ZSR Forums

What would be required for a 100% run? On my hero mode file I tried to get 100% but then I didn't care for time. Obviously all heart pieces and all items (upgraded if possible, like lv3 master sword, red mail and hylian shield) on the 'gear' tab, and all 100 Maiamais.

Would getting blue mail be necessary?  Because when you get red mail, it just 'overwrites' the blue mail. And would upgrading all items be necessary? And getting the great spin attack?

Also, the bee badge is kinda RNG dependant. I got like 5 gold bees on my 2nd playthrough but none on my 1st. I ended up accidentally buying one in the skull woods for 888 rupees from some dude in a cave...

I'd say the blue mail wouldn't be necessary. Just like the Goron Bracelet and Silver Gauntlets aren't counted in OoT 100%. And yeah, upgrading all items should probably be counted including getting the great spin. As for the Bee Badge, just plan the route out to get the 888 rupee one, but have some optional rupee chests cut out alon the if you get it the rng way.

I'd like to think that all of this is required... I'm sure a lot of people will agree:

* All 20 Hearts
* All Items (Bought and upgraded)
* 100 Maiamai's (obviously need these for the upgrade, but still)
* Great Spin (100 Maiamai reward)
* Level 2 Master Sword (Butter Blade)
* Stamina Scroll (skippable?? I think, but it's in the gear menu)
* Bee Badge (it's in the gear menu)
* Hylian Shield (skippable, but it's an upgrade)
* Pegasus Boots (in case someone finds some glitch to do the race without them, they still show up in the gear menu)
* Red mail (Best mail) - I guess, like ALTTP, the Blue one isn't required if you can go straight to red.
* Hint Glasses - not a fan of this but it is an item and it does show up in the menus...
* All 5 Bottles
* Bug Net

I think I'm missing something, if I am... feel free to correct me.


ALSO, I would like to route in just buying the Golden Bee to get rid of some bullshit reset fest of no golden bee before Lorule... But we all know we'll probably just go for RNG...

You missed the 5 bottles. (And maybe the bugnet, since I guess it's skippable if you get the golden bee for 888 rupees)

Added. Good point.

There's apparently a bug net and lantern upgrade for completing the last level of tower of treachery twice or whatever its called.

I'll go test that right now, will report back soon..

edit: ok so yea, theres 2 upgrades, both require you to complete advanced (3rd difficulty, you get the HP from completing the 2nd) in treacherous tower. This also earns you like 4-5k rupees per completion.

The official guide book says this, so I'd assume it's right. It would count towards 100%.

It is correct. I have both upgrades. It makes them 8 times stronger, and prefix them with "Good".
First Lantern, then Net. (So you must do 2 runs, and clear the 2 previous difficulties) You need original net to upgrade it obviously.

This is true, there is a super bug and super lamp... it may also be a good place to get money in 100% (the tower)

New List:


* All 20 Hearts
* All Items (Bought and upgraded)
* 100 Maiamai's (obviously need these for the upgrade, but still)
* Great Spin (100 Maiamai reward)
* Level 2 Master Sword (Butter Blade)
* Stamina Scroll (skippable?? I think, but it's in the gear menu)
* Bee Badge (it's in the gear menu)
* Hylian Shield (skippable, but it's an upgrade)
* Pegasus Boots (in case someone finds some glitch to do the race without them, they still show up in the gear menu)
* Red mail (Best mail) - I guess, like ALTTP, the Blue one isn't required if you can go straight to red.
* Hint Glasses - not a fan of this but it is an item and it does show up in the menus...
* All 5 Bottles
* Super Bug Net
* Super Lamp

Just for convenience, here is a list of all HP, and how to get them
http://www.zeldadungeon.net/wiki/A_Link_Between_Worlds_Heart_Pieces

Maimai's
http://www.ign.com/wikis/the-legend-of-zelda-a-link-between-worlds/Maiamai_Locations

This is the category I am really looking forward to, like, I am so hyped for this. 

Would Activating all of the Bird statues count towards 100%? And what about entering the Fissures? Both of those appear on the map, so should we count them?

You definitely need to survive the endless cucco minigame for 999 seconds to get the cucco in link's house reward for true 100%.

In all seriousness I think that all compasses should be added to the list. I also agree that activating all weather vanes should be added, but I'm not sure about "all fissures." Fissures are always accessible and they don't count as a collectible unless you consider updating the map as a collectible. Either way, I vote no on that seeing as that would potentially be a pain in the ass for 100%.

You'd honestly enter most ot the fissueres in 100% either way, because many of them leads to Maiamai which aren't obtainable otherwise, others take you to the next zone in Lorule, so it wouldn't make a big difference at all. I wouldn't really care if it's required or not, but I am pretty sure that it wouldn't be a big difference, probably a few of the Stone Pillar Fissuers would be removed, and maybe at a river, but that's about all I can think of right now.

