Majora's Mask 3D: Speedrunning Discussion | Research & Discovery | Ask Questions

[Madmonk12345]

Uh, wow guys. You need to do more thorough testing. I just did a failed consecutive jump slash as regular link and it doesn't crash at all when you are high enough. O.O

[Madmonk12345]

OK. RIP that idea. when you attempt to do the third mask jump the game crashes because it attempts to go to an animation Link doesn't have that Zora does. :/ It's a shame, because link clearly is gaining height, and it's so much easier as regular Link.

I guess this is where that rumor came from. Bizarre.

[Madmonk12345]

OK, everyone had better thank me again for saving your asses. I swear, you guys have no drive at all. I've found a way to do the arbitrary height trick as zora the five buffer way, meaning everybody can do it.
The only thing we were doing wrong is not doing it fast enough.
1) press bottle and home at the same time as soon as possible after coming out of the menu(not as precise as b + home at all. best scenario is that link doesn't change positions at all after home. I was consistent at this part as soon as I tried it, and you should be too if you were doing CMJs already.)
2) press b the very next frame.
3) wait a frame
4) hold physical mask button plus mask or item inventory button.
5) release everything.
If you do it this way, link will gain height on every mask jump.

No more excuses for anybody. everyone can do this.

[benstephens1000]

https://youtu.be/yUS0OQDL5wI

Fireblaze found a method to do this without Goron mask so I'll probably make a video of me doing that late tonight.

[weckar]

Awesome tutorial. Any idea how long it would take at run speed?

[reidenlightman]

Awesome tutorial. Any idea how long it would take at run speed?

In my experiments, I've found that simple consecutive mask jumps take about 15-20 seconds per mask jump. Raising mask jumps take a bit longer per mask jump. Probably around 20-25 optimally, but would probably average 30-35 seconds per mask jump. Other than that, it's pretty arbitrary how much time is costs to do in run.

I.E., Mask jump clipping into Milk bar takes about 45-50 seconds if done pretty quickly. That's from walking backwards off the ledge to getting into the Milk bar. Compared to the ~10 seconds of extra door transitions from going to W. Clock town, exiting W. clock town, getting back in W. clock town, and going to S. clock town. Arbitrarily, it kind of only costs about 30-35 seconds in that particular spot.

That's probably not what you were asking, but I thought I'd try to shed some light.

OK, everyone had better thank me again for saving your asses. I swear, you guys have no drive at all. I've found a way to do the arbitrary height trick as zora the five buffer way, meaning everybody can do it...

...No more excuses for anybody. everyone can do this.

@MadMonk It's not really fair to say we're not trying. Some of us want to speedrun and continue speedrunning, and trying to practice something that we're not good at figuring out on our own is kind of a waste of time. And not all of us have a n3DS or a circle pad pro for easy buffering. I ONLY started to record again for a new PB because my friends got me a n3DS for my birthday and I wanted to set and record a new PB.

(end of @MadMonk)

I've been at drive trying to figure out the fastest way to do certain things. Even trying to make up for loss of Deku Sword as much as possible in Epona Skip route. I even have a few videos which I was able to do thanks to my PB video.


Best Strat For Pirate's Fortress (Climbing up the Tower) | Majora's Mask 3D

Best Strat for Ghomess (Any% Epona Skip Route) | Majora's Mask 3D

Best Strat for Garo Master (Any% Epona Skip Route) | Majora's Mask 3D

Best STT Map Room Strat for Any% | Majora's Mask 3D <- BenStephens helped me improve this from my original idea.

[gymnast86]

I've been at drive trying to figure out the fastest way to do certain things. Even trying to make up for loss of Deku Sword as much as possible in Epona Skip route. I even have a few videos which I was able to do thanks to my PB video.


Best Strat For Pirate's Fortress (Climbing up the Tower) | Majora's Mask 3D

Best Strat for Ghomess (Any% Epona Skip Route) | Majora's Mask 3D

Best Strat for Garo Master (Any% Epona Skip Route) | Majora's Mask 3D

Best STT Map Room Strat for Any% | Majora's Mask 3D <- BenStephens helped me improve this from my original idea.

