100% definition

[Paraxade]

Demise is always last so you aren't going to fight him either way. That means there's only three fights you would need to avoid, and I think Horde has a relatively small chance of coming up early anyway (I never had it come up when I was trying to get the hylian shield on my Hero playthrough).

[Tamis]

I didn't know for demise, that's 8 fights out of 11, that's 1 in 165, but I guess it can never be perfect so the runner would seek optimum time over optimum runs, looking for the perfect bosses (ie avoiding the three slowest) sounds suicidal, and then you need a goddamn good time, so anyways let's forget about that matter it's rather pointless :p

I had horde rather early though, I think 6th fight, I even died on it (horde with one heart ? Challenge accepted... reach third barrier, oh shit a bomb blew up your face) :p I think the random in it is fine, you have the same chances of getting any boss. Good luck for a 100% runner, boss rush in hero mode is hard as shit (well to me.. due to lame controls, link swinging sword when you want to shield bash, and whatnot :/ )

edit : actually you can get demise first, if you're pro at it you can get a pretty decent time (someone got a 30s strat on the time trial thread), it would be good to start with too :p

[EverAlert]

How sure are we that the boss battles are actually fully randomised? Aside from some ghirahim/imprisoned oddities I've never had boss battles go out of order in boss rush. For me the repeat bosses always appear in the same spots relative to other bosses but sometimes it'll for example give me the last ghirahim first, or all 3 imprisoneds in a row, or something like that. But I will always get a ghirahim first, then scaldera, etc, and always in the right spots assuming they didn't clump. Derp post above proves they are randomised. But I'm assuming the randomiser at least heavily favours the natural order.

I dunno I probably haven't played as many full rushes as you guys but it didn't look all that random in my experience.

Anyway it's kinda dumb that we'd have to fight all the bosses again for Hylian Shield, I'm gonna actually check to make sure it's not sellable. (Edit: It's not.)

[Matt23488]

Hmm, I usually get one of the Ghirahim's first as well. I've done boss rush quite a bit on a non-hero mode file, and it seems more pseudo-randomized like EA said before he edited his post. Generally Koloktos or Tentalus are the last boss for me, and it seemed to go in an order related to difficulty. But every now and again it will be seemingly completely random. Perhaps some research should be done on this.

[Tamis]

Well someone should try starting (on a hero mode) with boss X and see what bosses are after it, then repeat and see if it's pseudo random.

I often had tentalus in my first bosses (and I always start with ghirahim 1), also imprisoned 3. Never had koloktos though.. So yeah, it must be pseudo random...

[EverAlert]

Maybe they use a different randomiser for Hero and Normal modes?
I will laugh though if the seed is simply the first boss you pick. Painfully simple method of randomising.

[Matt23488]

I don't think the seed is ENTIRELY the first boss you pick, because I usually pick Imprisoned 3 as the first fight, since it's really the only one that will cause me to fail, if I'm wrong when I choose to wait for Groose instead of skydiving for phase 2. However, I do think it may have some effect on which bosses come after.

[ArthurDent]

To make thing very simple we can say that 100% is everything of upgrades and tasks. In some game, maybe this one, it may be inconveniently long and boring. So it may be hard to make fully  completion of some games suitable in a speed run format. People who think a clearly defined draft for 100% run sounds boring doesn't need to do such a run, nor watch such a run of considerable longevity.

[fury]

Noob here, so please forgive if I hit any nerves, just figured I'd throw in a few cents into the fairy fountain

I say that since the time saved between NG+ over Normal is so minimal when considering that this will probably end up being a 5-7 hour run, we should just not have normal and NG+ categories, similar to how no one gives a damn about MQ any%

So, this is about where I think things should be at...

• Timing starts as soon as you gain control of Link, to accommodate the possibility that Normal somehow ends up being the faster game.
• Hero Mode starts off with 0 bugs / treasures (easy to set up)
• All dowsing targets must be enabled
• At least one of each bug/treasure must be obtained
• All Goddess Chests must be opened
• All items that can't be sold at the item check (not counting potions) must be obtained
• Every item that must be obtained is upgraded to their maximum power
• Must finish the game with 20 Heart containers?
• The largest wallet (9900 rupees) must be obtained

I agree with 0 bugs/treasures. Kind of a cheap shortcut to start a "100%" already having enough treasures from the previous save to upgrade everything. Although running through an area specifically to grind them out is boring, I think it might be kind of neat to see if & how collecting them can be integrated into the main run itself (e.g. grabbing a few tumbleweeds while running through the desert to do the things there). Fastest hero time without having to collect treasures would be significantly shorter and not quite representative of the time in which a 100% run could be done (who knows how much time was spent grinding treasures before saving to hero mode?). If anything, starting hero mode with enough treasures would be another category, since it could be way shorter.