Forgot to put this in this topic, I posted it in the Glitches/Tricks/Timesaving topic earlier:

Swamp Palace early switch via upgraded Bow thought of by FaschZ, ZFG and myself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PZdyNhCzEI

Okay so it probably wouldn't be hard to accomplish. Either way, seeing as how you're not required to get every chest in a dungeon even though it updates the dungeon map you shouldn't be required to enter all fissures for the same reason. They're always accessible, unlike the weather vanes you need to activate in order to have them unlocked.

Getting 999 seconds for a 100% run sounds completely stupid. Surviving for 17 minutes in that game is super nearly impossible hard. Making that an official rule for 100% would lead to very very few runs being actually completed. and any runs completed would all have to be segmented so runners could repeat that segment hundreds of times until they got it so time wouldn't be lost. I personally vote no for this requirement. Unlock endless mode by beating advanced for heart piece, that's it... ;)

...the better question is why people are still discussing this, joke or not.

Yes, I totally understand. I'm not saying that I actually want them to be entered, I just mean that it wouldn't make a difference to me. I would honestly prefer if it wasn't required though.
And to be honest, I've never liked the idea of skipping dungeon chests, I always collect them all in my 100% files, which I can imagine most people would do, but it's simply not required in speeruns because people don't want to bother with it, which to be honest is a shitty reason. Requiring them would make for more interesting dungeon routes, and tricks, which would improve the watching value. Dungeons will basically be identical to any% in a 100% at this point.
However, I know no one will ever change the 100% definition to include a thing such as dungeon chests because at this point everyone consider it useless and dumb, so I won't even bother trying to convince anyone of this, ever. (Hell, people even think getting compass shouldn't be required, how would I ever convince them to get a monster gut or rupee chest)

Here is a thought... probably won't happen.... but why not not split the 100% category into two categories. One called 100% regular, and one called 100%(plus 100% dungeons) that way there is no arguing. just a thought I dunno. I just hope some "official" rules come out soon so I can actually try to make a legal run at this.

I don't consider opening all dungeon chests "useless and dumb," but there are reasons to not include it. TP is a good reason. If you're maxed out on rupees (easy to do) you have to put them back in the chest which would mean leaving the dungeon and buying shit to open up every chest. Not to mention opening up every overworld chest would be necessary with the same logic and that's nealy impossible to prove in a speedrun.

-Defuzed, the reason for defining 100% is to avoid separate official categories, not to create more...

Here's a poll people can vote for what's necessary in 100%. It was shared in #albw and Alphaparticle wanted someone to post it for him https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1OVZRPwZSWuTLF4g462WES_kw6pw4ZaxqzYOvenza0qE/viewform

I'm seeing all this talk about going straight to the red mail... does this actually work? I would think that Lorule Castle's chest would give you the blue mail if you don't have it already, with the swamp's chest then giving you red at that point.

...why are half of these even options? The only thing that should even be debated is the compasses.... the rest of these are either complete obvious Yes choices or completely retarded choices... such as the 999 second Cucco game. Not a single person will ever do this in a run... I'm guessing you're just goofing around and joking with it.


In the logic of ALTTP, even though this isn't ALTTP, it would work... They're two separate items and probably do not have flags attached to each other... Give it a try in a file sometime if you're super curious, but it's 99% likely we can go straight to red mail.

I put everything I could think of -- I pulled most of it from this very thread. I didn't even know 999 cucco was a thing until I read it here. Yes most are obvious (as I even said in the doc). No it wasn't meant to be official. I just wanted to see what people were split on. It's obviously not a super serious poll. <'><

Blue Mail might be a good idea depending on how early Treacherous Tower is done, which the earlier, the better, since it's the #1 way for rupees and we have to clear it four times anyway for all upgrades. Not exactly a necessity, but a luxury, for sure. How much time is lost from getting the Blue Mail, anyway? I don't recall it being explicitly out of the way.. I think.

Yes, but in all honesty, the treacherous tower is actually quite easy to do. Since this is only done in 100% percent you obviously will have everything(besides red mail) already aqcuired. So take upgraded fire rod and tornado rod+ great spin attack. This makes treacherous tower the 50 floors of boom all dead in seconds tower. ;D

When I first brought it up I was joking about the cucco, I had no idea others would actually take it seriously. Also, not my poll ._.

For what actually matters:
-No compasses, it seems people generally prefer this and it's best to stay consistent with alttp 100% rules where applicable.
-All weather vanes, ZFG's been routing it this way and it's a logical decision, most will agree.
-Portals aren't required, there are some portals that aren't necessary to go through yes, but there's no reason to merge through all of them. There's no reward and they're always active as said before.

