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So, lets talk about super jumping. First and foremost, I can't stand the name shaq jumping, not bashing whoever named this, just my personal opinion is all. So for the rest of this post I'll just refer to it super jumping for my own personal preference

For me this has always been an interesting topic. I just love the way it looks, so I'll be pretty transparent about how biased I am. My question to everybody is, is there anything inherently illegal about doing a super jump itself? Or does the legality lie in the application of the jump. I get if you were to use a jump to go super out of bounds and off the map (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_HRYR_pp8s) that this is obviously illegal. But if you were to do a super jump off a wall and land in the same room, would this still be considered illegal? To me I think not, although I could very well be wrong.

As far as super jump mechanics go, in my eyes all you're doing is abusing the games code to create a point to jump where you'd normally not be able to, much like rooster skip. You jump into a wall in a way that you hit the trigger to jump off a ledge without being on the right side of the ledge. And since you hit this trigger in the middle of a jump, the game thinks you're jumping off the ledge while jumping and fires you into the air in this crazy trajectory. So even though you're jumping from the ground, the game fires you in the same trajectory as a mid air ledge jump, hence the super jump-esq look.

Okay so at this point if you disagree with me and think super jumping by itself is a completely illegal move, which is totally fine, you can probably stop reading here. Otherwise I'll assume you're at least somewhat on board and start talking about potential in bounds uses for this trick. Being able to do a super jump to bypass obstacles could have a really interesting impact on the current route. In addition to some of Emuras more realistic (not obviously OoB) examples, myself and Zorlax found some rather interesting jumps (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kETxUMkBqII) that to me stay completely in bounds, and hence would be legal by our current ruleset.

I'd love to hear any feedback, positive or negative.

I think most uses of super jumping would be considered oob, since usually you use it to jump over (clip through?) solid walls. The super jump itself wouldn't be illegal, though most applications would be. That said, I'm intrigued by the idea of a category which would allow some of the applications of the super jump.

1. Yeah, Shaq Jumping has always felt like a casual reference name for a trick that's yet to have a formal name made.

2. I'd love to see this in any of the runs, whether the currently existing categories or a new one to be made if it's decided to be OoB

always been super intrigued by this specific trick as it's not used in any runs currently which feels like a waste of a really cool trick

Flynn found like.. all of those.


HOWEVER, I think I found the most important use of the Super Jump:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSzx_OlwYps

I think these should be allowed.  I for one think that Shaq Jumping is only really OOB when the destination you are getting to is technically not in the boundary which the game intends.  In all of these cases, you are allowed to walk in EVERY one of those places.  For some, you are jumping over very small barriers that look to be about the same as wall clip sizes.

In most cases these jumps are used to go onto ceilings or wall tiles that allow scrolling of the screen and traversing dungeons/caves in different then intended order.  I think with the ones that keep you within the same screen and bypass certain clippable objects... seems fine to me.  If you watch the jump it never looks like Link goes out of bounds at all, there is no sticking, etc.  We abuse the hookshot for its special ability of 1 frame of "ground"... in theory when we haven't fallen using the hookshot we are standing on ground that doesn't even exist.  All of these cases look to be standing and jumping to places that are easily walkable in normal gameplay.

I think an OOB jump is more based on the intention and the destination, rather then the jump itself.  I think I'll defer to how Tompa is categorizing stuff for the TAS and how those OOBs are being handled.
-Bass

I might be wrong but Villa skip looks a lot like those jumps, you're just jumping over solid objects... Should we allow Super Jumping? Forbid Villa Skip? But I agree with you, Flynn, some of the jumps you showed are definitely not OoBs (Dodongos skip) and I don't see any reason to ban them but the fact of scaring new people.

Also these jumps seem like they could be done everywhere in the game (too much?) or can you only do them in underworlds ?

Villa Skip's mechanics are the same as jumping from cliffs on Toronbo Shores as you go to the sword. If I recall, the game sets this byte to 0x01 during these conditions: $C10A That address I pulled from my memory so it might not actually be correct, but if it is then you should see it switch from 0x00 to 0x01 during the jumps. This is what lets you walk through objects that are otherwise solid. If you were to freeze the value of that address to 0x01 (or anything non-zero iirc) then you will just walk through walls and collision data (I forget where the address is, but it gets corrupted by Doghouse which is why I know it exists) means nothing for the tiles. You can still take damage though and I think some other effects apply, since you can still fall in holes.

I haven't checked, but my assumption is that for Super Jumping the mechanic is the same. The mechanic itself is not what we should argue about whether it is allowed in the current ruleset, since the mechanic is inherent in what we have deemed to be normal gameplay (Toronbo Shores), but instead we need to look at the application of this mechanic and what it is trying to accomplish. We already have an arbitrary definition of Out of Bounds that likely will remain arbitrary, but we have a new definition for Wrong Warp that was put forth by Tompa for his TAS work.

I think somebody needs to break the ice and do a full No Wrong Warp run featuring all the Super Jumps one can find and see how it feels. That or a "realistic" TAS where movement is human-like (no U+D/L+R) just so we can get a sense of what the route would be. I think nobody is able to come to a conclusion because nobody has seen it yet.

I feel like the majority of the super jumps shown on video are in bounds, at least by the definition of "not clipping further into an object than a wall clip can". My say is that this trick is only oob if you use it as one, For example jumping onto a ceiling and going into a different dungeon from there. Of course Seeing a "No Wrong Warp" run would help solidify the legitimacy of this trick being in bounds. But as far as I am concerned, if you aren't jumping on ceilings or clipping INTO something, (not through/past) then this trick should be allowed in No OOB gameplay. but of course that's only my opinion. :)

I really like those jumps, that could make a really interesting run. I think Ill try to route a AllInstruments NoWW run this evening. Dont know if Ill stream though, because i had some big lag issues with that lately.
 Im thinking to also include things like D5/D6 Boss Key skip (walking over screen boundaries with shaq jump). Because I dont think its worth it to make a new category just for non OoB shaq jumps (we could include them in the main category though), because they just make some dungeons a bit faster and dont break the game too much.

D5 boss key skip allows to beat D5 before D4 (with jesus walking, Emuraloz has a Video of that), wich would allow to beat D4 in one sitting brcause the ghost wont appear then (?).
Edit: dont know if we can exit D5 with jesus jumps though, D4 in two parts might better/faster and also less tedious than some tricky jesuswalks

EDIT2: No more Brrr-Text in D8!! Found a way to clip into the bottom wall below the boss room (lava jesus walk) and super jump to the boss door from there. http://www.twitch.tv/surrealguy/c/6258878 (happens at around 3:20)
(Save&Quit after FireRod and get Nightmare Key the normal way is much likely faster (thanks Flynn))


EDIT3: Okay, did some testing and timing today and ill write down the current route for D8 (wanted to stream and do a quick tutorial/guide, but stream lagged like hell again). Anyways here's the route.
- Enter D8 (Boots+ Ocarina), dash up, equip Feather and sword in the room above the entrance during the dash.
- Push the moving platform straight up and do a superjump above the blocks in the room, where youd normally do the sideways block push (the sideways block push strat takes roughly the same amount of time if you get the block push really quick and do the dashjump; the superjump strat is much more consistent in terms of speed imo), BA the north wall, then the left wall
- Arrow the statue, get key and get the key in the room left off of that
- go back into the dark room, kill the 2 snakes and the peahat (you have to wait a peahat cycle, theres no way around that), go right and superjump to the key block (you can also superjump with shooting an arrow (much like the superjump in D7 with the firerod) so that could possibly save an equip)
- do the 2D section and do two superjumps to the firerod and S&Q (S&Qing is roughly 10secs faster than walking to the Nightmare Key)
- equip Feather + FireRod and get Nightmares Key the normal way
- Now, don't S&Q, walk down, right, right and do a diagonal jump into the lava in the bottom-right corner in the room with the vire and the 2 snakes, pause buffer to jesuswalk (equip firerod + feather during pause buffering)
- now youre wallclipped in the room below the bossroom and able to superjump (with the firerod) to the bossdoor (your y-axis doesnt matter too much when you jesus walk, as long as youre not too far up, you'll always be wallclipped, also buffer the jump button (no directional input) during screen transition to not fall in the lava)

If you dont like this jump and you feel really comfortable with getting Brr-less, you can also get to the bossdoor the "normal way", however this trick should be at least 5secs faster, if you do it fast and correctly. Also another thing to note: you can get the arrows in the room below the boss if you need them; also makes the respawn faster if you fall in the lava. Ill try to make a good video of this dungeon in the next days.

I've routed this category prior to the new super jump method: http://pastebin.com/SUdcs0hR (http://pastebin.com/SUdcs0hR); as well as recorded a run: http://www.twitch.tv/rapid_f/c/5367529 (http://www.twitch.tv/rapid_f/c/5367529). Keep in mind: routing this category will be hard because you can OoB to lv2+lv3+lv4+lv5 from lv1 (this is done in the room below the feather chest room). Likewise, you can probably get to lv6+lv7+lv8+egg(?) from lv6 but I don't know what room this could possibly be achieved (and haven't checked).

I agree with Riddler's post, I think it should be allowed in No Sqwwoob as long as the jumps are in bounds. But still, I love the category like it is now, not gonna lie.

Even if a lot of people love a category as it is set, I don't think it is a good reason to prevent the speedrun of a game to evolve.

