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So recently there's been a lot of new things found in LA/DX, and the shape of the game and ruleset is really up in the air at the moment to the point where the community really needs to come together to discuss this. Because of this I feel like this is really the perfect time to share any and all possible ideas or topics that may want to be explored as far as rule changes may go. Myself I feel like this is a good time to discuss the issue of dying on the stairs. In addition to this, others have expressed their wanting to explore further the ideas of Walrus Skip, Frog Song skip, and lv2 Bracelet skip to name a few.

I just wanted to make this post to allow anyone else who may want to bring up a topic to voice their opinion freely so that it may be explored in the near future, as this might be a pivotal point in LA/DX speedrun history. So if you have anything you'd like to add, feel free to post and discuss.

I would like the LA/DX community to write down a definitive definition of what an OoB is, on which everyone would agree, the runners as much as the TASers (I know it would involve some differences though). This done, this could eventually help defining what is allowed and not, what is an OoB, and not -such as Walrus skip, Frog Song skip...-

The concern brought up with the walrus was the PoP trick to get past him from the desert side. With the current definition:
You're kind of clipping through the walrus, though not exactly... and I guess you could argue that you're trying to bypass the transition boundary at the edge of the desert? I'm not entirely sure how to interpret the bypassing screen transition boundaries thing, to be honest.

One way I might interpret it is "you can't do a screen transition between any 2 spots that aren't supposed to be connected". I think this makes the clipping through solid walls part redundant, though. This would allow walrus skip, and disallow old frog song skip. I guess you could do the shaq jump near d4 with this definition if you went back in-bounds before transitioning (not that it would be useful afaik).

Another way to interpret it is "you can't clip through solid objects to reach a screen you're not supposed to be able to reach". That would be more restrictive, disallowing all 3 things I mentioned in the last paragraph, I think.

Is one of those interpretations correct, or am I wrong on both of them, or is it not clear? In fact, what's the reason it doesn't just say "no clipping through solid objects"? It's implied that you're allowed to clip through solid objects, as long as you don't do it to bypass normal screen transition boundaries (whatever that means).

Better yet, what is a "solid object"? I understand these would be anything that restricts Link from moving, however "objects"(at this point) is too broad a definition. Does it mean tiles, or sprites? I am asking this as Walrus is a sprite, not a tile.
As well, I feel that "the Eagle Tower wrong warp in the mini-boss room" should be sent to the OoB ruleset, as it is an OoB: Link gets clipped outside of the screen transition (his y-value is set below zero and some magic mumbo-jumbo takes place, which sets his y-value to something above 255), he doesn't get sent to an unnatural entrance value.

What about the OoB after the rooster skip ? It's obviously an OoB but you could reach the screen by simply walking left. It's like a shortcut.

For a regular corner clip through a wall, you can clip either 2 or 3 pixels. This has always been allowed for obvious reasons. But the moment you clip in more into a block, it has been banned. So the actual OoB definition has been "Not allowed to clip more than 3 pixels into an object".

When you jump down onto the walrus, you are clipped two pixels into him. Banning that would mean you ban all corner clips, which wouldn't make much sense. And if he was a "solid object", that would mean Link would have jumped over him too and landed in the water. As when you jump down a cliff, Link will skip past all solid objects until he can hit the ground.

And "you can't do a screen transition between any 2 spots that aren't supposed to be connected" would mean no Villa Skip, depending on how you look at it.

The way I have solved this for the new TAS, which is the least arbitary I could think of, is the following:

Main category: "No Wrong Warping". This includes going from one cave/dungeon into a different cave/dungeon. This will allow Frog Song Skip, but ban the type when you get on top of the ceiling in a cave to walk to a different cave, such as the old Walrus skip method. And obviously banning Doghouse and the methods of screen warping in LA and LADX.

I would actually suggest real time runners to have a similar ruleset. To me it makes the most sense currently =).

I'm glad this was made as a formal topic/thread as it's something I've been wanting to talk about for a long time. I've felt for a while that a fair portion of tricks in the game aren't widely documented and that there's some stuff from past years before my time (I started speedrunning in late 2013) that I've seen referenced before by older runners but never knew much about and couldn't find explained anywhere. Examples are Frog Song Skip (this is more unexplored than undocumented since it was deemed OoB anyway), the "Shaq Jump" which I know at some point was allowed if I remember correctly but was later disallowed and frankly have no idea of where in the runs it could be useful if allowed, the "jesus jump" which I had to find from an old old old 100% vod from years ago, etc.

Taking inventory of the glitches in the game and ways/places they would be useful is something I've wanted to see for a long time since I feel there's been some stuff that has been lost as much of the veterans of LADX who would know about the history of the game and speedrun are retired from speedrunning in general and much of the community is of newer people.


Anyway, the thing I think right now we need to figure out and then decide on is what and why the Piece of Power allows you to clip through the Walrus sprite, and if this constitutes an OoB movement.

Secondly, as Tompa brings up, there are.. inconsistencies in the current ruleset. Specifically disallowing Out of Bounds as currently defined, while allowing Villa Skip which very much should be considered an out of bounds movement under  that ruleset. A tighter definition of the glitch types, instances of them, would be very good since the current definition of the ruleset is fairly poor for OoB and WW designations and this is the perfect time to discuss this while the community is enthused about the new glitches being found.