All of these strats look nice except for the Ghomess fight. It can be done much more easily by just using straight light arrows. It does require an RNG magic drop but since the Keese are constantly spawning around him it shouldnt be too much of a problem. Simply begin quickspinning if you run out of magic. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cdGxuEjRdI (Or get lucky like I did in the video )

[reidenlightman]

All of these strats look nice except for the Ghomess fight. It can be done much more easily by just using straight light arrows. It does require an RNG magic drop but since the Keese are constantly spawning around him it shouldnt be too much of a problem. Simply begin quickspinning if you run out of magic. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cdGxuEjRdI (Or get lucky like I did in the video )

I'm not sure how I feel about using light arrows all the time. What if you could use deku nuts then light arrows? Maybe not hu? I just think without relying on rng, using a stick slash after deku nuts is still a good time saver.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AtCoKudPLU

Sometimes when using the sticks, you hit a bat and ghomess (weird) which could fill on magic if needed. So I'll probably start using a light arrow for the first hit, use sticks until I'm out or I get a magic drop, then using light arrows again. Maybe be more consistent. We don't want to rely on RNG at any given moment.

Also Iwabi's 1:47:45 (WR as of this post) run shows that Ghomess can be hit with a stick jumpslash if light arrows are used to stun him. Not sure how fast that method is compared to the rest of ours, but I'd wager it's as fast as all light arrows if not faster since you don't have to wait after using alight arrow to pull out a stick. Light arrow, then pull out stick right away, then jumpslash when you can. I vote for that method. It's pretty easy, and if you enter with full magic, you will definitely having enough.

More finds

So it seems that buffering for the zora clip also stalls the timer for WW and 0th day. But that was obvious. But we need to take advantage of knowing that. To do Twinmold before Gyorg, we need to adjust the WW windows for Gyorg (or save and quit at a feather statue in Inverted Stone Tower Temple). The amount of time will be different for each system, but most New 3DSs will take 3.2 seconds to go out of the game and back in. Total time is roughly 38.4. You might want to test your own machine and see how fast or slow it does for you, then write down the earliest cycles you can get after Twinmold adjusted with that number.

Note: you need to have all of your buffers as fast as possible without dangling in the home menu for any reason. Practice your milk bar skip. Grind it like hell.

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After doing a few route changes, your timer should be in the 27-28 minute range when you defeat Twinmold. This leaves offsets of windows in those minutes and beyond as candidates for a Gibdo BA. This route change came from discovering that you can BA, then save and quit, and the BA will carry over when you restart the game. You can even turn off the system and remove the cartridge. Start the game up again, it will be set up for a wrong warp. This is handy as it helps with convenience after Goht.

Let's say you did BA at 3:49 for Goht and beat him with an ideal fight. You didn't save and quit. You regain control of Link in Mountain Village around 9:30. Still 60 seconds until the next wrong warp window, 10:31-10:45. That's 60 seconds of waiting. I mean, you could get damage from the tektite, but that only takes about 10 seconds to do. And you only need 2-3 more sticks from the babas. You would have plenty of time to do that after the BA where time it doesn't matter as long as you're in Milk Bar before 6am. There's a lot of wasted time here.

So I wanted to see if I could retain WW after a Save and Quit. And for kicks, I had my timer going after that save and quit. After an ideal Goht fight, I was put back in roughtly 23 seconds before the window. It takes 28 seconds to save, quit, and restart (26 on digital versions), and 28+23=51. That's less than 60. In this manner, after you do Gibdo BA for Goht wrong warp, if you collect sticks until you hear the clock tower ring (6 sticks optimally), then save and quit, it puts you at the perfect time. Of course, you can give yourself a bit more time to get to the grotto by saving a little later, but waiting any more than another 5-6 seconds nulls the time save this strat offers.

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I've been testing boss key fight skip. Obviously it's not hard to get a good gecko fight, but it's a bit tougher to do the skip. Just a bit though, but can be executed pretty quickly. I timed each one over and over to see the fastest times I could get with each one. Timing started when I pressed A to enter the room and timing stopped when the tatl alert for the main room popped up (since that's where the two strats intersect).

The best time I got with Gecko fight is 1:35.

The best time I got with Boss Key fight skip is 1:20.

So there you have it. I was able to save 15 more seconds due to this strat. Wouldn't we all like 15 seconds?

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Also

Link to the route I've been working on. I hope I can get some feedback on this.