We should decide, what is considered an OoB.
Is just jumping over a solid block (f.e. like the superjump in D7 in the 4th Pillar room) considered inbounds just because you land on a piece of ground you are able (and intended) to walk on? What about walking on ceilings (f.e. the old walrus skip method)? The game doesn't intend that you walk on there, but those are tiles that you can walk on (traveling to another screen/cave from there would be considered a WW imo).
Then there are superjumps which make you stand on cliffs (or other solid objects) ( f.e http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqZC3yZJPkQ ). If we consider standing on a bush (when falling in a hole in the villa maze) an OoB, then this third instance of superjumps is clearly an OoB too.
(And what about walrus skip then? :-X)

I'd love to see this category evolve, as much as i like the current route. I still consider creating a glitchless route (maybe like any% before villa skip was found?)

Seems like every time something new is found, we need to decide whether it's OoB or not. We have different opinions on this because OoB still isn't clearly defined... I'm liking the term less and less.

If we want to stick strictly with "not allowed to clip more than 3 pixels into a solid object", I guess you can argue that you can jump over a solid wall and land past it without being in the state of being clipped into it. But to me this seems... kinda dumb. It seems like if you tried to do the jump in the dream shrine, you'd land more than 3 pixels into the wall. That seems like it'd be a silly reason to disallow that jump in particular. Or, as I suggested earlier, we could say that jumping over walls counts as clipping through them, so, disallowed.

Honestly, the fact that this is open to interpretation at all bugs me.

So, I love these super jumps. I think they should definitely be added to the run, and almost all of those in that video are fine. The only one I have issues with is the one in d8 to get the firerod. I feel like you need to hit the crystal switch to lower those blocks, otherwise in my opinion you're OoB. Even though you CAN stand on those TYPES of blocks normally if you're near a crystal switch, there is NO other way to stand on THOSE specific ones while they're up unless you do this glitch. To me, that alone makes it OoB. If you hit the crystal switch, it'd be a nice way to skip Blaino still though, so that would be a fine use of it.

To me, OoB is clear as day. It's standing INSIDE a space on the screen that you can't normally stand in without doing that certain glitch(This doesn't include wall clipping as wall clipping is just a by product of walking, but does include being pushed into blocks or walls, etc.). Jumping over, of falling over top of it is fine, because you are not standing on that spot, or walking through that spot. 

I agree with Drenn, we have to have a concrete definition and examples of what is and isn't an out of bounds manoeuvre before continuing with rule discussion, in my opinion.

Clearly a wall clip (achieved by moving 3 pixels into a solid tile's outer edge) isn't an OoB.

I think we've all agreed when it was brought up again that the Richard Skip sequence isn't either, as by the game's logic you're simply jumping over a cliff and not actually clipping into or through objects. In that case, isn't the core principle of how Super Jumps work the same in this regard?

How about the clip into Turtle Rock?


How do we want to define OoB? Would (should) the current super jumps be considered OoB? I know there has been a lot of interest in Tompa's definition (and personally I like it a lot) of OoB being any manoeuvre that let's you travel from dungeons or cave systems that aren't meant to be connected (no going from d4->5, or going from tal tal heights cave right below Rooster Skip to the one above it, for example). This would keep much of the current main category the same, only changing strats and movements on a segmented basis, but not altering the route as a whole.

Maybe could open some interest in a no major glitches category or something similar, too :D  (would own to do Kamelot Castle again)

EDIT: There's also the potential of using Tompa's ruleset to differentiate two tiers or layers of 'oob' (pending a better name). The distinction being whether the trick transitions you to a dungeon or cave network that isn't supposed to be connected.

The super jumping mechanics aren't quite the same as how villa skip works, though it's similar in that you're kind of... falling past the wall in question. Due to the nature of the super jump, though, there's no reason you can't land directly inside of a solid wall. In fact, a lot of the applications of the super jump work this way. In a lot of the applications in emura's video he screen transitions immediately afterwards, but still, I find it hard to justify being inside of a solid wall in a "no oob" category. At least, you are clipped more than 3 pixels into a wall in these cases.

I think the turtle rock clip is okay, because the turtle's hitbox doesn't actually extend upwards. It's the same as wall clipping past the flowers in goponga.

Btw, tompa didn't use the term OoB at all, he just called it wrong warping. As for how to define OoB, I still haven't seen a half-decent definition outside of "not allowed to clip more than 3 pixels into a wall". :P

Edit: looking over emura's video...
- d4 boss key, you land inside of a solid wall then screen transition down, triggering a falling state like in villa skip. It's the part where he lands in a solid wall which I find iffy.
- d5 boss key skip, you land inside of a solid wall, then screen transition
- d6 skips, in the first one you just land on a raised platform so probably okay... in the second, third and fourth ones, again, you land inside a solid wall

As cool as these are, I feel like you'd need a weird definition of OoB to accomodate for them. But correct me if I'm wrong. :P

After trying a few of these out, the on in Ocarina Shrine, and D6 wouldn't be valid to me, as you land inside the wall, even though you can walk out, it is a WALL, and therefore I would find that out of bounds sadly, on top of my earlier thoughts on the one in D8 with the blocks still up from the crystal switch.

Going with your thoughts on that video drenn, the first one in d6 I would say is OoB as well, since there's no possible way to get on top of those raise platforms without this trick. No crystal switch around, and no way to fall on top of them through a pit else where in the dungeon.

There are still a few cool useful ones from Flynns video, like the D3 Dodongo skip, Getting the D8 boss key quickly, and skipping blaino(as long as you've lowered the blocks with the crystal switch) and the one that will let you skip the hookshot jump in D7. They all seem to land in clips, or sometimes not even clipped.

But yea, for out of bounds, to me it's still, not being inside of a wall, or space more than a 3 pixel clip  that you can't get in without a glitch or trick.

Okay so we may have been talking about slightly different things, the applications in flynn's video mostly don't land inside solid walls. Though it still seems iffy in some cases, like for the jump in d3, it could be easy to land more than 3 pixels into the left wall without realizing it. Like with the dream shrine, this just feels like a weird situation. This was kinda the reason why my first thought was to say, doing these shaq jumps over walls counts as oob. But I think this can work even if it's a bit weird, and it seems like most people are in favor of this. Still, I dunno how we should deal with these cases.

I disagree about the raised platforms though, I don't think it makes a difference whether or not you're supposed to be able to get up there - it's walkable terrain.

Yes, but when you're inside of a wall, you can "walk" out of it, therefore it is walkable terrain, so again, I have to disagree. You have more movement on top of it, but you can still walk while inside some walls that you get pushed inside or whatever. There's no way to get up there without this trick, so using that logic, this would also make the original "Shaq jump" to skip walrus allowable, because that ceiling is walkable, and you're not even going inside a wall, just doing a super jump up to it, so I don't like that mind set for any definition towards this rule set.

Walls aren't walkable terrain, it's just that if you're clipped into them, you have a bit of leeway to move towards walkable terrain. On top of the platforms, you have a full range of movement, so it's walkable terrain. That's how I see it anyway.

Interesting point here: would the shaq jump to reach dungeon 4 faster be allowed? I wasn't thinking of it in the same terms as you seem to be. The ceiling is walkable terrain, but then doing a screen transition to do the other method of walrus skip can fall into the domain of "wrong warp". However I can also see the argument that the ceiling of the cave is out of bounds, in fact I think that's how it's been considered so far. Only thing is, it's not an exact perfect fit with the "clipping 3 pixels into a wall" definition which I think makes the most sense :P

So I guess an alternative is something like "not allowed to stand on a tile which can't be reached without the use of glitches" as you suggested...

Yea, I feel like that ceiling is out of bounds. This is why I like the idea of out of bounds being you 'can't walk on any area that you can't normally walk on without the trick that's required to get there'; excluding the 3 pixel clip. This covers being in wall, going in the ceiling, going more than 3 pixels inside of a wall.

Walking on ceiling could count to OoB. But technically it is exactly the same as the superjump in Dream shrine or the early Big Key in D6. So I dont know how we should decide this. We should check what uses walking on ceiling has without screen transitioning from there (thatd most likely be a Wrong Warp).( Of course we can argue that the game didnt intend us to walk on a ceiling)

Does anyone know how the japanese community deals with superjumps and the OoB issue?

I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure they ban version specific tricks and this trick is 1.0 only I believe?
EDIT: here she is: http://forums.zeldaspeedruns.com/index.php?topic=1804.msg29565#msg29565 (http://forums.zeldaspeedruns.com/index.php?topic=1804.msg29565#msg29565)

I took a glance at the thread where the last rule change occured, and saw this:

Certainly seems like super jumping would be covered by that, but then again, we do seem to be on the verge of a ruleset change. Also this definitely was not expressed in the rules on the leaderboards... everywhere you look, oob has a different definition :P

I still, personally, feel like the super jump shouldn't be an allowed technique in the main category, but I don't care terribly much because I'm more interested in an OoB category which will probably exist soon. So if people want to allow these tricks in the main category, let's try to formalize this.



No Wrong Warping:
- Do not use glitches which manipulate screen transitions such that link spawns in the wrong destination.
- Do not transition directly between any 2 dungeons or cave systems that should not be connected on the map. (This may be redundant for the main category, but I'm trying to set up for a plain old "no wrong warp" category as well.)

- Glitches banned by this: screenwarping in LA, doghouse glitch, fisherman glitch, miniboss warps (such as d7 -> d8), going from one cave system to another.
- Maybe we can replace the first point just by a list of glitches which are banned, instead of using messy words. :P

No Out of Bounds:
- Link may not stand inside of a tile which cannot be reached without the use of glitches. In the case of wall tiles, this means that he may not be clipped more than 3 pixels into the tile in question (so wall clipping is allowed).

If we were to ban super jumping, that definition might instead look something like:
- Link may not jump over solid objects, or clip into them by more than 3 pixels.

