Any% route discussion

[kirbymastah]

Interesting, since you do get the text. Then that means using rhealt's route is about 1.5 seconds faster than zander's route.

However (correct me if I'm wrong), this is 1.5 seconds faster for the route starting upon entering Lorule, correct? Using rhealt's route requires having hookshot early, which costs 3 seconds (vs. getting hookshot in Lorule) pre-Lorule, assuming you get the kakariko silver rupee. So ultimately, rhealt's route is ~1.5 seconds slower?

It might be worth using rhealt's route anyways, since it frees up an extra 50 rupees to save for the bomb flower in Lorule. It's uncommon, but it does happen that you don't get enough total rupees in Lorule to buy hookshot+ice+fire+sand rods, and also the bomb flower. If we have an extra 50 rupees, it also means we can be a bit more lenient on skipping tiny detours for rupees in Lorule dungeons?

I'm not sure if anyone's specifically written out a rupee route for Lorule. But I do think hookshot early is worth the safety of 1.5 seconds ultimately.


SIDE TOPIC: THIEVES' HIDEOUT STRATS

So when watching zander's current record, I noticed that he manually slashes every enemy. I'm pretty sure that, since bombs/bow are already equipped for majority of thieves' hideout anyways, it'd save time to use them.

The first encounter with the four blue enemies, I plant a bomb right when they fall from the ceiling, then go for the left guy while the other three walk into the bomb. Not sure if that's really worth it, since bombs do only 3 damage (master sword does 2) =/

Something I DO know for sure that's faster, though, is the forced fight with two blue enemies, in the room with the three switches (room before the boss key room). Immediately upon the two guys falling, I drop a bomb in the center, go for the right guy while the left walks into the bomb, then ideally you'd fire 4 arrows to finish off the left guy, so you don't have to bother going up close to him. It's pretty difficult though, and I'll have to see if there's a consistent way; an easier method would probably be slash him around 2-3 times then snipe him from far away, so you're close to the door.

[RheaultWnage]

No, Zander's current route is the fastest one of those we mentionned. The text I was talking about is the one you get from the Lorule Blacksmith after you've upgraded to the Tempered Sword. Zander's route doesn't get that text, since he doesn't pass by the Lorule Blacksmith after he's upgraded the sword once, only before.

Now, I previously timed that Zander's route was about 10 seconds faster than mine, but I didn't include that warp difference. The walk is abuot 10 seconds shorter in my route, which would lead to both routes being pretty much the "same" time. But since we my route gets that extra text, it is effectively 5 seconds slower than Zander's.

The thing is, even if we could skip that text from the Blacksmith, my route still wouldn't be the fastest, because you could just take Zander's route and add the Blacksmith Weather Vane activation when you first reach Lorule (adds 6.5 seconds to his route) and then warp there before Swamp (would take 10 seconds off his route if we didn't get the text, but actually only removes 5 seconds.)

Personally, I'll keep on getting the 100 Rupee chest in Kakariko instead of the 50 one in Eastern Palace, because I've gotten used to having the Hookshot in House Of Gales. As for Lorule, I used to get 450 in Thieves Hideout (100 from miniboss, 200 from Master Ore path, 100+50 from chests) but watching other people play made me realise that the 150 from chests is pretty useless, since you'll most likely come by more than enough to make up for it. (Especially with Gemesaur King dropping a bunch) Heck, I even finished my run with 470 something rupees left at Yuganon hahaha.

As for those blue guys in Thieves, the first encounter is pretty damn annoying, but for that last one in the switches room, I go for the right one first, trap him in the top right corner just above the door, then wait like a second for the other one to get through the "passage" in the wall and trap him in the top left corner (where you would merge to get past the bars and reach the 3rd switch). I honestly don't know if it's faster or not, but at least I don't have to run after them, and I finish off the last one close to the door.

[kirbymastah]

Yeah in terms of rupee route in Lorule, you need 400 total. You get an easy 200 while getting thieves' hideout master ore, usually 100 from the miniboss fight in the same dungeon,and many, many in dark palace (also 35 easy ones in desert palace).

I guess having hookshot for gales is up to personal preference. Ultimately slower, but not by much, and really comes down to comfort I'm used to not having hookshot so I'll keep leaving it for Lorule.

