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Now that people seem to be a bit happier about superswimming directly to Greatfish I took a look at early bombs again and came up with the following route for the early game:

Getting pearls:

- Beat DRC as normal.
- Superswim to Northern Triangle Isle and place pearl.
- Superswim to Greatfish and cancel camera lock.
- Superswim to Windfall and get bombs.
- Superswim to Bird's Peak Rock and get chart.
- Superswim to Forest Haven, beat FH with bombs (this saves ~2:20)
- Superswim west with storage, aimming for Southen Fairy Island but be careful with your speed. I found just above half air meter left works pretty well for avoiding the Ice Ring sea unload but to easily reach SFI.
- Get pearl, then superswim to Southen Triangle Isle and plant the pearl
- Superswim to East Triangle Isle and plant the final pearl.

This route should look something like this:
(http://i.minus.com/jbmp0XJGv1dw8t.png)

Extra time superswimming in the early game is hard to be exact on but between 20-40 seconds.

Collecting and deciphering charts with day/night 1 cycle earlier:

- After beating Wind Temple, warp to Outset.
- Change wind to South and sail to Outset to beat Savage.
- After beating Savage, superswim to Diamond Stepp.
   - The goal here is to get inside the island before it's collision loads and then let the island load and have Link pop up onto the island.
   - To do this you have to superswim through the top of the square to the left of Outset so that the game starts loading that island and Diamond Stepp takes longer to load.
   - Once you are inside the island, pause then buffer L and Up on the control stick (this will immediately reduce Link's speed to zero).
- Get the Ghost Ship chart, savewarp, change wind to NE and sail into the Ghost Ship.
- Once done farming the Ghost Ship, sail north to Needle Rock and get the chart there.
- BoG warp to DRI, superswim to chart.
- BoG warp to SFI, sail NE to Cabana and get chart.
- Superswim to Stonewatcher and get chart.
- Superswim into Islet. Get chart.
- BoG warp to Tingle and dechipher.

This works out being ~30 seconds faster than the current chart collection.

All in all your average time saving over the current route should be   2:00+

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I also tried the possiblity of getting bombs as soon as you get the Wind Waker. This allows you to skip all the cutscenes on the DRC entry saving ~2:30 on Jap, but you'd have to buy a pear (~35), superswim from Windfall to DRI (~40), get a bottle from the sub and then sail to Bomb Island(~1:20), and then after all that get to Medli later in the game (only way I can think to do it is to superswim to Crescent Moon Island, get chest storage while in camera lock there, superswim back and then walk up DRI to her which would take like 1:30 in itself). So yeah, fuck that.

Wait, what exactly triggers Medli to appear later on in the game?

EDIT: Never mind, I misunderstood what you were saying.

EDIT 2: If you can climb up to Medli with chest storage, then why don't people do that currently to get up to Medli faster using the 200 rupee chest on DRI? Or is the climb slow?

While bombs early might sound enticing, the boomerang is useful enough throughout the game (especially in Savage Labyrinth) that this route would save a lot less time than you would think. Also, since the day/night cycle gets screwed up with this route, it means that we would need a slower route to make this work, making bombs early too slow in general.

You still get the boomerang with this route. I don't even think it's possible to skip the boomerang.

By the way, how many places does having bombs save time in Forbidden Woods anyway? I guess with the new bomb tech for storage you can get chest storage in the room next to the boss door instead of the room with the Morths. Also you can obviously use them to blow up plant covered doors.

EDIT: Heh, I suppose with the new bomb tech, you could even get storage off the boomerang chest to skip the chest opening animation for the boomerang  ;D

EDIT 2: If the day/night cycle is still a problem in this route, you could probably take the extra time to get Song of Passing right after Ballad of Gales and still save some time overall.

Ok, came up with a route for the end game that lets you maintain the time saved.

As you activate endless night early, the day/night cycle is one day earlier for the rest of the game. This means that for the two nights you get inbetween returning from hyrule 2 and deciphering the charts, the ghost ship is at Diamond Stepp and Bomb island repsctively. Farming at Diamond Steppe is faster than Bomb Island.

