100% definition

[aleckermit]

Then I disagree with all bird statues, slows the game down for no gain whatsoever. They don't add to Link's inventory. ITEMS CLOUDMAX, WE'RE COLLECTING ALL ITEMS xP.

[CloudMax]

Then I disagree with all bird statues, slows the game down for no gain whatsoever. They don't add to Link's inventory.

They don't add to links inventory, but it is something you unlock and can be used permanently.
It is like saying that warp songs in other games are useless. You could argue that this isn't the case since there is so many bird statues, but then again, how many there is doesn't matter. And what we personally think just slow down the game or what we fell does not matter, that is what you said to me earlier even.

This discussion is getting confusing..

[aleckermit]

The statues work just like in MM. If we decide on something different here, then we disagree with the MM 100% definition. Warp songs were on teh quest status screen and had fillable spots, statues are overworld items and the maps in MM and SS don't leave a statue spot for you to fill.

[Tamis]

I think the Goddess Cubes are kind of dumb. It seems pointless to hit a cube that you're not even going to get treasure from anyways (though some unnecessary cubes might come in handy for buying expensive things from Beedle). It would be like spawning a treasure chest in OoT, and then not opening it. It just seems like a waste of time.

Well, what about golden skulltulas in OoT then ?

[CloudMax]

Well, what about golden skulltulas in OoT then ?

Like we said earlier, old definitions are broken.
There was apparently someone else who made up definitions after how he wanted them to be back then.
Skulltulas are questionable, and no one has a good answer for why it is required, except that the person who made the definition said that it should be like that.

[aleckermit]

GS's are required in OoT because they take up a space on the quest status screen alongside teh songs, medallions, etc.

[EverAlert]

This thread exploded. :/

@ metroid comparison -- the metroid games themselves tell you what 100% is. I don't think it's reasonable to be like "we should get all ammo upgrades here because we have to in metroid" since they work differently and the games themselves treat them with different levels of importance. IMO if we're getting ANY of the useless resellable shit then we should get all of it, but that is clearly stupid.

@ goddess cubes -- small note. the game actually does tell you on the pause menu how many there are left. view info for the cube dowser. I'm not sure if it also counts the chests though (they can be dowsed for too). Make of that what you will but they DO appear on the pause menu in some fashion.

@ dowsing options -- I would say get them. It's kinda dumb but there is a clear justification for it (they appear in your inventory).

@ maps/statues -- I would say go with the standard here. They are not all immediately viewable in your inventory at any point in the game (you have to be in the area). It kinda feels wrong not to get them since they're an important aspect of the game but at the same time I have a hard time justifying getting them. So I dunno, whatever the standard is imo.

[Paraxade]

Not requiring GSes in OoT would be dumb.

anyway - I don't know anything about the MM definition, but I know in TP portals are not part of the 100% definition, and I don't see how it's really any different from SS bird statues. the goddess cubes thing seems to be the main thing everyone is split on... I'd much rather see at the very least the cubes being required, and I think theres a point to be made for opening the chests since they appear on the map screen, but that same logic would require all bird statues, so eh.

and yeah - one of each medal makes little sense to me. if we're considering medals part of the 100% definition then we need to get all of them. if we aren't, we get none of them. though it seems to be generally agreed we should get the two life medals. I wanna say you have to equip them too because it doesnt feel like 100% without 20 hearts but it doesn't make too much sense objectively

i'd be a little annoyed with dowsing targets mainly because the rupee target is ridiculously out of the way and does basically nothing for you, while the rest are a relatively small deal because they're all right there, so they mean basically nothing to the run.

edit: I had no idea the game tells you how many cubes are left, huh. that seems to make a more solid case for requiring all cubes.

[AniMeowzerz]

Goddess cubes and chests are the same as sea charts and underwater chests in the WW.

I agree with this, and I think it should apply to SS moreso than TWW (I don't agree with not getting all treasure charts since they're tracked in the menu)

I disagree with only getting 1 of each medal though, just because it makes sense to me to have all 20 hearts on display and you'd need both of the Life Medals, so why would you require both life metals but not the duplicates of the other medals, even if you aren't going to use them? I feel this way about the bottles too, even if we don't use them we're grabbing every duplicate of THAT item, so then why aren't we just collecting 1 bottle?

Goddess cubes are confusing to me, since it doesn't make sense to hit a cube and activate a chest that is going to sit there on the map and do nothing with it. So if we're on the ruling of having to collect all the cubes, then I'd also feel that opening all the chests would be required as well, as dumb as that is. I feel the same way about the dungeon maps too, since dungeon maps show which chests you haven't opened I'd feel it necessary to open those chests as well.

I actually agree with getting all the dowsing targets just so it would fill the slot, even if we don't ever use it..

I think upgrading items is really stupid, personally. I think if we have to include it, that it should just be used for items like the bug net, beetle, etc. B-button items.
Disagree with buying the satchel/quiver/bag for upgrading, that honestly feels to me exactly like buying all the shields to upgrade them, or buying options just to upgrade each one to the highest status, it's just stupid. But in the same sense they're linked to your B-button items so it seems weird that we wouldn't upgrade the ammo count as well as the item itself... :/ I just think upgrading is dumb.

