Author Topic: 100% definition  (Read 48922 times)

Offline EverAlert

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Re: 100% definition
« Reply #80 on: December 11, 2011, 04:50:22 PM »
Maybe they use a different randomiser for Hero and Normal modes?
I will laugh though if the seed is simply the first boss you pick. Painfully simple method of randomising.

Offline Matt23488

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Re: 100% definition
« Reply #81 on: December 12, 2011, 02:12:53 PM »
I don't think the seed is ENTIRELY the first boss you pick, because I usually pick Imprisoned 3 as the first fight, since it's really the only one that will cause me to fail, if I'm wrong when I choose to wait for Groose instead of skydiving for phase 2. However, I do think it may have some effect on which bosses come after.

Offline ArthurDent

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Re: 100% definition
« Reply #82 on: December 28, 2011, 06:23:40 AM »
To make thing very simple we can say that 100% is everything of upgrades and tasks. In some game, maybe this one, it may be inconveniently long and boring. So it may be hard to make fully  completion of some games suitable in a speed run format. People who think a clearly defined draft for 100% run sounds boring doesn't need to do such a run, nor watch such a run of considerable longevity.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2011, 06:27:54 AM by ArthurDent »

Offline fury

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Re: 100% definition
« Reply #83 on: January 08, 2012, 07:06:19 AM »
Noob here, so please forgive if I hit any nerves, just figured I'd throw in a few cents into the fairy fountain

I say that since the time saved between NG+ over Normal is so minimal when considering that this will probably end up being a 5-7 hour run, we should just not have normal and NG+ categories, similar to how no one gives a damn about MQ any%

So, this is about where I think things should be at...
  • Timing starts as soon as you gain control of Link, to accommodate the possibility that Normal somehow ends up being the faster game.
  • Hero Mode starts off with 0 bugs / treasures (easy to set up)
  • All dowsing targets must be enabled
  • At least one of each bug/treasure must be obtained
  • All Goddess Chests must be opened
  • All items that can't be sold at the item check (not counting potions) must be obtained
  • Every item that must be obtained is upgraded to their maximum power
  • Must finish the game with 20 Heart containers?
  • The largest wallet (9900 rupees) must be obtained

I agree with 0 bugs/treasures. Kind of a cheap shortcut to start a "100%" already having enough treasures from the previous save to upgrade everything. Although running through an area specifically to grind them out is boring, I think it might be kind of neat to see if & how collecting them can be integrated into the main run itself (e.g. grabbing a few tumbleweeds while running through the desert to do the things there). Fastest hero time without having to collect treasures would be significantly shorter and not quite representative of the time in which a 100% run could be done (who knows how much time was spent grinding treasures before saving to hero mode?). If anything, starting hero mode with enough treasures would be another category, since it could be way shorter.

Also concur with not requiring the buyable shields/ammo upgrades. I never considered Medigoron's Sword as part of 100% in OoT when Biggoron's Sword is superior, so I think the only shield upgrade needed is to the Hylian shield. I don't see why you should waste treasures on upgrading inferior shields or ammo capacity. Those things are only for people like me who aren't pro at the game and keep missing the target and breaking their shield. Like potions.

Something I just thought of for the Hylian shield boss battle - if your pouch is full it gets sent to item check. Does "having" it mean that you have it ON you, or is leaving it in item check fine? Probably a negligible difference since you go back to the item check frequently anyway (to talk to your darling :P).

The only thing I don't agree with in this list: Dowsing targets are of dubious value. Sometimes the game doesn't even give you all of them (I never got the one for the gratitude crystals, don't know why, but had to find them myself).


Offline UchihaSasuke

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Re: 100% definition
« Reply #84 on: January 08, 2012, 12:51:43 PM »
0 bugs/treasures is a bad move since 100% in hero mode is already a new game+ type of save.

if you want to do 100% and start with 0 bugs/treasures, do it in normal mode.
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Offline Tamis

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Re: 100% definition
« Reply #85 on: January 08, 2012, 02:33:07 PM »
0 bugs/treasures is a bad move since 100% in hero mode is already a new game+ type of save.

if you want to do 100% and start with 0 bugs/treasures, do it in normal mode.