[Madmonk12345]

@MadMonk It's not really fair to say we're not trying. Some of us want to speedrun and continue speedrunning, and trying to practice something that we're not good at figuring out on our own is kind of a waste of time. And not all of us have a n3DS or a circle pad pro for easy buffering. I ONLY started to record again for a new PB because my friends got me a n3DS for my birthday and I wanted to set and record a new PB.

Sorry about that. Was a bit emotional at that moment. There was a long period where I was concerned that the trick would never appear in a run and that people wouldn't find other things with this because of system requirements. I was channeling some of that, even though that time has passed.

I wonder if arbitrary height gain and goron skip could be practical for any%. With fast buffers and by increasing the speed and difficulty of the trick by removing a few of the 5 buffers we do now, it's possible it could be done much faster than it is now without going as crazy as a tas would. It probably needs to happen if we're going to beat MM2D times unfortunately.

[reidenlightman]

Sorry about that. Was a bit emotional at that moment. There was a long period where I was concerned that the trick would never appear in a run and that people wouldn't find other things with this because of system requirements. I was channeling some of that, even though that time has passed.

I wonder if arbitrary height gain and goron skip could be practical for any%. With fast buffers and by increasing the speed and difficulty of the trick by removing a few of the 5 buffers we do now, it's possible it could be done much faster than it is now without going as crazy as a tas would. It probably needs to happen if we're going to beat MM2D times unfortunately.

Believe me, I want to make this game faster too. I've put so much work into improving the Epona Skip route. I probably beat Goht 20 times yesterday in my testing.

Ben's find with the circle pad pro is crazy and what made this trick more accessible. Otherwise, I think I'd probably be the only one doing it since I have a n3DS. The trick's not much easier, but it's more accessible.

And if I didn't get at least some credit for the route, I'd be pissed, so I know how you were probably feeling. I think most of us aren't exactly cut out to be glitch-hunters.

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I suppose we could mask jump with height gain past the two fences for early Ikana. And the same could probably be done from the rock we stand on to get up there. That would probably take 1 and 1/2 minutes per fence (sub-optimal). And then use this thing I found. But then the sunblock tower takes 10 mask jumps. I got onto it with 1 mask jump from a side hope, then 9 more for height gain. Not all of them were perfect either. That's 3 seconds per buffer, 5 buffers per jump, 3 for the first one.

That's 3*5*9+3*3*1=144. Aproximately 144 seconds to get on top of that. And that's if you're fast and only counts the minimum amount of buffers. That doesn't count menu time.. A minimum of 2 1/2 minutes is required to reach it. 3 minutes if you're pretty slow though. That's for the time block. For the fences, we need 1 mask jump and 2 height gaining mask jumps per fence. 2(3*3+5*3) 48 seconds. So round up to another minute. We're looking at strats that show 3 1/2 minutes. From clock town owl to lens to goron mask to clock town owl again is 5 1/2 minutes of time average. That sounds like 2 minutes of time save.

BUT, I haven't even taken into consideration how much longer Goht will take, how much slower we'll be without Goron rolling, and the fact that we still need to go to Mountain Village to get the owl statue unless we move that later in the run to when we need mountain village. So the trip from clock town up to Mountain Village owl is NOT time saved.

The time it takes to get from clock town owl to mountain village owl (and activate it) is ~1:35. So in order to save time, Goht cannot take longer than 30 seconds more than Goron strats.

If you're wondering why I'm doing all this math, it's because I want to know if skipping goron mask could actually save time or if it's just a pipe dream.

I also wonder how we beat goht without goron mask.

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Link to Epona Skip Route by ReidenLightman

[gymnast86]

Well the route with epona skip was pretty obvious to come up with since all we have to do is not get epona and continue let he timer running while doing all the wrong warps. I don't want to say that you don't deserve "credit" for the route, but the first hour is basically the same and we just chain the wrong warps after that. Although I didn't think about doing gyorg last to hopefully get third day so good job on that .

As for skipping Goron mask, I honestly don't think it would be worth it at this point unless we can find a way to move as fast as Goron link, and find a way to fight Goht which won't take an annoying amount of time. Also, not being a Goron also presents the potential for missing wrong warp cycles because of slower movement and Goron link is pretty useful for the majors fight.

And speaking of the majors fight, the fastest I seem to be able to beat it whilst using Goron link on Wrath took me ~3:30 with a very good fight starting from the fade out after talking to the child beneath the tree. If anyone has faster Majora starts I would love to hear them.

