Glitchless Big-Octo Skip Route/Rule Change

[ZFG]

I 100% agree with everything Cafde has said aside from his vote itself.  Goron Tunic skip, big-octo skip and Spirit early as child are three things that are all very similar. I might suggest drawing the line at spirit early because you must take Link into an out-of-bounds area to get there as seen in this video.  The fact that the wall has no collision from the back would have been ok as set by the darunia door precedent (and kokiri forest's bridge clip too).  But being out-of-bounds makes that trick crossing the line IMO, and, in fact the current rules specifically state being out of bounds is disallowed.

But what if hypothetically you could skip the gate with just a damage boost and required no out of bounds?  Would it then be fine even though it's still a major sequence break?

Again, I don't really have a strong opinion one way or the other, but remember that you are deciding the rules for glitchless of an incredibly broken game with tons of grey areas, and trying to make the rules "consistent"/"non-arbitrary" may not be the best approach.

[troblana]

But what if hypothetically you could skip the gate with just a damage boost and required no out of bounds?  Would it then be fine even though it's still a major sequence break?

Again, I don't really have a strong opinion one way or the other, but remember that you are deciding the rules for glitchless of an incredibly broken game with tons of grey areas, and trying to make the rules "consistent"/"non-arbitrary" may not be the best approach.

Hard to tell. That sequence break is massive compared to goron tunic/big octo (by several temples etc) but its still hard to draw a line that makes sense. We're in an awkward spot because this buglimit route has a lot of questionable stuff in it still, compared to what MM has in its glitchless route for example. Having an actual "glitchless" category would be cool, but at this point that would probably result in 2 seperate categories since the current one is so well established, which could also be an option, but thats a different conversation.

At the moment it's mainly just about big octo skip and goron tunic skip since they are almost the exact same in that they skip a very small portion of the storyline and use the same trick to do it. To me it would make sense to either ban both, or allow both, and also see what else might fall under that "umbrella".

[Jethro]

But what if hypothetically you could skip the gate with just a damage boost and required no out of bounds?  Would it then be fine even though it's still a major sequence break?

Again, I don't really have a strong opinion one way or the other, but remember that you are deciding the rules for glitchless of an incredibly broken game with tons of grey areas, and trying to make the rules "consistent"/"non-arbitrary" may not be the best approach.

The hypothetical existence of a trick shouldn't really weigh in on the current debate, in my opinion.  

Also, yes, OoT speedruns have rulesets that are inherently arbitrary.  While we have to accept this, we can also take steps to make sure that what is happening in runs falls within the arbitrary conditions that have been established.  If Big-Octo skip and Goron Tunic skip fall within the same condition, they should both be allowed.

But, after thinking about it for a bit, the main difference between big octo being skipped and dead hand being skipped is that there is an integral part of the story being skipped. If big octo is skipped, how did ruto find the sapphire to give it to you in the first place?

I don't see the problem with skipping what I could consider small detail of the story.  Is a few seconds where Ruto sees the stone and disappears really integral?   Though to be honest, I wouldn't care if we skipped a huge portion of the story.  To me, glitchless any% is not about story continuity.  It's not a glitch to simply not trigger a cutscene.  It's not a bug either, to reference the Japanese category name of 'bug limit'.  What it is, is a sequence break.  The intended sequence of other temples are broken in glitchless, so this one can be as well.  Additionally, glitchless does Forest, Water and then Fire, which is not the intended story sequence.  Yet this is okay.  The Ice Cavern is also done out of sequence with the story.  The examples can continue beyond this, but you see my point.

So with all this, I fail to see why the Big-Octo cutscene, which lasts less than 30 seconds, is, above all else, so integral that we must have it in the run.

[quo]

a sequence break is doing something out of order, like temples, a skip is something that is simply not done. I don't see how you can compare big octo skip with doing the temples out of order.

Anyways, the comparison with darunia's door is also skewed, it says no where that you absolutely must use a damage boost to get to darunia's room, one of the comments (in favor for) of the jp community said was "I think that there is no problem since it is possible to pass through after getting long hook in normal play" (translation courtesy of google translate). The only reason a damage boost is used is because it's allowed and convenient to do so, but the rules clearly states that skipping big octo is not allowed, damage boost or no.

[troblana]

a sequence break is doing something out of order, like temples, a skip is something that is simply not done. I don't see how you can compare big octo skip with doing the temples out of order.

Anyways, the comparison with darunia's door is also skewed, it says no where that you absolutely must use a damage boost to get to darunia's room, one of the comments (in favor for) of the jp community said was "I think that there is no problem since it is possible to pass through after getting long hook in normal play" (translation courtesy of google translate). The only reason a damage boost is used is because it's allowed and convenient to do so, but the rules clearly states that skipping big octo is not allowed, damage boost or no.