^ This is going with the approach of banning any kind of movement through solid walls. So, there should be no way to reach other tiles which might be considered oob, such as the ceilings in caves. Villa skip is still weird in this case, but we can still argue that it's just using the falling down from a cliff mechanic, which naturally can't be banned...



Okay so that's my attempt at formalizing the rules in a way which could allow super jumping (and allows for a new "no WW" category). Lemme know how you feel about this, if it's completely wrong or if it just needs some rewording. I think we all want to sort this out as soon as we can.

I don't really agree with this rule set, it ruins the no ww run that we have currently and seems to disregard that the transitioning from one dungeon to another via oob is both interesting and has actual uses. To fix this we might as well make doghouse its own separate thing entirely so there can be a run that doesn't use doghouse but oob and ww(your definition) to beat the game.

Also, to be honest this sort of thing wouldn't be an issue if everybody ran on console because there would be the poor sap that says "oh man guys, I have 1.1 and I can't do these things :( ." In fact, why not just have categories that are bound to the game's versions rather than a "universal" ruleset? Or(if you don't like that) run all instruments no ww(current ruleset) and stop this madness of redefining something that will have to be(or considered to be) changed when something new is found(as that seems to be happening lately).

I like your summary and way of defining the different stuff, Drenn. The one thing I can think of being an issue in the future is possibly splitting up, by definition, a super jump that isn't OoB and one that is. As I could see people in the future possibly wanting to try runs out that allowed for all super jumps, but disallowing what we refer to as Wrong Warps.

Made some vids of DX

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORD4rUIRxeQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dr5x0bAH0XU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQ087-GuCIQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHmTHsnzA9k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGC1q2Q-beE

The main one under contention is the d6 one that it may have you landing inside the border of the platform and thus constitute an OoB.

I really like the idea of making a different between the super jumps as WW/No WW...instead of labeling them out of bound because there are ones that land you barley inside the wall, but should probably be in a run, like the D6 one, and the Ocarina Shrine one...More so have WW's be doing an unintended transition, and transitions not done through door ways, so those game breaking Super Jumps that just go through walls to transition to another screen wouldn't be allowed, but ones that just bypass obstacles or whatever on that screen are fine.

So I guess Drenn's definition of No Wrong Warping is really what I'd want. Though I dunno if that includes not allowing the game breaking ones where you can used super jumps to walk through walls to screen transition, cause they really destroy some of the dungeons. The ones in Leon's videos all seem like ones I would want in the run.

As for the old "no ww" category, I see no reason it can't be renamed to "no doghouse glitch". So yes, make doghouse its own thing. I mean it may be lumped into the "wrong warp" definition, but there's no reason we can't use it by itself for another category, I think.

I'm not entirely sure what your point here is with version differences, typically the standard way to deal with that is just using the fastest version, even if one poor guy has v1.1...

As for OoB being constantly redefined, well, I certainly don't like the approach of leaving it as some kind of undefinable "thing" - as it seems to be at the moment. As for the current situation, if super jumping is to be allowed, some redefining and re-examination is necessary in order to separate those which result in "OoB" from those which do not. I don't really see any way around this, but that's not to say my attempted definition is the best solution.

I'd be happy enough, though, if we could ditch the term OoB entirely :P

You mean, just plain old "no wrong warping", ignoring the oob part... I think those particular transitions would be allowed with that definition. But I think there's a lot we can do in terms of saying what kinds of screen transitions are allowed or not. We could try something like "not allowed to do a screen transition between any 2 spots that shouldn't be connected". However if we did that, villa skip would pretty much be gone... it would solve the problem of the more game-breaking super jumps though.

That's along the lines that I was thinking. I came to the same realization for villa skip. I dunno if there's a way around that..the only thing I can think of it that it's not walking in a wall at all, which more so lends it self to the OoB rule...I'd love to find a way to do it without getting rid of villa skip, just so it doesn't screw over normal runs..Argh, run rule definitions are a pain @.@

Okay so I'm going to try to define something new, I am sorry if my English is too poor for that kind of thing. Anyway:

What does (should) mean an Out of Bound in this game? Standing or walking on pixels we should not be able to reach within the intended restrictions of the game. This game allows us to walk in certain solid objects by three pixels or less, and this annoys us because of new tricks found, aka Walrus skip, Super Jumping. It even gives us troubles about the Villa Skip. Also, a lot of people want to change the term/principle of OoBs.

I might be completely wrong, but this (http://i.imgur.com/Webe2s4.jpg), even if Link stands in a wall by more than three pixels let me think about something: should we really turn a run down because of this?

That's why I suggest to replace Out of Bounds by something like Out of Area (yeah I know it's pretty much the same word).

What would be the restrictions of an OoA then ? Well, that would allow every movement possibility within a room by only considering the very walls, but without being able to go to another screen through walls, and consequently by walking on ceilings.

That would for instance allow the D6 Nightmare Key Super Jump but disallow the one to the Boss room. Here (http://i.imgur.com/fnyM2no.jpg) is an example. Red tiles being tiles through which you cannot screen transition. Also this would mean no old Marin Skip and no old Frog Song skip.

As far as I thought about it, that would allow most of the Super Jumps Flynn showed in his video, but disallow others like the fast D4 Nightmare Key showed in Emura's video.

If I'm completely out of it, well, just tell me  :P Also if someone likes the idea, any help would be great to redefine it correctly!

Much love <3

I do like that idea aullos. From the options presented so far I think that would work best for our purposes. I'm not entirely sure how to put this into words though, the image seems to describe the concept better. As I understand it, cave ceilings would be off-limits, which means we can't do the shaq jump to reach d4 faster?

Maybe something like "no out of area / out of bounds means you cannot clip past the outermost boundaries of any given room". I dunno, the image still describes the concept better.

The accompanying "no wrong warp" definition can be much the same as it is now - simply restricting doghouse, screenwarping, etc, without an additional restriction saying where you can or cannot screen transition.

This isn't a rules post (I'll make one in a bit) but I think I noticed something that allows the Super Jump to work and may narrow down figuring out the reason for why and how this glitch is caused? The one thing I have noticed is that of the three items that you're able to utilize this with (Sword, Magic Rod, Bow) they have the common trait in allowing link to change the direction he's facing while in a jump, which is something that with any other item, or without using any item, is disallowed. Something about this may mess with the collision detection of the game when in dungeon areas? I know people were into looking into why this only occurs in dungeons and cave networks and not in the overworld, so maybe this will help?

I'm bad a hunting and solving glitch things so if this is a dumb observation let me know.

Here's where I explain and demonstrate idk if this will be useful to anyone - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRUSVsW6a1E&feature=youtu.be

I really, really, really like Aullos' description and idea of OoB. Maybe add a caveat to better explain disallowing using OoB that let's you transition in to a screen from another that wasn't intended?

This is a really poor way to explain what I'm trying to describe, all I'm trying to say is I really like Aullos' definition.

EDIT: Anyway I was originally posting to say that I feel a more narrow definition of superjumps and where they lay might be deserved since I feel the trick is very, very versatile and needs to be defined in a way that isn't 'a super jump is a super jump.' The trick can be utilized to shave anywhere from over half an hour (the previous No WW category used by rapid and leafeonz) or likely around just a minute depending on the scope of your definition and usage and that a break up of different classes of definitions may be warranted here. That's just my thoughts, though.

Does the super jump not work in overworld areas? If this is the case, I think the reason would just be because of the types of tiles the game uses. Super jumping works when you do it off of a tile which you can jump down from. The overworld does have some tiles like this, but they work differently. They trigger a different kind of falling state, a la villa skip. So this is probably why it doesn't work in the overworld...

Upon further examination, though, I've found a place where it works in the overworld. That cliff near dungeon 3. It's the same kind of tile as is used in underground sections. It's just not used very often in the overworld.

I have to say caves give me a bit of trouble. I do hesitate between this (http://i.imgur.com/oOHmcul.jpg) and this (http://i.imgur.com/z0cV3jC.jpg).

I guess my first thought was "can't walk on ceilings" since in my opinion those walls are the "outermost boundaries".

What do you think about it ?

I'm completely fine with image 1 as running through my mind the cave systems in the game and ways the jump can be used I can't think of anything that would be an issue, since the main thing we have issues with would be using that super jump to transition while on top of the ceiling which you have covered. If it's being used merely as a way to bypass obstacles on that screen and then hop back down (without transitioning), I'm fine with it.

That's my take on it anyway, as I feel cave ceilings are a tricky area to decide on.

I think the second one makes more sense. I think the walls count as the outermost boundaries, even if they aren't very far out :) but then you don't have to use my wording. I understand that walking on cave ceilings may not be a big deal, as long as you don't transition afterwards, but the first image just feels like an arbitrary line to draw to me.

I intended more to clarify the idea of "don't go to another screen by there" than "you can't walk on these very tiles".

Okay, fair enough... In this case it starts to look like my previous idea for "no wrong warp" where you can't transition between 2 spots that shouldn't be connected. Not quite the same, however, because I think this way would allow villa skip... perhaps the wording would look something like "can't do a screen transition while outside of normal game boundaries". I still like the idea of image 2 better, but maybe that's just because I have a better grasp on what the rules would look like in that case.

Also I think I just realized how they patched super jumping. You know how you can jump down a cliff while in midair? They don't let you do that in v1.2. That's how they fixed it. Did they know? :O

Just to clarify the idea: click here (http://i.imgur.com/nFUWyKf.jpg).


I think the main difference is from the way of doing it. Your idea forbids screen transitions like the D8 to Egg one, as mine forbids the specific ones as in the picture or the Shaq Jump before Flame Fountain.

