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Hi, i think the MST runners should decide if they want to allow GIM or not.

Im bad at writing things like this but i guess someone has to do it.


My own opinion: ban it

It is kinda similliar to RBA which is banned, so allowing one of them while banning the other seems silly.  Banning RBA does not make that much sense anymore if you would still requier to get the medallions and stones in the normal way, but i still prefere MST the way it is. RBA and GIM dont really fit into MST. AD is the category for all the crazy glitches and fency stuff, not MST.  The closer these to categorys get, the less reason exists to keep both.

(also i dont like doing GIM, and unless someone comes up with a really smart route that i cant think of (i suck at routing so its possible) it would make the run pretty stupid)

I agree. Allowing GIM and RBA would make MST and AD too similar.

I'm in favor of banning it for MST but allowing it in AD.

I agree as well. Allow it in All Dungeons and MSB, but not MST.

I'm good for banning it in MST

I agree with banning GIM in MST. MST was conceived as a "no large-skip glitches" category, and one of the ideas behind it was that crazy memory-hacking glitches (like RBA) shouldn't be used in it. GIM is similar enough to RBA that, if RBA isn't allowed, GIM shouldn't be either.

If we're still going off of the "no major skips" approach to this category, then we might as well ban WW and DoT skip, but that's an entirely different discussion

If the MST community agrees to ban GIM, you should make it clear in the rules that this category won't allow any form of Item Manipulation (RBA and GIM under one name)

I am in favor of banning GIM in MST. I think it would be strange to ban RBA and allow GIM. And if you allow both RBA and GIM, the route would basically become All Dungeons with Trials. We enjoy not using RBA because it makes for a unique and interesting route. And that's really the reason MST exists, because people find the route fun.

For the time being, I have added a rule that bans GIM in MST. I have a few questions though.

If GIM did not rely heavily on RNG or was easier to perform, or if it worked on n64, would that change your decision?

to answer mzx questions: most likely no

Also even do i appreciate their opinions, most posters except skyknight and me dont really run mst and i would really like to hear the opinions of the other runners (marco, psy, adarax maybe droma greg and zelly)

Yeah, I wouldn't make any final decisions and changes until we hear from more people who run the category. Their input matters the most.

EDIT: Marco can't post here, but he said on Twitter that he agrees for banning this in MST.

I'm still new to running the category, though I plan on taking it seriously for a while. I am for banning GIM in MST.

I am for BANNING GIM in MST as well as keeping RBA unallowed

GIM is still relatively new, and I'm sure more uses will be discovered for it, but looking at the Theoretical List of Attainable Items (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1iC55h-oy3NAIW739yNQ8Cg9QNpDGTyVRys_NLHpnG_o/edit#gid=0) it doesn't seem quite as broken as RBA. Of the items useful to the category, I think I only see Bottle, Light Arrows and Fire Arrows. Bow is theoretically possible, but IDK how you'd get the glitch in the Ice Arrows room. Goron tunic looks possible too, but it isn't useful to the category right now.

I'm no expert by any means, but I dont think the route would change much besides a [potentially] quicker bottle and skipping the (extremely annoying) LACS. Using it for Fire Arrows may be faster overall, since it would let you skip the cutscene after Water Temple, but I havent seen anyone with a setup for them yet.

My vote (if i even get one) is for allowing it.


edit- and to compare this to RBA, you can't use it to get medallions or other goal items. I can understand why RBA should be banned, but I don't see a reason for GIM to be

The thing is... GIM and RBA are both categorized as Item Manipulation, or what I like to call "item-giving glitches." Sure GIM doesn't give medallions and stones, but a new player, or speedrunners outside the OoT community, would find it silly to ban RBA and allow GIM since they both technically fall under the same category of context.

You could also argue that Light Arrows is a goal item, since you need them to beat the trials.

First off, who cares what someone outside the community thinks? They would be the least informed about the topic.


I agree that they are in the same category of glitches, but RBA is not equivalent to GIM. They are different.

The goals for MST according to ZSR Leaderboards are:

Obtain all spiritual stones
Obtain all medallions
Dispel the barrier on Ganon's Castle
Complete the game ("The End")


RBA must be banned because it directly gives medallions without doing the dungeons, which breaks the category. Light arrows are not a goal item, they are a means to an end. If a method to dispel the barrier without Light Arrows was found, it would not be banned because Light arrows aren't a goal.

Criticism from people outside of the community is important. Since their views aren't as biased, they give input that would potentially help a community from being trapped in a mindset of traditional means. (Plus since OoT is one of the most popular games for speedrunning, there are some outsiders who are familiar with it, and have heard of the discovery of the new glitch.) This is why a lot of people wanted to re-define the 100% category to have a more clear and stable definition without having to continuously ban item-giving glitches when a new one gets discovered... because the community realized (after hearing from outsiders) why sticking with a definition made in 2006 wasn't the best decision and why banning glitches is a lazy way to define a category that is based on a goal.

Also... one could argue that it doesn't make sense to allow one and ban the other for the item-giving glitches, but have an all-or-nothing approach for the categories that ban wrong warp, since void warp is banned for those categories as well despite the glitch being inequivalent.

You seem to be forgetting that All Dungeons exists. We can RBA the medallions and stones in that category if we so choose, but we still have to activate the blue warp at the end of the dungeon.

Given that we already have All Dungeons and MSB, I think most people already view MST as MST "no IM".

@Apasher: I don't think it takes an outsider to be unbiased. It just takes critical thinking about whether the decisions are based on objectivity or subjectivity. It is good to hear all points of view, I agree, but I would argue that the more informed you are the better your opinion will be.


@Jbop: Originally I had just assumed (not the best thing to do...) the goal of All Dungeons was along the lines of "Complete all Dungeons that have a blue warp". My assumption isn't far off base, but I was surprised to see it is defined with collecting the stones and medallions as well.

For some reason after reading the definition that way, I am compelled to agree with you guys about having GIM banned in MST. The difference between MST and AD isn't really the goals, but the tricks allowed to be used to accomplish the goals. When I think about it from that perspective it is clearer to me. Sorry for causing such a ruckus :)

I also don't think that a "no large-skip glitches" category like MST should be using glitches that don't work on the original hardware, in case another reason needed to be given besides the fact that GIM is an item-manipulation glitch like RBA.