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http://pastebin.com/2RNbM9Vm

This is data petrie911 got from the input plugin on Dolphin + the address in the OoT ROM for inputs. The input on the right is the input on the VC version that is needed to get the input on the left. Pretty interesting.

this shows that VC uses 44% of the control stick and the rest is deadzone / max input

i'd love to see a hack that cuts the deadzone in half and cuts the max input into like a quarter (and evenly spaces out the rest of the input).

Me and the guy who made the N64 adapter that most people use (Raphael) are working on making a new version of the adapter that makes the VC control stick the same as N64. I've already talked to jewyama on SDA about this and he said it was fine since it's just for comfort of control (the VC control transformation is really just a big deadzone and a tiny bit of added sensitivity; ESS is still more than possible with it even if it does feel really awkward). It should be ready within the next month.

I did some testing with the F-Zero X WAD, since that game doesn't feel like it has much of a deadzone. On Mupen64, you have to set the controller's x-value to at least 7 to get the car to turn at all; it just goes straight otherwise. On Dolphin, the Gamecube's stick has a default of 128, and you have to set it to at least 150 to turn right (or at most 106 if you want to turn left). Relative to the stick's starting position, you have to push it 7 units left or right on N64, and 22 units left or right on VC to start turning.

What interests me about this is that 22 - 7 = 15. And, from petrie's data 16 - 1 = 15 as well. Perhaps it's nothing, but it seems like that can't be a coincidence.

So 7 on N64 = 22 on VC. Same as on OoT. So it seems Nintendo used the same mapping for each game on VC. Good shit.

Has anyone tried, like, emailing Nintendo and being all "yo, how's the VC control stick mapping? peace."

Very nice work though, you guize.

it would be good if a way to reduce sensitivity existed. FZX is so bad with the VC default.

There probably will be an N64 controller adapter fix for it in the near future (see my above post). :)

Hi there, I am fairly new to running OoT for if you don't know me.  ;)

Basically the fix for this never got made and that's why I started working on this about a week ago. Today I am happy to announce that I got it working and that ess is a lot easier in my experience with the converter I made.

I still need to do some improvements to it, since I still don't fully understand the scaling between N64 analog and GC analog (my N64 analog stick doesn't really reach values higher than about 75), so I don't know if I use the conversion table ING-X links in his first post correctly. The way I do it now was pretty much a guess and it turns out to work good for me and it makes ess a lot easier than normal. There are also some other improvements left for me to do.

The hardware I am using is the same as the raphnet adapter. To make it compatible with the raphnet adapter I think I only need to change an input/output pin I use, so it shouldn't be a problem to get it to work with it.


I will be posting some basic proof (video I guess) very soon and once I think the adapter and code is completely finished I will be looking into a way to supply everyone who wants an adapter with one. :)

i love you have my babies

I just tried out Majora's Mask and it doesn't work as expected. If I hold my analog stick up to maximum value Link doesn't walk at full speed. My guess is that Nintendo uses a different mapping between Gamecube input and the input that is generated to the rom. Would it perhaps be possible for someone to see if this is true, by making an input table for Majora's Mask as well. I would love to do this myself, but have no idea how. :(

I was already trying to find out myself if the emulator for MM really input differently by injecting OoT into the MM wad and see if Link also doesn't run at full speed then. I tried to use injectuwad for this, but it says the OoT rom is too big and I can't find another injector.

You said your N64 control stick goes up to a value of 75, right? If so then it does seem like Nintendo used a different mapping for MM :( . Sucks.

At least it should work for OoT. As of right now there's no way to get a mapping table for MM since it just crashes in Dolphin.

I don't know the exact number my control stick goes up to. I am probably gonna hook it up to my pc some time to find out. The thing is, if the mapping in MM was the same, it should work with any N64 controller that is functional.

I can still try to tweak it a little by hand, but it probably won't be exactly the same as on N64.

By the way are there any wads that MM is known to work with as an injected rom. Because then I can see how MM works with another emulator, that perhaps has the same mapping as OoT. That would confirm that MM uses a different mapping.

Edit:
By the way, if I pushed really hard on my analog stick Link would sometimes do run, so the values aren't that much off I think. I think that if we tweak and guess some values MM should still be very playable with this adapter.

Edit2:
I just downloaded Dolphin and tried it on a MM PAL wad and it didn't crash. I must say that it did run really awful and no sound. What I mean with awful is that it just skips through frames and it seems to run at a way too high speed. I do need to say that my graphics card is really bad.  I guess even with the fact that it runs so awful, the input must be functional, so I guess it should be possible to read out the mapping. If I knew how, I would try this!

Edit3:
MM PAL crashes when pressing start to go to the menu for me. But my guess is that the input layer from the Virtual Console emulator is also active before going into the menu, so it should be possible to read out which analog stick values the Virtual console emulator supplies the game for certain Gamecube controller inputs.

Edit4:
Using Dolphin revision 735 64 bits with PAL Majora's Mask wad. Only this version of Dolphin doesn't give me a crash (except that it crashes after pressing start ofcourse).

Allright I believe I have made a pretty decent mapping for Majora's Mask. I have done this by sending certain analog input values to my Virtual Console version of Majora's Mask and comparing these with corresponding N64 input that I retrieved from the TAS plugin from Mupen. Basically I had three analog stick values to compare with N64: value that Link starts turning, value that Link starts walking, value that Link starts running fastest. Maybe there are more easily recognizable analog input values, if anyone knows them they should tell me, because then I can get a better mapping table for the analog stick.

Here are the values I found:

Link starts turning/essing:
N64: 16
GC : 30

Link starts walking
N64: 28
GC:  41

Link starts running at fastest rate (this one was hard to recognize and might be a little off
N64: 66
GC : 77

Based on these observations I made a mapping table (http://pastebin.com/3PiAH1GR) by trying to make a linear function fit with Matlab. I am not very good at math, so I think this process could be done better. One thing to notice is that the region you can hold analog stick to ess in, is kept completely, no matter what conversion is done to generate all the unkown data, because it is generated to go through the values I measured. After this I programmed the new mapping table into my converter and it seems to work very well. I was able to do extended superslides with it.

I also found out that you start essing in OoT at a slighter angle of your analog stick. It only requires a value of 8 and you can hold it up to 26 before Link will start walking. Basically this means that essing was already easier in OoT on the N64 than in MM on the N64. If anyone is able to confirm this is true, then I would be happy, because that would indicate I probably didn't make any mistakes during the process.

Yeah, ESS'ing is noticeably easier in OoT.

I would recommend talking to petrie911 about getting the actual mapping table. It is not a linear function at all.

Allright I am pretty certain I have found the mapping table for MM. It can be found here (http://pastebin.com/L9eA57nT).  ;D

This was done with a PAL wad from MM in Dolphin by looking at certain memory addresses with "memory hacking software". The data I retrieved lines up with the data I found in my last post (N64 value 16 is GC value 30 for instance), so I am pretty certain I read the right memory addresses. Only problem there could be is that PAL and NTSC don't have the same mapping. I don't think this is the case though. Right now I am testing the converter with Darkeye's MM mod on my Wii. I use Darkeye's mod, because I found it really hard to find a legit NTSC wad for MM, most of them are injects into the PAL version (which the WAD I tested in Dolphin and I got the mapping from could very well be too (filename says NTSC, but Dolphin says PAL  ::))).

Good shit. If I may make a recommendation, have it so that holding up on the dpad while starting the adapter triggers the oot mapping and holding down triggers mm mapping (similar to how holding left/right changes sensitivity on the existing adapter).

I was thinking about the same thing. It should fit in the microcontroller.

Unfortunately I have exams next week, so I will be working on the code (needs to be cleaned up a little, maybe add features) the week after that. I don't know yet how I will do the fabrication of this adapter (no clue how much people want one), but I think I will put on a connector so you can reprogram it yourself (programmer is a usb device you can get for 3 bucks from ebay). This way eventual bugs or better mappings (though I am sure mm is correct now too) can be programmed on it and it could be reprogrammed for other games than Zelda.

Good shit. I look forward to finally seeing this happen.

Just a quick update. Code is pretty much finished. OoT mapping can be selected by holding D-Pad up when powering on the adapter and MM mapping can be selected by holding D-Pad down. I still want to test Majora's Mask a little more to see if the Japanese, US and PAL release feel the same.

Right now I am in the process of designing the circuit boards, so people can actually buy it. 

! Cool stuff.  :D

Good shit. It'll be cool to finally be able to play MM with both good controls AND no lag ;D

Wait, are you actually making a brand new controller or just a code to fix the sensitivity?

It's a new version of the N64->VC adapter with a new code to counteract the VC emulator's control stick mapping (the VC emulator remaps the control stick for the GC and Classic controllers which does not translate well to an N64 control stick).