Also concur with not requiring the buyable shields/ammo upgrades. I never considered Medigoron's Sword as part of 100% in OoT when Biggoron's Sword is superior, so I think the only shield upgrade needed is to the Hylian shield. I don't see why you should waste treasures on upgrading inferior shields or ammo capacity. Those things are only for people like me who aren't pro at the game and keep missing the target and breaking their shield. Like potions.

Something I just thought of for the Hylian shield boss battle - if your pouch is full it gets sent to item check. Does "having" it mean that you have it ON you, or is leaving it in item check fine? Probably a negligible difference since you go back to the item check frequently anyway (to talk to your darling ).

The only thing I don't agree with in this list: Dowsing targets are of dubious value. Sometimes the game doesn't even give you all of them (I never got the one for the gratitude crystals, don't know why, but had to find them myself).

[UchihaSasuke]

0 bugs/treasures is a bad move since 100% in hero mode is already a new game+ type of save.

if you want to do 100% and start with 0 bugs/treasures, do it in normal mode.

[Tamis]

0 bugs/treasures is a bad move since 100% in hero mode is already a new game+ type of save.

if you want to do 100% and start with 0 bugs/treasures, do it in normal mode.

The only advantage of a hero mode with no bugs or treasures is the cutscene skipping and the quicker skyward strike... The cutscene skipping is mostly why the game is being speed ran in hero mode I guess, so that only leaves a minor difference.

[TimpZ]

I dunno why you're talking about hero mode... That would be a completely different category wouldn't it? Fresh file: 0% -> 100%. Hero mode: Exploit it as much as possible and go from X% -> 100%. Possible separate category would be Hero mode low% -> 100%. This would also accomodate for the "control of link" timing thing which I don't like for some reason.

Collecting one of each for the "collection" screen unlocks a picture and some information. Kind of like scanning in metroid prime if you ask me, so I think that would be a requirement. Saying "they're just icons" is like saying additional bottles or stone of agony in OoT are redundant because they don't add to gameplay (a new bottle doesn't add anything other than an additional slot, just like the pouches and SoA require hardware modification or isn't available on all versions) and they're "just icons".

Cubes... Nintendo made it a challenge to find them and that should be motivation enough for 100%. At the very least, the routes for activating them should be interesting enough to watch (which is what we're going after?). But opening all the chests would just be pointless and tedious and as an analogy, after collecting 100 skulltulas you're not required to collect rupees from the father, right? And the icons are just that: just icons on the map screen! Map screen =/= inventory.

I think unlocking all the save points should be a requirement because you gain the ability to warp to different zones, sort of how Link gains abilities from the wolf in TP if you ask me.

Gaining 4 adventure pouches should also be a requirement simply because of the menu system. But when it comes to bomb upgrades and stuff... I'm like Ani here. One fully upgraded of all or none at all, but I slightly favour the first one just because it seems right (for historical reasons :p). But only hylian shield because it's "the best".

Medals are like potions only that you can use them whenever you like for no additional cost. But Lon Lon Milk in MM isn't part of 100% is it? So I vote no.




So here's a defining moment: All icons which would mean you have to do everything possible about any icons in the inventory screen including the map screen which would mean all dungeon maps, chests etc in the game. Or ignore the map screen since they're on different buttons which means skipping maps and chests (including stone chests). HOWEVER; warps is an intrinsic unavoidable feature of the game and therefore warps should still be required even if you ignore the map screen.

Lets say we choose "only all icons in the inventory". Then we have to define if only static icons or are you required to have all of the icons in your inventory at some point. Technically that would require 0-99 or 999 or however many things you can collect, including different colours (green for full) but I guess we can ignore that. Either way, is it agreed upon that if all, then only the maximum/best would be required?


Someone needs to put the hammer down on some of these things and start defining...

[Roadagain]

But TimpZ, there is difference between Skulltulas (On which note, I believe it was mentioned to not compare to other games because dtuff) and the Goddess Chests. Outside the map, if you don't have them all, the game will tell you so, IIRC, via your inventory.

[TheOthin]

But TimpZ, there is difference between Skulltulas (On which note, I believe it was mentioned to not compare to other games because dtuff) and the Goddess Chests. Outside the map, if you don't have them all, the game will tell you so, IIRC, via your inventory.

Indeed. As mentioned earlier, checking the Goddess Cube Dowsing option only gives the completion message after not only activating the chests, but opening them.

[TimpZ]

I was not aware of that (I havn't actually completed the game yet). But apparently it's a dowsing target you can obtain and if we're going to obtain all those + clearing them then I don't really see why not collecting all of them  instead of only the interesting ones wouldn't be part of 100%. It is 100% for a reason...

But we have to compare with something. Otherwise it'd be like describing quantum mechanics without classical physics models. I.e. almost impossible...