So ultimately, we want to activate the weather vane by the blacksmith upon entering Lorule, then warp there before doing skull woods.

I think I'll start writing up a pastebin tonight with the route so far, of course updating it when appropriate. It'll be nice to have it documented somewhere? I can only imagine how annoying it'd be since bits and pieces are all over the forums... <_<

[RheaultWnage]

So ultimately, we want to activate the weather vane by the blacksmith upon entering Lorule, then warp there before doing skull woods.

Hum I'm not sure I get you there. Why would you warp to the blacksmith before doing Skull Woods? As of now, you complete Thieves, walk to Vacant House, activate that Vane, use the portal to Hyrule, rent the items, Warp to Kakariko and use the portal to Lorule behind Sahasrahla's.

If you meant before Swamp Palace, then not activating Blacksmith's and using Vacant House's is still faster.

So no, we currently shouldn't activate the blacksmith's vane. That is, unless we end up modifying some other stuff in the route, then we would have to reconsider.

[Bamboocha]

What I do is get Hookshot early and buy the other items after thieve's. I don't really get hookshot early because of small timesavers but mainly because I have the money for it. I feel like the safest/fastest rupee route is both 100 in eastern, 100 in Kakariko and get the rest from random and guaranteed drops. So far it has only been close 1 time but you can always just kill 2 of the 20 rupee guys near vacant house before paying for the bomb flower if you don't have enough.

[kirbymastah]

Hum I'm not sure I get you there. Why would you warp to the blacksmith before doing Skull Woods? As of now, you complete Thieves, walk to Vacant House, activate that Vane, use the portal to Hyrule, rent the items, Warp to Kakariko and use the portal to Lorule behind Sahasrahla's.

If you meant before Swamp Palace, then not activating Blacksmith's and using Vacant House's is still faster.

So no, we currently shouldn't activate the blacksmith's vane. That is, unless we end up modifying some other stuff in the route, then we would have to reconsider.

Yeah I meant swamp palace <_< my bad

[Anwonu]

Here's my route in case someone's interested. http://pastebin.com/GuDhad4M
Not detailed, covers mostly important items and rupees.
One thing I'm not sure yet is if I activate vacant house vane before or after swamp. Before has the troll enemy on ramp; after has the take a break message.

About ToH first: from what I understand, the route is something like (after getting smooth gem):
-go to Rosso, get power gloves
-go to Death Mountain, activate vane
-fly to house, rent items
-go southwest, get pouch
-fly back to death mountain, go to ToH, beat it
-fly to witch's house, get flippers
-fly to house, go to HoG, beat it

HoG first (my route, at least):
-go south, get pouch
-fly to witch's house, get flippers
-fly to house, rent items
-go to HoG, beat it
-fly to kakariko, go to Rosso, get power gloves
-go to death mountain, activate vane
-keep going, beat ToH

From what I see, the differences are: route to pouch (from house is ~3s faster), to Rosso (1-2s difference? Instead of going from the shady guy, it's from the vane), the posssibility of breaking rocks on the way to ToH with hammer (a bit faster than lifting rocks in one place?) and 1 extra fly in ToH first route. Because of that extra fly, I believe HoG first is faster (a fly adds about 11s, the other differences doesn't seem to overcome that much). Or am I missing something else?

[kirbymastah]

That seems to make sense. Assuming your timing is accurate, cutting out an extra Irene flight shaves off quite a few seconds.



Now, I know I've mentioned this in your stream, but the questionable route is doing swamp palace so early. The main thing is, at least from watching your ALBW streams, you go out of your way for rupees pretty often (out of your way as in, treasure chests that are in the way... but they still cost time) since you need the 500 total rupees in Lorule a lot earlier (as opposed to doing swamp palace 2nd to last). Whereas if you do swamp palace 2nd to last (then turtle rock last), then you have plenty of time to get free rupees, primarily from desert palace and dark palace's boss.

Furthermore, lack of lvl 2 master sword loses time in swamp palace, though it's not as big of a deal as the rupee issue.

Finally, your skull woods 2nd route requires doing early hookshot, which loses a few seconds in the first Hyrule part of the game.

Also, is there any reason for doing desert palace so late?