My N64 sticks are already broken so I'll need to get one of those as well. How much is the adapter?

You need to use your own N64 controller for the adapter, it doesn't come with one.

Quick question, will there be anyway to put the code onto an existing adapter that I own without having to buy a new one or no? Just wondering, if I need to buy another adapter it's fine with me but it'd be nice to not have to buy another one.

I know, I just didn't mean it like that  :P Where can I buy a coded N64 adapter though and how much is it?

The new adapter isn't made yet, so you'll have to wait until it's finished. You can get adapters from http://www.raphnet.net/electronique/x2wii/index_en.php but they're pretty expensive and they don't have the stick fix (which makes the VC version feel really clunky compared to N64, exactly what we're trying to fix with the new version).

This should be possible. I use the same schematics for the adapter (on purpose). You would have to cut off the shrink wrap from your Raphnet adapter and temporarily solder a programmer to your pcb. You can get a programmer for 3 bucks from Ebay. If you think you are capable of doing this procedure, please let me know, because it is convenient to get some feedback.

I can do this, provided you supply the code.

I will only supply the binaries for now. I haven't really decided if I am going to release the source code, because I am afraid people will start modding it, to make ess even easier. I don't know how the community would feel about mods like this, so I will wait with releasing the source code a bit. It also shouldn't really be a problem if I don't release the source code when people agree the adapter does its job well.

Do you already have the equipment to program it? You need an isp programmer for this. If you need help with any of this, please let me know. I can't guarantee that my code will work with Raphnet's pcb, but I am 99% sure it will, because his code also worked on my own pcb.

I'll upload the binaries when I am on my laptop. It would be really nice to get some feedback from a more experienced Zelda player.  :)

I would also like to have the binaries. I already have an adapter so if it's relatively easy to insert the binaries into my own adapter then I'd like to do that so I can play VC with good controls ASAP.

I will have to order the programmer first, but I have the rest of the materials (besides the actual binaries, of course).

If people really want to cheat they will. Hiding your source is just going to make it a tiny bit harder, and make it far less likely anyone will consider the possibility when someone just rewrites it their self.

Here (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/23212729/N64.hex) are the binaries. These should work with the Raphnet adapter that has an ATmega8 microcontroller. If any of you guys have an ATmega88 version, then I'll try to port the code asap.

I'll post some explanation and images of how you can reprogram your Raphnet adapter later.

Also just made a video about the adapter: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAmUWBJ7tuM

Allright here are some instructions for if you want to reprogram your Raphnet Adapter yourself:

To reprogram your adapter you need an isp programmer. You can get one for four bucks here (http://www.ebay.com/itm/USB-ISP-ASP-Programmer-for-ATMEL-AVR-ATMega-ATTiny-51-Development-Board-/270998585847?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f18c641f7).

Once you have received your programmer you need drivers for it. You can get them from this page (http://www.fischl.de/usbasp/). Also, you are gonna need a program to be able to program your adapter. I recommend using Khazama AVR Programmer (http://khazama.com/project/programmer/).

To be able to program your adapter you are gonna have to carefully remove the heat shrink from it. Once you have removed it, you have to verify that your adapter uses an ATmega8. You can verify this by looking at the text on the chip. If you turn out to have an ATmega88, then let me know and I will try to port the code for your adapter, but as long as no one has an ATmega88 version I do not plan on porting the code.

Now that you have a bare PCB, you are gonna have to connect the programmer to your PCB. I recommend putting some solid metal core wires (stripped of course) into the connector from the programmer and solder the other side of wires to the corresponding pads of the PCB. There are six different wires you have to connect: VCC, GND, MOSI, MISO, SCK and RESET. VCC and GND probably have some wires connected to them already. These will have to stay either connected or have to be reconnected once you are done programming the adapter. Here are two images that show where these connections are positioned on the connector from the programmer and the PCB:

ISP connector pinout:
(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/23212729/AVRISP_howto4.jpg)

PCB with pads that need to be connected to the programmer:
(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/23212729/n64toGC_ZSR.png)

Once you have everything connected it's time to start Khazama AVR Programmer. I'll post a video soon demonstrating the steps you need to take. Basically it goes like this: first thing you do is check if you are able to read the chip's signature, so you can be assured that everything is working and connected correctly. After this you are ready to program the .HEX which can be found here (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/23212729/N64.hex).

Once your adapter is programmed there is a big chance the analog stick acts really weird. This is because you first have to select the preferred mapping. You can do this by holding the d-pad while plugging in the adapter. D-up is for OoT and D-down for MM.  :P

Thanks for this! Still waiting on my programmer, but I'll post an update in a few days when I'm finished or if I have any issues.

I successfully programmed mine. The Ocarina of Time controls feel perfect aiming and ESS angle changing are very easy. Majora's Mask still feels a bit too sensitive, angle changing is still pretty difficult (I know the ESS range is small on N64 too, but I don't usually have trouble doing a HESS with angle changing on that). Aiming is fine though.

Hm... maybe try both mappings for MM and see if the other one works better?

I should really get a programmer and do this mod myself. Only thing is I'm afraid of soldering the wires :(

It's about the same. I can do it with angle changing, it's just marginally more difficult than OoT. Also, using the OoT mapping in MM causes weird things like being unable to backflip.

OoT mapping indeed doesn't work for MM.

I'll have another look at MM. I can verify if the ess range is still the same, because I wrote a program that is able to send fixed analog stick values to my Wii. That way I am able to check for which GC value Link starts and stops turning. I can also check these values for the N64 version with an emulator and that way I can compare them and see if they correspond in the mapping table. I am pretty sure I did this last time, but it's been some time. I will check this for US version first.

I can also change the mapping table and make ess just as easy as on Ocarina of Time, but I don't know how people would feel about this.

Edit: maybe you just need to get comfortable with VC? I can imagine VC feels different from the N64 version in general.

I think I have figured out what is wrong with Majora's Mask. It's pretty awful, but don't worry, because it is fixable and I fixed it already in the sense that I am able to angle change really easy now. Basically Nintendo has a different mapping for when you hold your analog stick diagonal. I have confirmed this by sending fixed analog stick values to my Wii (with the mapping table I can then lookup which N64 value would actually be held) and see when Link starts and stops ess-ing. I did the same on an N64 emulator with a TAS plugin. The values I acquired didn't match. With the current mapping table when you hold diagonal you don't have to push the analog stick as far as on the N64 version. I checked the distance the analog stick would be removed from the center for when Link starts walking and in a lot of cases Link already starts walking for a distance of 20. On the N64 version I checked this and it was more like a distance of 30. In Majora's Mask Link starts essing when you only change one axis at a value of 16. What this means is that when you are gonna angle change you are gonna cross the x-axis and you have like a distance of 4 as a margin of error, which is way too less. I hope this is clear, but it probably isn't.

Making the field of ess-ing bigger in the mapping table isn't gonna work. The mapping for the diagonals is just too different, which means that the diagonals just expect way different GC values than the normal x- and y-axis, so it would never fit in one mapping table.

Right now I am fixing this problem by checking if the analog stick is held diagonal and accounting for what I send to the Wii. With this I am able to angle change really easy. During the writing of this post I came up with another method: a corrected mapping table for the diagonals. That last option will probably be easiest and best.

It would be really convenient if you were able to program your adapter. It isn't very hard and the adapter is pretty useless with the Raphnet code for the Zelda games. I am pretty sure your feedback is one of the best I can get. Perhaps you know someone that can help you solder it?

Edit: just a work in progress, but here is a link to a .hex with modified code that works better for me: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/23212729/N64_MM_Mapping_Table_V1.hex

Edit2: above one isn't that good either. Right now I am gathering some data and plotting some graphs, to figure out how I can fix this nicely. This will take some time, because I am also pretty busy with university, or at least should be lol.

Screw it, I want this working well so badly that I tried to fix it just now. Here's a link to the version in which even I can angle change really easily in mm.

Edit: It worked at first, then it didn't work anymore after rebooting. Got it working now. It was just bad programming. I'll upload it once I have tested it a little better.

I still need to play around with it some more, but as far as HESS goes -- that one was practically perfect.

The one I have right now is much better in my opinion and the fix actually makes sense. The one I sent to you was just guessing some values and finding out what works. I'll upload the new one very soon, once I have tested it a little more, I don't want you to flash something that gives really weird issues like it did for me yesterday.

Allright, I have tested and improved the last one, which I ended up taking offline. ESS region is pretty big on this one, and you don't have to hold the control stick as far as on the N64 version, it's almost like in OoT now. The older versions also suffered from being way more responsive when you held the analog stick diagonal. Basically this means that when you aim and you hold diagonal the response is way different from holding straight up, down, left or right. I account for this so that it doesn't react so heavily when you hold diagonal.

