RTS Any% possible routes

[SpiderWaffle]

I'm guessing this will be met with some violent opposition as was the case when I suggested: try harder for DoT skip, hover into spirit temple and skip bean, try harder for tektite, and skip sword in child section; I'm not sure why so many members of this community are violently against intelligently timing and testing plausible routes, and insist intuition alone is all that is necessary even though they're wrong many times.  I think qwerty or some other mod banned me from ZFG twitch channel last for talking along these lines I post below, which further reinforces my assessment above.

The Current Route uses Lon Lon and gets bomb bag in DC, tries 2-3 trees for nuts.  It can't only be improved by missing no SSs, HISS, or pressures jumps which is a feat never seen before; or doing unbuffered valley skip, which is also very hard.

There's some other possible routes such as RBA bomb bag with Cojiro and Lastly Tektite which likely have higher probability of being to save time:

-Saves the 3:07 it takes from start DC to light eyes with getting bomb bag and one death (which I think is needed for some BA stuff) is the main benefit, but there's some others as well...
-Having bombs before DC allows you to do DC w/e, it could be right after odd mushroom which is only 1-2s off route.  Normally you'd be doing to DC after getting Cojiro and going to Lost Woods to trade for Odd Mushroom afterwards which forces you to watch both the Death Mountain Trail (11s) and Goron City Intro (7s) cutscenes.  This way you would enter these areas from different entrances and thus allow you to skip them.  The current way, DMT, takes 89s from shop to odd M, and going through forest takes about 70s and using a 2 extra bombs, 1 for HISS and 1 for pressure jump.  This would save an additional 19s.  I checked the Odd M timer:

There is 1:43 extra time left on timer to use.  It takes a RTS takes 46s of timer countdown from lighting eyes to exit of DC, so 1:43-(46+1)=56s that you'd have of odd mushroom timer from start of DC to opening eyes. For the hovering, it's 5s first 3 hovers, 4s each after that, so 17-29s depending on number of hovers (which really needs more testing) You might be able to glitch through the jaw line like DoT skip without lighting eyes. Then 4s to light eyes in which timer counts. So a maximum of 33s. 56-33=23s of timer from start of DC to starting hovers, worst case, 9 hovers, or 35s best case, 6 hovers. It takes about 12s of timer from start DC to middle beamos, so that seems like you'd have around 11s for 9 hovers, or 23s for 6 hovers of time to spare.  So you'd have to be able to get with 11 hovers maximum if doing while going against Odd M timer to save those extra 19s,  This would only allow for 1 beamos drop unless you can do it in 6-8 hovers since it takes about 15s to get an 2nd drop from a 2nd beamos.

-Doing DC right before magic I don't think would save any time because I believe it's about 19s off route, so you'd waste the 19s you save by going through forest afters shop.
-You can buy bombs from the shop for 35r which means 27r extra I believe, you can get 5 from jumping platforms after KF shop and 1-2 in bush after that, then get the 20r in the river and maybe 1-2r extra (not sure) which should let you get 27r extra at about 8s extra, which is faster and more consistent than RBAing gaunlets to try for bush drop.
-After buying bombs, you can try 1 bomb on the 5 bushes in KV, and 1 bomb on the bushes in LW (2 more optional bushes to check), if you get 1 drop from these, you'd have 5+5-4(KV bushes, HISS, pressure jump, LW bushes)= 6 bombs, use one on middle beamos and you'd have 10, 8 to hover and 2 for eyes.  Or, check no bushes, get to DC with 3 bombs, and double beamos for 12 bombs (use bomb flower on one), I'm not sure, do you need one for GV blockade?  There's other options of course by these seem most likely and the best chances for luck, again we really need to test how many hovers it tends to take and if you can skip lighting eyes.

So in summary, this route should save 19s from alternate KV shop to DC route, and start DC to light eyes would take about 12s to middle beamos, about 24s for hovering (8 hovers), 17s to light eyes; so 12+24+17= 53s, compared to 3:07 the current route so another 2:14, so 2:33 of raw savings

Granted you'll only have 2-5 bombs after DC instead 17; however, only 5 are needed, the rest are are for SSs and pressure jump, and there's more places to try for bombs drops as well.  Even if you have to get an extra drop and/or and skip the extra SSs they save less than 1:00 altogether.  I'm not sure if you could sell bugs twice and buy 2 sets of bombs either...