[Anwonu]

All the points are what makes me think the route isn't the best; not only those, but the fact that the vacant house is so close to swamp makes the bomb flower path irrelevant (you'd use the path and activate it while bringing the bomb). Still, I have this route memorized now, and I want to improve it as much as I can so that we can compare later with other routes.

About desert, no reason to do it earlier, since it may make Irene talk more when warping. The main reason desert was done early was because of Titan's Mitts for swamp.

[RheaultWnage]

I always do the Swamp Palace after Thieves, and I never have problems with my Rupees actually. I even finish Thieves' with roughly 510-550 rupees.

Thing is, if you don't do Swamp as early, you can skip the 100 and 50 rupees chests in Thieves, and instead gather those rupees along the way (from Gemesaur, on the ground in Desert Palace, etc.)

The difference between Anwonu's Lorule route and any other route seems like it would be really hard to time. I might give it some thoughts in the next few days, see if I can figure something out.

[Anwonu]

OK, so, I tried a thieves-skull-ice route, to see how far it would be from my PB.
Here's the route: http://pastebin.com/Ede39Liz
The video: http://www.twitch.tv/anwonu/c/3503311
tl;dr: no hookshot early; thieves, skull, ice, desert, dark, swamp, turtle.

Besides the huge mistake (got wrong exit in lost woods, wasn't paying attention >_>), all the other mistakes were pretty much on par with my PB, I think. The lost woods derp wasted about 50s, which totally cancels with the extra time at the end.
If anyone is willing to check this and my PB to check where I lose time and give an idea of which route is better, good luck =p
For now, I'd say both routes are close, surprisingly.

Edit: ah yes, I forgot to ask something that I actually wasn't sure: is the vacant house vane activated after thieves, like I did? I didn't see any other chance to do that.
Edit2: maybe comparing isn't that bad if someone's willing to time all my chokes =p; I don't remember how manu chokes my PB has. My memory is horrible, even forgot how derpy my eastern was in this run =p


Unrelated edit: someone who does/did ToH first: when you activate the vane in death mountain, do you get the "take a break" message? If not, then I guess that's one more plus to ToH first, making both routes closer. (Even if you receive later, I believe it's the only time you get it; in HoG first, you get the message twice over the run.)

[RheaultWnage]

Unrelated edit: someone who does/did ToH first: when you activate the vane in death mountain, do you get the "take a break" message? If not, then I guess that's one more plus to ToH first, making both routes closer. (Even if you receive later, I believe it's the only time you get it; in HoG first, you get the message twice over the run.)

If you do ToH first you don't get the long text in Death Mountain, and you get it at Vacant House.

If you do HoG first, you get the long text in Death Mountain. Then, you don't get it at Vacant if 1. you activate it when renting items between Thieves and Skulls or 2. you activate while bringing the big bomb between Thieves and Swamp. You do get it if you activate it after finishing Swamp (as 2nd palace in Lorule).

[Anwonu]

Hm, true, you only get once unless you use my route and activate after swamp. So ToH first loses that advantage, I guess.

[ExtraTricky]

A good number of the active runners saw my recent run where I used a new route. The dungeon order is Thieves Skull Swamp Dark Turtle Desert Ice. You take the bomb flower immediately after Thieves and hit the Vacant House weathervane during that sequence. The other big idea here is that Desert -> Ice saves a fly because you spawn right next to a portal after Desert. The existing routes save this fly by doing Ice immediately after upgrading, since you're at Hyrule blacksmith, but this provides an alternative for people who aren't confident with doing Ice with green mail. Additionally, since you do Ice last and with blue mail (if you're skipping blue mail then swamp third doesn't make sense), it's more likely that you can forgo the fairy fountain entirely, which is quite a large advantage. Dark and Turtle can be done in either order -- I didn't see any advantage either way.

[Koizata]

Additionally, since you do Ice last and with blue mail (if you're skipping blue mail then swamp third doesn't make sense), it's more likely that you can forgo the fairy fountain entirely, which is quite a large advantage. Dark and Turtle can be done in either order -- I didn't see any advantage either way.

tbh i havent seen anyone do swamp third if they want to do it early its best they do it 2nd. If they are doing 3rd Ice than doing swamp last or second to last would be the better choice