My own input on the rule situation is that I've always mentally internalized 3 tiers of major glitching that I Know of in LADX:

1) "Wrong Warping" which is just the action of utilizing the corrupted or 'broken' map tiles that can be accomplished with Dog House Glitch, the Dungeon 7 Miniboss Warp, and a few other areas I can't recall.
2) "Out of Bounds" which is a bit slipperier to define under the LADX run but is the act of moving through barriers and objects that isn't intended in a way that doesn't constitute a wall clip. An example I can think of is all movements that utilize the Shaq Jump, and Frog Song Skip.
3) Wall Clipping, which for any non-runners who might be reading is the act of slightly clipping into the 2 pixels of a sprite's edge allowing you to make movements or avoid hitbox areas that you otherwise wouldn't be able to or isn't intended. This is utilized massively in the run.

On top of this there's also the S&Q and No S&Q distinction which I'm conflicted on. I feel it's an antiquated holdover that doesn't add much to the run as a rule, however for LADX it does add an interesting mechanic - the piece of power - that becomes a cool mechanism for further mastery of the game at higher levels.

My own personal ideal has always been to have different categories reflecting the different tiers of rulesets listed above to give a variety of ways to play through the game giving a fun and diverse experience. With people picking up a bunch of new (relatively) categories in 2014, this has mostly been achieved. My only issues really are figuring out how to define certain subsets of glitches and how to deal with, if any are found, inconsistencies in the ones allowed in the route currently.

It's definitely weird to apply this to sprites, since they behave differently than solid tiles, and wall clipping doesn't apply to them. So the same rules that apply to solid walls might not apply to sprites. But this is the only case where a sprite is involved. So basically, we either have to make up the rules just for this sprite, or continue using rules designed for solid walls which don't entirely apply to sprites?

I for one would actually be okay with tricks that allow you to clip through sprites, since they don't necessarily stay in one place for the entire game, and even if you're inside them, the spot you're at can be considered in-bounds. I don't know of any other consequences this would allow, because afaik this situation only just came up with the walrus.

EDIT - another excellent point brought up by daemona in another thread is that, when you exit dungeon 8, the turtle head is still there. Are you clipped into that? (Again, this is a sprite, which the game expects to be gone at this point in the game)

Also, I don't think villa skip would be considered OoB with this definition, since you're not actually clipping into anything. The game automatically puts you into a falling state so you're not inside of a bush or anything. It was just my attempts at interpreting the rules that were off.

Lastly - if the actual OoB definition is "Not allowed to clip more than 3 pixels into an object", why doesn't it say so in the rules? :P

Or could it be that it is only an OoB if you bypass objects to get something faster?
You are only stuck into the turtlehead you are not trying to leave.
It would also make no sense if you wanna walk to D7 after D8 becouse its slower so you would anyways play Mambo.
But for a short moment you are stucked in a sprite.

Because people haven't really known what kind of rule they have actually made up for the game. I tried to explain people long ago on the matter, though no one seemed to care, until now when it has brought up again by something (The Walrus) that is the same exact thing as everyone has used in every run up to this point (The Turtle).

The only "difference" between the Walrus and the Turtle Head is that you can walk out of the latter without needing a PoP. I would guess it's because the Turtle Head has a narrower sprite or something ?

But anyway, now you've made the comparison, I have to say that I'm definitely ok with the Walrus being not an OoB. And if people really want to set it as one, then should we kill the Turtle Head ? That sounds wrong in my opinion.

The Turtle example is very good, Tompa. I think we are in agreement that banning the Walrus clip means we ban the Turtle Rock clip as well.

The clip doesn't happen at all in S+Q but I'm curious on the Japanese opinion of it. Does anybody have a video of the Walrus despawn in the S+Q category? I want to contact the Japanese community to see if they would allow it under JRTA timing. That won't affect us on ZSR, but I'm curious to see their opinions on the matter. (though ultimately I'd like all Japanese runners to move their leaderboards to ZSR)

I did walrus skip around 22 minutes into my S+Q pb - http://zeldaspeedruns.com/speedruns/66791

So, then, what do we want to do about the rules? To me, "Not allowed to clip more than 3 pixels into an object" is a lot more clear of a definition of an OoB than what the rules say right now. We could perhaps change that to "Not allowed to clip more than 3 pixels into a solid tile", noting that sprites are not tiles. Afaik the current route conforms to this, and is optimized for these rules, but correct me if I'm wrong?

We could also go for something like Tompa's definition, which just prevents us from transitioning from different cave systems. I have a feeling this would allow for a number of shenanigans which aren't used in the current route, but the only one I know of is old frog song skip. And perhaps L2 bracelet skip. Both things that were banned after the last rule change. :P

Anyway, thoughts?

Regarding Turtle Rock (I'm not quite sure how to phrase this either):

It seems that the Turtle's "Hitbox" or points where it's solid is only at its nose. Theoretically, if you were able to wallclip at that point (like you would when you exit the dungeon) you could bypass him there too. In other words, you're not "inside" a "solid" object, which would be essentially the same as the wall clips we do before D2 or in the Armos Knight Maze. I'm not really arguing in favour or against banning turtle head skip thingy, just a thought.

So yeah..

Makes sense to me. I guess that makes the situation with the walrus unique, then.