The only advantage of a hero mode with no bugs or treasures is the cutscene skipping and the quicker skyward strike... The cutscene skipping is mostly why the game is being speed ran in hero mode I guess, so that only leaves a minor difference.

Offline TimpZ

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Re: 100% definition
« Reply #86 on: February 01, 2012, 01:51:33 PM »
I dunno why you're talking about hero mode... That would be a completely different category wouldn't it? Fresh file: 0% -> 100%. Hero mode: Exploit it as much as possible and go from X% -> 100%. Possible separate category would be Hero mode low% -> 100%. This would also accomodate for the "control of link" timing thing which I don't like for some reason.

Collecting one of each for the "collection" screen unlocks a picture and some information. Kind of like scanning in metroid prime if you ask me, so I think that would be a requirement. Saying "they're just icons" is like saying additional bottles or stone of agony in OoT are redundant because they don't add to gameplay (a new bottle doesn't add anything other than an additional slot, just like the pouches and SoA require hardware modification or isn't available on all versions) and they're "just icons".

Cubes... Nintendo made it a challenge to find them and that should be motivation enough for 100%. At the very least, the routes for activating them should be interesting enough to watch (which is what we're going after?). But opening all the chests would just be pointless and tedious and as an analogy, after collecting 100 skulltulas you're not required to collect rupees from the father, right? And the icons are just that: just icons on the map screen! Map screen =/= inventory.

I think unlocking all the save points should be a requirement because you gain the ability to warp to different zones, sort of how Link gains abilities from the wolf in TP if you ask me.

Gaining 4 adventure pouches should also be a requirement simply because of the menu system. But when it comes to bomb upgrades and stuff... I'm like Ani here. One fully upgraded of all or none at all, but I slightly favour the first one just because it seems right (for historical reasons :p). But only hylian shield because it's "the best".

Medals are like potions only that you can use them whenever you like for no additional cost. But Lon Lon Milk in MM isn't part of 100% is it? So I vote no.




So here's a defining moment: All icons which would mean you have to do everything possible about any icons in the inventory screen including the map screen which would mean all dungeon maps, chests etc in the game. Or ignore the map screen since they're on different buttons which means skipping maps and chests (including stone chests). HOWEVER; warps is an intrinsic unavoidable feature of the game and therefore warps should still be required even if you ignore the map screen.

Lets say we choose "only all icons in the inventory". Then we have to define if only static icons or are you required to have all of the icons in your inventory at some point. Technically that would require 0-99 or 999 or however many things you can collect, including different colours (green for full) but I guess we can ignore that. Either way, is it agreed upon that if all, then only the maximum/best would be required?


Someone needs to put the hammer down on some of these things and start defining...
Why does adult Link have an earring?
Quote from: CinnabonChan
Because Rauru's a pervert. Leave a priest alone with a young boy in a seven year coma, who gradually grows into a handsome young man?

Yeah, that will end well. I'm pretty sure Rauru has a stack of kinky outfits he dressed Link in

Offline Roadagain

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Re: 100% definition
« Reply #87 on: February 02, 2012, 10:29:13 PM »
But TimpZ, there is difference between Skulltulas (On which note, I believe it was mentioned to not compare to other games because dtuff) and the Goddess Chests. Outside the map, if you don't have them all, the game will tell you so, IIRC, via your inventory.

Offline TheOthin

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Re: 100% definition
« Reply #88 on: February 03, 2012, 02:31:15 AM »
But TimpZ, there is difference between Skulltulas (On which note, I believe it was mentioned to not compare to other games because dtuff) and the Goddess Chests. Outside the map, if you don't have them all, the game will tell you so, IIRC, via your inventory.
Indeed. As mentioned earlier, checking the Goddess Cube Dowsing option only gives the completion message after not only activating the chests, but opening them.

Offline TimpZ

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Re: 100% definition
« Reply #89 on: February 03, 2012, 02:58:53 PM »
I was not aware of that (I havn't actually completed the game yet). But apparently it's a dowsing target you can obtain and if we're going to obtain all those + clearing them then I don't really see why not collecting all of them  instead of only the interesting ones wouldn't be part of 100%. It is 100% for a reason...