I say we just add weather vanes to the list and finalize it.

I didn't take it very seriously. I added it to the poll because it's a thing in the game. I think it's silly that anyone got upset about such a poll.

Why even discuss what constitutes "100%" if you're going to automatically dismiss a few things? I agree with the general opinion here (yes weather vanes, no compasses or portals) but I wasn't going to exclude things because of that, even if it seems really stupid (maxed minigames).

We discuss it because quite simply there's nothing that actively tracks the % you have completed the game as. Some things are relevant for dismissal for a lot of reasons. A completionist, like I, would talk to every single NPC and read every single point of dialog available, but do we count that as part of 100%? No, not really.

In Zelda games, most people consider anything that increases power or utility as part of 100%. Weather Vanes increase utility because it increases the amount of places you can warp to. Playing a Cucco Minigame for 20 minutes to get a statue that is purely cosmetic is neither of these. Similarly, OoT 100% doesn't get the Cow in Link's House.

That said, filling out the map with the Portals doesn't really increase either power or utility because they're always there anyway.

--

I've been working on a 100% route last night and today. I'm about to head into work for a double-shift, so I won't be able to complete it until probably Monday. This pastebin (http://pastebin.com/xjRunQPn) details how far I've gotten. There's a few mistakes in the numbers that I need to revise once I go back through it again.

The basic idea goes:
. Follow any% route except get more $$$ until Lorule
. Thieves Hideout -> Skull Woods -> Tempered Sword & Hyrule Minigames -> Swamp Vane -> Ice Ruins -> Desert Palace -> Lorule Minigames (Possibly?) -> Dark Palace
. From there, general clean up with a few necessities: need to get lots of rupees, likely from the Treacherous Tower. Lots and lots of rupees. A lot of Maiamai clean-up. Last two dungeons in whichever order shows to be optimal. Buttered Master Sword whenever.
. Finish game.

I won't get to play but I'll try to keep up with the thread over the weekend, if anyone has comments or concerns on this. The final clean-up is very rough in my mind as I haven't been able to mark down notes while playing through what I think will work.

Since ZFG is incipacitated with trying his route out in a real run:

Skipping Blue Mail is NOT AN OPTION - the chest for Red Mail will give you Blue Mail if you skip Blue Mail in Swamp Palace.

I was thinking the blue mail might actually be worthwhile either way for treacherous tower since it's not very far out of the way and more dangerous kamikaze strats could be used to make up for lost time.

As for all the items that need to be purchased I believe they all sell for 800 rupees and there's the 3000 rupees for the bottle.

9 items	820 * 9	7200
2 bottles	3000+100	3100
minigames/misc	~1000	1000

total being about 11300 rupees. I believe that 9000 for safe estimate can be knocked out from the treacherous tower alone (got over 5000 2nd time I beat the 50 levels and beating my previous time).
Note: When routing this link should enter with rupees at or slightly above the cost of the first entry level.

Brings the total down to 2300 rupees. After buying all the items, the best way to collect the remaining rupees in my opinion would be to open any rupee chests/collect rupees that are directly or almost directly in links path over the course of the speedrun (no idea what that would add up to).

Total goes down 2300 - MiscRupees
 Preferably at the very near end of the run, rupees should be spent on the 5th bottle (3000 rupees). If more rupees are needed I would suggest playing rupee rush until you have enough rupees to cover the expense of the bottle. In ~3-5 minutes you could bring the total down to 0 just from that minigame with good rupee rush strats/timing.

Edit: Forgot the 888 rupees for the golden bee, but all this means is that right before/after purchasing ravio items to buy this at skull woods and rupee rush will probably be necessary. Unless of course we start relying on RNG or somebody finds a way to manipulate the golden bee spawn to catch one in under 3 minutes so it doesn't need to be purchased.

I'm glad I'm not the only one that thinks Blue Mail is a good idea. My runs of Treacherous Tower on my casual 100% were with 20 hearts, Blue Mail, Butter Master Sword, and Great Spin, and both times on Advanced I finished Moldorm with a Quarter of a Heart. Fifty floors isn't exactly something to sneeze at, even with the Nice Hammer/Nice Tornado Rod at your disposal. I'm honestly relieved that it will be required for Red Mail, now.