Using a damage boost or not is irrelevant. The fact is you're skipping it, and you can compare skipping Goron Tunic and Big Octo because they are so similar. The damage boost element is just to point out to people that may think damage boosts aren't allowed in the run.
Both of these "tricks" skip a small amount of story, and arguably skipping lens of truth skips an even bigger element of the story + a whole dungeon..but that's still allowed. And the goal is to create atleast some element of consistency in an otherwise strongly inconsistent ruleset.

[dannyb21892]

a sequence break is doing something out of order, like temples, a skip is something that is simply not done. I don't see how you can compare big octo skip with doing the temples out of order.

Anyways, the comparison with darunia's door is also skewed, it says no where that you absolutely must use a damage boost to get to darunia's room, one of the comments (in favor for) of the jp community said was "I think that there is no problem since it is possible to pass through after getting long hook in normal play" (translation courtesy of google translate). The only reason a damage boost is used is because it's allowed and convenient to do so, but the rules clearly states that skipping big octo is not allowed, damage boost or no.

Just because you can do it without a damage boost means it's normal play?  This would require you to go to ice cavern and get iron boots, go do water temple to get longshot, and have the scarecrow's song all before getting the goron tunic.  That to me does not sound normal, as fire temple (for which the tunic is normally required) normally comes before water temple.

But the means of getting to Darunia's room is completely irrelevant.  The point is you're obviously not supposed to be there before getting the tunic as evidenced by closed doors on both sides of the room.  It's pretty clear that they intended you to have the tunic before being able to go learn bolero and enter fire temple. And yet we skip the tunic and go there anyway.   Which is exactly the same as moving on to the rest of Jabu earlier than intended by skipping big-octo.  I see zero issues with this comparison.

[Jethro]

I don't see how you can compare big octo skip with doing the temples out of order.

People seem to be concerned with story continuity.  That is, 'how does Ruto get the sapphire if we never do big-octo?'.  

My point in comparing big-octo skip with temple order, etc., is that the story, its content and its sequence, is clearly not of concern elsewhere in the run.  As such I don't think the story should be of concern with regard to the sapphire.

[cafde]

But the means of getting to Darunia's room is completely irrelevant.  The point is you're obviously not supposed to be there before getting the tunic as evidenced by closed doors on both sides of the room.  It's pretty clear that they intended you to have the tunic before being able to go learn bolero and enter fire temple. And yet we skip the tunic and go there anyway.   Which is exactly the same as moving on to the rest of Jabu earlier than intended by skipping big-octo.  I see zero issues with this comparison.

It's a pretty fair comparison, the only difference as of right now is one is allowed to go straight through darunia's door which is even worse. If going through darunia's door was banned then there would be little reason to skip goron tunic by any means.

People seem to be concerned with story continuity.  That is, 'how does Ruto get the sapphire if we never do big-octo?'. 

My point in comparing big-octo skip with temple order, etc., is that the story, its content and its sequence, is clearly not of concern elsewhere in the run.  As such I don't think the story should be of concern with regard to the sapphire.

Doing temples out of order is not skipping content nor story, though. As far as doing temples out of order is concerned, I think it's pretty obvious that Nintendo didn't care which order they were done in. There are no obvious obstacles and nothing stopping the player from, say, getting bow in forest temple then using that to complete water temple. Sure there are things indicating a proper order like navi and when sheik talks about the temples, but as far as the story is concerned they are completely independent. You don't see the goron talking about saria or the forest temple, do you? Also, which temple is first, shadow or spirit? Shadow vs. spirit first has been done to death and there's arguments for both, but I still think Nintendo was just letting the player have some independence on which he could choose (ex. both longshot and hoverboots can be used to cross the river of sand).

Big Octo skip on the other hand is skipping both content and story (however small it might seem to some people), which is what Quo was trying to point out.

[Jethro]

[...]
Big Octo skip on the other hand is skipping both content and story (however small it might seem to some people), which is what Quo was trying to point out.

While I don't concede my point regarding glitchless not respecting story elements, I don't want to argue about temple order and such and get off topic.  My comparison was simply an addition to my main point, which is:

Why is big-octo so integral to the story, that glitchless any%, which is not a category about experiencing the story, cannot skip it?

We rearrange the guided story (Temples, Ice Cavern, etc.), even if it is in a small way, like ignoring Navi.  We ignore elements of the story and plenty of content (botw, tunics, epona, sidequests, lots of npc conversations, etc.).  We ignore the intended way of solving puzzles (no slingshot, no hovers, etc.).  We skip other enemies that could be argued to be a mini boss (Dead Hand).  We skip parts of temples (b1 skip, water temple jumps, FW usage).  There are tons of things that are a part of the story of OoT that are completely ignored because they are not in the path of the run.  Some small details.  Some large and iconic. 

Why, if we ignore so much, do we need to watch Ruto run towards the sapphire?  Why does this one cutscene rise above all the rest as something that is so integral, that we need to spend minutes in order to watch it? 

[...] If big octo is skipped, how did ruto find the sapphire to give it to you in the first place?