And Lastly to tektite:  I'm not sure the exact completion rate Pokey gets it but I've heard around 10%, which is certainly much much higher than missing no SSs, HISS, or pressure jumps.  The time this would save needs to be calculated and tested, but pretty soon one of these routes will be necessary to save time over the current one.

[Maxx]

Hey Spider-Waffle. Glad you brought the RTA discussion here (it was getting a bit weary on TASVideos). While there is some good stuff here, there are a few things that need to be clarified and added into the calculations

-Having bombs before DC allows you to do DC w/e, it could be right after odd mushroom which is only 1-2s off route.  Normally you'd be doing to DC after getting Cojiro and going to Lost Woods to trade for Odd Mushroom afterwards which forces you to watch both the Death Mountain Trail (11s) and Goron City Intro (7s) cutscenes.  This way you would enter these areas from different entrances and thus allow you to skip them.  The current way, DMT, takes 89s from shop to odd M, and going through forest takes about 70s and using a 2 extra bombs, 1 for HISS and 1 for pressure jump.  This would save an additional 19s.  I checked the Odd M timer:

There is 1:43 extra time left on timer to use.  It takes a RTS takes 46s of timer countdown from lighting eyes to exit of DC, so 1:43-(46+1)=56s that you'd have of odd mushroom timer from start of DC to opening eyes. For the hovering, it's 5s first 3 hovers, 4s each after that, so 17-29s depending on number of hovers (which really needs more testing) You might be able to glitch through the jaw line like DoT skip without lighting eyes. Then 4s to light eyes in which timer counts. So a maximum of 33s. 56-33=23s of timer from start of DC to starting hovers, worst case, 9 hovers, or 35s best case, 6 hovers. It takes about 12s of timer from start DC to middle beamos, so that seems like you'd have around 11s for 9 hovers, or 23s for 6 hovers of time to spare.  So you'd have to be able to get with 11 hovers maximum if doing while going against Odd M timer to save those extra 19s,  This would only allow for 1 beamos drop unless you can do it in 6-8 hovers since it takes about 15s to get an 2nd drop from a 2nd beamos.

The biggest problem with doing DC on the mush timer is that you need stick on B to beat DC, but you need bottle on B beforehand (to RBA cojiro+bombs or gaunts). The current route that does DC right after getting cojiro does a deathwarp in the first room of DC. This gives you stick on B for the KD fight. However, dying with the mush in your inventory will revert it to cojiro and remove the timer. You have to trade for it again. You could get around this by getting a stick on B earlier than DC (for instance, you could fall in the well to die to deathwarp in Kakariko), but once you get a stick on B, you'll need to actually have a stick in your inventory to use it (and you can't have one before you start RBAing or you won't be able to bottle B). The bazaar is along the way if you're going up DMT, but if you deathwarp in Kak you'll spawn at the entrance. The bazaar is also where we get our shield (needed for sliding and ISG for KD) and deku nuts. Deku nuts could be gotten elsewhere (maybe bomb the huge Deku Baba in Kokiri instead of pressure jumping off the bridge), but the stick and shield are a little more problematic. I would think the bazaar is still the way to go for all 3 items, but you would need to get bottle B first (probably RBA cucco), then get cojiro and go to the bazaar (in whichever order is faster), then kill yourself. Not saying it'd be slower necessarily, but the time should be accounted for.

You can glitch into the Dodongo's jawline, but there is solid floor at the door level. You can hover to the boss loading zone from there, but that takes quite a lot of bombs (and is also very difficult non-TAS). Swordless's recent TAS does this if you want to see what I'm talking about.

-You can buy bombs from the shop for 35r which means 27r extra I believe, you can get 5 from jumping platforms after KF shop and 1-2 in bush after that, then get the 20r in the river and maybe 1-2r extra (not sure) which should let you get 27r extra at about 8s extra, which is faster and more consistent than RBAing gaunlets to try for bush drop.