My thoughts on this version: ESS is really easy now probably and easier than on N64. Aiming is also pretty good, but it will never be as good as on N64, but a million times better than on VC. I fix a lot of stuff using an algorithm that checks how far the stick is away from its center and the value of the angle the stick is making, and sending different values to the Wii based on that. Because of this you might notice a little that when you aim your stick transitions from a certain state. It's not really that bad and it's still much better than on VC, as already said. I might look if I can have these transition zones a little more detail to them, so it's not noticeable at all anymore.

Here's a link to the newest .hex: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/23212729/N64_MM_FIX_LENGTH%2BANGLE_CHECK.hex

I don't know if I like this. The whole point of the mod was to make the VC controls at least closer to N64 controls. If we end up making it easier than N64 controls then I would argue that it gives an unfair advantage.

I suppose that's true. One of the reasons I made it easier, was because I am not very good at the angle change in MM, so it would be kinda hard to verify if it's working well. I am pretty sure I can make the ess region smaller again, but a lot of unpredictable stuff happened before, so I am kinda scared to make any claims.  :P

Edit: just tested it. If I change the settings so that Link will be in ess position when the stick has a distance from 16 till around 30 (these are approximately the values on N64) from its center I can still do the angle change fairly easy. Once again, I agree it's a bit fishy to make ess extremely easy. I'll wait untill Pheenoh has tested the most recent one I posted and if he likes it I'll let him try the one I just tried that is closer to the actual N64 version.

Hi. Sorry, I was busy yesterday. I've been playing with this one for a few hours, and it feels a bit tighter than the one you removed, but it's still really easy to angle change. In regards to it being easier than N64, I can't really say. If it is easier, the difference is so small I can't tell.

Allright, made the ess range more like on the N64 now and angle changing still no problem. Right now I am gonna try to make aiming better. Aiming will probably stay a little different from N64, but it's still beter than with GameCube controller.

ING, any chance you might still want to try to program yours? Your feedback would be pretty convenient. If you don't want to risk it, I fully understand though.

Thanks for the feedback so far by the way, Pheenoh. :)

I'll try to program my adapter, but I can't make any promises on when I'll be able to do so.

If you need any help, just let me know. If I would have to build you an adapter first it would take much longer, because getting the PCBs fabricated would take a few weeks already (the one I show in the video that I built myself is very fragile, so I wouldn't want to send that to someone).

Right, because having less lag is totally not an unfair advantage.  ::)

Well yeah, but with approximately 99.9999999999% of everyone using VC there really isn't much you can do. :P

Allright, just confirmed with a memory editor that the mapping for MM isn't as simple as just translating the X- and Y-axis individually. When I have the value on the Y-axis on the Dolphin TAS plugin with Majora's Mask fixed and I start moving the X-axis the value for the Y-axis will increase. This is basically already what I thought the problem was. I might have a new approach of fixing this than I had before. It would be to gather a lot of GameCube X and Y-values and the corresponding X and Y-values for N64. If I would then calculate a function that (if this is possible) approaches the gathered data, it could become a really nice mapping. I think that when I have a lot of data from the ess positions, this should work very well hopefully. This will take some time, but I think it's the best solution if it works.

I want to step away from a mapping table, because with a mapping table I will have to hardcode some stuff to keep the ess-region. This is a pretty arbitrary process and I find it very hard to make aiming feel good when you hold your controller in ess position, or when you go from ess position to walk position.

Edit: just a quick update. Just did some thinking on this. If I would want to do it with a mapping table I would need to make one that is 70x70 bytes. This doesn't fit in the RAM from the chip, but it could possibly fit into the flash memory. Right now I am busy writing a program that retrieves all the memory data I need. With this a 100% correct mapping should be possible, if we ignore the N64 values that are lost in the conversion project, since the GC stick only uses about 40% of the possible values. I hope this works, cause in theory it would be perfect.

I also cancelled the pcb designing for the adapter for now, because it could change, if it were to turn out that it doesn't fit on the chip. In that case I would have to get a new chip. Sorry if this project is starting to take a little long, but I want to do this as good as possible.

OK, I think I've got it. Here's a long story so people can see if it makes sense that I think I have fixed it:

Basically the N64 X and Y-value were dependent on both the GC X- and Y-value. This basically means that when, for example, you hold the Y-axis in position 30 on GC (which is 16 on N64) and you start moving over the X-axis, the N64 Y-value will change with it, even if your GC Y-value is still the same. What I did to fix this was make a lookup table of 70 times 70. In this table all GC-values are listed that correspond with the N64 value. I can use this really big lookup table for both the N64 X-axis and Y-axis, because the transformation to GC is symmetrical. The lookup table is 70 times 70, because this way it fits. Link will be running at full speed when you hold your N64-stick at value 70 anyways, and higher values just take the GC value at N64 place 70.

I got the mapping table by writing a program that would change the value of the GC analog stick in the Dolphin TAS plugin and then read out the N64 X and Y-values. When I got all this data a problem occured. A lot of N64 combinations don't exist. For example, combination N64 X=10 and Y=11 could very well not exist in the VC MM version. All the N64 combinations that did not exist were zero in the lookup table, so I somehow had to put in the best possible data in there. I wrote a little algorithm that checks which values are zero and then looks which N64 combinations do exist and chooses the one that lies close and has about the same angle.

After all this worked I tested it and aiming is super good now and the margin you have for superslides feels about the same as on my N64 PAL MM cart. Angle changing is also easily possible. I will check later if the region of ess is the same as on N64, by sending fixed GC analog stick values to my Wii and check when Link starts to turn.

The hex is here (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/23212729/N64_MM_HUGE_MAPPING_TABLE.hex). Pheenoh, before you try this one, try the older one one last time and see if aiming when you hold your analog stick in ess position makes any sense and then try it with the new one. :P

Yeah, the aiming feels alot less awkward now (it had good control on a small scale, but was pretty sensitive once you pushed the control stick all the way in one direction). HESS/angle changing and leniency on the diagonals feels close to the same (it's tighter than the one similar to OoT but still easily manageable). Are you gonna do a large mapping table for the OoT one too? I finally sat down and put in some time with one of the older mappings and realized the aiming was a bit strange, despite my first impression.

I'll have a look if OoT acts the same as MM, meaning the X and Y-values are dependent. If this is the case then I'll do the same as for MM. I actually doubt that the X and Y-values are dependent in OoT, but we'll see. Only problem is that two big mapping tables won't fit on an Atmega8. This would mean the raphnet adapters wouldn't be able to use the best conversion possible, but of course the .hex file in my last post can be used. As for my own adapter that I'll hopefully will be producing any day soon, I'll just choose a chip with larger memory, since the extra costs aren't that high anyways.

Just confirmed it: X and Y-values are also dependent in OoT; if you have a fixed GC X-value and you start changing the GC Y-value, the N64 X-value will also change. It's a lot less worse than in MM though, but definitely something worth fixing. What the hell, I never expected this was the case for OoT too. Next update will probably be a new mapping table for OoT. It will not include MM since it won't fit.

Ok, I haven't had much time to work on this because of exams. I did take a look into OoT's behaviour. The mapping table ING supplies in the first post is almost always correct. The mapping only changes when you are holding the analog stick diagonal and very far from its center. With far I mean that N64 values that are diagonal (so N64 X and Y values are about the same) and have a distance longer than 80 from the center (basically you hold your analog stick in a maximum position diagonally) don't have the same GC values as the mapping table that was used before. 80 Is a pretty high value for an N64 controller, I am pretty sure the one I use doesn't reach this value and others barely. This would basically mean that the only place where the mapping could feel off (the rest of the mapping is probably as good as it can be, it's on VC, so ofcourse it's gonna still feel a little different from N64) and be improved is on the really high diagonal values.

Pheenoh, could you try to describe what feels strange about OoT? Because making a big mapping table doesn't change a lot, except that it could potentially fix the really high diagonal values. Due to the fact that an N64 controller barely reaches these and I doubt you would feel a real difference, I don't know if it's worth it, because it would also mean that the code doesn't fit on a Raphnet adapter anymore. Also, the behaviour of the mapping is really weird on the high diagonals, which makes it really hard to find the best GC values for N64 data that never occurs.

Don't hate for necro, I'm genuinely curious about this.

I'm in contact with Raphaël because I'm scared of programming them on my own and he said he'd be willing to make the necessary adjustments if I gave him the .hex files.

Cool. It seems MM is all figured out but I care more about OoT. It seems that is working fine, though the last two posts made me worry a bit:

What's your status, whyieyesya?

Loving your work! As soon as I get the adapter and tested it, I'll be sure to donate you some money for your work.