I also did some "testing" (really just muckin' around) right now. If you fight the turtle head, you will also notice that his hitbox is only in his nose. (You can test this out by trying to "poke" his eye while fighting him. It doesn't work, damage only happens at the base of the nose.) Still, it can be open for discussion.

And yes, Turtle, Armos, Goponga Flowers and the flowers are all the same. They are all clipped through their tops, as the hitboxes isn't stretched out completely. For the walrus it is stretched up a bit further. Likely because you would otherwise be able to simply walk through it into the Desert with a wallclip. It's otherwise the same kind of sprite object as the above mentioned ones (Before they are activated).

Here are two things you can have open for discussion too. First one being that you can shoot through blocks while they are moving, something it seemed like people didn't know about... Second is just the same kind of glitch used for Frog Song Skip. But are you allowed to use it to go through other blocks that won't take you to a new screen (Based on one of the definitions in the topic). Each time you clip you are clipped three pixels in to the block. Which would technically mean you are allowed to do it once but not more. Or...?

http://youtu.be/Zx6O3l7Xe1c

Out of curiosity, what applications would that hookshot clip have in a run? Besides the shown clip in D7.

Was there reason for banning OoB other than wrong warping? If not, then could we just give a clear definition to wrong warping?
This would allow small time saver tricks like walk on ceiling, Randu method flame thrower skip, and the block skip shown by Tompa. It would also allow for larger riskier time saver tricks like frog song skip.

Flynn: another flame thrower skip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvsnDqG1dZo

I completely forgot about that skip, it looks so swag.

Flynn: It was basically just showing off the trick for this discussion of "OoB". It doesn't really have a use anywhere.

And yeah, the video Captain posted is another good example for this. Something which I think should be allowed as well.

What is the current Any% No Wrong Warp route? It's not a category on ZSR, but if I'm not mistaken, allowing OoB sans restriction will enable you to beat the game in under 30 minutes, no Doghouse or Wrong Warping involved. That's part of why I'm uncomfortable with embracing the stuff seen in the video, but I am okay with us trying to come up with a solid definition for what constitutes OoB fully. The problem is some things in the current route may fall under the OoB definition we come up with as well. Unfortunately this is one of those games where we need to come up with a pretty arbitrary ruleset simply because our Any% is as short as it is.

Can somebody link a video of this Ceiling bug we're talking about? I sadly have never seen it. :(

walk on ceiling: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gt9X8UpZ7Bw . It only saves about 5 seconds unless you use the glitch elsewhere to ww, like so: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_b5moECt00

What OoB trick allows you to beat the game in under 30 minutes without ww?

You (And everyone else) should watch Swordless' TAS :).

Sweet, so I knew about that but didn't realize it was named that. :)
The current No WW route uses that second trick, actually. The full route is here: http://pastebin.com/9Zuew1cK

Part of the logic there is that you aren't warping since you aren't hitting any warp tiles except for the one into Dethyl's room. However, that is the intended warp and not a wrong warp. Warp data, by the way, is as follows:

• D401: 00 - Overworld, 01 - Dungeon, 02 - Sidescrolling, FF - Corrupted (this is what happens in Doghouse if you set warp on one screen and then leave to a screen without a warp)
• D402: In-Game Map, list here: http://www.zeldaspeedruns.com/la/doghouse/in-game-maps (I need to update this again)
• D403: Room number
• D404: X Position for Link
• D405: Y Position for Link

If we go with Tompa's proposed definitions for OOB, that route would be invalidated because Tompa's definition states that going from one dungeon into another should be considered OOB.
Tompa, you had a ruleset you wrote up for the new TAS, correct? Can you post that here, please? I think it'd be very useful.

I don't use the term "out of bounds" when making up the rules for the TAS. It's an arbitary name that I don't like using.

But I already posted my definition in the topic:

"Main category: "No Wrong Warping". This includes going from one cave/dungeon into a different cave/dungeon. This will allow Frog Song Skip, but ban the type when you get on top of the ceiling in a cave to walk to a different cave, such as the old Walrus skip method. And obviously banning Doghouse and the methods of screen warping in LA and LADX."

You know, if we go with Tompa's definition, we could always rename the old "no WW" route to "no doghouse" or something like that. That's basically what the current WW definition is, aside from the fact that we lumped the d7 -> d8 warp in with it.

I'm curious as to what ruleset the japanese runners use. A rule change could make our S+Q categories very different.

Mab, the no WW route is 20 minutes long.

http://www.twitch.tv/flynngaming/c/5195925

Awful run, but you get the point. Game gets broken open after D2.

From the Japanese ruleset: http://www40.atwiki.jp/niconamarta/pages/135.html
I'll try my best to translate...

ALLOWED
S+Q
Death
Thief
Hookshot Jumping
Final Boss 3rd Form (Moldorm) Stunlocking (I think that's what it means?)

DISALLOWED
Screen scroll bug
Doghouse Glitch
Tunic Glitch
Slipping through rocks diagonally (i.e. what was shown as a means of skipping Flamethrower)
Version specific bugs:
v1.0: (something about jumping between different levels of height?)
v1.0: Using items in Mambo's room to shorten time, items that don't shorten time are allowed
v1.0: Making Link invincible (huh?)
v1.0: Freezing Blocks (guess my JP PB is now invalid lol.....)
v1.1: Skipping dialogue on Final Boss (what is this?)