You can't buy bombs from the bazaar until you've beaten DC (and stepped into the blue warp). RBAing the Goron Ruby does not change this. He just won't sell them to you for some reason. Gotta do DC blue warp, which we have to save until the end for wrong warping. Buying bombs isn't really an option.

I'm not sure, do you need one for GV blockade?  There's other options of course by these seem most likely and the best chances for luck, again we really need to test how many hovers it tends to take and if you can skip lighting eyes.

Not sure what blockade you're referring to. Skipping the eyes isn't really feasible on console since even if you manage to pull off such a hard trick, it costs way more bombs for the OoB hover than it saves on the eyes. There is another crazy trick that lets you open the door here, but that seems completely insane to do without a lot of pause buffering, and I don't even know if adult Link can do it. In fact, I don't think adult Link can clip into the head at all.

As for the hover, I did try testing it a bit but I honestly just couldn't do it. Without hover boots, bomb hovering (and gaining any height at all) is just so hard if you don't have a wall to your back. The height gain is pathetic.

Granted you'll only have 2-5 bombs after DC instead 17; however, only 5 are needed, the rest are are for SSs and pressure jump, and there's more places to try for bombs drops as well.  Even if you have to get an extra drop and/or and skip the extra SSs they save less than 1:00 altogether.  I'm not sure if you could sell bugs twice and buy 2 sets of bombs either...

I guess you only need 5 bombs after DC if you skip all the slides and pressure jumps (assuming you already blew up the GC boulders), but the trip to Gerudo Valley is LONG. I haven't timed it, but it should save a pretty substancial amount of time.

And Lastly to tektite:  I'm not sure the exact completion rate Pokey gets it but I've heard around 10%, which is certainly much much higher than missing no SSs, HISS, or pressure jumps.  The time this would save needs to be calculated and tested, but pretty soon one of these routes will be necessary to save time over the current one.

Tektite hover probably does save time. It would be pretty interesting to see a runner pull it off in a good run (without messing up too many other things).

Overall, skipping bomb bag (20) really relies on the hover to the dodongo head. If anyone wants to take a stab at that, feel free. Even if it's reliable and faster, I don't see a way around depending on a luck drop shortly after cojiro, and even if you get one you're completely squeezed for bombs for the rest of the run.

[TimpZ]

If I understand the WW correctly you can enter the blue warp, interrupt the cutscene by dying or something and then get back later and do WW only it's a frame perfect trick.

Now, I'm not saying this is the best route and definitely not the easiest but how about:

-normal any% up until cojiro and RBA bombs except you get the well bombchus
-light eyes with chus and kill KD
-suicide or deathwarp in the blue warp if it helps (dunno where you'll go)
-get hover boots and magic (and possibly hookshot?)
-kill phantom and do the cs-skip
-adult dot skip
-BA FW
-???
-Profit

But yea it's just an alternative route I'm pretty shure it'll be slower and harder but it might be improvable. Maybe by getting chus and the mushroom as a child it might be faster to use chus in dodongo? I'm just thinking there might be a way of skipping the annoying LACS that takes forever and together with not getting the bomb bag and skipping some of the trade quest it might be possible to save some frames :p


EDIT: I just realised that we'd have to do a reverse DOT-skip without a sword for this to work... Meh.

[Runnerguy2489]

I'm not sure why so many members of this community are violently against intelligently timing and testing plausible routes, and insist intuition alone is all that is necessary even though they're wrong many times.

-You can buy bombs from the shop for 35r which means 27r extra I believe

If you are going to call out this community for not testing routes, you should probably test your own, don't you think? From what I've seen you never actually test anything yourself, you always want someone else to do the hard work and do it for you (Hey guys, how about that tektite hover? I know it's possible but I'm too lazy to try it myself, maybe one of you could lure two guays over and try it?).

How about you make a mock test run on a console, or even in an emulator of what you feel a console player could pull off, and upload it for us to see? That way, you'd actually be testing your own route and would have a solid time estimate instead of just throwing numbers of seconds around all over the place. Then when you try and buy bombs, you'll realize something we've realized since 2008 when DoT Skip was found: You can't do that unless you step in the blue warp of DC.