Happy Holidays you all :)
Vulp

Soon I have holidays and I'll check it a bit better, but for now this is my conclusion for OoT:

The mapping for OoT should only be different when you hold your N64 control stick diagonal and very far from the center. The distance however is barely reachable with an N64 control stick as far as I know. Most N64 control sticks won't reach this point and I would be surprised if it is well noticeable that it is different when your N64 control stick does reach it. Let's just say it's the only theoretical drawback I could find, which probably isn't noticeable. I did try to make the same really big mapping table just like with MM, but I couldn't get it to work very quickly, so I kind of gave up, because it shouldn't matter that much anyways. Also, if I were to provide a big mapping table for MM as well as OoT it won't fit on the chip I am using right now and I would need another one, making it incompatible with the Raphnet adapter. MM is the game for which a big mapping table makes sense and it also needs it to function properly, so I didn't really bother with a big mapping table for OoT anymore, just because of some theoretical drawback, that probably isn't noticeable.

Extended superslides and precise aiming should be about as easy as on N64, because as I said earlier, only the diagonals where your control stick is far off center have a different mapping that isn't accounted for. Also, I have been playing a lot of OoT with this adapter and it's ten times better than without an adapter.

The firmware as of now, will not work well with every VC games. Super Mario 64 uses a really different mapping for example, that has no deadzone. I'll include a mapping that works the same as Raphaels adapter in the final firmware, so there is a mapping you can select that works for every game. I am also gonna look into the mapping from the GC versions of OoT and MM, allthough I think they are the same as the one OoT VC uses.

Eventually I am going to sell these as well by the way. I had some problems finding N64 extension cables for a good price, but I have them now. I only need to order the PCBs, which will happen soon. I'll aim my price to be lower than the one on Raphnet.

Awesome. Will definitely be getting one of these ASAP.

So when is this gonna be available? I'm actually thinking of getting back into MM and I'd really like to have one of these adapters ASAP so I can actually play VC without it feeling like an awful clunky pile of shit.

Sorry, didn't see your reply.

I received the PCBs this week and finally managed to get one of them programmed and running. Unfortunately I have tests this week and next week and after that I will be on holiday for a week, so basically I can ship one in three weeks. Would that work for you?

Yeah that's fine. That's actually much sooner than I thought lol.

Out of curiosity's sake, how much effort would be needed to make a GC pad version of the adapter? Complete overhaul, or..?

I was already planning it. I wrote some code but haven't had time to test it yet. At the moment I am having severe issues again with getting the code programmed to the chips (I managed to get one working), so it could potentially delay stuff. :( :(

Ah, that's interesting. I'll keep a closer eye on this thread, then. If you need a test dummy I'll be more than willing to help, I'm very interested in angle change sexiness without giving up GC pad. :D

I got the GC version working. Right now I am in the process of making the GC stick feel better. The GC stick is way more sensitive. If you for example use an GC to N64 adapter and you don't perform a conversion on the analog stick values from the Gamecube controller it will feel a little too sensitive. Right now I am trying to come up with a good fix for this, meaning I already fixed it, but it can probably be done better. :)

Unfortunately the PCBs I got are faulty. I had to order new ones, which I did like 1.5 weeks ago, but shipping is gonna take longer, because of Chinese new year. This means the N64 version of the adapter is delayed. The GC version should also work on this PCB, so by the time the PCBs arrive and work both N64 and GC version are gonna be for sale.

In case you are interested in the GC version, you can check out my stream (http://twitch.tv/whyieyesya), I'll be testing it this week.

i suppose i should write a small review seeing as how I got the first ever adapter.

I've had the N64-Wii Adapter for quite a while now (whyieyesya's custom one, that is) and it's working really well. The controls seem right, the movement is great and there's but one small downside:
(this is highly subjective) the z button (in oot) seems delayed by one frame.

I can't provide indisputable evidence as this will always be subjective (unless you use some technical devices that I don't own) but I noticed it. My unbuffered swordless DoT skip consistency on Emu (+ N64/USB adapter) and N64 was close to 100% before, so it was the first thing i noticed. Using the same timing and 'feel', I never managed to get the right frame; i was always exactly ONE frame behind.

Running around the place pressing Z makes it even more apparent, especially when you're used to the way it should work. At first I thought i was imagining it but I'm 100% sure now that the Z button input is delayed by exactly 1 frame.

Might be because this is a prototype, I don't know, but I've given up on unbuffered swordless dot skip because forcing yourself to do it one frame earlier than the thousands of times you've done it before is incredibly strenuous and I honestly don't want to go through that lol. Luckily the start button input isn't delayed at all, so that works well
Thought I should mention it. Might not happen with the other ones, but it certainly happened with mine. I consider it an acceptable downside to the fact that we can have both N64 controls and ESS position in particular as well as VC advantages.

kinda hax


Anyhow, the adapter is amazing, the multiple configurations work like a charm and... thank you, whyieyesya :)

cheers

I'll try to verify, if what you're saying about the Z-button is true. Should be easy to fix, if it is. It could also be your adapter. I'll try to figure out as much as I can and see if I can fix things for you as well.

What also might be the case, is that the difference between Project64 and VC emulation is screwing up things for you. As far as I know, practicing frame perfect tricks on PC and then switching to VC has never been a good idea.

Unfortunately the PCBs have only been sent to me this week, so it's probably gonna take two weeks before they arrive here.  :-X You can always PM me if you want to have the .hex.

The GC Version is pretty good, but its analog stick will always stay inferior for ESSing and angle changing compared to an N64 controller. I can still easily angle change with it though, but it's harder than with an N64 conroller. Getting the WESS with it is a lot easier (inexcusable if you miss it :P) and aiming makes more sense. Currently, I'm still tweaking the analog stick a bit.

Do you have an idea of how much your adapter will cost, and will you post to the UK? I speedrun Zelda OoT / Mario 64 and am looking for an accurate N64 adapter to use with the Wii VC, I was going to buy the raphnet one but this sounds like it will be more accurate for OoT? Unfortunately I don't have the ability to solder so can't update whatever I buy.

Price will be about 25$ with shipping, but I haven't fully decided yet. It's not gonna differ a lot from this estimate though. :P Shipping to the UK also isn't a problem. Hopefully I receive the PCBs this week.

The adapter is really good for OoT and aims for N64 like controls. I don't know the mapping for Mario 64 at the moment, but I can probably include it. My current firmware does have a universal mapping, which is exactly like Raphnet's adapter in order to make every game work. That one seemed to work fine for Mario 64 for me, because you don't really seem to need that much precision.

Thanks for the reply, sounds good, I'll definitely wait for your one. Yeah, the Raphnet adapter is fine for Mario 64, Siglemic is using one for 70-Star Mario 64 VC runs now so hopefully the universal mapping on yours can work as good as the Raphnet one.

Are you still planning on having a connector where people can reprogram/update it themselves without soldering (as mentioned earlier in the thread)? That would be a really nice feature even if it makes the adapter more expensive.

I received the PCBs and they are working like they should. This means I am probably selling them within a week (N64 version). I still want to test everything a bit and I'm also gonna check if the Z-button really has a one frame delay. The GC version is gonna take a bit longer, because I still need to find time to optimise the control stick feeling.

If it was practical I would have certainly done it. The problem is that heatshrink is the best I can do to give the adapter some sort of case.

OK, the current firmware has the following mappings: OoT VC, MM VC, OoT GC (convenient for Master Quest). It also offers the mappings the Raphnet adapters has, of which one is more sensitive than the other.

If anyone has any suggestions for the firmware, I'd love to hear it (offer different mappings for instance). I can probably sell them after this weekend. If you are interested in one, you can send me a PM. The adapter is 25$ with shipping.

I had a raphnet adaptor for running DK64 & SM64 it was good but I lost it, I was going to buy another but want to start running Zelda MM too so this sounds like a better option. Will it have levels of adjustable analog stick sensitivity like the raphnet adaptor, e.g hold d-left / hold d-right while connecting, or just two profiles with different sensitivity? Did you look at the potential issue mentioned by Vulpone too? Sorry if I sound like I'm being fussy just checking because I can't solder to update if any problems are fixed later.

thanks

OoT and MM each have their own special mapping to make it feel like on N64. The controls on the N64 are perfect imo, so adding a sensitivity setting is useless. It would also probably ruin ess, so there isn't really a point for it. The adapter also comes with two universal mappings that are about the same as the two mappings the Raphnet adapter offers (the two sensitivity settings the Raphnet adapter offers). You can select a mapping by holding a certain button on the controller while plugging in the adapter. Here's a list of the mappings and the corresponding button to be pressed:

OoT VC - D-up
MM VC - D-down
OoT GameCube (maybe handy for people that still play MQ?) - D-left
Universal mapping - D-right
Universal mapping that is more sensitive - L

I'm 100% sure the issue Vulpone mentions isn't the case. If it was the case it would also have to happen for other buttons. I also hooked up the adapter to some measurement equipment to verify it.

Edit: I actually think I understand your post better now. As far as I know the Raphnet adapter only has two sensitivity settings, which correspond to the universal mappings I included.