At Diamond Stepp, each reload is 4 seconds slower than Spectacle, so 28 seconds more for 7 reloads.
Sailing from Outset to Diamond Steppe takes 1:20, 30 seconds more than sailing from Needle rock in current route.
Getting into the ghost ship for the first time from Windfall takes 30 seconds to warp, and 50 seconds to superswim in. It takes 15 seconds to sail into the Ghost Ship after getting the chart.

28 + 30 - 30 - 50 + 15 = 7 seconds faster.

It's a bit more complicated, however, as getting to Outset for Savage currently uses a superswim which is 15 seconds faster than warping there, so it's more like 8 seconds slower to use this route. Putting this all together, the average saving with early bombs should still be ~1:30, so it's worth it.

Some fights are going to be a bit slower without the boomerang but arrows/hookshot are generally a decent alternative.

End Game:

- Warp to Outset after beating the Wind Temple.
- Beat Savage Labrinth.
- Sail North-West to Diamond Stepp, be careful to avoid the Giant Octo.
- Get the Ghost Ship Chart and then farm the Ghost Ship.
- Warp to DRI and then collect the remainder of the charts as normal up until Needle Rock.
- Warp to Tingle Island and dechipher charts.

http://www.zeldaspeedruns.com/tww/item-skip/boomerang

This is an interesting route idea, I will take a look at it. I was also thinking about superswim to Diamond Steppe to the ghost ship but I forgot about that you need the ghost ship chart first lol. Also the route after Diamond Steppe should not be the same, getting the chart at Needle rock should probably be alot better for example.

Welp, that's what I get for thinking I know shit about this game.

Very cool that we're actually looking into this route. Everyone who I've talked to before has said that the bombs early route is slower, but it seems ridiculous to say that when skipping the boomerang cuts out 2.5 min of gameplay. I'm guessing that to make this as efficient as possible we have to restructure a lot of the route after WT so that the day/night cycle is as fast as possible. Overall I would think that bombs early could be a minute faster.

This is the list why I think this is a end of discussion route!

1: To many far superswims that take alot of Charging, the current route has fewer superswims that are faster! Alot of islands that will unload your water is way to slow to recharge your superswim once again. We got the superswim from Windfall to Bird's Peak Rock you were talking about (that has the possibility to unload the water of Fire Mountain, we will need to get double storage of beedle at Forest Haven with beedle ship with only 3 textboxes from KoRL (with a bumpy beedle boat no Thanks)

2: Day and Night cycle route will be stupid and to slow (getting the Song of Passing is bullshit)

3: Yes there is a new way to get easier to dry storage with bombs, but that wont help because we still need the Boomerang for Savage Labyrinth (its alot of time save because of that part)

4: Killing Kalle Demos with Bombs is a slower than actually doing it with Boomerang and 4 quickspin!

5: End of discussion please!

Hey now, let's be willing to try radical ideas rather than just dismissing them. Frankly I'd be really excited if any% could incorporate some low% strats just to show off how broken the game really is in terms of skipping items and activating major plot events out of sequence. That's the one thing any% is missing, and why the TAS route is so cool. Also, many of the points you made have already been addressed. Unless it costs more than 1.5 minutes overall to skip boomerang strats and do rupee farming in a different spot, any time saved is time saved.

And yeah, Song of Passing would probably take roughly 1.5 minutes to get and play twice, so it's likely not worth it.

You might be right though, maybe I'm just being too hopeful...  :(

I think it's too early to dismiss a route until we know for sure that it's slower. First of all, using the boomerang in Savage saves time, but not a significant amount of time since the boomerang is only used on a few floors. Second of all, I'm sure that there's a way to adjust this route so that it works with the day night cycle, especially since we now have storage with bombs that lets us superswim almost anywhere. Until we time a full bombs early route, there's no reason not to take some time to investigate this.