How's this for super jumping http://www.twitch.tv/drenn_thew/c/6364090

made a comparison vid of the ones people have found for DX that may or may not be ruled to be illegal.

https://youtu.be/Jcjw8YwWTIs

I find that this picture says "Let's bend the rules in this specific place because it'll be faster" I personally do not feel that superjumping onto the ceilings in caves should be allowed, as you stated "You cannot exit the bounds of the room you are in" as "OoA".

My opinion is that you should not be able to exit the main bounds of the screen (cannot go completely over walls that have no real ground on the adjacent side[like the one in d6]) This is a tricky subject to figure out and that's why we have to define OoB :p

http://i.imgur.com/fnyM2no.jpg

and

http://i.imgur.com/z0cV3jC.jpg

thy flynn has spoken

(maybe seabass will notice me now..?)

According to Flynn's picture of D6, that would allow another Superjump. I just made a quick video of that. This would save about 10-12 seconds over playing Mambo after getting the Nightmares Key.
http://www.twitch.tv/surrealguy/c/6366053
We would have to decide if youre allowed to stand in any wall. Because to me it would make no sense to allow the D6 jump i just posted, but youre not allowed to stand in a wall on the border of a screen (which would also allow the alternate Rooster skip method then).

Edit: Ok, you have to walk on the ceiling for alternate Rooster skip, which is another thing we have to decide.
Edit2: I should read more carefully.

Read my post on the first page of this topic, it might lead you to a solution.

I'm not a big fan of being able to stand in walls myself, but I'm open to any discussion about it.

Edit: To clarify my position I really like what aullos is proposing, and for the most part it lines up really well with what my idea of OoB is.

Also consider that my definition would definitely allow Walrus Skip for the main category.

Yeah this sums up how I view it. D4 early is neat (and old) but idk about walking on dungeon/cave ceilings.

I think it's okay ? I mean, even if you can walk through walls, you can't go to another screen through them and I don't know if it would be worth to get the glitch for that (maybe someone should try to make a route?)

FYI this can also be done in d4 and d8 (swimming in lava). It can also be done in certain caves without wall clipping, but it's inconsistent. I dunno... I really think this is just too powerful to allow, even if we have all these other restrictions in place. It's just really silly.

And for the record, I agree with flynn and everyone else, about the boundaries restricting cave ceilings, I think this makes the most sense.

As for walrus skip. Yes aullos's rules totally allows for it. If there's still going to be any debate over whether it should be allowed, it should be on the basis of banning deloading, instead of trying to warp the OoB definition to say that walrus skip isn't allowed. Not that I personally think we should ban deloading.

I agree with both these images.  Ship it boys.

If anyone has any specific jumps that they've found and are not sure if they would be legal by this new ruleset feel free to post them here. Even if we have to rule on these one by one it wouldn't take too long till we have a very concrete list of what is allowed and what is not.

I have to say tho, I'm liking the direction this is going. I feel these are really interesting additions to the route. It's been a really long time since ive been excited to watch a dx run, but im real pumped to see what happens in the next week or so.

Forgive me in advance for the length of this post, but I will try and explain how I think the rules should be laid out to allow/disallow what we want.
Sorry in advance for the complexity of this post, I blame my math/programmer/proof background, also I apologize for my lame MS Paint Skillz.

I am also going to explain how the game is programmed in terms of tiles, so that could be VERY confusing to some people.  If you want to get right to the "rules" skip down to the big RULES ARE HERE section ;)

*clears throat* Ahem *clears throat*

First I will start by defining "tiles".  Tiles are the basic level building mechanic in LA(dx).  Each screen is made up of a grid of tiles that is 10 across x 8 tall.  Take for example this room in dungeon 8 where one gets the fire rod,
(http://artemis251.fobby.net/zelda/maps/underworld2/0237.GIF)
If you break it up into a grid, think of it like a chess board (not square) with the bottom left corner being A1, bottom right corner J1, top left A8, top right J8.  You can also think of it like a plot on an X,Y graph if you want with tile (1,1) being in the bottom left, (10,1) bottom right, (10,8) top right, (1,8) top left.  I will be using the "graph" style notation since it's easier to deal with numbers then letters ;). 
(http://i.snag.gy/zGfWa.jpg)
 For a better grid look at how BGB splits it up when you view the VRAM, each 2x2 box counts as one "tile", but take note that this shows one extra row down to account for when the screen is transitioning.
(http://i.snag.gy/rPqqY.jpg)

(http://i.snag.gy/5rXrD.jpg)
The way the game is coded, looking in the debugger of an emulator you can see this grid laid out in RAM by looking in the rows/values of F700 through F790.  The grid is surrounded by "FF" which is the highest hex code value that can fit in those spaces (or what the developers used as a buffer).  Each tile is programmed/painted onto the screen using a corresponding hex code to determine the properties of that tile.  For instance in our D8 room, the walls/look/art/hit detection/interaction/everything is the same on the wall squares.  If we look at the very top row (row 8) we see the following tiles from left to right: C0, 25, 6 x 21's 26, C0 (10 across).  These hex codes map directly to a tile and how it works: Eyeball Statue, TopLeft Corner D8 Wall, Top D8 Wall x6, TopRight Corner D8 Wall, Eyeball Statue.  These values are used throughout the ENTIRE game because that is how the code is attached to them.  For instance look at the down stairs at (3,4) with a hex code of BE, in every location in the game a down stairs is represented in memory with that same BE code.  I could paste a bunch of screen shots showing this but that is crazy tedious so you just have to trust me on this one or check it out yourself :)

These codes are what give Link the ability to act within the tiles they represent.  Tiles that the game wants Link to move on have those properties.  Walls the game wants Link to not move through have that property.  Trees in the overworld... you get the idea.  The tiles in dungeons are special versus the ones in the overworld, which explains a bit why the super jumps work in dungeons and not in overworld (most of the time ;)). 

In our D8 example look at the walls that act as "northern" walls represented by "21" in the hex code, you see them at the top row 8, you see some of them in row 5, some in row 2.  Since the game is built in dungeons so that these walls can normally be "hopped down" the programmers re use the coding for the high walls the same as low walls, so the wall at (2,2) (3,2) has the same properties as (2,5) through (5,5).  The programmers wanted Link to be able to drop down those ledges to make it to the lower sections.  This allows super jumps off the top most wall in row 8 because the programmers lazily used the same wall code (for look and feel and ease of coding) with the same hex value as the walls in row 2 and 5.  This is why Link can super jump off certain tiles.  In most dungeons the programmers used this same method since a lot of the dungeon puzzles involve dropping down to lower sections.  In the overworld they shut everything off a lot more by making it blocked off a lot better with more varying codes.

I could go into a lot more detail and proofing of this, but for now I'll get to the good part.  If anyone wants me to do a more legit and full breakdown of this I could gladly do a big pastebin/write up for all the tiles, properties, etc. with more examples.  Feel free to PM/message/skype/etc me with questions and clarifications on this.

RULES ARE HERE

Using the D8 grid as a quick example then I'll show other examples further down...
(http://i.snag.gy/zGfWa.jpg)

• Link is allowed to move within tiles that the game "normally" allows

  This means any normal tiles the game wants you to walk on (ground, stairs, ladders, orange crystal blocks) {(2,1) (3,1) (5,1) (7/8,1) (5,2) (7,2) (8,2) (9,2) (2,3) (3,3) (4,3) (8,3) (2,4) (3,4) (4,4) (5,4) (7,4) (8,4) (9,4) (7,5) (8,5) (9,5) (2,6) (3,6) (4,6) (5,6) (8,6) (3,7) (5,7) (6,7) (7,7) (8,7)}

• Link is allowed to move within tiles that are "+1/-1 Adjacent" in the X or Y direction away from "normal" tiles.

  This is the crux of the rule which allows super jumping.  This means any tile that is directly adjacent to a moveable "normal" can be walked in/on/through/etc.  In our D8 example it is easier to say what is not a "+1/-1 Adjacent" since a lot of tiles are.  The D8 room tiles that are NOT +1/-1 (or "normals"): (10,1) (1,2) (6,3) (10,3) (1,5) (10,6) (1,7) (10,7) (1,8) (2,8) (9,8) (10,8).
I'll so better examples below of this later.

• Link is not allowed to transition/move/exit screens while within a "+1/-1 Adjacent" tile.  Entering from one is OK!

  This makes it so tricks like super jumps cannot be abused to break caves, dungeons, and such wide open in terms of movement in weird ways.  This keeps all super jumps in check, and also allows for internal tile movement within a screen allowed by rules (Walrus Skip, Hookshot Damage boost throughs, etc.)


(http://artemis251.fobby.net/zelda/maps/underworld1/016D.GIF) (http://i.snag.gy/thulN.jpg)
Let's take a look at another example.  In Dungeon 4 we find this room.  Link can move around in this room at will on normal tiles and tiles outlined in blue, but not allowed to move on red tiles.  Link is not allowed to transition screens while within a blue tile.  This means if there was in theory a jump that allowed Link to move from the bottom section, jump over the gap of red, to the top with the stairs... Link could exit the room from the "normal" tiles in the top left NOT EXITING FROM A BLUE TILE.

 (http://artemis251.fobby.net/zelda/maps/overworld/0013.GIF) (http://i.snag.gy/TySjt.jpg) (http://artemis251.fobby.net/zelda/maps/overworld/0012.GIF)
I'll finish with one final example in the overworld, up near where Flame Skip occurs.  Again, "+1/-1 Adjacent" tiles are highlighted in blue and the non "+1/-1 Adjacent" tiles are highlighted in red.  The Yellow tiles are ones we normally don't walk to, but Link is allowed to move on them through the normal rules of the game.  If Link were to somehow make it to a yellow tile, Link would be allowed to exit this screen to the left through that small window (NOT EXITING FROM A BLUE TILE).  If Link manages to do this, the next screen over would boost him to the left and past the rock wall he normally could not pass similar to Villa Skip. This would be allowed, since the movement/exit/transition of the screen happened within a valid "normal" tile.  If Link were to exit the previous screen from an invalid tile, this move is illegal.  This still allows Villa Skip within this rule set, since Link can jump into the pit that is above the skip, which makes it a "normal" tile.  Link is transitioning from a tile that he can MOVE on.  I say MOVE here because it is important to note MOVING does not mean WALKING.  Link can jump to move in the Villa Skip example.