The Raphnet adapter actually has 3 sensitivity settings - "low" sensitivity (d-pad left, actually a direct mapping of GC inputs to N64 inputs), "normal" sensitivity (no input on startup, the sensitivity is increased to better fit the N64 controller), and "high" sensitivity (d-pad right, more sensitive than the other 2 [iirc it's twice as sensitive as "low" sensitivity]).

In that case I included normal and high sensitivity. These pretty much work for any game. I don't know which ones you would prefer to have included ING-X? I could look if I could also include the low sensitivity one, but it might not fit, because the MM-fix takes up a lot of space.

I need better heat shrink to pack the adapter in, so it's gonna take a bit longer.

Yeah, low sensitivity is pretty useless since you can barely reach full running speed on it.

Really wanna get this ASAP  :P

Any update on this? Really looking forward to getting one, I hate the Gamecube controller and would love to have an accurate n64 adapter. (sorry if I'm being impatient :P)

I'll be selling them this coming week. Everything arrived finally. It's been taking too long lol.

GC version will be worked on in two weeks, because I have exams.

sorry if i'm beating a dead horse, but any progress on the gc version? :)

I'll probably be working on it this week. I noticed a few problems with it, like being unable to backwalk in MM when pulling stick straight down and for some reason I can't seem to get the spirit cutscene skip. This could take some time to fix, because I want to test it thoroughly.

Edit: I don't have time to finish the GC one for now. It will be finished eventually, because I prefer GC controller. I'll probably finish it in a few weeks when I have holidays.

hi i would possibly like to buy one of these adapters how much does it cost?

They are 25$ with shipping included. If you're interested in buying one you can send me a message.

Are these functional with sm64?

I don't know if SM64 has the same mapping as OoT, but I heard some good things from people that used it to play SM64 with the OoT mapping. It's a better idea to extract the SM64 mapping and make a different firmware for the adapter.

I'm going to add a programming connection to the next version of the adapter, so you can easily update to new/different firmwares. I'll look into the SM64 mapping, so people can use it if they want.

Yeah if you actually looked into sm64 mapping i'd definitely buy one as soon as you finish the next version. Are you still working on this?

Yes, I just extracted the SM64 mapping. It's a bit different from OoT. I'm waiting for new PCBs now though, because I switched some parts and thought it was a good idea to add a programming connection.

yooo any updates on this?

Waiting for new PCBs that feature a programming connector, so it can be easily updated. I think they will arrive this week.

yooo id buy one for sm64 aswell, if you dont mind making it ~

I don't mind at all.  ;) Still haven't received the PCBs though.  ???

Edit: Sorry guys, still no PCBs, as of Oct. 13.

seems to be taking awhile :(

Yes, unfortunately the PCBs have a huge delay. I've almost been waiting six weeks for them. I did contact the seller this week and they were still able to trace the package, so it doesn't seem lost. If I don't receive them tomorrow I'll just contact them again, to see if the package actually changed location in a week.

Is there any sort of patch or program for the VC to make the controls less sensitive?

I'd be interested in buying an adapter in the near future... if it's available.

So finally the PCBs have arrived. I tested one to verify if they work and they do.  ;D
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/23212729/20131107_222247.jpg)

I'll be able to start selling these starting next week. The GC version can also be ordered from now on. You can send me a PM, if you want one. Because I'm using a case and some other components the price will be a little higher than before, to cover for these and shipping rate, but it really won't be that much higher.

Also, I have not been able to test my firmware with a Hori Pad, since I don't have one. If it doesn't work correctly I'll try to fix this. You can easily update this newest version of the adapter with a programmer you can get for a few bucks from eBay.  Also, the GC version's firmware isn't final yet. I still want to add stuff like settings for more sensitive L and R triggers, like on the Gamecube version.

I'll probably make a webpage that centralizes most info about the adapter. This topic has grown quite large.

There isn't. If anyone has some guidelines (hex editing the WAD, don't even know if that is possible) of how to do this, if possible at all, I'd be very interested.

How much would one cost currently (with shipping to US)?

I did some calculations. Previous price was 25$ (which includes shipping) and the new parts add up to about 3$, so the new price is 28$ and that covers shipping for just about any country (US, Europe).

I'll post a pic once I have one fully assembled, so people will get an idea of what they are actually getting.

cool stuff. I might get the gcn one later.

SM64 N64->VC ADAPTER ~~~~~~ i still want one btw  ;D

Next week I'm soldering some adapters, because I have a deadline tomorrow. I'll make an SM64 version for you then.

Nov. 19: Been busy soldering the adapters. I still need to do the cases, the cables and the programming connectors. I'll probably be ready to ship most next week, because I can't do anything in the weekends.

I'm also improving the GC version a bit. I still need to add functionality for L and R button sensitivity + Majora's Mask still has problems when backwalking. I don't know if I have this firmware ready by next week. You can either wait until it is finished, but you can also buy a programmer (3$ on eBay I believe) and update it yourself.

Here's an example of what you will receive by the way (GameCube version):
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/23212729/20131113_224342.jpg)

I don't really understand what the GCN adapter does, is it to make the GCN stick feel more like the N64 stick?

If so, with the N64 adapter you compared data to confirm that the stick worked as equally as possible to the original, are you doing with with the Gamecube adapter too?

Yes, it's mainly to get rid of the deadzone and spread the control over all possible analog stick values. Making it feel like an N64 stick is really hard, because they are very different. What I noticed is that holding ESS on a GC stick is very hard. That's why I perform a few mods to the GC version, to make the ESS region bigger to make ESS easier.

I have no idea with what you mean with "as equally as possible to the original". If you mean like on N64 with an N64 controller, then I'd say it's impossible to compare both controllers, because of the huge differences. But as I already said I do my best with this adapter to give the GC controller a very good level of control, like you have with an N64 controller.

Oh I see so the GCN adapter is more of an improvement.

I meant that with the N64 adapter your goal was to have the N64 controller perform on VC just like it does on N64.

How much of an improvement is the GCN adapter? I know that with the adapter for the N64 you were wary not to make it easier than the original.

This is really interesting stuff :D

Hey whyieyesya, out of curiosity how would you word a rule about turbo/macros for the leaderboards so it is clear what kind of stuff is allowed/banned? I figured I'd ask you as you have a lot of knowledge about how controllers send the signal etc. so you could come up with a solid, reasonable definition.

Putting the control stick into ESS position is very easy and totally not arbitrary anymore. Angle changing can also be done fine, but it will never be as good as on N64. The N64 controller is very stiff, with the GC controller you can slip more easily and lose ESS.

That's a tough one. I mainly started this thing, because on emulator you could just use any controller with any settings you liked. I hated missing the WESS on VC and people said using an N64 controller would make it better, but still not N64 like. Then someone pointed me to this topic and I didn't really think improving the adapter could do any harm considering on emulator any settings could be used.

If I had to word a rule, I guess it would be something like this:

• Any controller can be used.
• Turbo is not allowed.
• A button may only generate input for one button.
• Analog sticks can only be mapped to analog sticks, not to buttons.
• Any sensitivity mod to the analog stick is fine, as long as a max input on the analog stick results in the actor moving at its top speed.
• A button may not generate an analog stick value.

I don't know if I'm missing something very important. I'm not a very serious speedrunner.  :P I'll clarify how I came up with these rules below. I ignore the possibility of playing on emulator here for certain reasons.

Banning controllers could scare people away. There are people that prefer N64 controller over Gamecube. This would mean they would have to run on the N64 version of OoT.


This one means that if a button is pressed the game should notice only one button being pressed. Mapping the same button to different buttons is still allowed by this, kind of like c-values on VC are mapped to both C-stick and X,Y,Z buttons on GC controller. This last remark could potentially make button mashing easier. What if you would map one button to two buttons on your controller, in that case you can mash both buttons and have a higher mash rate. I really don't know what to do with that one. A rule could be that a button can only be mapped to as many buttons as on the original (following me here?).

Being able to map buttons to the analog stick could make mashing considerably easier by spinning the control stick for instance. I'd say this should not be allowed. It deviates too much from the original.

As for the line "max input on the analog stick results in the actor moving at its top speed", imagine there's a mod that makes max input on the controller only give a value in ESS position. By doing that, a very easy and fast way of angle changing is made, there's literally no way to mess it up. That's why I think an analog stick that goes up should always generate higher values sent to the console and a fully tilted analog stick should make the actor move at its full speed.

Why I think sensitivity mods to the analog stick (basically the whole thing this topic is about) should be allowed: the sensitivity of analog sticks differ between controllers. The analog stick sensitivity also changes when the controller is getting older or often used. I have a few GameCube controllers and one of them is a lot more sensitive and I'm actually able to angle change fairly consistently with it without an adapter. I believe there are also certain Classic Controllers that allow for better angle changing. Getting controllers with these characteristics is pretty much luck, so it would be nice not having to worry about it.