Then there's Treasures and bugs, which I don't think has been asked about. It makes sense to me to collect at least 1 of each bug/treasure to fill that slot on your status screen. But hero mode carries that data over from normal mode, so most likely all of these slots would be filled when you start hero mode, so would we still require the person to collect 1 of each bug/treasure?

And saving at each bird statue blah blah fills map space blah. Just throwing stuff around.

Edit:

@ goddess cubes -- small note. the game actually does tell you on the pause menu how many there are left. view info for the cube dowser. I'm not sure if it also counts the chests though (they can be dowsed for too). Make of that what you will but they DO appear on the pause menu in some fashion.

Well this changed my opinion on whether or not we should get all of the cubes, which now I think we should just based on that.

Double Edit:
Yeah I can't find it, I'm selecting the goddess cube dowsing on the status screen and it's not giving me any numbers, just what it does <_< is there a video showing the cube count or something? (I'm on a file that doesn't have them all collected, in fact there's one right in front of my face right now)

[EverAlert]

I don't have an incomplete file but I can make a vid of it saying there are none left if that helps anything?

edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWywVlLrCm4
dat quality, xsplit hates me

[AniMeowzerz]

Ah ok, that's reasonable enough. I thought it would be an actual number counter, but that's good enough knowing "you got them all, you can stop now"

[EverAlert]

I actually noticed this only after I got them all, I assumed it would give a number counter like it does one of the other ones. (I think it was gratitude crystals?) But yeah either way it does keep track of whether you got them all or not.

[CloudMax]

Well, then it seems that most people agree that we should get the cubes now.
In the IRC when we talked about it yesterday, most people were against it because you couldn't keep track if you had all the cubes or not.
Now we actually have it in the pause menu.

If chests should be opened or not now is questionable and will probably end up being a decision made out of personal opinions and nothing more. But they do show a huge purple dot on every location on your map, which by some peoples logic would require them. But because they do not give you any useful rewards, they shouldn't be required.
I do not really want to open them, but to me it wouldn't matter if we had to open them, since it only would add like 10-20 minutes to a speedrun at most since we pass almost all the places after we've unlocked the chests.

And I'm still at either no medals (except for heart container ones), or all.
Statues doesn't really bother to me that much to be honest. It is just one of those small things that I want to have completed in my own personal 100% files. If it is part of the speedrunning definition doesn't really matter.
The same goes for rupee dowsing, which I do not even remember how you unlock. And if rupee dowsing isn't required, then heart dowsing shouldn't be either.

[Large_Dildo]

Well, then it seems that most people agree that we should get the cubes now.
In the IRC when we talked about it yesterday, most people were against it because you couldn't keep track if you had all the cubes or not.
Now we actually have it in the pause menu.

I don't mean to alarm you, but most people definitly haven't agreed on accepting cubes in. It seems like most people are against the cubes because they aren't collected and lead to useless chests that wouldn't get opened. With that said though, I do agree that all cubes should be unlocked since they are shown on the menu.

If chests should be opened or not now is questionable and will probably end up being a decision made out of personal opinions and nothing more. But they do show a huge purple dot on every location on your map, which by some peoples logic would require them. But because they do not give you any useful rewards, they shouldn't be required.
I do not really want to open them, but to me it wouldn't matter if we had to open them, since it only would add like 10-20 minutes to a speedrun at most since we pass almost all the places after we've unlocked the chests.

This is extremely arbitrary. 100% wouldn't require collecting all chests in dungeons, so why would the goddess cube chests need to be collected? It's adding length for the sake of extending an already huge category.

idk about medals w/e

[CloudMax]

This is extremely arbitrary. 100% wouldn't require collecting all chests in dungeons, so why would the goddess cube chests need to be collected? It's adding length for the sake of extending an already huge category.

Personal opinions. And we shouldn't compare them with the regular chests in dungeons, since they are very different in many ways.

I'm not saying that the should or shouldn't be opened, I'm just mentioning it.

Also, isn't the purpose of 100% to make a huge category where you do most of the stuff in the game?

Lets just put it this way:
I bring a friend home and tell him that I have 100% in a game.
We start up the game and he checks that map and asks "what are those purple dots?".
I'd answer, "it is chests you can unlock throughout the game, but I haven't opened them, because they do not contain anything useful".
Any person I know would instantly say that I do not have 100% in the game, because I avoid opening these special chests that are marked on the map, simply because I do not find the content useful.

So, from a casual gamers perspective, it would be a part of 100%, no doubt. And for my own personal file, it is a must for the file to be considered 100%.
But when it comes to the 100% definition, the rules will always be different.

And one last time: I am not saying that we should or shouldn't open them. I am just putting it out there so that people can think about it, because some people clearly doesn't. Some people just think "this is not fun and it takes a long time, and therefore we won't do it".