My concern is day/night. The way time passes inside buildings/dungeons is wonky. Only passes between certain times, then pauses. Iirc, from 06:00-12:00 and 18:00-00:00 (or something like that. basically from early morn/night to late morn/night). If it lines up wrong, it wouldn't work.

Concerning rang, Kalle Demos with bombs is slower by a little bit, and tougher. When timing Forbidden Woods, don't use Mugg's TAS as that's not realistic. Rang does save a decent amount of time, but so does skipping it.

All I can say is do a run (maybe mildly segmented) to get a good understanding of day/night with that route.

Oh, and I wouldn't count on doing delivery bag skip.

I got round to playing through the route to test timing of the Day/Night cycle and everything works fine. You have enough night left after getting the Ghost Ship chart to do ~12 Ghost Ship runs. I've finalised the route below (the one I used and tested) and have made some changes which save more time.

Sailing to Needle rock from Diamond step saves 25 seconds (00:42 vs 1:07). Unfortunatly, the wind has to be set to NE at Diamond Stepp which means sailing to Cabana from SFI, 15 seconds slower (1:09 vs 00:54). The new superswim onto Diamond Stepp puts the travel time on par with sailing from Needle Rock in the current route.

All of this means that if you're able to do all this without any major fuck ups, the end game route with early bombs will save ~30 more seconds.

Now before anyone starts freaking out again about not having the boomerang or other things, I'll address some of you concerns:

1. The boomerang is really not that useful in Savage. Peahats can be taken down as quick if not quicker with arrows, Boko Babas take 2 pokes with the Hookshot, Keese are easily dispatched with an overhead slash and killing Moblins without stunning them is one of the easiest things in all the great sea. At most you might loss 5-10 seconds on average from a lack of boomerang.
2. I factored killing Kalle Demos with bombs into my orignal timing of FW (which I did myself rather than using a TAS route). Killing Kalle takes 15 seconds longer than a perfect 2 throw Boomerang fight and I didn't find killing Kalle with just 4 bombs too difficult (3rd try when timing).
3. From testing the early game route, the superswim from Windfall to Bird's Peak never gets a Fire Mountain unload (you're just not in the square long enough). Avoiding the unload from Ice Ring is trickier but I was able to get a pretty consistent slower superswim to SFI.


Actual End Game:
- After beating Wind Temple, warp to Outset.
- Change wind to South and sail to Outset to beat Savage.
- After beating Savage, superswim to Diamond Stepp.
   - The goal here is to get inside the island before it's collision loads and then let the island load and have Link pop up onto the island.
   - To do this you have to superswim through the top of the square to the left of Outset so that the game starts loading that island and Diamond Stepp takes longer to load.
   - Once you are inside the island, pause then buffer L and Up on the control stick (this will immediately reduce Link's speed to zero).
- Get the Ghost Ship chart, savewarp, change wind to NE and sail into the Ghost Ship.
- Once done farming the Ghost Ship, sail north to Needle Rock and get the chart there.
- BoG warp to DRI, superswim to chart.
- BoG warp to SFI, sail NE to Cabana and get chart.
- Superswim to Stonewatcher and get chart.
- Superswim into Islet. Get chart.
- BoG warp to Tingle and dechipher.

I am sure that skipping the boomerang will save some time, but i don't agree whit the times you provided.

 I'am almost 100% sure you will lose more than 10 sec in the savage without boomerang, besides that if you are lucky at Kalle Demos with a 1 throw boomerang, how much faster will it be than the bombs?

Also if you are "unlucky" (fucked up)  the mini boss in the WindTemple, the boomerang will make it easier to kill the mobs.
Furthermore i think the boomerang will perhaps save a sec for other fights that are getting messed up.

All with all i think that skipping the boomerang is indeed faster, but i got my doubts about how much.
 

The good thing is, we can try to find more timesavers now :D

Can you use a Tingle Balloon to get the wallet on Outset without the leaf? It would make the superswims a lot easier/faster if you could.

