ship chart, savewarp, change wind to NE and sail into the Ghost Ship.
- Once done farming the Ghost Ship, sail north to Needle Rock and get the chart there.
- BoG warp to DRI, superswim to chart.
- BoG warp to SFI, sail NE to Cabana and get chart.
- Superswim to Stonewatcher and get chart.
- Superswim into Islet. Get chart.
- BoG warp to Tingle and dechipher.

This works out being ~30 seconds faster than the current chart collection.

All in all your average time saving over the current route should be   2:00+

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I also tried the possiblity of getting bombs as soon as you get the Wind Waker. This allows you to skip all the cutscenes on the DRC entry saving ~2:30 on Jap, but you'd have to buy a pear (~35), superswim from Windfall to DRI (~40), get a bottle from the sub and then sail to Bomb Island(~1:20), and then after all that get to Medli later in the game (only way I can think to do it is to superswim to Crescent Moon Island, get chest storage while in camera lock there, superswim back and then walk up DRI to her which would take like 1:30 in itself). So yeah, fuck that.

[nathanisbored]

Wait, what exactly triggers Medli to appear later on in the game?

EDIT: Never mind, I misunderstood what you were saying.

EDIT 2: If you can climb up to Medli with chest storage, then why don't people do that currently to get up to Medli faster using the 200 rupee chest on DRI? Or is the climb slow?

[wooferzfg1]

While bombs early might sound enticing, the boomerang is useful enough throughout the game (especially in Savage Labyrinth) that this route would save a lot less time than you would think. Also, since the day/night cycle gets screwed up with this route, it means that we would need a slower route to make this work, making bombs early too slow in general.

[nathanisbored]

While bombs early might sound enticing, the boomerang is useful enough throughout the game (especially in Savage Labyrinth) that this route would save a lot less time than you would think. Also, since the day/night cycle gets screwed up with this route, it means that we would need a slower route to make this work, making bombs early too slow in general.

You still get the boomerang with this route. I don't even think it's possible to skip the boomerang.

By the way, how many places does having bombs save time in Forbidden Woods anyway? I guess with the new bomb tech for storage you can get chest storage in the room next to the boss door instead of the room with the Morths. Also you can obviously use them to blow up plant covered doors.

EDIT: Heh, I suppose with the new bomb tech, you could even get storage off the boomerang chest to skip the chest opening animation for the boomerang  

EDIT 2: If the day/night cycle is still a problem in this route, you could probably take the extra time to get Song of Passing right after Ballad of Gales and still save some time overall.

[Matti]

Ok, came up with a route for the end game that lets you maintain the time saved.

As you activate endless night early, the day/night cycle is one day earlier for the rest of the game. This means that for the two nights you get inbetween returning from hyrule 2 and deciphering the charts, the ghost ship is at Diamond Stepp and Bomb island repsctively. Farming at Diamond Steppe is faster than Bomb Island.

At Diamond Stepp, each reload is 4 seconds slower than Spectacle, so 28 seconds more for 7 reloads.
Sailing from Outset to Diamond Steppe takes 1:20, 30 seconds more than sailing from Needle rock in current route.
Getting into the ghost ship for the first time from Windfall takes 30 seconds to warp, and 50 seconds to superswim in. It takes 15 seconds to sail into the Ghost Ship after getting the chart.

28 + 30 - 30 - 50 + 15 = 7 seconds faster.

It's a bit more complicated, however, as getting to Outset for Savage currently uses a superswim which is 15 seconds faster than warping there, so it's more like 8 seconds slower to use this route. Putting this all together, the average saving with early bombs should still be ~1:30, so it's worth it.

Some fights are going to be a bit slower without the boomerang but arrows/hookshot are generally a decent alternative.

End Game:

- Warp to Outset after beating the Wind Temple.
- Beat Savage Labrinth.
- Sail North-West to Diamond Stepp, be careful to avoid the Giant Octo.
- Get the Ghost Ship Chart and then farm the Ghost Ship.
- Warp to DRI and then collect the remainder of the charts as normal up until Needle Rock.
- Warp to Tingle Island and dechipher charts.

[Razor7581]

I don't even think it's possible to skip the boomerang.

http://www.zeldaspeedruns.com/tww/item-skip/boomerang

[Demon9]

This is an interesting route idea, I will take a look at it. I was also thinking about superswim to Diamond Steppe to the ghost ship but I forgot about that you need the ghost ship chart first lol. Also the route after Diamond Steppe should not be the same, getting the chart at Needle rock should probably be alot better for example.

[nathanisbored]

http://www.zeldaspeedruns.com/tww/item-skip/boomerang

Welp, that's what I get for thinking I know shit about this game.

[wooferzfg1]

Very cool that we're actually looking into this route. Everyone who I've talked to before has said that the bombs early route is slower, but it seems ridiculous to say that when skipping the boomerang cuts out 2.5 min of gameplay. I'm guessing that to make this as efficient as possible we have to restructure a lot of the route after WT so that the day/night cycle is as fast as possible. Overall I would think that bombs early could be a minute faster.

[Crazyyinsane]

This is the list why I think this is a end of discussion route!