Also, the N64 analog stick is very different from a GameCube adapter. Even with the Raphnet adapter, without my mods holding ESS is considerably easier with it than on a GameCube controller. The Raphnet adapter actually also does stuff to the sensitivity of the controller, it even has a few settings. If this really is an issue, playing with an N64 controller should have already been banned back then. I can see why it never really was a debate though, the community was obviously a lot smaller and less serious back then.

This one is quite obvious to me. Imagine mapping a button to a ESS analog stick value, this would give extremely easy ESS. Or having a button that generates the perfect angle for super swims in TWW. It deviates way too much from a normal controller functionality.

So yeah, this is basically my view on this whole thing. It's really hard to judge this and maybe rules should also differ per game. When I started working on this adaper I asked some people on SDA their views on whether it's OK to use an adapter to play with a different controller and the general answer was "as long as it stays within the same technical capabilities", or something like that. I think these rules suit this statement pretty good: buttons stay buttons, analog sticks stay analog sticks, analog sticks can have a different sensitivity (as long as the max input for the actor is reached when the analog stick is fully tilted).

Sorry for the long post.  :P

Are you allowed to use both the GC controller and the Classic Controller (pro) at the same time? You can do this on VC if you have a GC controller plugged in, but any input on the classic controller will cancel any analogue input on the GC controller, so you never have conflicting analogue inputs. You could still mash A and B on both controllers though LOL

I'd say it is allowed, if the system is capable of it. Obviously if it would introduce something really gamebreaking you could make categories that ban it.

I have all PCBs soldered, except for the programming connectors, because I had to order these. I accidentally made them ship these to my old address, so I can only get them this weekend. Next week I'll probably have the adapters ready.

GC firmware is also finished, just doing some testing at the moment.

mine arrived just now, havent thorougly tested it yet. to program the board im assuming i just pop the lid off and directly stick the connector into the obvious place on the pcb?

Yeah, but you need to put it on correctly. I have no idea what happens if you do it wrong. I'll post a pic how you should do it later.

So I guess I feel obligated to post impressions since I'm the first to receive the GC version (I think).

I've played with it about 6 hours now. I sorta cheated since I've screwed around with the raphnet GC->N64 adapter before, which has pretty good sensitivity. Obviously, ess is easy. Angle-changing feels really nice. Before I received it I was concerned because I'd somewhat gotten used to the other adapter and wanted it to be similar to make the transition to 100% seamless, but it feels close so I probably won't worry about that. General movement feels weird, but I can get used to it. The finer angles I'm used to just don't work (which is to be expected), but I'm getting used to it and I think I will prefer this in the end because you have more control over smaller adjustments; pretty much the same deal with first-person control too. Also, it might just be me, but I think quickspinning is a little harder with the adapter (lol).

All that being said I was getting used to it pretty quick (though I did cheat), and PB'd in MST during that period. I don't think the adapter has anything to do with enabling the PB, but the confidence that you will never screw up wess is pretty nice. Although I think that unless you want the adapter for something specific like angle-changing (which I do), the main benefit of using it will be overall nicer-feeling controls, not the easier ess.

I have finished a few adapters and will finish the rest tomorrow. After that I'll contact everyone for payment and shipping etc. I'll test the adapters over the weekend and ship them early next week.

I have made an N64 firmware that has OoT, MM, Master Quest and Super Mario 64 mappings + 2 general mappings (with these it's like the Raphnet adapter), so that's what people will get. The GC version has mappings for OoT, MM and Master Quest.

sweet

Sounds good! Can't wait to try this out!

I should have contacted everyone that messaged me they want to buy an adapter.

I'm gonna make a webpage with info (selecting mappings, updating it, etc.) about the adapters later. I'll also post firmware updates on there.

I'm out of microcontrollers and cases at the moment, but they should arrive soon. So if you decide to place an order right now, you'll have to wait a bit again.  :P

ok i replied

Hopefully people will start receiving these new adapters soon. I haven't explained how to select the mappings yet.

For the N64 version, hold the corresponding button when plugging in the adapter (in a Wii that's on obviously) to get the corresponding mapping:
D-UP: OoT VC
D-Down: MM VC
D-Right: OoT and MM GC
D-Left: SM64 VC

For the GC version:
D-UP: OoT VC
D-Down: MM VC
D-Right: OoT and MM GC

There's also settings for the triggers for the GC version, by holding L and a corresponding button:
L + D-UP: No modification at all, just one on one conversion.
L + D-Right: VC like triggers in OoT and MM GC
L + D-Down: OoT and MM GC like triggers in VC

I can't speak for all of the mappings, but for OoT anyway, this is really amazing. I've always been extremely picky about the joystick and I cannot even tell the difference. Really great work on this whyieyesya!

That's really good to hear! Thanks!

I may have opened up a can of worms by doing this, but I decided to finally bring these adapters up formally at SDA. In the past, I kind of beat around the bush a bit, and since I'm having serious thoughts about running MM again, I felt like I should bring it up again and be as honest, clear, and direct as possible about what these adapters really do and what possible advantages they might have. The topic is here (https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/need_a_ruling_on_this_controller_adapter_for_majoras_mask.html). I know a lot of people here don't care about SDA anymore, but I'd appreciate it if you guys took the time to weigh in, since ZSR obviously allows the adapter and the adapter was primarily made for the N64 zeldas.

I actually think this is pretty interesting. I'd hate it if my adapters would ruin the fun of people that don't use an adapter (maybe that's also one of the reasons I made a GC version).

Quote from the thread:
This is of course a tough one. There's only a handful of people that can actually somewhat consistently angle change on VC with a GC controller.

wonderful!!!

A+++++

u my nigga

This shouldn't affect most of you anyway, since most people in the Zelda/Mario communities don't really care much about SDA anymore anyway. So don't yell at me for this; you guys can still use the adapter regardless of what SDA says.

I'm glad you posted that SDA thread and it seems cool that people are in agreement about these adapters being zsr/sda legal.

Just wondering, what is your take on the adapters? You're basically modifying data supposed to be sent to your console. Why are you cool (I believe that's the case) with them?

The N64 version might be a little easier to defend, because you already have to multiply the analog stick's values, because a GC analog stick has a higher reach.

I'd say the N64 adapter can be defended by the fact that we know how the games are supposed to feel on N64 and the adapter doesn't do anything else than make it feel like on N64. The GC version is then simply allowed imo, because the N64 version is allowed and it doesn't have any advantages over the N64 version.

Then again, how would an adapter like this, be looked at, if there's only one version of the game, so no reference as to how the control stick could/should feel?

The way I see it, third party controllers are already allowed as long as they don't add new features, like turbo buttons. Third party analog sticks are rarely identical to the originals. This sets a pretty good precedent for allowing third party adapters as long as they abide by the same restriction of not adding new features.

There were some problems with the GC to GC adapters previously (no calibration, player would not run at full speed). Because of those problems and limited time on my side, I stopped selling the GC to GC version until I fixed those. I'm pretty sure now, all these issues are resolved (it also has an SM64 mapping now), so I have resumed selling the GC to GC version again. I had some people that were interested in this version and I think I messaged all of them. In case I forgot to send anyone a message, please send me a message. If you have one of the older GC versions, I have a guide how to update your adapter, so just ask me for it. You also need an ISP programmer, but you can get those for 3$ from eBay.

At the moment I'm going to try to improve the MM mapping. It's quite good, but there are some small problems with it. Once I'm done with that, this means both the N64 as well as the GC version will get an update.

I'm also working on a Classic Controller version. This one will also just plug into the Gamecube port. I have a working version at the moment, but I want to try to improve MM first.

Edit: here are updated instructions for the latest GC firmware:
Hold the corresponding button when plugging in the adapter (in a Wii that's on obviously) to get the corresponding mapping:

For the GC version:
D-UP: OoT VC
D-Down: MM VC
D-Right: OoT and MM GC
D-Left: SM64 (this one is newly added)

There's also settings for the triggers for the GC version, by holding L and a corresponding button:
L + D-UP: No modification at all, just one on one conversion.
L + D-Right: VC like triggers in OoT and MM GC
L + D-Down: OoT and MM GC like triggers in VC

Do we need to select which setting to use every time we plug in the adapter? Or will it "remember" the last chosen profile?

It remembers.  :)

awesome ^_^ really looking forward to it :D
as far as I understood you sell them again...? can I PM you about that again? :D

i also ordered one last week.
should arrive within the next two days.

let's see if it's improved since early 2013 :^]

I do sell them again, but I haven't improved MM yet. Some people don't really care about MM, so then I might as well sell it.