Enjoy  ;D
-amBASSador

Cool post bass. The one thing I'm not clear on is the yellow zone. So, we're allowed to walk on any tile which has walkable properties, even if it's normally inaccessible without some kind of glitch? To be clear, this would allow the super jump to reach d4 faster. I'm okay with that, just trying to make sure we're on the same page...

edit: actually, I don't see any reason you can't screen transition while in a cave ceiling with these rules, if they count as a "yellow" zone. So wouldn't this allow for old walrus skip?

Wait, so we'd be allowed to jump over these red tiles? For some reason I feel like that defeats the purpose of saying they're restricted. However, unless we allow that noclipping glitch, I don't see where this would be relevant, anyway.

I haven't thought about this a great deal yet, however... I feel like the routing would look pretty similar if we dropped the whole +1/-1 thing and allowed movement through whatever walls, the only restriction being "you can't transition while in a wall". Maybe I'm missing something though. Nvm cave ceilings

(http://i.snag.gy/cpfQe.jpg)

If you look at the D4 early cave it would be colored like this.  I am not familiar with the old early walrus skips, if you have a video I can look at it and see how my rule set would apply to it (or not).  The Yellow is basically a fancy way of bringing attention to areas for people for easy reference :).  In this above example, you could say Yellow is anything "normal" moveable, which would be everything NOT blue or red colored.  If you can post a video of old WS I can check it out and get back to you.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, why is the cave ceiling colored red while that area in the other image is colored yellow? What's the difference?

Can't find a video for old walrus skip atm, all I know is it's done by transitioning down on one of those 2 screens in the cave.

What do you mean by "normal"; do you mean what was and is intended by the developers, or what you defined as "normal" in your post regarding the rules? If it is the latter then it would be perfectly fine to walk around on those tiles as they are used in other caves.

Yea..I think "normal" should maybe be restricted to areas that are without glitches, and change the yellow example there to red. Just to make sense with stuff like cave ceilings, but that's just my opinion :P

Here is the old Walrus Skip done by Flynn: Link (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_HRYR_pp8s).

Also I think Bass' idea kinda describes mine, as the +1/-1 adjacent blocks are the boundaries of the "Area".

And I'm okay with the Flame Fountain Skip. I mean, maybe the yellow thing can be disturbing compared to ceilings, but let's just say ceilings are ceilings and normally unreachable walking tiles themselves.

I am ok with making the yellow in the previous post all red and off limits.  Either that or making the cave ceiling yellow as well.  As long as we are consistent.  I think the more important thing REGARDLESS of walking on cave ceilings or not, is the restriction to not transition/exit a screen from within a red area anyway.  We are at this point figuring out a small tweak to the rule, which is the argument of:

1. Allow Flame Skip Skip and D4 Early skip.
2. Don't allow either.

I think it is safe to say they are combined together at this point in terms of rules stuff.

I personally would not allow either. Although at the moment this is based on being against early d4. I havent put a ton of thought into it but instinctively i do not like flame skip 2.

Typing on a phone fucking sucks.

With this new ruling, would the new rooster skip be allowed? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqZC3yZJPkQ

I believe the last jump that lands link on the ceiling tile beside the cracked ground would render this trick illegal, but could be wrong and have not slept for a very long time so i will defer and wait for seabass.

I personally don't have a problem with walking on the ceiling in d4 or the alternate flame skip, aside from how we're going to word them in the rules. If you allow screen transitions in the "yellow" zone (flame skip), how will you prevent people from transitioning in cave ceilings (old walrus skip)? It would probably be easier to just mark them as red zones, in the interest of not complicating the definition further than it is already...

Yes, I would see it a good idea to mark the ceiling red as marking it yellow would bring controversy regarding all ceilings. However if we were to mark them yellow, we could say that Link cannot transition screens while within such zones which should allow for even more non game-breaking tricks(and a super RNG based walrus skip like before ;) )

So, without speaking for anyone but just seeing the progression of the thread and seeing discussions in skype and chats on this it seems fairly sure that way a large portion is leaning towards something resembling flynn/aullos/seabass' proposed rulesets. This would also very likely legalize Walrus Skip as OoB within screens wouldn't be a thing anymore and I do agree with Drenn in that if you want to argue towards outlawing it doing it on the basis of targeting the despawn glitch is the way to go from here on.

But the main thing I wanted to ask is given all these being allowed, does anyone feel at this point assuming SJs + WS are in, that a legacy category may be warranted? The current route with all of this is beginning to look very, very different from runs of the past even as recent as giuocob's 1:14:33. Is a split here justified? This would be the most significant change LADX has had in all all the time I've been playing, and I've been here for 1.5 years.

I wouldnt mind keeping the old route or the even older one with Kanalet Castle as a legacy% (and/or create a glitchless route).
For the new route, I would ditch the OoB term completely and just call it warpless% (like LA and allow everything that would be allowed in LA).
I think Leon said, that "OoB" on the screen itself doesnt matter anymore, so that would allow the alternate rooster skip, early D4 and the superjump that lands in a wall i found in D6.

My suggestion: Keep the old category and just make this one a bit more different/broken.

As much as I may or may not want a legacy%, I have no clue we can just create one like this. To me, a true "legacy" category would have Kanalet Castle.

Something.

If we used tompa's definition of wrong warp (no transition between one cave/dungeon to another cave/dungeon), we could just get rid of oob. the categories could look something like:

Nosqww: new category allowing super jumps, flameskip 2, new rooster skip, early d4, but ban old walrus skip.
Nosqwwoob: current category stays the same.
Any% No doghouse: what the current no ww route is.
Any%: unchanged


I agree.

To Quote Flynn:
I believe the last jump that lands link on the ceiling tile beside the cracked ground would render this trick illegal...


This is correct.  It is legal up until link jumps on the ceiling tile and moves around there.

I don't know how I feel about the idea of a Legacy% yet.  There is some merit the the run at this current state seems very "clean", but then again something about super jumps don't seem that "broken".  I think we go without Legacy% for now, as it will clearly split the community up a lot more then it already is based on the recent findings of Walrus Skip (new) and Super Jumps.  I think as a game we are progressing with finding new tricks and they are great.  I think this is what speedrunning should be, finding stuff, isolating it, perfecting it, using it to beat the game faster.  If we start splitting categories more, what category would the weekly races be?  Would most people start running the new rule set, or stick to Legacy% cus they are used to it?

The super jumps really don't break that much or shave off an insane amount of time.  I think they add a nice flair to the game that the main category has been almost lacking.  A lot of people have shown interest in the game because of these jumps and I think new tricks bring people in... they shouldn't scare people off.  Things change.  Games evolve.  Runs evolve.  People had to learn and adjust to stuff in the past and most of us were not here for the (I speak for a decent chunk of us who have joined within the past year or so).  Fast times are still fast without these skips.  Z's 109 is still insane skill, and even if I shave off a few minutes with SJs I am barely touching his time.  These are easy jumps, not RNG dependent, not crazy skill... just a nice new movement set that we are learning to adapt into the run.

I'll go back to what I have been saying: the jumps in their current rule set (no old walrus skip, no new rooster skip, no early d4) don't seem Out of Bounds using an old outdated term.  Bring in these super jumps, allow new walrus skip, call it Any % No SQ/WW/OoB, run the game, evolve, learn, chill, have fun.

-Bass

I'd actually love that definition of a legacy category even more. Rooster Skip, D4 sequence break maybe. No Richard Skip, bring back trade sequence. Maybe the old rule of no deaths (So buying the shovel?)

I've been wanting and privately planning on toying around with doing runs like this at some point for a while, which was what the route was when I first joined and I miss some of the things you did in it that simply aren't seen in any other run (Trade sequence, 'good' ending, Kamelot)

So how does this jump rank in the ruling of bass

(http://i.imgur.com/TTbXre6.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/vzaVo9o.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/figFz7k.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/QbVnxwZ.jpg)

Yeah I miss those times too, getting rupee chests and buying shovel after D2.

Also Kamelot is a very interesting part of the game speedrun wise.


I guess it's all good. The only bad tiles are the ones in the corners.

Made new video better in quality: https://www.youtube.com/watch?edit=vd&v=beMrJxAjr6I

did frame counts and posted my findings and logic here: http://pastebin.com/fPHYf2m3

Also some of the runners who haven't done them before have asked how to do them so here's what I know on how to make them work: https://youtu.be/WDImsV5kAdQ

So is super Jumping actually in the category now? or are we still waiting?

Found Some new stuff(not all sjs but i dont know where else to put them :P)

Faster D8 SJ: http://t.co/LlG1Ejoect

Faster D6 Entry: http://t.co/CDywz8QcF1 (using Drenn's Glitch)

New D4 Route: http://t.co/hJ4GkiYeaE (also using Drenn's Glitch)

I think we should maybe consider whether or not walk through walls/EG is allowed before finding uses for it(and possibly consider giving it an official name :p )
I vote for it being allowed as long as it doesn't cross red areas(if we use seabass's ruleset); this glitch is pretty much Link jumping for eternity until "landing" with the feather.