Then they list some "TAS"-only strats that are "obviously" banned.

I don't think we should worry about their rules, in all honesty.

Guess I really wasn't the first to find that trick with the hookshot, lol
Might be related to the thing which softlocks the game 99% of the time if you pause before the text? :P

I'd like to think about every OOB Non-WW in LADX before we do any ruleset change for it.
Here's one I thought of that would very likely happen, and it's very easy to do, too:

1. Open d4
2. Go right to the cave
3. Jump onto ceiling, stay in the cave bounds, just go around the obstacle
4. Exit cave on other side and enter d4

I'm assuming that this will show up in the new TAS, Tompa? ;)

And what about just remove the "no OoB" term and replacing it by, I don't know, "as defined by the LA/DX community" ?

I mean, if "OoB" is too annoying to define so the runs can be, just ban stuff we don't want to see and allow stuff we do ?

To me that approach is really not ideal, I mean even if at the end of the day we need to figure it out on a case-by-case basis, we at least need a guideline to use. Preferably it should be as clear as possible.

I think both of the options mentioned here can work, I'm just not sure what people would prefer. I'd be okay with tompa's definition which allows more skips, but I'm not very immersed into the main categories yet. I'm especially curious what the higher level runners would think, like leon / zorlax, after all the time spent optimizing for a less lenient ruleset.

I'm fine with any rule changes. Change in the route(s) should be interesting at least! I've always been intrigued by the minor OoBs that were allowed in the route before I entered the community, and none of the categories utilize other than the No WW one which I think only 2 people have ran.

Only caveat I'll add is that if the ruleset is modified enough that the old runs are heavily invalidated perhaps just rename the current main category to Legacy or w/e simply as a means of preserving the leaderboards and runs of the last 3~ years of the game's activity. 

idk I don't particularly care about my PBs being wiped or invalidated; I can always play more and get new ones

I have too many quotes I want to use so I'll go through them quick and loose from earlier posts, sorry for not giving credit where it is due, but just read the posts and you will be fine :)


I for one would love to know EXACTLY why PoP allows you to move through it.  I also wonder how many other things PoP would effect "boundaries" of.


After we make a ruling I think we should have a page on ZSR clearly stating each trick, what "rule" it falls under, and a video of it.  This way in the future it is easier to document some of the lesser known tricks newer runners like myself might not even be aware of.


I feel like now that LA is becoming more "broken" there is room for S&Q again.  I think before it was a very similar route to the LA run.  Now that LA is changing a lot, I feel having somewhere to show off that "style" of route could be fun.  The fact that No SQ and SQ sync up after Mambo is sad, because it makes a lot of the run similar route wise, where without it the route would be a lot more interesting.  I'm not saying we should, but I think a Mamboless category could be fun to route  :o

-------------

That all being said, I am not 100% on the definitions as much as Tompa is with his TAS knowledge, and I don't have as much refinement of the game in its current state of Zorlax, Leon, or hell even Gio.  I can't articulate it, but the fact the Walrus CAN be walked out of with a simple thing as "get PoP" makes a lot of sense allowing it.  Some other things like Frog Song Skip and that swag "Flame Skip Strat 2" with the odd damage boost into an object can not be lined up and achieved as easily.  This also makes me feel the tricks that should not be allowed would include: the non hookshot jump in D8 (using the rope to bounce), the TAS strat of using the bomb mushroom to damage boost over water on the way to Animal Village, this new style of flame skip, Frog Song Skip.... but allow Walrus skip.

I for one don't want to grind another "rng" part of the run but I think it would add another level of depth and skill to a potential record where perfect execution and prefect RNG would/can/has produced VERY solid times worthy of praise.

TLDR:  I think Walrus skip should be allowed, flame skip II and frog song would NOT.
I suggest we make a ZSR page outlining each trick and how it is currently "categorized" with a video showing each one in more detail for future runners and just for library/history sake.

I agree with you, it is really not ideal, but I just wanted to bring the idea of a possible name change, which could be simply used until we finally agree on a good definition.


Yeah I pretty much want to make that too, and even mention the very little tricks, or difference between LA and DX. Making video wouldn't be that annoying since some of us has already made a lot of those.

I think most of us like the "main category" as it is now. Problem with Walrus skip is, that the digging is really rng-heavy and the execution doesn't seem too easy too. That might scare some runners (including me).
I always compare this topic with when the YBA glitch in ALTTP was found. Many runners were upset, because they liked the main category how it was and didn't want to change it, so they just let the category be what it was, but renamed it to "no major glitches" (we could do that too, but i would consider Villa skip and maybe dethyl skip as a major glitch).

No matter how we will decide this, I'll probably just stick to the old route(/category) and run that.
However, if we now decide, that we rename the main category to legacy% or so and then an easier (non-rng) method of walrus skip was discovered (we never know what this game has to offer), many of us may think: "Why isn't this used in legacy%?"

The thing with OoB tricks is that more and more strats will be discovered that will break the game even more and we have got the same discussion again. I would vote for an any% glitchless category (or "no major glitches", just have to decide if Villa skip is considered a huge glitch)

Maybe we need a "no major glitch" category as well as a crazy busted category with walrus, dethyl, villa, even frog song skips. I'd certainly enjoy messing around with that kinda stuff, though it can be frustrating, so a no major glitches category would make sense too. Just a thought.