But we have to compare with something. Otherwise it'd be like describing quantum mechanics without classical physics models. I.e. almost impossible...
Why does adult Link have an earring?
Quote from: CinnabonChan
Because Rauru's a pervert. Leave a priest alone with a young boy in a seven year coma, who gradually grows into a handsome young man?

Yeah, that will end well. I'm pretty sure Rauru has a stack of kinky outfits he dressed Link in

Offline Abahbob

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Re: 100% definition
« Reply #90 on: February 06, 2012, 04:25:53 PM »
Very nice metaphor or whatever. Even though quantum breaks or bends rules of conventional physics, it's a separate set of rules. But it's all physics.
I still vouch for all cubes and chests. And idk all of tww rules, but I don't really like comparisons between the two. I'll do one 100% run after we settle this all.

Offline GeneraLight

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Re: 100% definition
« Reply #91 on: February 11, 2012, 06:24:29 PM »
  • Main Quest completed
  • 20 Hearts (18 Hearts + 2 Life Medals equipped)
  • 80 Gratitude Crystals and Skyloft's curse broken
  • All items and fully upgraded
  • All Goddess Walls and Stones appeared (Moonlight Merchant too)
  • All logs in Faron Woods pushed over and all other shortcuts opened
  • 9900 Rupees (Tycoon Wallet + 900 Capacity Upgrade)
  • All chests opened and one-time appearance Rupees obtained
  • All Goddess Cubes struck and Goddess Chests opened
  • All dowsing targets
  • All dungeons 100% completed
  • All medals acquired
  • 8 Adventure Pouches
  • 5 Bottles
  • x99 of all Bugs and Treasures
  • 999:59 Playtime
  • All scannable enemies @ end game have been defeated 999 times and "Very Strong" reading
  • Beaten Peter's Clean Cut record of 43
  • 1000+ in Pumpkin Pull


« Last Edit: February 11, 2012, 06:27:50 PM by GeneraLight »
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Offline Abahbob

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Re: 100% definition
« Reply #92 on: February 11, 2012, 08:26:01 PM »
Oh god GeneralLight, you have some mighty high standards...

Offline TimpZ

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Re: 100% definition
« Reply #93 on: February 13, 2012, 04:22:12 AM »
    • 999:59 Playtime

    That'd be a fun speedrun to watch  ::)
    Why does adult Link have an earring?
    Quote from: CinnabonChan
    Because Rauru's a pervert. Leave a priest alone with a young boy in a seven year coma, who gradually grows into a handsome young man?

    Yeah, that will end well. I'm pretty sure Rauru has a stack of kinky outfits he dressed Link in

    pivotguyDC1

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    Re: 100% definition
    « Reply #94 on: March 24, 2012, 10:20:20 PM »
    1.)At least one of every shield, fully upgraded.
    2.)All B items, fully upgraded
    3.)Maximum Dowsing Targets (exception: Sidequest Targets like Unidentified Plant etc)
    4.)At least one bomb bag, quiver, and seed bag fully upgraded.
    5.)Every Medal. Even the duplicate ones. *
    6.)Every Goddess Cube Treasure opened (you get the Confirmation Screen)*
    7.)Have/Had at least one of every insect and treasure. (This turns the icon silhouettes into full-color pictures)
    8.)Every sidequest finished.*
    9.)Every Rupee bag upgrade (Beedle's bags and Batreaux's "over 9000 bag")*
    10.)All Gratitude Crystals*
    11.)All bottles (put one of each potion in each bottle, then fully upgrade it)*
    12.)All Pieces of Heart/Heart Containers
    13.)All Adventure Pouches
     *some steps may lead to or require the completion of another.

    Should Hero Mode be optional?
    If we do it, it makes step 7 easier. And 1, 2, 8, 11, and 12 become somewhat easier in that respect. But the entirety of the game just LONGER.
    If we don't, that shaves a lot of time off our shoulders.

    Also, when did I ever become part of the ZSR clique?  ???