Yes, I agree, i only used it in places where it didnt break Bass's OOB rules, AND i think you also should not be allowed to transition through screens with it. because it can severely break the game that way

Yes disallowing transitions with it seems like a good idea.

Overworld SuperJumps: https://youtu.be/cvbyNo6fhM8

These are the only two i could find, i dont think i missed anything but if any more useful ones are found that'd be cool.

The faster D6 entry was genius, props to riddler/drenn.

I say these are legal in main category for now.  No Drenn jumps for now IMHO until we find more about them. 
Votes?  I want this to be a thing.

Let's fucking go.

Not sure how much more there is to discover about the noclipping thing. With the Bass ruleset you can skip a small key in d8, and you can get the d4 boss key faster. I'm still against allowing it.

Anyway I vote yes to allowing superjumps with the bass ruleset because we need to make a final decision already. :P

I formally vote yes for super jumps on the seabass ruleset and no on no clipping

votes yes

SJs sure, noclips sure; I dont really care, I just want categories to change.

Is it known that you can do super jumps off of walls without clipping in some areas?

It isn't consistent and I don't really understand why it sometimes works and sometimes doesn't.. but I made a quick vid to show:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTg0YUyOuPQ

It should be consistent as long as you do not walk diagonally(EmuraloZ says this in his video description), but wall clipping works regardless.

Yes, Greentunic. It can also be done without the sword. When doing it without a wall, it depends more on the subpixels, which basically means the timing is more precise for how long you should hold backwards and when you should move forwards.

Ah okay thanks for explaining Rapid and Tompa :)

I have looked at a few areas to try and make use of not having to be clipped but am yet to see anything that would save much time in a run.

We should finally settle this.
I'm saying yes to superjumps, no to the no clipping thing.
Although i'd love to see a run, where all of the new tech is allowed (walrus skip, SJs, walking on ceiling, no clipping etc as long as it doesnt wrong warp).

I've stated my opinion here, and based on things I've read, and my own opinions, I vote yes for super jumps, and no for 'no clip' glitch; as of right now at least.

I vote YES for SJ's, NO for no-clips.

Hi everyone

Sorry to disrupt the voting, but I'd like to add my thoughts based on my reading of the superjump and rule change threads. Since the most recent discussion is in here, this is where I'm posting. Sorry, this is a little long...

To me, there are 4 obvious rulesets for All Instruments (which this category should really be called):
1) Doghouse
2) Warps allowed (+ OoB + sq)
3) OoB allowed (+ sq)
4) Warpless (no OoB, no sq)

These names are familiar, but I dont think the current "main category" fits any of them.

1) Doghouse - This category allows you to enter a state where Link doesn't interact with the tiles/sprites/game in a normal way. This category already exists as "any% (all instruments)".
2) Warps + OoB - This category lets you warp between dungeons and between unconnected areas of caves. Essentially you can move around wherever you want by getting OoB, but can't enter the broken doghouse state. Rapid's 1:04 run fits into this category. I also think no-clip fits here, as it also lets you move freely, but in the overworld. Screen warping LA also goes here.
3) OoB - This category is based on Tompa's post on warping from the other thread. Going OoB (like on the ceiling in caves) is okay here as long as you stay within the set of screens you are supposed to travel through (i.e. no warping). Getting to D4 through the tunnel is okay here, as is rooster-skip skip using superjumps. This is where superjumps, villa skip, and mirror shield skip 2.0 belong.
4) Warpless (no sq) - Here, you can't go where you're not supposed to go. This category could also be called legacy or maybe glitchless, I guess. No superjumps, no jesus jumps, no villa skip. I think wall clipping is okay here so moblin skip, mirror shield skip, rooster skip, turtle rock skip, and sideways block pushing can stay. I actually hope that we add deathless to this ruleset as well (i.e. buy the shovel) for true legacy%.

I think these rules add some consistency and, IMHO, give a good place for the various tricks to go. The problem is that the current "main category" lives between rulesets 3 and 4 (well, essentially a legal, but very unoptimized ruleset 3). However, I think it would be easy for runners to add a few new techniques (including s+q) to move into ruleset 3, or to drop some skips and move into ruleset 4. Hopefully people will do both, since the bulk of the game is similar :)

P.S. Any% only gets rulesets 1-2, since if you're not warping or doghouse-ing, you have to get all instruments to enter the egg and beat the game... right?

P.P.S 100% warpless would be pretty long... 100% as it currently stands could easily move into ruleset 3 by adding the same OoB and superjumps as AI. 100% warps + OoB would be really fun to route/play. 100% doghouse would be awful to route/play...

I like this. However if we were to use this, noclip should be banned entirely; any run with noclip(warps + oob, the only category I'd care about :) ) allowed would be unfun to route/run(you'd just go to d4/d8 and get most of the instruments pretty much :/)

I couldn't agree more with Friedpotato. Very good post imho!  :)

Thanks, SurrealGuy!


I was thinking more about this, and I agree that no-clip doesn't belong in ruleset "(2) - Warps + OoB". I originally thought about a 5th ruleset between 1 and 2 for no-clip and screen warping, but I though having 5 would overdo it. To be completely honest, I know very little about screen warping in LA, so I just threw it in for completeness (sorry vanilla runners...).

So perhaps add rule: "(1.5) screen warps allowed - includes LA screen warp and LADX no-clip warping". I think both of these are similar in that they (kind of) allow you to ignore the in-game boundaries (walls) and roam free throughout the map. The rest of "(2) - warps + OoB" would be the same, but without these specific tricks.

I think that rulesets (1) and (1.5) would be relatively short runs, as you are not restricted by the game, and you would just run directly to all 8 instrument rooms and then the nightmares. I think these would be fun to route, but less fun to run. Rules (2)-(4) would be the most used, since you mostly have to obey in-game boundaries (i.e. can't walk through walls), and the only differences are restrictions on where you're allowed to go.

I agree with the crux of what you're conveying and feel and like your idea of reforming rule names, and that the ladx ruleset has needed a better laid out way of saying "here are the tiers of glitches available in LADX" to be easily and effectively conveyed into logical categories by allowing/disallowing a combination of those on a basis of runner appeal and interest (with any% obv being any% no holds barred, however with how fast DHG is is unlikely to be replaced), and I think in the last few weeks despite how painful it has been at some points for some in the rules talks we've taken better strides toward that.

But most of the rules discussion going on in these past few weeks (months now??) has been specifically around trying to define ruleset 3 as this is the one that most impacts the main category as people are trying to find how best to fit them into the main category, and most are falling in behind the Aullos/Seabass ruleset which is a more narrow variant of Tompa's.

I like your ruleset which is formatted pretty well and logically and largely is how I internalized my idea on what the ladx ruleset should look like. I agree with it that the current main category is in a weird spot between 3 and 4 however I think there might be room and desire for something in between as I think there is a pretty large gap between what you have proposed (S+Q allowed, transitioning anywhere using SJs as long as it's intra-dungeon and No deaths, no S+Q, no villa skip).

Going by your ruleset for example the current main category is No S+Q, No OoB, No Warps, No Dog House (as super jumps as they exist in current main route have been defined as not Out of Bounds), and I think the difference between this route, your proposed ruleset 3 route, and ruleset 4 route is larger and less redundant than you think

Right, my goal to was to make as simple of a ruleset as possible, while trying to make as many people happy as possible... It seemed to me like a lot of the discussion/argument was based around where super jumps are/should be allowed, and what constitutes out of bounds. That's why I tried to include more absolute statements like "super jump wherever you want in the area" or "never go OoB" into the rules.

I tried to make the categories more rigid regarding boundaries in the game itself*, and less about runners' preferences. If people don't like that approach, I'm totally okay with it. If the rules end up being "do the things everyone likes", it will probably just cause minor headaches every so often as the community evolves.


I'm certainly not an expert on the various routes in the game (I've only been running for a year), so I agree that the current route, rules 3, and rules 4 could be very different, which is good! I don't think people would run/enjoy different categories if they overlap too much. And I'm also okay with "mixing it up" a bit :)

Again, though I prefer rules in my previous post, if we end up hashing out a more specific set of rules regarding no OoB, specific super jumps, etc. to be used in a single "main category", that's also good. As long as it's written down somewhere for current and future runners.

* For Tompa's approach to warping, I initially thought it should be defined as stay within a given sub-map. That works for the dungeons mostly, but the caves could still easily be broken. That's why I phrased it more like: stay within the screens that you're supposed to be on for the section you're in.

Maybe I'm just slow, but this exact same discussion seemed to happen behind the scenes 1.5 years ago, and "many of us" decided super jumping was banned...


Based on this logic, I should just have defined my previous "ruleset 4" to be the same as the current category: Allow villa skip (since it's not technically OoB according to giu), and allow death to shopkeeper or death to refill hearts (just no death warping). Sorry, I just got too excited about warpless+deathless  :)...

I disagree with adding limited superjumps that don't drop you OoB, but let you go through OoB to get there (D6, D8 boss room, dream shrine).

TL;DR of my last 4 posts:
I vote no for super jumps. We should put them in the OoB (no ww) rules, and leave the current "any% (no oob, no ww, no s+q)" route as is.

I agree with friedpotato

This was back when around half a dozen people regularly ran, almost none of which currently do (I can't even think of any off hand who predate me at the moment). The entire reason this discussion was brought up again was due to constant friction over the old ruleset being ambiguous and seemingly contradictory or not laid out as well as it could have been.

Also again with how people feel about allowing 'limited SJs' by defining OoB under the 'bass ruleset it seems like people do find virtue and usefulness in a category that sits between your ruleset 3 and 4 (by your previous post) to serve as the 'main' one.