I'm making some progress on MM. I also tried MM on the N64 and some of the problems of which I thought were caused by my adapter, also exist on N64. For instance, if you look with around with C-up and you want to move straight left or right, the camera has the tendency to also move up. That seems to be because of a very small deadzone MM has (even though ESS deadzone is bigger than OoT). This is only during C-up, not during aiming with bow or hookshot. Also, turning 90 degrees seems harder with MM than OoT (also on N64). Of course I could add a small deadzone, but the goal is to keep the controls as similar as possible.

we don't line up with c-up thaat often so it shouldn't really matter.
and for the turning we'd still have shieldturning in case you don't want to add a deadzone there ^^

anyway - I really look forward to it :D

Lining up with c-up is probably still a lot better than it is now.

I'm trying shield turning right now on N64. It seems that turning 90 degrees is really hard. I line up with a wall, then I do the shield turn and I then walk straight with my camera locked. Sometimes Link won't stick to the wall. This could mean two things: the shield turn isn't exactly 90 degrees or I'm not walking completely straight. The deadzone is really small when walking forward (with camera locked) or backwards, so that could explain the not walking straight.

Maybe I'm doing the shield turn wrong. Right now I hold shield, I then pull my analog stick left or right and quickly release R and press it again.

Now that I'm comparing N64 with VC I think my N64 to GC adapter is really accurate. Are there people that run MM on N64? Because I wonder if they have the same problems. I can only conclude right now that the N64 controls also have some flaws and I'm not sure how it would affect speedrunning. For OoT it would be unacceptable for a lot of setups.

well, we need 90° turns for some setups :/ (just realized for stonetower or woodfall for example)

I can ask DennisBalow is this problem also exists on N64... but there's no runner on N64, iirc (Dennis just plays the game casually)
But I remember that things like backwalking were really hard / stupid to do on N64 myself...

I don't know if it would be allowed to fix it a little...? these are no inputs made by the controller / adapter made afterall (we still have to do all the inputs ourselves)

Is that during hovers? Because those might still work very well.

The more input the better.  :) Allthough as I said, the problem also occurs on N64 for me. Just wondering if it is a big problem during speedruns.

My ultimate goal is to make the controls just like on N64. With the GC adapter I don't really mind adding some deadzone/maybe fixing it in a different way. MM wasn't meant to be played with a GC controller anyways, so I might as well modify the controls to make it better playable.

aaah okay, I'm still gonna ask him tho.
uhm, no the turns are on the ground in order to get the right angle for longjumps / bk skips :/

but it'd be really awesome if you could fix it a little then :D

I'll look into it.

I'm just really curious how runners on N64 cope with it. I hope I'm doing something wrong. :P

the last runner on N64 was ingx...?
his run didn't use any ground / shieldturns, iirc...
but that was from 2012 anyway :/

The things you describe are all normal on n64. Backwalking/walking straight forward and turning 90/180 are difficult, but not impossible to get used to so I think you should make it as close to n64 as possible and not add a deadzone, but that is just my opinion

losing runs to not being able to move straight forward is a little sad... especially when being on low health it has to be fun.
so I'll buy it and then decide wether to use it or not x)

The biggest problem is that, considering it is already hard on N64, that if my mapping is only slightly off, it may be harder than on N64. The mapping for MM is a lot more complicated than the other games.

What I think I will do is experiment with deadzone. If that works good, I'll make it so you can enable and disable it. The added deadzone actually also sucks, because that will make ESS harder again.

making ESS harder is not a problem if we can switch, lol.
it's basically about the aiming. but if we can switch the settings for ESS and non ESS, it would be perfect :D

Yes, N64 MM has some serious issues with the control stick. The problem is most egregious if you have an old, worn-out N64 stick - if you have a newer stick, it's not as bad. You basically have a choice between messed up directions (N64) and bad ESS/aiming (VC). It kind of sucks.

Thanks for the input. This kind of sucks. If MM had ESS like OoT then it wouldn't really be a problem to add extra deadzone. I still have to try adding extra deadzone. Maybe you only need a tiny bit of extra deadzone, to make turning and walking straight better. 

Another option I'm thinking about is making the deadzone only bigger for positions where you have the stick fully tilted (if you press forward, then there's a bigger deadzone to left and right for instance). That should fix the walking straight issue and it should also fix shield turning. Only thing it wouldn't fix is ESS turning.  :-[

Making it possible to toggle the deadzone during gameplay would be a solution, but I think that might be a bit unfair.

I'm pretty busy at the moment. I'm gonna try my best to work on this and hopefully finish this stuff for good.  :P

I don't really like the idea of "fixing" the n64 controls on VC so that walking straight forward is easier. It seems like it's creating an artificial control mapping that doesn't correspond to anything actually existent - kind of like if you were to enlarge the ESS range to be bigger than on N64.

if the n64 deadzone is like putting it to 0% on PJ64, I'd be fine with it... tested it a little recently and like it much better... back walking and such is not as much of a problem as I thought it would be

Yeah I agree on that. If I were to do it, I'd most likely do it for the GC adapter.
I am going to compare this. Did you try it with an N64 or GC controller?

GC pad only, I don't have a N64 to USB adapter.
I noticed some slight difference when it comes to movement, but it's not a big deal as long as you're not on low health

Start of next week I'm done with all my exams. Then I'll have time to pick things up again (test MM on emu, I need to install Windows for that). I'll then also finish all the adapters for people that asked for one. Sorry for the delay.

Great, looking forward to it.  And good luck with exams!

got my gc to n64 adapter now and oh my god, this is godlike for oot.
I know that I'll have to get used to stuff like turning by 90° again and such, but for the aiming and the angle change during ESS, it's worth it x)

reeeally looking forward to it :D

Can you try MM with it? My GC to GC adapter handles OoT differently, so it probably feels a bit different from N64 with GC to N64 adapter. I made the ESS region bigger and I also give it a tiny bit more deadzone, because I thought it was pretty sensitive. Unfortunately these tricks are more complicated for MM, because aiming deadzone and ESS deadzone are different, so if I make ESS region bigger, I'll screw up the aiming and vice versa. :p

I'm really close to finishing the adapters for the people that wanted one. I have some deadlines for school projects that turned out to be more work than I thought. Anyways, I'll have the adapters finished within a few days. After that I'm also going to work on MM again.

I'd really like to test that for MM, but I don't have a MM cart :/

Thief I would send you one if you promise to send it back signed when you're done with it. ~Kappa.

Looking forward to starting with the adapter whyeye!

I'll test it on emulator then.

Thiefbug, what value do you use for the analog stick range on emulator? I assume you use Project64 with the N-Rage input plugin? Otherwise, that setting may not make any sense to you. :P

I use the n-rage plugin.
backwalking is a little tricky if the deadzone is lower than 5%, but you can get used to the rest within minutes.
except for keeping ess position, lol.
btw, checked on oot - can't backwalk straight with 0% deadzone, which is just as it is on VC in there.
to get the same feeling on emu like I do on n64 with the pad, I need a deadzone of 2%

on 2% it's still not possible to backwalk straight in MM, so basically same issues (okay, ESS is a little easier, lol)

oh uhm, my stick range is set to 100 x)

I think if you calibrate your joystick in windows it might also function for 0% deadzone. It does for me at least.

I'm giving the improved mapping I got a few weeks back a try now with the gc to gc adapter. Right now I multiply the x and y values of the joystick by 0.75, because the joystick of a GC controller has a higher range than that from an N64 controller (about 100 vs 75, I think). With the N64 version I can just read straight from the table.

Aiming is really good. Backwalking works fine, but you don't have a lot of margin. ESS is not hard, but angle changing is imo, but I haven't practiced it at all and I'm used to OoT anyways. Turning straight seems also hard, but that's also the case on N64.

I'm having a Zelda marathon with a friend starting tomorrow. Then I'll also play MM so I can test it more.

so you're using a range of 75%?
0% deadzone and 100% range felt a little too sensitive, imo.

but if I understood that correctly, you're setting the deadzone to 0 and then multiplay the current x and y value by 0.75
sounds pretty good to me, if thats the case

Yeah it should be 75%. Allthough I don't think it is completely accurate to console, because it feels a little different. It is close though.

Yes, I have a mapping table for the N64 to GC adapter to give an N64 controller controls like on N64. But if you use that table directly with the GC controller, then you get that the control stick is very sensitive, because the range of a GC joystick is bigger. So I decrease the range by multiplying it with 0.75. I'm pretty sure the Raphnet GC to N64 adapter does this as well.

that sounds amazing :D
can't wait to get my hands on it ^_^

Ok, I tested the improved GC to GC adapter during the marathon. It feels pretty good, aiming is amazing. ESS is a bit hard, but that is probably mostly because the region for it a lot smaller than for OoT and it's also harder to keep your joystick in a fixed position on a GC controller. Backwalking wasn't a problem, it worked really well.

