Super Jumping (Big Ups)

[Riddler]

I agree with friedpotato

[LoenP]

Maybe I'm just slow, but this exact same discussion seemed to happen behind the scenes 1.5 years ago, and "many of us" decided super jumping was banned...

This was back when around half a dozen people regularly ran, almost none of which currently do (I can't even think of any off hand who predate me at the moment). The entire reason this discussion was brought up again was due to constant friction over the old ruleset being ambiguous and seemingly contradictory or not laid out as well as it could have been.

Also again with how people feel about allowing 'limited SJs' by defining OoB under the 'bass ruleset it seems like people do find virtue and usefulness in a category that sits between your ruleset 3 and 4 (by your previous post) to serve as the 'main' one.

Given community desire to do it (going by the votes and general opinion I've felt from chats and what not) I see no reason this category shouldn't exist and that it doesn't feel particularly redundant.

I really, really like your breakdown of the 'tiers' of glitching though that could serve as easy logical points of rule categorizing.

Here is how I feel, defining 'warps' as Tompa's definition of an act that transfers you from one dungeon or cave system to another (D7 mini boss warp, jumping on top of tal tal heights ceiling and walking to wind fish boss, etc.), and defining "Out of Bounds" with the ruleset that seabass has cooked up and that the community has largely decided on.


Any% - Anything goes. True Any%. That being said with how fast Dog House is it is very unlikely it will develop to be anything other than 'dog house category'
Any% No DHG - Dog House disallowed. 'Warps', OoB, S+Q allowed.
Any (All Instruments)% No Warps, No Pups, No problems - Dog House and Warps disallowed. S+Q and Out of Bounds Allowed (I could see perhaps Any% S+Q as it currently exists on the leaderboard being merged with this maybe?)
Any (All Instruments)% No DHG, Warps, OoB, S+Q. - Dog House, Warps, Out of Bounds, S+Q disallowed.
Legacy% (All Instruments) - No Dog house, warps, out of bounds, save and quit, deaths (so buying shovel), no villa skip (so doing kamelot and the full first half of trading sequence).

Again, I think the difference between Legacy% and category 3 with OoB allowed is pretty large and fits well into the ruleset as something between 3 and 5 without being redundant.

Just thinking out loud here, most of the categories are defined by the tricks (for lack of a better word) that are allowed, all of which have the same goal of "Enter Windfish Egg with the tools available to you (in all categories other than Any% and Any% Warps this makes getting all instruments necessary)."

The exceptions here are All Instruments and Hundo which are categorized by a content goal and not by ruleset.

Also if someone has a better idea for category names or naming conventions I'm down.

[LoenP]

Also would like to stress since I know how a few have gotten heated or upset over a 'silly' amount of categories that was just a hypothetical list of categories you could logically make my adding/subtracting the different levels of rulesets.

As is in that post I only see 2, maybe 3 categories regularly ran, in this order

1) Main category (looking to be option 4 of my prior post)
2) Any%
3) Category 3 of prior post.

The other categories, being Any% No Dog House, 100%, All Instruments, and Legacy% would very likely be side categories ot be dabbled in once in a while for flavour that would be explored on a basis of individual interest (much like current 100% and All Instruments).

[Drenn]

I like where this is going. I mostly agree with leon so far. I think a category 3.5 should be a thing, as people are definitely interested in using superjumps that don't completely destroy the game. Considering that, I don't quite agree with the way you defined #4, potato. Here's my take on it.

Doghouse - entering a door from the wrong side
Walk through walls (wtw) - superjumping in water
Warping - Transitioning from one dungeon or cave system to another
Minor oob allowed - Bass's ruleset

1) No restrictions
2) No doghouse, no wtw
3) No dh, no warping, no wtw (any oob allowed)
3.5) No dh, no warping, no wtw, minor oob allowed (Bass ruleset)
4) No major glitches / legacy%? (no dh, no ww, no wtw, no villa skip, no deloading, no superjumping, minor oob allowed, no s+q)

The reason I still say "minor oob allowed" for legacy% is just because I don't think we have a particularly satisfactory definition for "no oob". We could, perhaps, go with "not allowed to clip more than 3 pixels into a wall" again, but I don't particularly like that, because in some cases you can become "accidentally" or "incidentally" clipped into a wall. Tompa's hookshot-through-moving-blocks technique comes to mind.