99% sure that that's possible.
Are you thinking DR -> n triangle -> greatfish -> windfall -> outset -> s triangle -> forest haven -> brids peak -> e triangle?
Fun idea. The only problem would be that you can't get the big wallet without bombs or does a tingle bomb work there?
Would getting that wallet when you do savage be an option?

Sadly, getting into KoRL at Outset before beating FW triggers the "you should travel directly to your next destination" KoRL sequence. As such, you can't get Naryu's pearl from Jabun before beating FW.

Well that sucks. Could you maybe store that?
Or is there maybe a way to bomb the stone wall from above instead of with korls canon? Probably not but I had to ask. :D

Demon does a bomb storage superswim from Gale island -> Overlook. This makes the old route save more time than before, which makes bombs early a bit less inviting.

He also does one from Shark Island -> Needle Rock for the JP chart chain, but that should be the same in your route I think.

It also kinda sucks that you need to change to S wind to go from Outset water -> Outset, lol. how obnoxious, considering the Wind was already NE before it was changed. This is like 30 seconds of wind changing so that you can sail south from the warp point to the island.

Yeah the wind thing is pretty annoying. Compared to the current route it's the same number of wind changes, but it's still an ugly way to spend time in a run. It may be possible to worm your way to Outset a little faster than two wind changes; though, I think NE wind couldn't be worse for that sailing segment.

I'm hoping that the route I provided at least demonstrates that Bombs Early does save a significant portion of time, and that, because of this, better routes may be worked out in the future.

I'm definitely looking into this route seriously for the first time in months now because you've provided a pretty compelling argument.

If this turns out to be at least just as fast (I still don't see how this is faster), then I guess the Greatfish superswim being earlier in the run is pretty cool. A bunch of additional superswims means a bunch of additional risk, but I'm all for going faster no matter what, so if there is some concrete evidence about this being faster, then great! I recognize your name Matti, you've previously made a video on how to skip the Wind Temple boss key with storage, something that went unused for months (albeit in a different manner now). So I trust your name and trust your judgement.

http://youtu.be/nLDWGOzobXQ Everything that you need to know is in the description.

Came up with a route that makes delivery bag skip faster on all versions (requires Tuner):

- After getting the Wind Waker superswim south to the submarine (it's pretty much right in the center of the Bomb Island square). Avoiding the Fire Mountain unload is a bitch. Maybe those with faster Hardware than me (launch GNC) will find it easier but I couldn't do it consistently so the timing includes it.
- Get bottle from Sub and savewarp.
- Sail to Bomb island and collect water as you climb up the coast. Get storage and superswim in the direction of DRI.
- Charge it enough to get the unload at Fire Mountain then damage yourself on Fire Mountain as you charge to superswim into the DRI quadrant.
- Drown to respawn on the DRI coast.

Timed at 3:42

- Call Tingle, take whatever damage you need to get to 1/4 hearts then do Zephos Skip.
- Use a Tingle Bomb at the Shrine to start a hover, aimming for the upper balcony.
- Enter Dragon Roost, roll of the edge and drop down to enter the Spring from the bottom entrance.
- Pour water onto Bomb Flower, blow up rock with Bomb Flower, enter DRC.

Timed at 2:44 (Removed time to call Tingle as old route has to do that in DRC).
Total 6:26

This is 38 seconds faster than current route which I timed at 7:04 (getting the Grappling Hook at Night also look awesome).

The reason I'm posting this here is that, due to the extra time spent in the ocean with this route, it's night by time you superswim to Greatfish - meaning the day/night cycle is one later - meaning you can do the old end game route and save 30 more seconds.

This sounds cool Im going to test it right now!

oh my god this is genius

Matti is this timing for the JP version?

I timed my route on Eng, and used the time for the old route from your 4:31:03 (minus a bit of time for rock skip mistakes), so this would save more time on Eng too.

So I did some timing together with WooferZfg on this new route on skipping delivery bag that Matti came up with and basiclly this is the spreadsheet of the  timings between Old route and skipping Delivery bag(new route)!