[qwerty1605]

Tektite hover would probably be a lot faster if you got a perfect poe hess, but without it I don't think it would be fast enough to save huge amounts of time (I haven't seriously timed this, but I may be wrong). I also do believe if someone was crazy enough, an easier version of the route gunz made would be faster. (again I haven't tested yet, don't quote me on this) The skill needed to pull that off would be insane though.
Something like this might be faster though (I'll test soon)

- Sword, 40 Rupees, Shield
- Escape, Ocarina
- Water Slide to Kakariko
- Cucco Collection, enter Well
- Get Bombchus, 100R Chest
- Get Bugs (10C)
- Owl Skip
- Market
- Boost to Ledge to skip Egg (9C)
- Lullaby with Death CS Skip (8C)
- Buy Hylian Shield, DoT Skip
- To Graveyard
- Hookshot, Dupe over Bomb Slot(?) and put Bugs into them
- Get Poe, Shadow Early (7C)
- Hover Boots, Death/save Warp (xC)
- Hyrule Field
- Chu hess, Tektike Hover, Steal Rod (x-1C)
- Hoverslide to Zora's Domain Warp (use stick for JS)
- Get your way out of ZD, OoB to Lost Woods(idk how to do this trick)
- To SFM,Get fairy in duped bottle (make sure it doesn't revive you), RBA sticks, Minuet CS Skip with Death
- To Goron City, Leave to Death Mountain Trail
- Enter Dodongo's Cavern, Blow up Wall
- Light Eyes, Bottle Switch Trick, Beat King Dodongo with ISG Stick B, Death Warp out
- Get Magic, Warp to Forest Temple
- Cutscene Bottle Trick, BK Skip
- Own Phantom Ganon with Stick B ISG, Death CS Skip
- Death Warp to ToT using Ocarina Damage Duplication
- Prelude CS Skip, BA FW on B using Fairy + Sticks
- Dodongo's Cavern, Victory

That route might be faster (I think more on english because of 6 minute lacs), but it still has some crazy shit. For tektite hover you can do a 1 chu method that I haven't tried but it looks easier www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9DCsM-zDj4


*Disclaimer- These are all assumption and they shouldn't be used against me in any way, shape, or form. ALSO they are not tested YET I will test this shortly and we will know more then

[Maxx]

Tektite hover would probably be a lot faster if you got a perfect poe hess, but without it I don't think it would be fast enough to save huge amounts of time (I haven't seriously timed this, but I may be wrong). I also do believe if someone was crazy enough, an easier version of the route gunz made would be faster. (again I haven't tested yet, don't quote me on this) The skill needed to pull that off would be insane though.
Something like this might be faster though (I'll test soon)

- Sword, 40 Rupees, Shield
- Escape, Ocarina
- Water Slide to Kakariko
- Cucco Collection, enter Well
- Get Bombchus, 100R Chest
- Get Bugs (10C)
- Owl Skip
- Market
- Boost to Ledge to skip Egg (9C)
- Lullaby with Death CS Skip (8C)
- Buy Hylian Shield, DoT Skip
- To Graveyard
- Hookshot, Dupe over Bomb Slot(?) and put Bugs into them
- Get Poe, Shadow Early (7C)
- Hover Boots, Death/save Warp (xC)
- Hyrule Field
- Chu hess, Tektike Hover, Steal Rod (x-1C)
- Hoverslide to Zora's Domain Warp (use stick for JS)
- Get your way out of ZD, OoB to Lost Woods(idk how to do this trick)
- To SFM,Get fairy in duped bottle (make sure it doesn't revive you), RBA sticks, Minuet CS Skip with Death
- To Goron City, Leave to Death Mountain Trail
- Enter Dodongo's Cavern, Blow up Wall
- Light Eyes, Bottle Switch Trick, Beat King Dodongo with ISG Stick B, Death Warp out
- Get Magic, Warp to Forest Temple
- Cutscene Bottle Trick, BK Skip
- Own Phantom Ganon with Stick B ISG, Death CS Skip
- Death Warp to ToT using Ocarina Damage Duplication
- Prelude CS Skip, BA FW on B using Fairy + Sticks
- Dodongo's Cavern, Victory

That route might be faster (I think more on english because of 6 minute lacs), but it still has some crazy shit. For tektite hover you can do a 1 chu method that I haven't tried but it looks easier www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9DCsM-zDj4


*Disclaimer- These are all assumption and they shouldn't be used against me in any way, shape, or form. ALSO they are not tested YET I will test this shortly and we will know more then

I would like to see a lightly TASd (rerecord to avoid mistakes, but don't play at a higher level than typical console play) Forest Temple route. It would be pretty cool if it was at least decently fast.