Given community desire to do it (going by the votes and general opinion I've felt from chats and what not) I see no reason this category shouldn't exist and that it doesn't feel particularly redundant.

I really, really like your breakdown of the 'tiers' of glitching though that could serve as easy logical points of rule categorizing.

Here is how I feel, defining 'warps' as Tompa's definition of an act that transfers you from one dungeon or cave system to another (D7 mini boss warp, jumping on top of tal tal heights ceiling and walking to wind fish boss, etc.), and defining "Out of Bounds" with the ruleset that seabass has cooked up and that the community has largely decided on.


Any% - Anything goes. True Any%. That being said with how fast Dog House is it is very unlikely it will develop to be anything other than 'dog house category'
Any% No DHG - Dog House disallowed. 'Warps', OoB, S+Q allowed.
Any (All Instruments)% No Warps, No Pups, No problems - Dog House and Warps disallowed. S+Q and Out of Bounds Allowed (I could see perhaps Any% S+Q as it currently exists on the leaderboard being merged with this maybe?)
Any (All Instruments)% No DHG, Warps, OoB, S+Q. - Dog House, Warps, Out of Bounds, S+Q disallowed.
Legacy% (All Instruments) - No Dog house, warps, out of bounds, save and quit, deaths (so buying shovel), no villa skip (so doing kamelot and the full first half of trading sequence).

Again, I think the difference between Legacy% and category 3 with OoB allowed is pretty large and fits well into the ruleset as something between 3 and 5 without being redundant.

Just thinking out loud here, most of the categories are defined by the tricks (for lack of a better word) that are allowed, all of which have the same goal of "Enter Windfish Egg with the tools available to you (in all categories other than Any% and Any% Warps this makes getting all instruments necessary)."

The exceptions here are All Instruments and Hundo which are categorized by a content goal and not by ruleset.

Also if someone has a better idea for category names or naming conventions I'm down.

Also would like to stress since I know how a few have gotten heated or upset over a 'silly' amount of categories that was just a hypothetical list of categories you could logically make my adding/subtracting the different levels of rulesets.

As is in that post I only see 2, maybe 3 categories regularly ran, in this order

1) Main category (looking to be option 4 of my prior post)
2) Any%
3) Category 3 of prior post.

The other categories, being Any% No Dog House, 100%, All Instruments, and Legacy% would very likely be side categories ot be dabbled in once in a while for flavour that would be explored on a basis of individual interest (much like current 100% and All Instruments).

I like where this is going. I mostly agree with leon so far. I think a category 3.5 should be a thing, as people are definitely interested in using superjumps that don't completely destroy the game. Considering that, I don't quite agree with the way you defined #4, potato. Here's my take on it.

Doghouse - entering a door from the wrong side
Walk through walls (wtw) - superjumping in water
Warping - Transitioning from one dungeon or cave system to another
Minor oob allowed - Bass's ruleset

1) No restrictions
2) No doghouse, no wtw
3) No dh, no warping, no wtw (any oob allowed)
3.5) No dh, no warping, no wtw, minor oob allowed (Bass ruleset)
4) No major glitches / legacy%? (no dh, no ww, no wtw, no villa skip, no deloading, no superjumping, minor oob allowed, no s+q)

The reason I still say "minor oob allowed" for legacy% is just because I don't think we have a particularly satisfactory definition for "no oob". We could, perhaps, go with "not allowed to clip more than 3 pixels into a wall" again, but I don't particularly like that, because in some cases you can become "accidentally" or "incidentally" clipped into a wall. Tompa's hookshot-through-moving-blocks technique comes to mind.

Of the categories that might actually be run, I imagine #3 would be too similar to #3.5 to generate much interest. The rest, I could imagine myself running.

Another note, bass's ruleset overlaps with the "no warping" rule, as it says you can't transition in certain places. This isn't necessarily a problem though.

As for original LA, I guess you could throw in a "no screenwarping" rule for #2 and up... I think that should work, though I'm not entirely familiar with that game.

Oh, and I didn't put "no s+q" in #3.5. I don't have strong feelings on that. :P

Hey everybody.

Sorry for interrupting this discussion.

I found a Super Jump in D3 for getting Pegasus boots that saves 0.86 second. That's seems nothing, but it is quite fun.
It seems that it works best with a PoP active, but I'm not sure because I'm quite a newbie in SJs ;)


Here is my highlight that compares this strat with the normal strat.
http://www.twitch.tv/hawkrex/c/6486978 (http://www.twitch.tv/hawkrex/c/6486978)

But where is 100% in all this? what tricks should be allowed in 100%? obviously not DHG but what about SJ's, No-Clip, etc?

It seems that right now everyone is making up their own rules as they run, at least to me thats what it looks like, there is no set path for anyone to follow.. so we just have to make our own? that is what has turned me off from running LADX and honestly idk if i want to come back until things are completely settled with no argument left on either side

So, the majority of people agreed on seabass's ruleset earlier, and I think we're sticking with that. This further discussion is (hopefully) just over possible other categories that could be interesting to run - ways of separating the "tiers" of glitches. Discussion over the "main" category's rules has been going on for quite a long time, so I'd very much prefer if we could agree that these are the rules the main category is using now. Sorry if I overcomplicated things with my last post...

I think a lot of us are in agreement but there are just too many options.

So there are 4 levels of OoB in LADX!?:
- no OoB - 3-pixel wall-clip rule
- Bass rules (superjumps + hookshot clip) - you can go over/clip through solid walls, but no free roaming OoB (no cave ceilings etc.)
- OoB - you can use superjumps or other techniques to get OoB (on cave/wall ceilings)
- WtW (walk though walls) - superjumping while swimming to get OoB

Also, these rules can apply to any%, all-instruments%, or 100%
Also, OoB and WtW can also allow or disallow wrong warping (WW - moving between unconnected map regions)
Also, we can allow s+q or no s+q
Also, doghouse a.k.a. no restrictions

The current leaderboard categories are:
- any% (no restrictions)
- all-instruments (no restrictions)
- any%/all-instruments (no OoB, no WW, no s+q)
- any%/all-instruments (no OoB, no WW, s+q)
- 100% (no OoB, no WW, s+q)

OK, so most people want to ditch "no OoB" for "Bass rules" across the board.
I think it would be fun to highlight each of: OoB, WW, and WtW.
As far as 100%... I'm not sure. Maybe add a (WtW, WW, s+q)? Because if you're going to walk around wherever you want, at least have the decency to collect all the items...
Doghouse 100%???

***************
Proposed new leaderboard: (please suggest adding/removing categories)
- any% (no restrictions)
- all-instruments (no restrictions)
- any%/all-instruments (Bass, no WW, no s+q) <-- this is what most folks are currently running
- any%/all-instruments (OoB, no WW, s+q)
- all-instruments (OoB, WW, s+q)
- any%/all-instruments (WtW, no WW, s+q) **this is my favorite potential category... I'm biased...**
- 100% (Bass, no WW, s+q) <-- really close to the current 100%
- 100% (WtW, WW, s+q) <-- because why not

Potentially popular categories:
- any% (OoB, WW, s+q)
- any%/all-instruments (no OoB, no WW, no s+q, no villa skip) <-- legacy% (add buy-the-shovel%??)
- 100% (no restrictions)

I think we will see which category is run the most. (Although it's understandable that some people dont like to run as long as this isnt really settled). We have quite a lot of categories to choose from.
Maybe we can do some races of some categories. I'll try to stream this evening. I would like to do a run of All Instruments (no WW). That one looks like a cool run to me

I honestly don't like the idea of having a 100% with no restrictions. I know it was just a fun idea but until this game and its current categories are redefined I don't see the need for any more :p

In keeping with how it has been in the past 100% would be no Dog House, no warps, no OoB, and I'm hesitant to allow SJs in it but that is just me. I feel that 100% has the implied intention of being the 'do all the meaningful content' category without utilizing significant skips to accomplish that, or at least that has been my interpretation of it, so I'm hesitant to allow things on it that let you skip large amounts of the content.

The main category *has* been decided on, no one is 'making up' rules. That is what the entire vote on the super jumps was about. The category is using the seabass ruleset of Super Jumps, people have been doing runs and submitting them. At this point the only confusion is (or should be) around the categories surrounding it but main category/any% no S+Q is defined with people running it.

The discussion going on here is more about how to define the (define meaning description-wise not the actual changing of) the rulesets and tiers of tricks.

Also I propose keeping the leaderboards as is. Categories can be added later, and I think it's better handled by just doing the natural process of seeing which rulesets people become interested in and decide to route, and when enough interest or demand exists, can be easily added as a formal category to the leaderboard later.

I don't like or agree with arguments against 'category saturation' but I don't think making 4 theory ones no one has done before and throwing them onto the leaderboard is the right step, either.  My opinion is that things should remain as they are now on the leaderboards and letting it evolve and develop naturally on the basis of what ends up seeing activity and what doesn't.


Also can we have a better naming convention. Any% No DHG Warps OoB S+Q is a bit convoluted

@Leon, Yeah, that's a good point. We definitely can't remake the leaderboard full of new, empty categories... That would look silly... I guess I was proposing potential leaderboard/race categories for the future? I like SurrealGuy's idea of testing some of them out with races.

I expect that if we go with "see which category is run most", we could easily end up with every person running their own set of rules. My list was intended to present some ideas to collect people into common categories. I just think if people are going to try out new rules, we should have some defined rulesets available beforehand to get everyone on the same page.