I did some quick runs of TT to count the profits:

Beginner - Costs 100 Rupees. Completion dropped 10 * Red Rupee, 10 * Blue Rupee, 20 * Green Rupee, for a profit of 170 Rupees. (Also got a Purple Rupee for prize)
. time taken - 31 seconds

Intermediate - Costs 200 Rupees. Completion dropped 5 * Silver Rupee, 3* Purple Rupee, 8 * Red Rupee, 6 * Blue Rupee, 5 * Green Rupee, for a profit of 645 Rupees. (Silver Rupee for prize but irrelevant because we only do Int once for Heart Piece)
. time taken - 1 minute 50 seconds

Additionally, my Advanced run has a time of 8 minutes, and I went from 500 Rupees to 9999 from the two runs. I estimate prize drops to be 4000-5000. Fortunately, with the Ice Ruins relatively early in the route (a necessity for the Scroll, which has at least 20 seconds of saved time), all that's needed is a warp to Lorule Death Mountain at whatever point the Treacherous Tower is placed at. Most likely, this will occur after both Great Spin and Butter Master Sword, for obvious reasons. If the TT could somehow be completed with minimal time lost with the Tempered Master Sword, it might could occur before Great Spin to reduce one visit to Mother Maiamai. Theoretically speaking. I don't expect that to be a thing though.

Lorule Rupee Rush would not be a good method of making money. There are plenty of easy-to-access Gold Chests, and with the profits made from succeeding at all the minigames should cover the final costs. In fact, in my preliminary routing, I probably am grabbing rupee chests far, far too liberally.

I think the best way to do this then is buy the Tornado Rod and one more item (bow maybe, or perhaps bombs) sometime before we do Treacherous, upgrade them and then do treacherous tower with it (although is it really worth it to take the time to upgrade them just for Treacherous?), and then use the rupees you get from Treacherous to buy the rest of the items and the 3000 rupee bottle. I forget how to get the Great Spin, but if that is the reward for all 100 Maiamais, then I suppose we'll have to do Treacherous without it.

For my route, we'd have beaten Thieves', Sand, Swamp, and Skull Woods before we do Treacherous (I propose we do it right before we go through death mountain), and so that would be at the very least 10 hearts, and at least one more because of heart pieces, which doesn't seem ridiculously out of the question.

I finished my first draft of my 100% route http://pastebin.com/VVrBY0UG .  It's kinda sloppily written since I'm lazy but should be readable.

I did a run with this and got 5:02:36.  I'm sure this route is far from perfect but it feels like it flows very well.  I'm sure there's plenty of possible improvements but this is just a first version.

lol ZFG: "activate blacksmiths text by going away a screen and back????"

I think the route looks like a solid start. I see no reason to buy the bee badge until the last visit to kak as there's no benefit to it. The only thing that rupees should be spent on before TT are renting items and minigames. Also the bottle should definitely be bought after you return to kak to buy the net.

Suddenly, game over due to bees.

On a more serious note, there's a potential run killer with maiamais http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0v5gjtuqeg
It could be that the count is wrong, or it could be the Deku Stick upgrade sort of thing

I'm sure we can still do Ice Ruins before Desert Palace in 100%. There's no Maiamai under any large rocks that require Titan Mitts in the portion of Hyrule's Death Mountains that you visit nor the Ice Mines/Ice Ruins portion of Lorule's Death Mountains, so you wouldn't return a second time following obtaining the Titan Mitts. The way my route has it is to activate the Misery Mire Weather Vane, warp to Hyrule, but go straight to Death Mountains. Once you finish Ice Ruins, warp straight to Misery Mire, and the amount of time saved from having the scroll to enter dungeon outweighs the time lost from the extra portal usage. The Maiamai in that area can be grabbed easily before or after the dungeon. Just an example since I had it planned to do most of the minigames before Ice Ruins.

Going to give ZFG's route an actual run-through pretty soon.

As for the Maiamai bug, I thought it might be if you "discover" a Maiamai but don't pick it up that would cause that, but upon testing it, that didn't work. The count lowers when you pick up the Maiamai. Interesting issue, and hopefully it's not because a Maiamai just outright stopped existing for some strange reason.

Edit: One potential problem is how early the cucco game is. I got three shots at the Rooster level, which admittedly should be enough but I'm bad and, well.. fat cuccos happened.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22765223/IMG_20131201_110606.jpg (Pictured: 6 fat cuccos [one under the text box] on the same half of the field)

Edit 2: Completed a run at 6:48:13, with a few small breaks and general faffing about here and there.

I think the big thing that bothers me is the timing of the Treacherous Tower. With the Great Spin, I can complete the Advanced stages in 8 minutes; however, at the point in the route it is timed (14 hearts, green mail, no Nice weapons) my faster run was a little over 11 minutes. I'm definitely not explicitly good yet, and had to spend some time being careful, but the Great Spin still has a tremendous difference on those 50 floors.