I played through MM and did an old any% route (pretty much the one Runnerguy used at AGDQ). In Snowhead I didn't need the scarecrow song, I could easily aim for the torch. The BK skip for Great Bay Temple was one of the tricks I noticed I had some trouble with. I was playing on the US version and Link doesn't turn around after equiping Zora mask, so I had to do that myself. Unfortunately turning straight is quite hard. I had trouble with that trick anyways, because of the big number of succesive inputs and the small time frame, so I was forced to pause buffer it partly. I think I'll give this trick another try soon. Maybe a shield turn will be enough to do it consistently. I don't think turning completely straight is required.

So yeah, basically the control problems for the original N64 version are back: turning straight is hard. I guess this is a good time for you to give it a try, Thiefbug, so we can see how the increased difficulty of turning affects speedrunning. I'm out of some parts at the moment unfortunately, so it will take some time before I can get you one. In the meantime I'll also give all my GC controllers a try with it, to see if backwalking and other things are correct.

is the GC to GC adapter works on PJ64?

I'll gladly give it a try :D
if you want, you can send me a PM with your paypal email and the price and I'll send the money to you and my adress afterwards.

Can't wait ^_^

Unfortunately I don't have all parts as I already said. I hope I get them quickly. Maybe I can sacrifice one of my own adapters. I'll PM you when I have something to sell.

It's an adapter you put between your Wii and your controller (either N64 or GC controller) to get rid of deadzone in some of the more popular VC games.

I'm at ESA the next two weeks anyways, so no need to hurry.
it's done when it's done ^^

Finally, with a GameCube disc on the Wii, I can do the shooting gallery in a reasonable amount of time in 100% runs!  (I beat the adult version in OoT twice in about 5 minutes, versus taking something like 90 minutes without the control stick corrections.)

Thanks, whyieyesya!!

(By the way, rumble does not work for me with the adapter.  No big deal at all, but just curious is there a configuration that would allow it to still work.)

Just curious, are you using the correct mapping? There is a special mapping for the GC Zeldas. I don't think a lot of people are aware of that/care about it.

I don't do anything with rumble. I forgot the GC versions have it. Actually I wanted to use the rumble feature, so you would be able to notice that the mapping has changed by activating it for a few seconds. Unfortunately some adapters would stop working as soon as rumble started. Maybe that's because too much power is asked from the Wii (probably not) or the rumble interferes with the adapter in some way. It would have been nice to have, but I decided not to bother anymore. Now that you remind me of the GC Zeldas having rumble I might have another look at it some day, but more for the heck of it.

I believe I have the correct mapping.  First I used D-Right, which worked well except there was no response to L and R.  Then I used L + D-Up, and with that all the buttons/sticks worked.  Rumble did not work in either case.  I'd be curious if you figure out what happened with it, but, yeah, definitely not a big deal.

You did it correctly. If I ever fix the rumble function it would require a firmware update.

I am gone for about two weeks. After that I can take orders again (I have enough parts). Classic Controller to GC is also an option now.

Thiefbug, when I am back, then maybe I can get you a GC to GC converter to test MM?

sure thing :D

I look forward to having this adapter again whyieyesya!

is it possible to order one?

I think he didn't return yet...?

idk lol, he said he'd be gone for two weeks on August 10th. it's now October tho. don't want to sound pushy, just wondering if it's still an option otherwise I'd have to contact raphael or something.

I am very busy atm and I want to handle the orders chronologically. I contacted some already that I am working on them. I hope I can finish this week.

Thiefbug, I was working on one for you as well. I figured I would contact you when finished.

yay, thanks again ^^

Never mind, for some reason I can not post messages from certain browsers. I should have contacted everyone.

I had this problem too...did someone change any settings for the forums? (I fixed it by just clearing cookies/cache but we'll see how long it lasts Kappa)

tested it for a few hours now...
oh my god, it's amazing.
I can angle change pretty well, aiming is godlike now and the difference isn't too bad (backwalking, turning by 90 degree etc works just fine).
thanks so much ^_^

Same here. Received mine yesterday morning. I have an N64 with japanese Mario and have a Wad on the Wii, and I've played on Emulator for a long time. Simply perfect. The aiming is precise and you can't tell the difference at all. I don't have N64 OoT but the Wii VC Version is now as good as the emulator one imho.

Very great. Thank you so much, whyieyesya!

the adapter is awesome ^^ but I noticed a few minor flaws...
sometimes I plug it in and my inputs are not accepted... thats a little unfortunate cause I switch in runs.
when holding down-right in a certain position, link does not run at full speed for some reason :/
oh and he walks backleft slightly when backwalking...
other than that it really is amazing :D
but I guess the last thing is a n64 problem rather xP

Do you plug in the adapter without the controller connected when this happens?

I noticed this with one controller, just before I sent it to you. I tested it with more than five controllers this summer and did not notice it. Then I tested it with a controller that I have at my student's dorm and I noticed it as well. I figured I would just send it, because the chance it would happen with your controller seemed low. Also, I prefer to test things very thoroughly before I send them out. I guess it can be fixed by making the control stick more sensitive, but that would make the ESS region smaller.. So you see the dilemma I faced with this.

This also happens very easily with an N64 controller. It kind of depends on controller as well. Do you have the idea it happens when it is not supposed to happen, so when you hold your control stick as straight down as possible? For me most of the time I backwalk straight, but it really does not take much to have a slightly messed up backwalk.

I think I will take a look at some more advanced stuff. Such as only increasing the deadzone when the control stick is fully tilted. That should make the backwalking a lot better as well as shield turning. Perhaps I can make the ESS region a bit bigger, allthough that will also mess with aiming a bit, so that restricts how big I can make it, if feasible at all. I only do this for the GC version by the way.

okay, I tested a little.
I'm getting the mistake with the adapter not taking inputs and me having to replug more often...

the backwalking thing is a controller issue - works on a brandnew one to backwalk straight.

about the slowdown when walking down-right - I also get that with a brand-new controller :/

Necro hype!

I just received an N64-GC adapter from Why, and testing it on legit GC MQ, it feels incredible.
The control stick feels 1:1 to N64, as Runnerguy has stated. I'm very picky about my ESS since I love to HESS and unbuffered angle change, and it feels exactly like good old console :)

Either the adapter or MQ, however, feel like they add maybe a frame of input lag. I've done 2 tests for this.
1) Side-by-side N64 and MQ+adapter. I was able to switch the same controller between the systems and unbuffered DoT Skip with 100% consistency on both systems, back-to-back.
2) Melee, to see if I can detect more minute lag. Fox's Nair seems to come out on the same frame as a GC controller, maybe 1 frame later. So there might be slight input lag.

Overall: Even for someone picky about lag (like me), this adapter is perfectly fine. The stick feels 1:1 to N64 on MQ, haven't tried other mappings. Build quality is not a problem. C buttons are mapped entirely to C-Stick, so Melee jumping does not play like 64. Control stick range outside of Zelda is pitiful on every setting. Do not use as a general-use adapter.

Recommendation? If you're playing OoT or MM, BUY BUY BUY. If not, don't bother, get a Raphnet.

With L and R you can select analog stick mappings comparable to the Raphnet adapter (just a linear conversion). R option is more sensitive.

I might have an idea how to add reprogrammability of button mapping. I might add it into the firmware. The button mapping needs to be programmed with a programmer, but if you can select from a few profiles that should be an improvement regardless.

Edit: hrmm, or make a Wii app that enables it. Not sure if that would be possible.. I would need to see if I can somehow send a signature to the adapter, so it goes into reprogramming mode.

Gave devkitpro a try.  I am able to send custom commands over the controller ports. My plan is to try to make a GC homebrew where you can select your button mapping and then send it to the adapter. Should be a useful update. Will take a while.

Could anyone hook up summit1g (https://twitter.com/summit1g/with_replies) with one of these adapters?

All you gotta do is send me a pm...

Hey, thanks for your reply! Unfortunately I can't send you a PM as the forum is broken and I don't get a verification code.

I know he tried to get in contact with you a while ago, assumingly via your gmail address?

He sent me a message on Youtube, which I responded to, but got no response back yet. So I am not really sure why I keep getting messages from other people about it. :P

If he just adds @gmail.com behind my Youtube nickname, he would also be able to send me an email. ;)

Sigh, he's such a doofus.

Afaik he's already ordered a Raphnet adapter by now. Did you ever release your code?

Nope and I will not either.

I can give the binaries though.

So did you guys get in contact? Apparently he didn't get your message on YouTube.

He's written an e-mail as well and didn't hear back either.

 ???

I did not receive an email. That is weird.

He sent me a message on Twitch which I responded to. Maybe it ended up in his spam?

I would contact him through his chat if it was not so busy. He will never notice.

I just let him know through chat, he'll check his twitch messages.

Let's make this work ;D

Since this forum is so broken, I decided to make a webpage (http://danielkraak.com/) with all info about the adapter.