As far as naming goes, I think we agree that "no OoB" means seabass rules? I dont think "no doghouse" or "no walk though walls" needs to be in the title of the run, just in the rule description, since it's kind of the default. Also, I don't think you need to specify "no WW" for a "no OoB" category. Finally, I'd say that s+q should be the default, so only "no s+q" should be specified. The main category would be "any% (no OoB, no s+q)"

OR... we could have short category names like OoT and put everything in the rule description. Here's a bunch of ideas for that approach:
- Warpless = any%/all instruments (no OoB, no s+q) <-- main category (Do people like the word "warpless"?)
- No Out of Bounds = any%/all instruments (no OoB)
- No Wrong Warps = any%/all instruments (OoB, no WW)
- Exploration = any%/all instruments (WtW, no WW)
- No Doghouse = all instruments (OoB, WW, no doghouse)
- Glitchless = legacy% (no OoB, no s+q, no villa skip, buy the shovel, etc. )

Nice! I couldn't get this to work consistently enough to justify the <1 sec time save... I think it will be even better for a s+q category since you can avoid pushing the blocks at all to save a couple more seconds.

So I want to reiterate that this is about rule definition and clarification and not about changing the rules of main category (again) since I have heard from a few people now watching this conversation that they are concerned about doing runs because the rules might be reverted back or continually changed.

On that note, the current way of explaining the ruleset is very lacking. From the rules popup:


So as of right now, what falls under the umbrella of "Wrong Warp"

- Dog House Glitch
- Inter-dungeon warps (D7, Fisherman land, etc)

and "Out of Bounds"

- a lot of things as this definition is very, very problematic. Super Jumps fall into a very ambiguous territory, and this limited explanation fails to handle No Clip/Super Swims entirely.

I really like Fried Potato's system of defining and explaining them. Obviously there is no way to future proof and make ruleset definitions scalable with any and all tech found in the future however I feel that it does a much better job and is much more likely to be able to seamlessly accommodate new tech and be less open to interpretation and debate than the previous one, so I propose making this the new formal way of breaking down and defining the rulesets and tiers of glitches (AGAIN: this is just for defining purposes and not representative of an actual change to current existing categories that hasn't already happened):

Note: This only applies to DX

Universally banned: Up/Down and Left/Right dpad input glitch
Dog House Glitch: Using the Dog House to enter warped world
Warps: Using methods that let you transport from one dungeon or cave network to another that are not intended to be connected, otherwise known as the "Tompa Ruleset." This allows the D7 -> D8 warp in the dungeon 7 miniboss room, and super jumping on top of cave or dungeon ceilings to transition from one network to another, among others.  (Dren's No Clipping glitch may be appropriately placed here?)

This might not fit the ruleset perfectly but here is an example of what I imagine this category would look like: http://www.twitch.tv/rapid_f/c/5060519

Out of Bounds: This allows for you to walk through objects and transition through screens that normally wouldn't be possible, with the limitation being that you may not transition between dungeons or cave networks that are not intended to be connected. Super Jumping onto cave ceilings and onto walls and then screen transitioning through them are allowed, provided you keep your overall location in the dungeon or cave network.

Examples of things allowed:
All of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94OlfZkRp4k

Unfortunately because of how vaguely OoB has been defined in the past I was unable to find an appropriate video that might serve as a rough demonstration for how the category may look.

Not Out of Bounds: I just want to reiterate this. Doing Super Jumps is not out of bounds. Doing a Super Jump onto a cliff (not a ceiling but super jumping up a cliff like in the current Dungeon 6 route or in Ocarina Shrine!) is not out of bounds. Walrus Skip is not out of bounds. Jumping onto the ceiling of a dungeon or cave network is out of bounds. For a better idea if you're confused on this, go a few pages back and consult Seabass and Aullos' images for reference.

This leaves Save and Quit which is it's own thing and more of a 'filter' to be applied (or not) to categories, however looks to only have a place in the current main category and the upcoming proposed legacy category.

I've spent 20 minutes typing this post and I know there was something I wanted to close it with however I'm very tired and can't recall what that was. Fried Potato deserves any and all credit for this as all of what I'm saying here is just me reiterating his earlier post, however I feel this proposed system is a much, much, much better, consistent, and logical way of conveying the tiers of glitches and rulesets in LADX. Please let me know what you think :)


Again: this isn't to change category rules. This is just a more organized and concise way of explaining and defining them.

I'd like to clarify on what counts as a "dungeon/cave/house network" since it will affect OOB.

LA is broken into three base maps. LADX is in four. When you enter a dungeon, the game rearranges the base maps on demand to be put in the order of that dungeon or location. I will refer to these as sub-maps, and I have a list of them on ZSR: http://www.zeldaspeedruns.com/la/doghouse/in-game-maps

Even if you enter the post-processed dungeon, you can still escape its bounds and enter another dungeon, so long as that dungeon is on the same base map. This allows travel between dungeons 1-6 and dungeons 7-9. Color Dungeon is very unique, I'll address that later. Note that Kanalet Castle is NOT a product of processing and is in its final configuration in its base map (Underworld 2)

Let's say SJ between screen transitions is allowed, which I believe it should be. What if you screen transition to one of the empty dungeon rooms as a result of processing? You are still technically within the dungeon network, but you're not in a room that you could "naturally" get to. In my sample Color Dungeon with SJ route, I was concious of staying within dungeon bounds. For Color Dungeon it's easy because EVERYTHING on that base map is in that network, but I still entered a technically unused "filler" room in that path. Does this constitute an OOB? Again, the question isn't on me using SJ to jump between screen transitions, it's on the location I ended up.

Video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=158A2_ClLao
Jump to 1:40 to see the SJ that takes me into a screen that is technically within the dungeon network, but never naturally accessible. The "filler" room for Color Dungeon is the boss room, for some reason. I don't know if this should be considered OOB or not.

Here's a No S+Q Turtle Rock: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvH8jr2fUIM
I never enter a "filler" room but I do SJ between screen transitions. I stay within the network, the dungeon. This in my opinion should not be considered OOB.

Sorry for being the IT guy and blabbing away about these things...

Leon, I think that's a great summary!
Edit: I'd like to apologize for my liberal usage of the phrase "wrong warp." A wrong warp really has something to do with corrupted warp data/tiles or something. Like in doghouse... I don't know a lot about that... What I've always meant is what Leon said: Sorry for any confusion.

Mab, going off of seabass's post, I think those jumps would be out of bounds because you are going through a screen transition from a "blue tile": http://forums.zeldaspeedruns.com/index.php?topic=1845.msg30353#msg30353

While perhaps arbitrary, I think emphasizing screen-transitions with respect to OoB is something most people seem to agree with.

At the same time, its hard for me to argue that what you did is OoB, while the superjumps in D6 are not OoB... Isn't the whole point of superjumping to get over walls, so why not allow the screen transitions? This idea is exactly why I wanted to keep all superjumps out of the main category and call them OoB. The current interpretation of the rules allows about half the things in the video Leon posted https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94OlfZkRp4k . I also just realized that the first superjump to get the firerod in D8 totally lands you on a "ceiling" that is inaccessible except by superjumping.....

I think it's going to boil down to what most people agree to allow (e.g. no screen transitions through walls), and the rest just have to follow those rules...


I think going through a filler room should be allowed but OoB because the submaps are boundaries defined by the game, not by us lowly humans. Though it only applies in D7-9 since the D1-6 filler rooms don't have exits. Also, I think "wrapping around the map" either up<->down or left<->right should be akin to WW and disallowed in OoB, but that hasn't been an issue yet.

Here's something I found like an hour ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-Mmf7X5KTQ

I don't know if this qualifies as OOB or not... I'm a little tired of having to think if something like this is OOB. The game doesn't distinguish between a "floor" or a "ceiling" it simply says "these tiles have this collision set" so I'm not sure if I like the current blue/red/yellow tileset discussion. I can understand wanting to not use SJ to bypass a screen transition, but I think if it's in its own screen then it should be allowed. That way you can go OOB en route to d4 so long as you stay in the cave, but you can't use that to get up the mountain really quickly. I did a slow preliminary run with a ruleset similar to this and it was more or less the same as what we have now, just with some more SJs in some places. I don't see the problem with it I guess...

looking at the current routes runners are using, most things in regard to the rule set seem pretty straight forward. the only gray area for me, i think, are some of the oob details. what i haven't really seen being made useful is bypassing certain obstacles with superjumps as shown in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94OlfZkRp4k my current understanding was the you can superjump through anywhere as long as any of the screen transitions involved were natural. by which i mean the next screen being transitioned to was in fact the next screen. also entering that screen as intended. i see leon saying everything in the above video is in accordance and friedpotato saying roughly half of it is not. i approach this from a completely neutral standpoint because i'm not bothered by any changes made or unmade. but yeah, i think there's a way to sum up what superjumps entail and what can/can't be done with them but i'm not seeing it here?

There is my vision about OoB, which can be an excessive term for this game but we still deal with it.

First, I think an OoB is be pretty much “stand or move being in a wall”.

Then, OoB should be allowed. What should not is screen transition while being OoB.
That means that you can go absolutely everywhere in a screen from the moment you don't screen transition.
Standing in a wall for no reason would have no point in a run then.

This image (http://i.imgur.com/zgs5QGC.jpg) shows where you can go (everywhere), where you can screen transition, and where you can't.
Being there (http://i.imgur.com/dOnCHmk.jpg) would be allowed, but there's no point standing there.
However, if you screen transition there (http://i.imgur.com/GzeygTh.jpg), then the run would be invalid.

Also I went through Emuraloz's tricks and some others to illustrate what I'm saying and this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIfZs1ulayE&feature=youtu.be) also explains why I disagree with Mabdulra.

About ceilings, I think they are a specific place where Link can naturally move if he reaches the place, but I think it should be forbidden to stand and to move on it.
Same for no clip/superswim.