I'm also confused about why the route gets the Weather Vane to Turtle Rock, then goes to do Ice Ruins. Is there something you wanted the Scroll for Turtle Rock?

I put the bee badge where it is to get rid of the golden bee as soon as possible to free it up for fairies for TT.  I was considering adding in the skull woods area cleanup (which is when you would buy the golden bee) after titans mitt so you get the one under the titans mitt rock at that time too but didn't test it out yet.  This sounds like it should be a good idea, as long as you route in getting the bottled letter/premium milk before it as well.  I was never able to get anything less than 3 cycles on the ice ruins boss with gold sword, and lv2 sword also does it in 3 cycles so I guess you're not really losing much time not having it.  You also don't have the nice fire rod but that really doesn't save that much time in IR anyway.

I do TT as early as possible to get all the rupees needed as soon as possible.  If you want to upgrade anything before TT, you're going to need to go out of your way for rupees.  The rupees you get there have you set for the rest of the game so it seems like a good placement for getting upgrades decently early + not needing to go out of your way for rupees + having the best sword to go decently fast.

As for the turtle rock weather vane, you do use the ice rod a bunch so the stamina scroll seems like it would save time.  Also, the last maiamai in the lorule lake cleanup is right next to a portal so it's much faster getting to hyrule from there than after IR.

One other thing I'm not sure about is the placement for skull woods, specifically for the boss.  He takes forever with the Lv1 master sword and the Lv2 would definitely help, but doing dark palace before desert is probably not a good idea and desert with Lv1 also sounds bad. idk

Would it be faster to do this clip to skip grabbing the additional big bomb:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0V6T2Dc-7Q
I looked at the route, and it seems like it would be faster to do that after finishing swamp palace. However, I've failed to do the clip multiple times. It seems too risky unless someone can find a position that makes it succeed every time.
Would be great if someone could find a faster way to get up on the ledge above the big boulder. I tried using enemies in the corner there and tornado rod, but I didn't manage to get up on the ledge. I bet it's possible somehow.

This should also save a few seconds: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBRCxHdaL4E
Not sure if people already knew about this.

I was actually thinking about giving that a try today. Just in theory, the less visits we have to pay to an area, the better.


I was aware of this, but in your route it might be a bit difficult unless things are shuffled around at Hylia Lake. For 100% it wouldn't save but 10-15 seconds, anyway, so it might not be worth it unless the route changes drastically for optimizations.


This is true, I'm just concerned about potential time loss for not having the Great Spin. TT is still doable, and ideally it should always be done as soon as possible. Do we need to get all of the upgrades to get Great Spin? Maybe doing just one Advanced run, grabbing the last Maiamai there, buying important items for Nice (Bow, Hookshot, Fire, Bomb, Hammer?) then warping back later in the run with Great Spin would save a little bit of time, give us the benefit of early Nice Items, and be a lot safer, too. I'll see if I can test that out today.

edit:


Welp. Fak u Mother Maiamai.


I had a potentially silly thought that I'm going to explicitly time in a short bit to test: Go into Skull Woods, get Master Ore, Big Key, Scoot Fruit, move on with route. Add the Skull Woods boss to the Skull Woods clean-up. The mid-way teleport that you will activate unless a huge Skull Woods skip is found takes you two rooms from the Boss Door, with the only obstacle being a slowly moving platform. Any time lost from getting the Scoot Fruit + Travelling back through the dungeon should be easily negated by the Level 2 Master Sword speeding up the boss fight.

I'm going to get a file up to the Big Key chest, and I'll time how long it takes to do the boss then get the tempered sword vs. how long it takes to get the tempered sword then do the boss. Hopefully it'll save a notable amount of time because that boss just sucks with the Level 1 Master Sword.

Edit: I tried testing it out. Here's what the basic criteria of the test was to try to facilitate an equal comparison:

1. Obtain the Tempered Master Sword.
2. Defeat the Skull Woods Boss.
3. Timer starts at first control near the Big Key chest.
4. Timer stops in Lorule at first control.

For consistency, I only used the Portal in the Stylish Lady's House.

Tempered Sword, then SW Boss: 5:39.87. Five cycles, possibly four? I did not use Scoot Fruit, could possibly be faster depending on time lost getting a Scoot Fruit vs. time saved.
SW Boss, then Tempered Sword: 5:48.182. Seven-eight cycles. Should probably be faster but I fell down a pit on the boss and delayed a few seconds.

Might be worth checking out in more detail, but it looks like it wouldn't save a dramatic amount of time, even considering that there would be less wasted movement in a real run (i.e. not using the Stylish Lady's House Portal to return to Skull Woods).