I personally really like how the main category is currently without walrus skip. I don't think we should change any of the rules on the tricks we do currently, as I don't feel like any of them are OoB or WW's. Basically, OoB in my eyes is moving through/into a block you normally couldn't with clipping. This is why I feel the turtle rock boss clip is fine, but I'm iffy on walrus skip due to only being able to get out of it with PoP.
My opinion currently is to not allow walrus skip in No S+Q mostly because of the unknown about it, but I feel like since you're only able to do it with PoP, it's not really a matter of it being a clip, you're just inside the sprite.
As for the other tricks like Frog Song Skip, and the other flame thrower skip, I don't think they should be allowed in the main category as they're obvious OoB tricks.
These are just my opinions on these matters.

Honestly, this thread is 70% about Walrus Skip in No S&Q, so I will be addressing that right now.


One of the main things we have been severely neglecting is the impact allowing this has on the runners themselves. The thing I have noticed with nearly (if not 100%) of all active runners (so this does not include TAS-er's or people who haven't run, in say... 6months+) is that no one wants to do this glitch. Nobody likes it, and that speaks volumes to how we should decide. In fact, I know 4 people personally, who have said that they will stop running this game altogether if this gets allowed in S&Q. This is a huge deal right here. The community does not like the glitch, and we, as a community, make the rules that we run with. If we do something that causes people to leave, we are shooting are community in the foot, right as we are beginning to grow and gain volume. In addition, we will be scaring off new people from our community with this. While there is always talk of doing a "beginner route" and an "advanced route," I know that when I was a beginner, I did not want to learn the easy way of playing the game, and that has always been my attitude when it comes to speedrunning. It will take THAT much longer to actually get up to a competitive level, if you start with a different route.

We can hide behind rules, semantics, and prior wordings all we want, but at this point, there is still not enough evidence to call this "allowed" or "not allowed" given our current ruleset. Since the Walrus Clip can be viewed either way, I think we should listen to the community's actual feeling on the matter, rather than the possibility of maybe being technically correct. And this is what speedrunning is, a community deciding on a set of arbitrary rules to play the game with. There is no hand forcing us to disallow something. A major example in other communities I can think of is Super Mario World No Cap 95 exit. 96 Exit No Cape is POSSIBLE, but very hard to do and would scare off many people from the category, so they modified the category to make it more accessible. I was once told that "we don't want to be like SMW," but I see no reason to do so. In addition, YBA in LttP has also been mentioned.

There are other things to think about too: not allowing Walrus Clip can FINALLY lead to a notable difference between S&Q and No S&Q. Up to this point, I always thought that having both categories was superfluous at best. That would mean that there are 3(!) major ways of playing this game: No S&Q (DX), S&Q(DX), S&Q(Orig). If we allowed the clip, S&Q and No S&Q will become more or less the same. Also this Clip would make racing less fun, and we would be doing a different route anyways. Same goes for marathon runs. I think when you have to majorly modify your routing to speedrun in different media, the quality of the game as a speedgame goes down somewhat.

And because I dont know how to quote, Seabass, if RNG goes up, Skill/Optimization of runs goes down.


TLDR:
We, the community decide the rules. A large proportion of the community does not like Walrus Skip in No S&Q. We should disallow it for that reason [and the rules would not look "ridiculous" because we don't know if it's OoB or not.]

Thank you.

1. it should be allowed in s+q no doubt because reasons.

2. nobody know if the trick is actually oob or not, if nobody know for sure id say to not allow it.

that's how i see it.

I see this the same way, a speedrunning COMMUNITY should decide the rules for the game that they enjoy playing, and when there are things such as this new walrus skip and the bow wow skip that the majority of the players do not like, we need to have a discussion such as the ones in these forums, expressing the fact that this trick will tear our community apart.

In my eyes, The Walrus Skip should definitely be allowed in the S+Q category, but not in the main No S+Q category. Since there is still a lot of grey area in what we call OOB, I think that the trick should not be allowed in the main category, and I think most of the rest of the community agrees.

I also would like to point out that yes,this community is beginning to grow a lot, and this game is becoming more and more popular. I think that adding tricks like this would
A: Cause current runners to leave the category(s), or even the game
B:Scare off new runners, and prevent others from trying to run
C: Obliterate what we have of this current LA/LADX community.

I guess I should also reply to some recent counterpoints I have heard to what I said. Most notably that the Paper Mario or DK64 communities have had similar issues as what we're having in regarding Walrus Skip.  In our case right now, we're not outright banning something that is difficult, like.. say Rooster Skip, Boot Strats, or even PoP routing, but we would be banning something that is borderline (at best), which is already already deterring people in our community and creating schism between runners. So we're not banning tricks because "we don't like them", but we're banning something in a way where it could fit with our current ruleset anyways.

[And if we're worried about backlash regarding our community and the outside opinion of our community regarding this decision, I am pretty sure that no one really will notice, since we're so small.]

If Zorlax isn't a cheater I will eat my hat on stream. Stop being a bitch and play your videogame.