BTW you can't have 13 Deku Sticks with your route. After you RBA 20 or 29 or whatever then break one, you're down to 10: default stick capacity. You'll have to use chus or nuts or something.

[SpiderWaffle]

It seems like trying to DC on Mush timer would waste the 19s it saves and then some, though I loved to proved wrong, also the DC hovering would likely take longer and more than 8 bombs anyway.  So a RBA bomb bag route would either do DC at normal place in run, or right before getting magic.  Right before magic would allow for more bushes to be checked in lost woods and takes about the same amount of time.  I'm assuming you can't buy bombs from GC either, and does dying while going into DC blue warp ruin the warp to end credits later?  Would be great if you could do that and then buy bombs.

RBA bomb bag route would be something like this:
-RBA gauntlets
-RBA bomb bag
-check 5 bushes and 2 rocks in KV for bombs (get at least 1 drop)
-KF to LW, check bushes for bombs
-GC to KV, check 1 rock and 5 bushes for bombs
-KF to LW, check bushes bombs
-GC to DC (should have 2-3 drops by now) get 1-3 beamos drops (should have enough bombs to hover, 20-25)
-Magic, continue as normal

In all this route would spend +30s RBAing, +10-13s trying bomb drops, saves about 19s by not going to DMT to GC from KV, loses about 19s going to DC before magic.  So 30-33s lost, It would just have be able to light eyes in 2:37 after starting DC to be faster, which includes dying and getting drops from beamos.  Even if you're using 23 bombs to hover, that would only be 1:25 hovering, so you'd still be saving upwards of 1:00.

Of course this all hinges on what can be done with the hovering, I've been trying some, but nothing great.  I think using the jaw a wall once you get up to it is the way to go, I'm not sure but I think you can throw the bombs into the eyes from slightly below height you need to get onto the face.


Tektite with bombchus seems interesting, I know for a RTS bombchus is slightly slower, but a TAS might be able to do the bottom of the well so much better that's slightly faster, it depends how much tektite would save, I think bombchus cost a RTS about 25s, so tektite would need save over 25s to show some dividends.

[SpiderWaffle]

I think the hovering should be tried against the back wall, I don't know if you could start by the ladder and go over diagonally against the wall or sideways megaflip/sidehop once you're high enough, it's about the same distance over as it is up.  Even if it takes 23 bombs, it still should be quite possible to get and would save time.  Even checking the graveyard bushes which almost always drops seems doable and still saving time.  There's just so many bomb drops to check.

Also, bottom well chus with 1 chu for tektite, and other chus to light eyes might be good.

[Maxx]

I think the hovering should be tried against the back wall, I don't know if you could start by the ladder and go over diagonally against the wall or sideways megaflip/sidehop once you're high enough, it's about the same distance over as it is up.  Even if it takes 23 bombs, it still should be quite possible to get and would save time.  Even checking the graveyard bushes which almost always drops seems doable and still saving time.  There's just so many bomb drops to check.

Also, bottom well chus with 1 chu for tektite, and other chus to light eyes might be good.

I managed to hover along the back wall onto the head in 15 bombs (from the ladder on the right). I didn't do any staircase hovers, so each bomb fuse was independent. After around 5 bombs, Link is completely offscreen. I used the hookshot to center the camera, but you won't have anything that can help with that in any%. If a console runner wants to get 4+ luck bomb drops then do around 10 blind bomb hovers, be my guest. It might (MIGHT) be faster, though with the extra time you're gonna spend RBAing coji and bombs, picking up tons of bushes, and the superslides you will undoubtedly be cutting out, and over a minute of hovering, you might end up losing time. I won't be doing that route.