I have yet to test it out, but someone in the irc mentioned that golden bees have a high appearance rate next to rupee rush in lowrule. I'm not sure it's worth getting the golden bee that late in the route but I do believe there are hot spots that are guaranteed to save time over buying a golden bee and if you can catch one there consistently within 2-3 minutes, it would probably be worthwhile over buying the golden bee and doing a skull woods cleanup. Perhaps, I should start looking for hotspots closer to kak idk. 888 rupees just seems like a lot before TT.

Also I see nothing wrong with doing dark palace first. The boss wouldn't take much longer with the lv1 master sword. Desert palace might be an issue? mzxrules started working on a dmg chart so that will probably help with dungeon order.

Speaking of which, one more thing that might be worthwhile for 100% is purple potions. I have no idea how many monster guts are acquired over the course of a 100% speedrun, but I feel like 4x the base dmg of the mastersword could really speed up TT, rooms filled with enemies you need to kill,  and potentially boss fights. It all really depends and I know fairies are practically required for TT but this is a speedrun, fuck babby strats and focus on the most optimal route. Fuck practicality, besides, what other zelda speedruns would require fairies?

So, over the past while I've been writing a different 100% route (before ZFG even started his), and I have basically finished it. I'm missing 7 Maiamais from the route, so I'll add them when I find out which ones are missing when it's the most convenient. Let me know if I've missed anything else, or if something I have in the route is completely stupid and doesn't work, or there's just an obvious route change that I should make.

The route: http://pastebin.com/dUxvEGQ5

I haven't done a trial run of this yet, so maybe when I get the 7 maiamais in somebody can do that? (I don't really have the time to do a 5+ hour run all at once)

The big issue that I can think of is that there is at least one Maiamai in that area under a Large Rock, and it's really quite deep into the area as compared to the one in Skull Woods that you'd be missing, so we'd be returning in some fashion post-Desert Palace. Given the timing I got of leaving Skull Woods to get the Tempered Sword then returning, I expect that would actually make it slower. Also, I know 'fuck babby strats' but Dark Palace isn't exactly fun to do when a) trying to be fast and b) having little health to spare.


What other Zelda speedrun has a 50-floor rush of enemies? :P They're possibly worthwhile.. but at the same time, my 7 hour run ended with 23 guts, and that number will only become less and less as I get more efficient. Furthermore, it's only a single room of usage, of 50. I can actually only think of one room bad enough that I would want that (with the two large penguins and slippery floors and high chance of falling if you spin attack). Assuming an optimal time of an Adv. run of TT is 10 minutes, then that means 12 seconds per room, and I can't think of many rooms that went obscenely over that number in my last run. It was just a slog in general. I'm not opposed to Purple Potions, but I don't think TT is the place for it, really. Does the Purple Potion work on boss fights? I'm going to test it on the Helmasaur in Dark Palace to see what happens, actually. I have a save file where I can do that.

edit: PP immediately breaks his helmet, does not hit him through his 'Shadow Dash', does not skip his 'Shadow Dash' in any way if you're using the Tempered Master Sword. But, it does work on bosses, strangely enough.


The Tempered Master Sword comes pretty late. L1 Master Sword for the Ice Ruins boss slows things down, and you don't even upgrade it in time for the Treacherous Tower. Even with being able to knock enemies down pits, that just kind of terrifies me.

In terms of returning to area later for maiamais and whatnot, potentially just skipping bosses and returning to them might be faster in some cases. With butter blade sword and great spin from all maiamais, ive killed almost every boss within 30 seconds. The great spin has so much range and damage with butter blade, most bosses go to critical health in one hit. So if there was a time efficient way to skip the bosses until after great spin and butter blade is gotten, time in boss fights would be incredibly lowered from the testing ive done.

I think the Great Spin would potentially save time on Helmasaur, if not for the fact that there's a Maiamai inside the maze that ideally you would get after defeating Helmasaur because you skip most of the maze anyway..

Skull Woods is a definite possibility - I've already tested coming back with the Tempered Sword and it breaks about even on time, so coming back with the Gold Sword would probably end up saving time. The only thing is that ideally a Scoot Fruit would be routed in so you can get out quicker after getting the Big Key.

Desert Palace is a possibility - you get the Titan Mitts before you get the mid-way warp, making it a relatively low loss to leave the dungeon and come back later. I don't think you could kill the Desert Palace boss that much faster with Great Spin, though, so I don't personally think it'd be worth it. (He doesn't have extended periods of invincibility like the Skull Woods boss or Helmasaur.)

Swamp Palace and Ice Ruins wouldn't benefit much from better sword damage because most of the time is spent using items to deal with a particular phase of the boss. Turtle Rock I think would be the best possibility since all it would require is another warp to that Weather Vane. There's no need to go into the dungeon at all.