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqTDPuo42_PSdDBYeDRxdWtIWHJuVVpIOUlCXzlNT2c#gid=0

I did some major mistakes but it still ended up with beign around a minute faster with the new route!

Whats cool with this new route that we will be using the old route once again with Ghost Ship, so dont need to go over to Bomb Island and farm the rupees in the late game. We will have to do what we used to do in the old route by letting the day pass at Bomb Isle before we charge up our superswim back over to Dragon Roost Isle. With this meaning we will be able to save another 30 seconds later at Ghost Ship! So this around a 1minute and 30 seconds in total time saving.

another cool part about this route is that this route will make low% even more faster, because we dont have to do the bottle skip (as we got bombs instead to bomb the boulder instead, aswell you can now do the Silver rupee strat instead while climbing up to Medlii when visiting Dragon Roost Isle for Earth Temple part!

But you can't use the normal bombs to bomb the rock?

Also great route, amazing job on that!

ah damn, did not know that :-(

Questions,
what is this new bomb dry storage method people are mentioning?

Is cosmo still uploading his video of the 4:31:xx wr, how was this not sub 4:30. was it this route?

this route happened just after i watched through cosmo's 4:32:26 wr vid and wrote down the route, lol

i dont know how much of this will be possible in WWHD since the main reason the greatfish SS is possible is because we abuse the slow loading of the island which happens before the cutscene can load. the WiiU will likely be able to load it even with a fast and accurate SS before we reach land. although i like how you slow the loading of diamond step by entering into the quadrant under it, does this method could help us with getting into greatfish by approaching from somewhere other than tingle island?

Jumpslash onto ledge, drop bomb, turn around, pull out Wind Waker, run into bomb, get Wind Waker Dive, cancel + storage.


Yes, he's uploading the video of the record. It was bombs early, but it didn't include the Delivery Bag Skip Matti found yesterday.


WWHD loads the entire ocean at all times. So no more Greatfish SS (the cutscene will instantly load)

How do you avoid the Fire mountain reload while superswimming to the Sub?

Are load times affected? My wii is quite old so I don't know if that affects it.

Yes, old Wii's and GC's make it harder to superswim past Fire Mountain without getting the reload. So just get a newer Wii, lol

There is a way around this, you can pause for a sec before you enter to the Fire Mountain "Zone" so the island can load normally.

For no Tuner, for anyone who wants Yashi's WR, although you can't skip the Delivery Bag, you can still skip the Medli Bottle. This is really only worth it on the English version, but it's still faster on both versions.

On English: saves about 0:50 + 30 seconds at Ghost Ship
On Japanese: saves about 0:15 + 30 seconds at Ghost Ship

Route:
-Get the Wind Waker.
-Do Zephos Skip.
-Get Storage off the edge facing the left pillar near Zephos (if you fail storage, strafe right, climb the ledge, and strafe back to the storage spot, as this is the fastest way to retry storage)
-Get Camera Lock and strafe into the water. When you start superswimming, you'll have 1-2 seconds to charge up with constant air refills before you sploosh, so you should shoot yourself away after about 1-2 seconds.
-Superswim to the submarine and get the submarine bottle.
-Savewarp, sail to Bomb Island, get water in your bottle when you reach the island.

Now here's where it gets tricky. Since you want to save 30 seconds at Ghost Ship, you want to arrive at Dragon Roost after it turns night. So since you have to wait for it to turn night, you may as well change the wind to South since you have to do that later anyways.

-Do a Wind Waker dive and get storage but don't cancel the Wind Waker. Instead, play Wind's Requiem and change the Wind to South. Since you change the wind using the glitched Wind Waker state, the in-game time will continue to pass.
-Do another Wind Waker dive, get storage, and cancel it this time.
-Roll over to the area near the vines, get Camera Lock, and sidehop into the water.
-Superswim to Dragon Roost. You can either drown in the quadrant or reach the island. Unlike the Delivery Bag skip, it does not matter if you drown or not because you already did Zephos Skip and do not need KoRL.
-Do Rock Skip, talk to Quill, get Delivery Bag.
-Roll right to the DRC entrance and pour water on the bomb flower right away.
-Pick up bomb, blow up rock, beat DRC with the chest storage route (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-glNEmtaPI)

How about getting bombs before DRC and chest storage to skip delivery bag? Could potentially mean you can delay getting the submarine bottle until after DRC as well. Bombs does help quite a lot in DRC but it does mean you have to go to Northern Triangle Island twice.