[Maxx]

Also DC on the mush timer is flat out impossible unless you leave DC without killing KD. Once you kill KD there are only 4 ways out of that room: savewarp, die, OI and play a warp song, enter the blue warp. Savewarping and dying will both revert mush to coji, and entering the blue warp will make a Ganonless finish impossible. You won't have any warp songs until you RBA the saw, which is 2 items after mush. It can't be done so there's no point in timing it.

[SpiderWaffle]

Wow, 15 bombs is nice, that should be faster if someone could get good at it.  If you could do the 3 bomb start, and then all the rest 4s apart after that, that'd only be 53s of hovering.  You can get 2 or 3 of the drops from beamos really often, and doing it before or after magic there'd be at least 17 possible drops to check which right along the way, if say 1s for each of these, 17s, 18s to check 2 beamos, 5s to die at start of DC, and 30s for both RBAs; 30+17+5+18+53+17=110 or 2:20 extra for 2 RBAs, 17 bush/rock picks, dying at start of DC, checking 2 beamos,  hovering, lighting eyes respectively.  Compared to the 3:07 it takes to light eyes normally.  So it would save 43s, needs to get 2 drops in 17 checks, and 2 drops from 2 beamos, someone also might be able to do it with less than 15 bombs, so you wouldn't be missing too many SSs, maybe could check some extra bushes or all 3 beamos and try and get 3 drops in 20 checks or something.  I'll time out how much the HESS and SSs save, you'll probably have to skip the smaller ones, but I think they only save about 4-5s.

EDIT* this trick: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReQK5DBhZ-o would save 8s from that estimate, and you could maybe do DC after you have warp songs and instead of death warp, just warp to ToT after beating him.

[Runnerguy2489]

That sounds great SpiderWaffle! How about you put together a test video so we can see all those numbers of seconds actually add up?

You can't break those 17 bushes/rocks and only lose 17 seconds. 32:25 of ZFG's video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5GvPPBGKFw which makes them not really "right along the way" when you are gliding past them at -18 speed. I'll leave it to you to find out how much that will cost to backwalk to them, grab them all, and backwalk out of kakariko, because I'm not going to just throw a number out there.

Your estimate has zero time spent getting to the spot to hover in DC, and also a set up (ISG + c-up alignment or whatever angle alignment you will use). Yes, console runners use set-ups to get into precise spots and alignments.

"someone also might be able to do it with less than 15 bombs". Well no one has yet. Someone might be able to do it in 5 bombs!!! Now we can route this and it's super fast too! It currently takes 15, so this route has massive bomb problems, considering 17 of 20 bombs are used just to get the mouth open.

[SpiderWaffle]

So did a bunch more timing to get this more precise.  For KV I timed 9s from bottom of ramp to exit with the SS, and I can do the back walk plus 5 bushes in 21s, so 12s extra for those 5.  When you check those 5 after the shop it takes 7s extra, you can optionally check the rock and the 5 bushes before the shop, this takes 15s extra, but if I'm not mistaken you could get bugs at this time and bottle on B instead of doing before hand, which would save the time takes to track up there and back which is about 7s.  The rock after exiting DMT would take 1s extra, and 3s for the 3 bushes in LW is pretty accurate.  From DC entrance, I can get 2 beamos bombs and setup hover in 30s.  The DMT SS saves 4.5s, and the SS to KV from castles saves 4s.

So there's: double RBA, 30s, check rock and 5 bushes, 15-7=8s, shop, check 5 bushes 7s, do HESS and pressure jump, 2 bombs, mush, 3 bushes in lost woods, 3s, save time going this way to LW, -19s, destroy GC rock wall, 1 bomb, rock before odd potion, 1s, check 5 bushes, 12s, HESS and pressure jump, 2 bombs, 3 bushes in lost woods, 3s, destroy rock in DMT and fairy wall, 2 bombs, skip DMT SS, 4.5s skip to DC, 11s and 1 bomb, dying at start of DC, 33s, 2 beamos and setup, 30s and 9 bombs, hovering, 53s and 15 bombs (as of now, could maybe be better), light eyes, 17s and 2 bombs, bomb on floor, 1 bomb, 5 bombs in chest, +5 bombs, KD, 1 bomb (could maybe use 2 bomb flowers, doesn't take much extra time, using 1 bomb flower, 2s, warp to ToT instead of death warp, 0s? and 1 bomb, SS to GV, 1 bomb, skip bridge 1 bomb, warp to ToT, 1 bomb, skip SS to KV, 4s, DC, 1 bomb.