Do you need the original bug catching net to get the upgraded one from the tower?
Also, would it be fast to do Thieve's Town (get master ore) and then get the Sanctuary master ore, then do sand temple to get the Titan Mitts fairly early for any maiamais? With this you'd also have the tempered sword for skull woods and wouldn't have to scoot fruit out halfway and backtrack.

It would have to be tested for every boss, using each sword level. But it would save time for some for sure. I know for a fact on the ice ruins boss. I beat him pretty quick with great spin, only two cycles. First cycle one great spin made him critical, second cycle one great spin and two quick slashes killed him. I believe swamp palace boss is killed in only two great spins once he is hopping around. Butter blade on skull woods makes it a three cycle fight. First to make him angry and purplish, and then two attack phases after that(i did this with butter blade, but no great spin). Great spin or not, butter blade definately saves time on boss fights in every way.

You cannot get Lorule Sanctuary Ore until you have Titan's Mitt from Desert Palace

Then would getting Titan's Mitts, leaving, getting Sanctuary ore, then finishing sand and then going to Skull Woods be faster than leaving SW? Or is the Master ore less far through that dungeon than the Titan's Mitts are in Sand Palace?
Also would getting Titan's Mitts this early help save time collecting the Maiamais?

Not an explicitly large amount of time. The biggest thing about Titan's Mitts is to get it before Dark Palace, really. There's a few Maiamai in Hyrule you need the Titan's Mitts for, and in a few of those spaces there's a nearby Portal with another Maiamai you need Titan's Mitts for, so you really end up passing most of the Maiamai under large rocks just on the way to the Desert Palace anyway.

Doing the Desert Palace halfway is a very solid possibility, though, just given where the warp pads are located. It's only slightly out of the way in the entrance, but not only is the warp pad located near the outside where you could use Irene's Bell, it's also after Titan's Mitts and placed pretty much perfectly for that purpose. Desert Palace is probably the best dungeon to do halfway then finish later.


The Ice Ruins boss is already three cycles without Great Spin, using both the Tempered Sword and the Butter Sword, and the mid-way portal of the dungeon is still kind of out of the way. We want to go in there to have the Scroll for Turtle Rock, and really, an additional cycle isn't extremely slow for that boss as compared to others. It might be a time-saver, but I think it would be kind of minimal, honestly. I'll try testing it out tomorrow morning, though.

The Swamp Palace boss doesn't really waste that much time when you've got him hopping around, plus you can use the Ice Rod to freeze him anyway. In ZFG's route, the Swamp Palace is the last dungeon, though, so it could very easily be possible to just get Great Spin before even going in the dungeon without losing much time.

The Skull Woods boss is likely, because in my timings it comes up roughly even to get the Master Ore and Big Key and come back later.


Yes. Plus, chances are likely you'll need at least one fairy for the Tower without Blue Mail.

Not anymore. Treacherous tower is super easy now, upgraded firerod and tornado rod are all that you need, except for one floor where the ice rod really helps, but with those two, all you may need is one red potion for final moldorm, maybe two if unlucky. Im almost at sub 6 minutes for treacherous tower and I keep getting closer.

Should we make a floor by floor guide for treacherous tower? to help for the 100% runs, cause I foresee the Treacherous Tower being a potential run killer, and since it comes late in a run, it would be really frustrating to mess up here. I got over half the floors memorized, so making a floor by floor guide would be easy. Respond if you want it, and ill make a new thread about it

A guide would be helpful. There are certain rooms that could pose issues without a solid strategy for them.

Alright, unless someone else makes one first, Ill make a new topic about the treacherous tower and my strats to beat it quick floor by floor. should have it done by tomorrow

Would be nice if the guide was on ZeldaSpeedRuns

Yes it will be, at least the guide will be my own opinion open to criticism of course, but I will make it a new topic in the Link Between Worlds Forum

I haven't seen it discussed here so I'll ask it: Should a 100% run have one of each fruit (Scoot and Foul) left unused in your inventory when you defeat Yuganon? I've been thinking you should have those, since they appear on the Items Menu. You can hold one of each at a time, so if a route plans to be using a Scoot Fruit to exit a dungeon, then another stop would have to be planned to rebuy the Scoot Fruit.

Also, kind of related, I've seen some talk (not sure if it's still the case) about completing the Skull Woods dungeon in 2 visits, first getting all the way to the Big Key, Scoot out, and coming back with a better sword to grab the green portal and take out the boss. If that were to be implemented in the route, along with having a spare of each fruit at the end of the game being mandatory, then maybe going through the Big Key room a second time (after grabbing the key) and using the south exit would be better than using a Scoot. That exit leads you out in the Woods, and let's you use Irene to Warp away. It might just be faster than having to go and buy another Scoot Fruit, plus would save the money.