Will probably screw up the day for ghost ship though.

that's what low% does and it's really slow

I know low% does that. Why is it slower than what you're suggesting though? Because I don't see a reason why it would be. You go out of your way with 1 superswim to place the pearl but you replace the superswim to go out of your way to get bottle. You skip Delivery bag cutscene and you save time inside DRC. Quite a lot as well, especially if you're not using the chest storage route.

the only way to get chest storage with early bombs is to use the boat. to get in the boat you have to swim away from windfall and drown (30 seconds) + sail to dragon roost (1 minute). also if you get chest storage then you don't have a chest for later to climb up to medli, so you'll have to use a chest somewhere else? i really don't see how it would be faster.

I can't stop splooshing at the fire mountain in the english version. I watched cosmo do the swim and he swims right through the quadrant without splooshing. Is there a version difference?? I know greatfish island loads quicker in english version, and if that goes for all islands than maybe the fire mountain loads too quick as well so i sploosh.

Just how do I not sploosh when SS'ing through fire mountain?

do you have a black wii? i doubt there's a version difference, but just aim a bit more east to not sploosh (though it makes the superswim harder)

I use a White Wii I got in 2008. Also, It seems that no matter how far to the east or west of the fire mountain I swim, as long as its somewhere in the quadrant I will sploosh.

I think the faster your wii's laser reads the game disc, the less likely you are to sploosh there. If you pause right before you would sploosh it gives the game more time to load the quadrant so consider doing that

So I tested this a bunch. Basically, I paused the game right before I sploosh each time and one time I paused for 6 seconds and I didn't sploosh. Another time I paused right before splooshing so I sat on the pause menu for about 15 seconds and I did sploosh. + I tested other times and it seems very random and not reliable at all whether the quadrant loads or not.

Forgot to answer this earlier but there's a chest on Crescent Moon Island. Not ideal but you can get storage easily with bomb method of the chest. You kind of need to get double storage if you want to superswim away from there though which you can get with help from the guy with telescope.

This doesn't really seem worth it if you're gonna get bombs before DRC unless you use a route different from the low% route (though I don't see how else to get the chest on Dragon Roost except with a hyoi pear, which is slow)

Sorry Seronei, I was wrong lol. Here's No Tuner Delivery Bag Skip (probably only faster on English, if at all)

Get Wind Waker
Superswim to Bomb Island Submarine, get Bottle
Save Warp, get Water in Bottle, Superswim to Greatfish, stopping at S. Triangle on the way
Superswim to Windfall, get Bombs
Superswim to Crescent Moon Island
Kill chus with bombs, get Double Storage using bombs and telescope guy for text (has only 1, quick textbox, so press B quickly after getting storage)
Open chest and superswim in the dark to Dragon Roost
Use chest storage to sidehop into Quill cutscene (Something like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekzBsNBb2AA but ledge clip instead of precise jump)
Enter inside of Dragon Roost, grab ledge and go to DRC entrance
Pour water on bomb flower, blow up rock, enter DRC
Complete first two rooms in DRC normally
Throw bomb to blow up rock while heading toward the block on the left side, pull out block all the way
Head back towards the rock you just blew up, enter door, get small key
Do the rest of DRC with chest storage route

EDIT: Here's a video of the route from the Bomb Island Submarine to Grappling Hook - http://www.twitch.tv/wooferzfg1/c/3234377

I have a question about this route. Why do you take the bottle if you can use bomb instead to break the rock ? You can take the bottle later like on the way to FW.

IIRC only bomb flowers work on that rock

Yep