This seems to be the main answer.  Everyone says, 'because sapphire continuity is integral'.  But why is it integral?  Why, in a speedrun, do we need this single bit of story continuity?  The category is supposed to ban glitches, not maintain suspension of disbelief regarding the ability of Sages to give out Spiritual Stones.

[troblana]

The category is supposed to ban glitches, not maintain suspension of disbelief regarding the ability of Sages to give out Spiritual Stones.

+1

[troblana]

Big Octo skip on the other hand is skipping both content and story (however small it might seem to some people), which is what Quo was trying to point out.

Wouldn't we have to do BOTW then? That's a huge chunk of story, content (a whole dungeon!)+ an item.

[quo]

if we could hit the trials loading zone with a damage boost, would it be allowed in glitchless? trials are not integral to the story.

[dannyb21892]

if we could hit the trials loading zone with a damage boost, would it be allowed in glitchless? trials are not integral to the story.

No it would not be allowed.  The fundamental outline of the category is that we collect all spiritual stones, medallions and take down the trials barrier.  In that sense, the category is intended to be a bug-limited MST.  Source:  The very first heading is called "cardinal rule" and states what I have said: http://www34.atwiki.jp/ootglitchless/pages/17.html

Now can we please not pull hypothetical and non-existent tricks out of a hat for the sake of complicating the argument?  It seems everyone who wishes to argue against big-octo skip has nothing but hypotheticals to back up their opinions. The fact remains we skip content and story elements of equal magnitude to big-octo skip elsewhere in the run and I would love for anyone who disagrees with allowing the skip to specifically address why we should keep THIS rule.  What are you arguing that we should do?  What is your stake in this argument besides argument itself?  Why do you think that we should have to fight big-octo and watch the associated cutscenes?  So far none but cafde has actually answered this, and he thinks the other skip of equal magnitude should also be disallowed, which is a totally respectable argument.

[cafde]

Wouldn't we have to do BOTW then? That's a huge chunk of story, content (a whole dungeon!)+ an item.

I'd be all for it, but I think most people consider the well to not be a major point of the story (no sage, no medallion/stone, an item that only has use if the player doesn't have knowledge of invisible objects). There are plenty of other skipped items like beans and nayru's love but I don't really want to get into a discussion about item skips.

While I don't concede my point regarding glitchless not respecting story elements, I don't want to argue about temple order and such and get off topic.  My comparison was simply an addition to my main point, which is:

Why is big-octo so integral to the story, that glitchless any%, which is not a category about experiencing the story, cannot skip it?

We rearrange the guided story (Temples, Ice Cavern, etc.), even if it is in a small way, like ignoring Navi.  We ignore elements of the story and plenty of content (botw, tunics, epona, sidequests, lots of npc conversations, etc.).  We ignore the intended way of solving puzzles (no slingshot, no hovers, etc.).  We skip other enemies that could be argued to be a mini boss (Dead Hand).  We skip parts of temples (b1 skip, water temple jumps, FW usage).  There are tons of things that are a part of the story of OoT that are completely ignored because they are not in the path of the run.  Some small details.  Some large and iconic. 

Why, if we ignore so much, do we need to watch Ruto run towards the sapphire?  Why does this one cutscene rise above all the rest as something that is so integral, that we need to spend minutes in order to watch it? 

This seems to be the main answer.  Everyone says, 'because sapphire continuity is integral'.  But why is it integral?  Why, in a speedrun, do we need this single bit of story continuity?  The category is supposed to ban glitches, not maintain suspension of disbelief regarding the ability of Sages to give out Spiritual Stones.

The problem here seems to be what constitutes an integral part of the story. I don't know if this can really be defined (to me darunia's son is an integral part of the fire temple part of the story but to someone else it might not be), but what I was mainly trying to point out before was that story continuity was important enough for some people that, for this reason, decided against allowing something that broke the story even though no glitches are used. It also comes up in the vote for allowing shadow early as some people voted against it only because it broke story and not necessarily because it a glitch. There are a few more examples of things I would consider to be even more minor than big octo skip that are banned for story/continuity reasons (mido skip, savewarping). As you said, the contradictions don't just stop at big octo skip and goron tunic skip, but a plethora of other things too. So while, yes, the category is not about story preservation, it is important enough that several people care about it and is really the only category that has a semblance of caring about the story.

Perhaps a reason why goron tunic skip was thought to not be as necessary was that zora tunic has been skipped for ages and is a similar situation. Also maybe I wasn't clear enough in a previous post but I'm not as much against goron tunic skip than I am against going through darunia's closed door which is just completely going through a wall via one-sided collision.

[Off topic] If an in bounds child gate skip were found, the only thing skipped would be gerudo card because of other restrictions on the rules. I messed around with this yesterday and it seems potentially possible with a well placed bombchu, ess sidehop to preserve direction, and good timing (maybe tas only).

[95Shade]

I think the skip should be added, for the same reasons as you dannyb.