So let's actually be honest about this subject. If walrus skip gets banned it will actually have nothing to do with it being a potential OoB, and is entirely about people not liking the trick. This is just how it is, I know multiple members of the community have stated that by our ruleset walrus skip in no s+q should be allowed, but still want it to be banned. And while I disagree, I don't necessarily see this as a bad thing. If the entirely community wants to ban something because they don't like it, that's fine go ahead. But let's be honest about why we're doing it.

I know this will be an unpopular opinion, but I like the idea of either allowing it in both s+q and no s+q, or disallowing it in both categories. Again, this is really just about people not liking the trick, so category ruleset doesn't so much matter. I also think that allowing it in s+q but banning it in no s+q would make s+q an even more dead category than it already is. Based on how many people said they'd stop running if this was allowed, what DX runners would actually run s+q seriously now and do this trick (special case being drenn). Most people won't entirely based on the fact that they can just run no s+q, because the route is still largely the same and they get a 'get out of jail free' card for a difficult trick because they just happen to belong to the majority category of the community.

I know whatever the ruling is for no s+q, I will probably mimic in LA. Again, because this has nothing to do with OoBs anymore. And whatever the community decides I'll back them, regardless whether or not I agree with it

i wouldnt call a RNG moment a "hard trick".

If I had to make a final opinion mine would be this:

• Allow it in S/Q.

It allows the routes to differ.
It IMHO is no way in question of "OOB" or not since you can S/Q past it.
If you don't want to do the trick... don't do it.
(To be blunt no one really runs this anyway, so it doesn't affect anyone)

• DO NOT allow in No S/Q (main)

The question of it being an OoB is scaring enough people and makes me question it a little (needing PoP).
I haven't done runs because I don't know if I should start learning/working on this trick or not.  I'd like to get this finalized so I can have a clear ruling.
Our community would blow up a bit because so many people would leave over a trick.

• I will abstain from ruling on LA original since I don't really play that game, it is its own beast now.

My worry is that some day there will be a more consistent setup found, and then we have to have this entire discussion again.  I for one don't want to do it, but I am ok with my time not being "WR" because I didn't do an impossible trick.  If someone wants to grind it and take that time... good for them.  The game needs dedication and commitment.  A WR isn't free, it shouldn't be.  Even with the trick, someone still needs a LOT of other things to fall into place to get a very solid time.

TLDR
Allow in S/Q.  Variety is cool, no one runs it anyway....
Ban in No S/Q.  So many people don't want it, we don't want to scare away the world.
Harumph.

wat

I would still run it, but using the JRTA ruleset so that I may submit my time to the Nico leaderboards. It would still qualify as S+Q for ZSR, but of course would not be WR. I don't know if the Nico community allows the trick or not. Our decision shouldn't be based on theirs, but I'm curious to find out. I'll inquire further with pui.

Get your taco sauce ready. :-*




Also, in the same vein as Seabass, I'll make my opinion clear.

Ban Walrus Skip.

Ban Walrus skip in No S/Q main category for LADX.  We are all saying pretty much the same thing and just wasting time at this point.  We as a consensus don't want it in the main category for "reasons".

Someone with powers make a note in the rules that it is NOT allowed in No S/Q.  We are all beating around the bush a bunch and I think we need to make a decision and live with it or we will "argue" forever and the community will get even more tired of it.

BAN IT.  End of discussion.

(PS If you are mad at me, I'll take the heat.  None of us are standing up and saying close discussion.  If people wanna be mad at someone for closing it, yell to me.... I can take it)

-Dad Bass

The dad bass is harsh but fair.

The ruling has been passed.

So say we all.

and just what the fuck do you propose to do about me beating the record with walrus skip?

jesus christ

'this trick is too hard and I don't want to learn it lets ban it'

I should link this thread to naegleria I'm sure he'd enjoy it

If you want to put the time in to grind out a run that can beat the current record, and has this RNG in it... go for it.  I will gladly watch the run and clap at it.  If you want to run the game a certain way... run it that way.

I hope you understand that this post directly contradicts your prior statement decisively 'banning' the trick

Seabass, LA doesn't have a No S+Q category, nor do I really think it should. In that regard there should be no issue with Walrus Skip because you will S+Q upon getting the key, as opposed to having to get PoP in order to get back.

It sounds like we are currently deciding that the ban for the No S+Q category is specifically because we have determined that the clip to get through the Walrus with PoP is an OOB, which is not allowed in the current category definitions. Deloading the Walrus itself is fine; the main issue comes from the return. This is why it's allowed in S+Q and not in No S+Q. I'd rather use that argument than a "runners didn't want it" argument since it feels closer to the category definition, but the end result is still the same in regards to whether or not it's allowed to be used in runs.

The issue with this is it doesn't carry too much weight when the people behind decisively banning walrus skip have stated multiple times before that they feel its legal by our ruleset.

With this being said, walrus skip is dead. Bass has spoken.

Bass has spoken.

I agree with Zorlax's snippet on this Walrus Skip talk has completely hijacked the general discussion of consolidating and reconsidering the ruleset. I'd like to remind everyone that even when this is sorted out, there's still some discussion to be hard on that subject :) The prospect of morphing the categories to allow for a more diverse grouping of runs and rulesets is exciting since the game has been very largely unchanged in the 1.5 years I've been running it.

Sometimes it's hard (re: laziness) to remember what I've posted here and in skype where much of the discussion has been going on but I'll just summarize how I feel, although the matter has been decided upon typing this.