Of the categories that might actually be run, I imagine #3 would be too similar to #3.5 to generate much interest. The rest, I could imagine myself running.

Another note, bass's ruleset overlaps with the "no warping" rule, as it says you can't transition in certain places. This isn't necessarily a problem though.

As for original LA, I guess you could throw in a "no screenwarping" rule for #2 and up... I think that should work, though I'm not entirely familiar with that game.

Oh, and I didn't put "no s+q" in #3.5. I don't have strong feelings on that.

[Hawkrex]

Hey everybody.

Sorry for interrupting this discussion.

I found a Super Jump in D3 for getting Pegasus boots that saves 0.86 second. That's seems nothing, but it is quite fun.
It seems that it works best with a PoP active, but I'm not sure because I'm quite a newbie in SJs


Here is my highlight that compares this strat with the normal strat.
http://www.twitch.tv/hawkrex/c/6486978

[Riddler]

Also would like to stress since I know how a few have gotten heated or upset over a 'silly' amount of categories that was just a hypothetical list of categories you could logically make my adding/subtracting the different levels of rulesets.

As is in that post I only see 2, maybe 3 categories regularly ran, in this order

1) Main category (looking to be option 4 of my prior post)
2) Any%
3) Category 3 of prior post.

The other categories, being Any% No Dog House, 100%, All Instruments, and Legacy% would very likely be side categories ot be dabbled in once in a while for flavour that would be explored on a basis of individual interest (much like current 100% and All Instruments).

But where is 100% in all this? what tricks should be allowed in 100%? obviously not DHG but what about SJ's, No-Clip, etc?

[Riddler]

It seems that right now everyone is making up their own rules as they run, at least to me thats what it looks like, there is no set path for anyone to follow.. so we just have to make our own? that is what has turned me off from running LADX and honestly idk if i want to come back until things are completely settled with no argument left on either side

[Drenn]

So, the majority of people agreed on seabass's ruleset earlier, and I think we're sticking with that. This further discussion is (hopefully) just over possible other categories that could be interesting to run - ways of separating the "tiers" of glitches. Discussion over the "main" category's rules has been going on for quite a long time, so I'd very much prefer if we could agree that these are the rules the main category is using now. Sorry if I overcomplicated things with my last post...

[friedpotato]

I think a lot of us are in agreement but there are just too many options.

So there are 4 levels of OoB in LADX!?:
- no OoB - 3-pixel wall-clip rule
- Bass rules (superjumps + hookshot clip) - you can go over/clip through solid walls, but no free roaming OoB (no cave ceilings etc.)
- OoB - you can use superjumps or other techniques to get OoB (on cave/wall ceilings)
- WtW (walk though walls) - superjumping while swimming to get OoB

Also, these rules can apply to any%, all-instruments%, or 100%
Also, OoB and WtW can also allow or disallow wrong warping (WW - moving between unconnected map regions)
Also, we can allow s+q or no s+q
Also, doghouse a.k.a. no restrictions

The current leaderboard categories are:
- any% (no restrictions)
- all-instruments (no restrictions)
- any%/all-instruments (no OoB, no WW, no s+q)
- any%/all-instruments (no OoB, no WW, s+q)
- 100% (no OoB, no WW, s+q)

OK, so most people want to ditch "no OoB" for "Bass rules" across the board.
I think it would be fun to highlight each of: OoB, WW, and WtW.
As far as 100%... I'm not sure. Maybe add a (WtW, WW, s+q)? Because if you're going to walk around wherever you want, at least have the decency to collect all the items...
Doghouse 100%???