1: To many far superswims that take alot of Charging, the current route has fewer superswims that are faster! Alot of islands that will unload your water is way to slow to recharge your superswim once again. We got the superswim from Windfall to Bird's Peak Rock you were talking about (that has the possibility to unload the water of Fire Mountain, we will need to get double storage of beedle at Forest Haven with beedle ship with only 3 textboxes from KoRL (with a bumpy beedle boat no Thanks)

2: Day and Night cycle route will be stupid and to slow (getting the Song of Passing is bullshit)

3: Yes there is a new way to get easier to dry storage with bombs, but that wont help because we still need the Boomerang for Savage Labyrinth (its alot of time save because of that part)

4: Killing Kalle Demos with Bombs is a slower than actually doing it with Boomerang and 4 quickspin!

5: End of discussion please!

[nathanisbored]

End of discussion please!

Hey now, let's be willing to try radical ideas rather than just dismissing them. Frankly I'd be really excited if any% could incorporate some low% strats just to show off how broken the game really is in terms of skipping items and activating major plot events out of sequence. That's the one thing any% is missing, and why the TAS route is so cool. Also, many of the points you made have already been addressed. Unless it costs more than 1.5 minutes overall to skip boomerang strats and do rupee farming in a different spot, any time saved is time saved.

And yeah, Song of Passing would probably take roughly 1.5 minutes to get and play twice, so it's likely not worth it.

You might be right though, maybe I'm just being too hopeful... 

[wooferzfg1]

End of discussion please!

I think it's too early to dismiss a route until we know for sure that it's slower. First of all, using the boomerang in Savage saves time, but not a significant amount of time since the boomerang is only used on a few floors. Second of all, I'm sure that there's a way to adjust this route so that it works with the day night cycle, especially since we now have storage with bombs that lets us superswim almost anywhere. Until we time a full bombs early route, there's no reason not to take some time to investigate this.

[Abahbob]

My concern is day/night. The way time passes inside buildings/dungeons is wonky. Only passes between certain times, then pauses. Iirc, from 06:00-12:00 and 18:00-00:00 (or something like that. basically from early morn/night to late morn/night). If it lines up wrong, it wouldn't work.

Concerning rang, Kalle Demos with bombs is slower by a little bit, and tougher. When timing Forbidden Woods, don't use Mugg's TAS as that's not realistic. Rang does save a decent amount of time, but so does skipping it.

All I can say is do a run (maybe mildly segmented) to get a good understanding of day/night with that route.

Oh, and I wouldn't count on doing delivery bag skip.

[Matti]

I got round to playing through the route to test timing of the Day/Night cycle and everything works fine. You have enough night left after getting the Ghost Ship chart to do ~12 Ghost Ship runs. I've finalised the route below (the one I used and tested) and have made some changes which save more time.

Sailing to Needle rock from Diamond step saves 25 seconds (00:42 vs 1:07). Unfortunatly, the wind has to be set to NE at Diamond Stepp which means sailing to Cabana from SFI, 15 seconds slower (1:09 vs 00:54). The new superswim onto Diamond Stepp puts the travel time on par with sailing from Needle Rock in the current route.

All of this means that if you're able to do all this without any major fuck ups, the end game route with early bombs will save ~30 more seconds.

Now before anyone starts freaking out again about not having the boomerang or other things, I'll address some of you concerns:

1. The boomerang is really not that useful in Savage. Peahats can be taken down as quick if not quicker with arrows, Boko Babas take 2 pokes with the Hookshot, Keese are easily dispatched with an overhead slash and killing Moblins without stunning them is one of the easiest things in all the great sea. At most you might loss 5-10 seconds on average from a lack of boomerang.
2. I factored killing Kalle Demos with bombs into my orignal timing of FW (which I did myself rather than using a TAS route). Killing Kalle takes 15 seconds longer than a perfect 2 throw Boomerang fight and I didn't find killing Kalle with just 4 bombs too difficult (3rd try when timing).
3. From testing the early game route, the superswim from Windfall to Bird's Peak never gets a Fire Mountain unload (you're just not in the square long enough). Avoiding the unload from Ice Ring is trickier but I was able to get a pretty consistent slower superswim to SFI.


Actual End Game:
- After beating Wind Temple, warp to Outset.
- Change wind to South and sail to Outset to beat Savage.
- After beating Savage, superswim to Diamond Stepp.
   - The goal here is to get inside the island before it's collision loads and then let the island load and have Link pop up onto the island.
   - To do this you have to superswim through the top of the square to the left of Outset so that the game starts loading that island and Diamond Stepp takes longer to load.
   - Once you are inside the island, pause then buffer L and Up on the control stick (this will immediately reduce Link's speed to zero).
- Get the Ghost Ship chart, savewarp, change wind to NE and sail into the Ghost Ship.
- Once done farming the Ghost Ship, sail north to Needle Rock and get the chart there.
- BoG warp to DRI, superswim to chart.
- BoG warp to SFI, sail NE to Cabana and get chart.
- Superswim to Stonewatcher and get chart.
- Superswim into Islet. Get chart.
- BoG warp to Tingle and dechipher.

[Moon]

I am sure that skipping the boomerang will save some time, but i don't agree whit the times you provided.

 I'am almost 100% sure you will lose more than 10 sec in the savage without boomerang, besides that if you are lucky at Kalle Demos with a 1 throw boomerang, how much faster will it be than the bombs?

Also if you are "unlucky" (fucked up)  the mini boss in the WindTemple, the boomerang will make it easier to kill the mobs.
Furthermore i think the boomerang will perhaps save a sec for other fights that are getting messed up.

All with all i think that skipping the boomerang is indeed faster, but i got my doubts about how much.