I agree with Flynn in that it blatantly seems much of the talk on this constituting an OoB movement has little to do with keeping the ruleset consistent and more with people wanting to frame the argument to make it disallowed because they don't want to have to learn and do attempts of it in an RTA setting. I don't really agree with the arguments that it should or will keep people out of the community by allowing it as not wanting to do the trick is as simple a matter as just not doing it. As is I doubt many (or even more than a few) would opt for even attempting the trick in serious RTA, and by no means is doing it a "free" wr or ride to the top of the leaderboards. To parrot seabass, frankly if someone puts in the grind time on such a low% success trick and gets it + the run together to top the times I think they've earned it.

Personally, barring a certain trick simply because "I don't want to" isn't something I'm a fan of, and is reminiscent of the Paper Mario "All Cards" and DK64 Helm Early drama events. Saying the stance on it would be reconsidered if a method was found to make it simpler/easier is worse.  But again like seabass said, I'll go with what the community wants to do as a general vote and this decision is already made. I'll probably mess around with it and probably do runs with the trick regardless, as I did back when I wanted to run on J when everyone else did English; if it remains banned they simply won't be submitted.

That's how I feel on the issue, which has since been sorted on skype (and here after refreshing the page).

For clarification, Bass has spoken and that's okay with me. I'm okay with the decision as well. I'm simply justifying that decision based on what constitutes OOB rather than personal disdain for the trick. Though perhaps it is easier to justify it because Bass has spoken.

I think we need a BassHasSpoken ffz emote now.

You can run the game however you want and get a time.  No one is stopping anyone from running the game how they enjoy... hell I did a category with some people to Save the Guy as fast as we could.  If you want to time a run with the current ruleset but use Walrus Skip, no one is stopping you.  But as far as "legally" submitting it, I don't think it would get verified as the rules are now (people don't want it).

While there are those who don't want the trick due to them not liking walrus skip, there are still those of us who don't want it because of it's possibility of being an OoB. I have no issues with hard tricks, or rng tricks being in runs...I run oracle of ages lol..The point is to play how you want to play, which is why there is categories, for basic rules on the runs, but you can still play however you want.

If walrus skip were added, there would be those who use it, and I'm sure there would be those who don't, just due to the volatility it adds to the run, which is the same thing that happens in Oracle of Ages with the D2 skip. Even though the D2 skip saves upwards of 7 minutes on the run, some people still don't use it because they don't want to waste 25 minutes to reset repeatedly due to a trick not working.
Although the tricks themselves aren't really comparable, the feeling runners get when presented with a trick that can end your run like that completely is the same.

You can rule whatever you want on the trick's usability and validity in the main category, but I still think this trick needs to be looked into for different setups, and most importantly the reasoning as to why PoP can get you out of the sprite, but normal walking can't when they're in the exact same position. It makes it tough to call whether it's OoB or not when you don't know if you're stuck because you're inside the sprite due to OoB, or just an unfortunate circumstance that PoP helps you overcome.

I guess we just need a consensus on the matter for now until more information is brought to light? Either way I'm fine whether it's allowed or disallowed; it doesn't become a requirement for the run if you're running because you enjoy running this game.

Just as a technical note, I presume the reason PoP gets you out is just from slightly lazy collision detection programming. The game will check if your position + your current speed is a walkable spot, and if it is, you'll be allowed to move. Since PoP increases your speed, your position + your speed can just barely reach walkable terrain. I'm not sure if that really helps telling if it's an OoB or not, but then that doesn't seem to be the focus of discussion here.

I do think at this point we just need to make a decision, so I approve of the Bass Has Spoken train, though since I'm kinda attached to walrus skip (as I found the setup) I'd definitely like for it to be allowed at least in S+Q. At the end of the day, LA/DX's main categories' rules are pretty darned arbitrary already.

I'll add my 2 cents to the matter, but feel free to ignore it since as I said the important thing is just to agree on something.

I don't entirely like the thought that we can basically change the category's rules on-the-fly to comply with what the runners like - I always preferred to focus on how we can push the game, rather than what the most "fun" route would be. I guess this is a consequence of me mostly running any% routes in games - I like the idea of any% more, but then some games like this one are broken to an insane extent so it becomes relatively trivial. Ideally, from my point of view, when any% is broken like this we'd make a set of rules which are as simple and unlimiting as possible, while still leaving most of the gameplay more or less... intact. However in some speedgames, like this one (imo), it doesn't quite work out that way - focus remains more on the most fun route. To me, the rules are vague, and... they're prone to changing.

Now, I know not everyone sees things the same way, and I'm not going to push for a kind of rule change that would fit better with this pov. But this is mainly the reason I'm not terribly comfortable with the situation.

Ultimately, though, Bass Has Spoken.

This is why I'm justifying the decision with "it's an OOB and thus is banned" for No S+Q. I am glad Bass Has Spoken (and streamed) because I think the community needed that to keep going for the main categories. The volume of runs has decreased after the discovery of Walrus Skip mostly because nobody knew what the rules were. I'm glad that we have some decision now, so people can continue to run.

It sounds like Drenn that you should definitely stick with S+Q, and maybe even go to OG LA to use Magic Rod for maximum deloading funtimes.