For Bombs I count: 2+1+2+1-9+15+2+1-5+1+1+1+1+1+1=30 bombs needed from drops (6 drops, with 23 checks)

For time I count: 30+8+7+3-19+1+12+3+4.5+11+33+30+53+17+4=197.5s (3:17.5 vs 3:07 from DC normal way)  It takes 10.5s longer, I think this takes everything into account is accurate within the margin of error of RTS.  So in order to save time the hovers would have to be done with 13 bombs, this would save 8s there, plus use the bombs for 4 and 4.5s on SSs, saving 6s, then about 7-8s for each bomb after that cut.


Well chus with 1 chu from tektite and 2 for SSs to and from lake needs some more investigating.  I know for a TAS well chus take about the same amount of time as they save by lighting eyes.  For a RTS it's not as good, if you add in tektite it might more than make up that difference.

Also, I was thinking you could try 6 trees for nuts and get 2, then throw the 7 there while waiting on egg, 2.5s to equip, then take damage from tektite in DMT costing 3.5s, you'd also need to jump platforms twice and get rube is grass, 1.5s extra.  This would save 3s to get 2nd bug, 4s to sell bug, 9s to buy seeds, 3.5s to throw seeds.  Saves 3+4+9+3.5=19.5, takes 1.5+2.5+3.5=7.5 (12s saved, requires 2 nuts in 6 trees)

[Runnerguy2489]

No one is going to change their route because you threw around estimates like that. It's very hard to follow and is not proof anyway. It's a nice way to get started but you've got to follow through and see if your estimates are true. My last post only had a few examples to show you that the way you are going about thinking of this route, you are missing things. There are more things, that maybe both of us have not thought of yet, that only really come up in gameplay. In your own words, you are not intelligently timing and testing plausible routes, and you are insisting intuition alone is all that is necessary even though you're wrong many times.

Here's another example:

but if I'm not mistaken you could get bugs at this time and bottle on B instead of doing before hand, which would save the time takes to track up there and back which is about 7s.

For that rock to be a bomb drop you must have already caught a bug in your bottle B with cojiro on C right, as well as have a bottle on your bomb slot. This is something you would find out as you tested your route, but it goes unchecked here in your estimate.

Also there are now 6 drops in 23 checks instead of just 4 drops in the route, I don't know if that includes the 5 chest for KD (it's hard to follow) but that is going to be less than 1% chance of happening.

[Maxx]

Also, I was thinking you could try 6 trees for nuts and get 2, then throw the 7 there while waiting on egg, 2.5s to equip, then take damage from tektite in DMT costing 3.5s, you'd also need to jump platforms twice and get rube is grass, 1.5s extra.  This would save 3s to get 2nd bug, 4s to sell bug, 9s to buy seeds, 3.5s to throw seeds.  Saves 3+4+9+3.5=19.5, takes 1.5+2.5+3.5=7.5 (12s saved, requires 2 nuts in 6 trees)

You need the bugs in your C bottle for the switch trick in DC. You only sell the ones on B, which you don't need anymore anyway (since B will become a deku stick soon). Catching the 2nd set of bugs on C is faster than not having bugs for DC.

I'm pretty sure that the Deku Nut drops from the trees are 5 each, not 10, so you would need 3 drops to be able to set the amount at 13 without RBAing them. There's barely enough time to check 2 or 3 trees and still take enough damage from the poe. I'm all for getting a random drop and skipping buying them in the bazaar if it happens, but relying on that is garbage and requiring multiple drops is pretty unreasonable. You're gonna need more than an extra 7 rupees anyway. Normally you end child section with 80-85 rupees, then you're gonna pay Ingo 20 before the egg hatches. Shield is 80, stick is 10. Even if you get enough Deku Nut drops to have 13 without RBAing them, you're gonna need around 20-30 magic rupees out of nowhere. Starting the Adult section with 99 won't even cut it since you'll be at 79 from Ingo's games.

(For the record, this route isn't just the first thing we came up with after wrong warping was found. There was a good amount of testing, timing, and thought put into lots of different competing routes.)