    « Last Edit: March 24, 2012, 10:24:53 PM by pivotguyDC1 »

    Offline Razor7581

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    Re: 100% definition
    « Reply #95 on: March 25, 2012, 05:39:20 AM »
    I think we should keep this relatively simple:

    - All hearts
    - All items & Upgrades: Bottles, Shields, Medals, Wallets, Adventure Pouches, etc.
    - All Goddess Cubes & Chests
    - And--duh--all dungeons completed*

    *Not 100%, just the dungeon item, boss beaten, and heart container obtained. This should be pretty well covered by requiring all items and all hearts.

    I don't see why we need to make Skyward Sword 100% so much bigger and "requirement-heavy" than every other 100% that has come before it.
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    pivotguyDC1

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    Re: 100% definition
    « Reply #96 on: March 25, 2012, 11:39:27 PM »
    Sidequests as well? Just seems like we could be able to achieve some of these items without Gratitude Crystals or upgrades some time in the future.
    Idk.

    Offline TestRunner

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    Re: 100% definition
    « Reply #97 on: March 28, 2012, 09:48:52 AM »
    Wow this is taking forever to be resolved. Obviously not everyone will ever agree.

    Why is anyone talking about normal mode? Do you honestly want to watch over 2 hours of cutscenes? Theoretically, I guess if you want an uncontested world record...

    Bugs/treasues? NG+? Seriously? Hero mode is just different. Do you want to not use skyward strike or not skip cutscenes? Use what you have, there's no reason to limit yourself, especially when talking about 100%.
    if you want to do 100% and start with 0 bugs/treasures, do it in normal mode.
    Agreed.

    Basically 100% should be like in other games. Everything finite that can be in your inventory screen:
    • All dowsing targets
    • 8 adventure slots
    • All B-Items
    • All Goddess Chests must be opened
    • All medals
    • Hylian Shield
    • All bottles
    • 9900 wallet
    • All Heart pieces/containers
    • Obviously, beat the game
    If you require things not in the inventory, you open a whole can of stupid worms. Talk to everyone, watch every cutscene, get every Fi text (including hints and advice), open every chest, land at every statue, etc. Put it this way, 100% in Metroid does not include scans, only that you've obtained every significant item.

    FYI, when you are in the Sky, the dowsing for Goddess Cubes is replaced with Goddess Chests.

    For ammo/shield/potion upgrades, I'd go with no. It's not that they are boring to get, it's just extremely arbitrary. It's like requiring to get every bug or every rupee. If you can get an unlimited number of something, there's no reason to require it. As it has been stated over and over; it's all or nothing. For B-Items upgrades, I'm not so sure. Still seems arbitrary to upgrade them, but those are finite, so I'd go either way but leaning towards upgrading.

    As for timing, I'd prefer to start from file start. It's silly to start when you gain control for the reason to make it the same as normal mode. If you do that, you might as well not count any cutscenes. Enjoy timing that >_>. Something that has come up is ending time. Should the time end when you land the final blow on Demise (Like in boss rush) or should it be the last point of significant input (when you move the wiimote to start the final blow). I know it's like a 2 second difference, but someone had asked me about it. I prefer when the blow actually lands, not when you do the input.
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    Offline gamestabled

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    Re: 100% definition
    « Reply #98 on: March 28, 2012, 11:05:55 AM »
    Something that has come up is ending time. Should the time end when you land the final blow on Demise (Like in boss rush) or should it be the last point of significant input (when you move the wiimote to start the final blow). I know it's like a 2 second difference, but someone had asked me about it. I prefer when the blow actually lands, not when you do the input.

    I think technically timing should end on final input, because it is the final manipulation by the player (and consistent with other games). However, it's so little time out of such a long category, it probably won't even matter. You can stop it later, then subtract your ~2 seconds after.
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    Offline Blackrazgriz

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    Re: 100% definition
    « Reply #99 on: July 09, 2012, 10:54:45 AM »
    Guys, while you have been arguing about the definition of 100% A record has already been broken 3 times. Indykenobi currently has the 100% WR using his own definition. This is what he thinks 100% is:



    Well, there isn't one currently agreed upon. The definition I used for my 100% RTA includes the following:
    - All Heart Pieces
    - All Goddess Cubes and Chests
    - All Gratitude Crystals
    - All Medals
    - All Bottles
    - All Pouch/Wallet upgrades
    - All B-items, fully upgraded
    - All dowsing options
    - Hylian Shield

    Things I didn't get:
    - Shield/ammo/potion upgrades
    - Dungeon maps
    - Non-goddess chests
    - Bird statues

    Any/all of these could be debated, but I wanted to start working, and this seemed like the place to start.