***************
Proposed new leaderboard: (please suggest adding/removing categories)
- any% (no restrictions)
- all-instruments (no restrictions)
- any%/all-instruments (Bass, no WW, no s+q) <-- this is what most folks are currently running
- any%/all-instruments (OoB, no WW, s+q)
- all-instruments (OoB, WW, s+q)
- any%/all-instruments (WtW, no WW, s+q) **this is my favorite potential category... I'm biased...**
- 100% (Bass, no WW, s+q) <-- really close to the current 100%
- 100% (WtW, WW, s+q) <-- because why not

Potentially popular categories:
- any% (OoB, WW, s+q)
- any%/all-instruments (no OoB, no WW, no s+q, no villa skip) <-- legacy% (add buy-the-shovel%??)
- 100% (no restrictions)

[SurrealGuy]

I think we will see which category is run the most. (Although it's understandable that some people dont like to run as long as this isnt really settled). We have quite a lot of categories to choose from.
Maybe we can do some races of some categories. I'll try to stream this evening. I would like to do a run of All Instruments (no WW). That one looks like a cool run to me

[Riddler]

I honestly don't like the idea of having a 100% with no restrictions. I know it was just a fun idea but until this game and its current categories are redefined I don't see the need for any more :p

[LoenP]

In keeping with how it has been in the past 100% would be no Dog House, no warps, no OoB, and I'm hesitant to allow SJs in it but that is just me. I feel that 100% has the implied intention of being the 'do all the meaningful content' category without utilizing significant skips to accomplish that, or at least that has been my interpretation of it, so I'm hesitant to allow things on it that let you skip large amounts of the content.

The main category *has* been decided on, no one is 'making up' rules. That is what the entire vote on the super jumps was about. The category is using the seabass ruleset of Super Jumps, people have been doing runs and submitting them. At this point the only confusion is (or should be) around the categories surrounding it but main category/any% no S+Q is defined with people running it.

The discussion going on here is more about how to define the (define meaning description-wise not the actual changing of) the rulesets and tiers of tricks.

[LoenP]

Also I propose keeping the leaderboards as is. Categories can be added later, and I think it's better handled by just doing the natural process of seeing which rulesets people become interested in and decide to route, and when enough interest or demand exists, can be easily added as a formal category to the leaderboard later.

I don't like or agree with arguments against 'category saturation' but I don't think making 4 theory ones no one has done before and throwing them onto the leaderboard is the right step, either.  My opinion is that things should remain as they are now on the leaderboards and letting it evolve and develop naturally on the basis of what ends up seeing activity and what doesn't.


Also can we have a better naming convention. Any% No DHG Warps OoB S+Q is a bit convoluted

[friedpotato]

@Leon, Yeah, that's a good point. We definitely can't remake the leaderboard full of new, empty categories... That would look silly... I guess I was proposing potential leaderboard/race categories for the future? I like SurrealGuy's idea of testing some of them out with races.

I expect that if we go with "see which category is run most", we could easily end up with every person running their own set of rules. My list was intended to present some ideas to collect people into common categories. I just think if people are going to try out new rules, we should have some defined rulesets available beforehand to get everyone on the same page.


As far as naming goes, I think we agree that "no OoB" means seabass rules? I dont think "no doghouse" or "no walk though walls" needs to be in the title of the run, just in the rule description, since it's kind of the default. Also, I don't think you need to specify "no WW" for a "no OoB" category. Finally, I'd say that s+q should be the default, so only "no s+q" should be specified. The main category would be "any% (no OoB, no s+q)"

OR... we could have short category names like OoT and put everything in the rule description. Here's a bunch of ideas for that approach:
- Warpless = any%/all instruments (no OoB, no s+q) <-- main category (Do people like the word "warpless"?)
- No Out of Bounds = any%/all instruments (no OoB)
- No Wrong Warps = any%/all instruments (OoB, no WW)
- Exploration = any%/all instruments (WtW, no WW)
- No Doghouse = all instruments (OoB, WW, no doghouse)
- Glitchless = legacy% (no OoB, no s+q, no villa skip, buy the shovel, etc. )

[friedpotato]

Hey everybody.

Sorry for interrupting this discussion.

I found a Super Jump in D3 for getting Pegasus boots that saves 0.86 second. That's seems nothing, but it is quite fun.
It seems that it works best with a PoP active, but I'm not sure because I'm quite a newbie in SJs


Here is my highlight that compares this strat with the normal strat.
http://www.twitch.tv/hawkrex/c/6486978

Nice! I couldn't get this to work consistently enough to justify the <1 sec time save... I think it will be even better for a s+q category since you can avoid pushing the blocks at all to save a couple more seconds.