I would agree that 100% should end with all item slots filled. Only thing that doesnt need to be filled are the bottles. they can be empty, for they only need to be collected.

You can only have 1 Scoot Fruit at a time, and a Scoot Fruit is definitely a fast way to do the Desert Palace. So you'd need another one regardless.
I disagree in this case. It would be different were the items something other than 1 time use. It's not like you need to make one of each potion during the run.

Yes, my thoughts exactly. The only thing to add to that would be the Milk quest, that you would need to complete in order to have a fifth usable bottle

Yes I know you can only have one of each (one Scoot, one Foul) at a time. What I meant is about Skull Woods is that, using the south exit of the boss key room instead of a scoot fruit MIGHT be faster, because in the end it saves one trip to the shop for a new Scoot Fruit, regardless of if you actually use a Scoot in another dungeon or not.

Yes but that is actually different. Potions/Bees/Fairies don't have their own spot in the Items Menu, they just fill up a Bottle. The two fruits, however, do have their own spot in that menu. So, by having one of each during the Yuganon fight, you end up with a full inventory when Zelda gives you the Light Bow. The fact that it disappears from the menu after you use it (unlike remaining there with a pale "0" written on it, like the Deku Sticks in OOT and stuff) make me think we should require the player to have one Scoot and one Foul in hand during the Yaganon fight.

Good now that a lot of these issues are worked out, can an official 100% category and rules be added now? like make a list and have the community vote on it for the rules? Because I'm excited to get started running this and I have to wait to make sure I don't break any rules.

I'd like to quote something TestRunner said in regards to defining SS 100%: "If you can get an unlimited number of something, there's no reason to require it." These fruits, while appearing in the inventory, are infinitely attainable. So I still feel they should be excluded from the 100% definition.

That is a good point. In the end I suppose it will all come down to which way of thinking we will follow. It'll be either something the OOT's "obtain all items on the Item Select subscreen", or something like the SS's "If you can get an unlimited number of something, there's no reason to require it." I'm personnaly in favor of the first option (eh, who would have guessed xD), but I suppose it won't really matter after all, since all it will change is a ~1minute added to every 100% run and a need for 80 (? or 75?) more rupees.

80 rupees, just for clarification.

Another thing I don't remember seeing in this forum, are we requiring the first shield?

If the Shield you get in Turtle Rock is the Hylian Shield, even if you don't have the first shield with you (which I am pretty sure it is), then no we don't require it. (Like we wouldn't require the Blue Mail if you could get the Red one without it, like in ALTTP, but it doesn't work like that this time around.)

I saw your guide, and I responded with the primary issue there, but I'll also point it out here.

We can't have Great Spin for the Treacherous Tower. To have Great Spin, you must also have all 9 Items be upgraded by Mother Maiamai. While I don't think anyone has done an in-depth study, I think it's extremely likely that the Treacherous Tower w/o Great Spin wastes less time than getting all those rupees from another source.

Additionally, since the Treacherous Tower is one of our main sources for money, it actually comes quite early into the run, which makes it even more frustrating and punishing to mess up. Last night I died at Moldorm and lost 11 mins on what would otherwise have been a sub-5 hours.

After my modifications to what ZFG posted for a route, I do the Treacherous Tower with 12 hearts and green mail. Even once I get really good at it, I don't think I would go in without safety fairies ever especially since there's a Maiamai en route directly to a fairy fountain anyway.

Edit: I am entertaining the idea of Blue Mail early, though, which would trivialize the TT.

I hate to break it to you guys, but the giant cucco appears in the credits. Clearing the endless cucco game is required for best ending. Better start practicing.

(http://static-cdn.jtvnw.net/jtv_user_pictures/chansub-global-emoticon-ddc6e3a8732cb50f-25x28.png)

Welp.

Honestly I just tried Endless for the first time and got to 350 seconds without pause strats. It's actually a lot easier than Advanced IMO, but it might just be because I have to do Advanced so much just to get a run going.

Yea.... but the time for a run stops at getting the Triforce. No runs include watching the credits... So basically no giant Cucco. Screw that as criteria for a 100% run. Would be so stupid.

http://zeldaspeedruns.com/leaderboards/albw/stupid-ass-cucco
http://zeldaspeedruns.com/leaderboards/albw/99

mzx pls... (http://twitchemotes.com/favicon.png)

Tomrrow i start working on a very detailed 100% route. I dont have that much time because AGDQ is around the corner an im in charge of the german restream, but if someone wants a link to the google doc im working on and maybe even wants to help - just shoot me a pm :)