[reidenlightman]

Well the route with epona skip was pretty obvious to come up with since all we have to do is not get epona and continue let he timer running while doing all the wrong warps. I don't want to say that you don't deserve "credit" for the route, but the first hour is basically the same and we just chain the wrong warps after that. Although I didn't think about doing gyorg last to hopefully get third day so good job on that .

I didn't want all the credit. But at least some credit for what I was able to come up with. After all, I'm just trying to make sure every point in the route is using time wisely, especially when waiting for WW windows. (I want to credit the contributors who came up with the route that included deku sword and epona clip into milk bar. PM me on forums.zeldaspeedruns.com)

I did think doing Gyorg last was pretty clever. To be honest, it came from wanting to do STT wrong warp asap so when you lost a run to it, it kill maybe 1h 20m instead of 1h 40m. You could do Stone Tower Temple before Goht if you managed to collect 8 sticks without wasting time. When I first did the route in a practice run, I found myself hoping that when I mashed for Gyorg I would get third day.

Then, conveniently, I had the thought that the fewer hearts you have, the less damage you would have to take to be ready for elegy skip in switch puzzle. If you end up being full, there are PLENTY of bomb drops directly afterwards in STT. You can drop bomb and have them hurt you while you're pushing the block. 0.25 seconds per bomb. 5 hearts, you lose 1 heart to the bombchus, so max amount of bombs you would spend on this is 5. More efficient than bombchus against a statue or using the tektite on your way to the grotto.

Also, Gyorg last conveniently puts a backup fairy less than 5 seconds away from Link after the Giant's cutscene.

As for skipping Goron mask, I honestly don't think it would be worth it at this point unless we can find a way to move as fast as Goron link, and find a way to fight Goht which won't take an annoying amount of time. Also, not being a Goron also presents the potential for missing wrong warp cycles because of slower movement and Goron link is pretty useful for the majors fight.

And speaking of the majors fight, the fastest I seem to be able to beat it whilst using Goron link on Wrath took me ~3:30 with a very good fight starting from the fade out after talking to the child beneath the tree. If anyone has faster Majora starts I would love to hear them.

For incarnation (which seems to be the most troublesome for most), I use any sticks I've gathered between Twinmold and Gyorg WW. After I stun incarnation, I jumpslash with a stick then sword quick spin and hope the quick spin stuns him again. Another stick jumpslash and quick spins. 5-6 damage per stun, so about 6 stuns oughta do it.

I haven't been able to actually get Goron to punch wrath. He always seems to miss after the first punch. Any help on this would be appreciated. Stick strats are unreliable for Wrath. And Light arrows and definitely best for Mask phase.

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God damn, I found a better and easier way to target the path to Ikana feather statue as a Zora. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gItveeIMy9s

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Wow, I always try to keep these small and end up writing a lot.

Thanks to those who routed the game before Epona Skip.
Thanks to Gymast and BenStephens for helping me optimize certain areas.
Thanks to Fozzy for his encouragement.
Thanks to iwabi who demonstrated stick jumpslashes on Ghomess
Thanks to Lily247 who gave me the idea to save+quit between BA and WW.

[gymnast86]

Wait I still don't understand why it is necessary to S + Q in STT. What's the reason for it? As far as I'm concerned the wrong warp cycle is still going and being activated every 80 seconds

[reidenlightman]

Wait I still don't understand why it is necessary to S + Q in STT. What's the reason for it? As far as I'm concerned the wrong warp cycle is still going and being activated every 80 seconds

When you home buffer, the in-game timer pauses. Unless you plan to pause your timer whenever you hit the home button and resume your timer whenever the game continues again, you should Save and Quit. Alternatively, you can time how long it takes for your 3DS to go out and in 12 times. That's the amount of times you will suspend and resume the game when buffering the Milk bar clip. And while you're waiting, pause your timer for that amount of time. If you used any extra pauses, you'll have to pause your timer a little longer. Meanwhile, on the arkazoth cycle timer, I added another region for where the windows will be if I do my buffering exactly right.

Otherwise, doing a save and quit after fighting Ghomess and soaring to entrance is easiest strat for that WW.

[Pedalpowertoast]

Sorry guys, but can you stop calling him Ghomess? It's Gomess...


Kappa