Damn. I come back and Bass Has Spoken. I'm glad we came to a conclusion and I think I'll begin runs again soon, because as mab said, i havent run because I wasn't sure of the rules.

What happened to the talks on the smaller tricks up for review? The OoB stuff that largely doesn't make sense to ban while Villa Skip is allowed

I think now that the Walrus in the room has been addressed, we can start to tackle these other ones like Frog Song, Lvl 2 Bracelet Skip, Flame Skip 2.0, etc.  I have no problem continuing to discuss those and have started another thread trying to document all the tricks and glitches we know of.  This way, we can have more information and make better informed decisions as a community.

To me those are all definitely OoB, as you literally enter wall blocks and stuff. Definitely more so than walrus skip, so I don't see their validity in main category being a thing.

As for Villa Skip, I don't see it as OoB because you don't actually enter a block, you trick the game into making you fall by transitioning into a screen with solid objects, therefore falling past all the solid object instead of through them like you would with OoB. But there is the question if after you make it into the maze and fall on that first screen, that you respawn inside the top bush, because I consider that OoB, but the game put you there because you screwed up, you didn't try to get into that OoB, so I dunno how to interpret that in terms of following the rule.
Like should a run be invalid if you accidentally fall into a pit on that first screen of the villa skip maze and respawn inside the bush?

@Disclude
Yes, spawning in the bush would defnitely be OoB in my opinion too, but falling down the hole clearly wastes time. You don't use that OoB to your advantage or even intend to do that.

In No S+Q you may accidentally perform a S+Q. It might not save time and is definitely not your intention, but it is not allowed in the category.
In D7 you may accidentally enter the room after the mini boss by jumping and will go all over the map. It's not intended, but it's not allowed in the category.

These were things that were noted very heavily to new runners of the game to ensure they don't do. Just because it was unintentional doesn't mean it should be allowed. If we think that falling into the hole and landing on the grass during Villa Skip constitutes an OOB then we ban it and alert every runner, especially new runners, to pay extra attention during that part of the run.

That is assuming we define it as OOB.

While I don't know much about the technical side of this game as others do, these tricks just feel.. off to me. And not in a way where I don't like them or don't want to do them, they just look so unnatural that I'd have a hard time believing that they're not out of bounds.

But like I said, someone could tell me otherwise with the correct technical proof and I'd buy into it.

Level 2 bracelet skip: for me that is OOB, you clip inside of a wall.

Flame skip 2.0: it does feel like it is an OOB(you walk through a wall and can even get stuck in it).

frog song skip: you do clip through a block, so it does sound like its OOB to me.

Of course they're out of bounds. The actual discussion was about possibly allowing the more minor instances of it into the main route, or if there was interest in consolidating the the categories to add for one that did allow them since the OoB moveset in particular is completely unutilized in any of the current categories.

Here's something different, and I want to know the community input on it.

This was something found on Drenn's stream a while back: If you die, and on the death screen you choose "Save & Quit," your menu cursor stays in the same spot. This cursor will stay in the same spot even if you erase the file and start a new one. In theory, if someone wanted to save a few (2) inputs, he or she could get a file, move the equipment screen cursor somewhere else, and then start a new run. (I can see me doing this for the first equip in D1, which is one I "commonly" mess up).

Since the memory isn't "re-initialized," is this run still valid?  This trick is not very useful, but something I've been pondering.


[FYI: The menu only resets upon S&Q and resets, as far as I know]

Lol, how diabolical. I don't see any reason not to allow it, though due to how annoying it would be for resets I imagine most people wouldn't bother doing it. Anyway it can easily be done on accident (like I did), so it doesn't seem like it should be disallowed.

Interestingly though, this wouldn't be possible under JRTA rules since you need to reset the console.

I think this video is super relevant to this thread: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94OlfZkRp4k

Basically shaq jumping is super-broken now. It would be super cool to have a category using this and more oob tricks, but now I'm definitely less inclined to see a main category with oob tricks :P

There already kinda exists a category that is No WW(allows OoB).

In theory its neat to think about a category that would allow all these cool out of bounds tricks, but really the route just becomes one out of bounds jump after d2 that sends you into the nightmare room so none of the tech is really there because the run is only 20 minutes long.

That and the game has a chance of randomly crashing once you enter the nightmare room, which just makes it incredibly not fun to run.

I'm aware of that category, though I'm thinking of something more along the lines of tompa's definition of "no wrong warp". Where you can't transition between cave systems that shouldn't be connected, so you still need to do all the dungeons. Could be interesting.

Agreed with Drenn 100% in that Tompa's definition of OoB is a lot better. The use of the transition to the Windfish Egg at the end of the current no WW route diminishes the interest and enjoyability of the run a lot, imo. Sticking to only allowing shaq jumping where you cannot use it to transition between dungeons and cave systems that aren't meant to be connected leaves the route as a much more interesting playthrough and puts it in a more unique time span (for LADX categories anyway) of around 30-45 minutes?

I'd actually be really interested in seeing what this category could look like then

For anyone watching this topic, I made a post in the superjump thread with new proposed rules based on a lot of the discussion I read here.
http://forums.zeldaspeedruns.com/index.php?topic=1845.msg30512#msg30512 (http://forums.zeldaspeedruns.com/index.php?topic=1845.msg30512#msg30512)