    I agree with him on his "Didn't Get" list. Shields Can be bought at an infinite quantity, so it's really doesn't matter whether or not you get the upgrades for them, and so are ammo and potions. Dungeon maps are not necessary for beating the game, you can bypass many chests because they contain rupees and the Bird Statues are just Save points and landmarks. The only thing up for debate is Shield/ammo/potion upgrades, but like I said, you can purchase them at an infinite quantity, so you can get an infinite amount of those upgrades.  And by infinite, I meant how much space is available in the Item Check Girl place...

    Offline TestRunner

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    Re: 100% definition
    « Reply #100 on: July 09, 2012, 11:39:57 AM »
    Note: He also didn't get bugs and treasures.
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    Offline Blackrazgriz

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    Re: 100% definition
    « Reply #101 on: July 09, 2012, 01:05:30 PM »
    If you want a true to the bone definition of 100%, then you have to play the game on normal mode. Which would take hours more then his original run. It wouldn't be considered a speedrun (but then again, it would. speedrunception). I may consider doing one under Indykenobi's definition.

    Offline oligi3008

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    Re: 100% definition
    « Reply #102 on: July 14, 2012, 01:47:28 AM »
    In my opinion you should get the upgrades for the 3 shields, the bomb bag, the slingshot seed bag and the quiver at least once.
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    Offline indykenobi

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    Re: 100% definition
    « Reply #103 on: July 14, 2012, 12:22:14 PM »
    The main reason I decided not to do upgrades for shields/ammo/potions is because they aren't limited items, as Testrunner and Blackrazgriz have noted.  If you're going to upgrade the shields, why shouldn't you get one of each type of wooden shield (wooden, banded, braced)?  That seems silly, especially since the Hylian Shield obsoletes all of them.  I could see a better argument for the ammo upgrades, but even still, why not get one of each type of ammo container?  It's not limited.

    I'm actually more curious lately about whether dungeon maps should be included in the definition.  It may be true that they aren't necessary to beat the game, but neither are gratitude crystals or goddess cubes.  I'd prefer not to get them, and there's precedent for skipping them as I believe OoT 100% does.  So that's why they're not in the route.

    And yes, I didn't get bugs or treasures; since I play in Hero Mode, it seemed silly to not take advantage of having treasures and bugs carry over.  Doing this in Normal Mode, you'd have to collect enough treasures on the way to do whatever upgrading you decide are necessary, plus the 2 hours of cutscenes, so I'm not sure how that's a truer 100% definition than the similar thing in Hero Mode.

    Offline oligi3008

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    Re: 100% definition
    « Reply #104 on: July 21, 2012, 12:22:30 AM »
    Some treasures and bugs are not necessary but they have a fixed spot in the inventory, so they should all be gotten at least once. Like in OoT the magic beans could be skipped, but they have a fixed spot on the inventory.
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    Offline TestRunner

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    Re: 100% definition
    « Reply #105 on: July 21, 2012, 06:00:17 PM »
    In OoT, there is a limited number of beans, so you have to get all of them. In Skywards Sword, there is an infinite number of treasures.

    My stand is like Indy's, if you really think you should collect treasures, then play normal mode. It's like playing NG+, but your character has to be level 1 and you can't use any old items.

    For dungeon maps, I'll just follow MM which only required permanent items. So you don't need dungeon maps, compasses, and BKs. I know there's a little contention here for OoT...

    You don't need lower tiers of items, since other games follow the same philosophy.

    Still unsure about the goddess cubes/chests, because they are not requires in TWW (maps/chests). But I'll agree with either decision, but personally, I support opening them.

    Btw, it's funny that the only people who are disagreeing with the current definition are people who are not running the game. :P
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    Offline Abahbob

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    Re: 100% definition
    « Reply #106 on: July 24, 2012, 10:10:40 AM »
    Why are we arguing over this again? It seems like its just people who don't agree with the definition want to get it changed. It had seemed to have calmed down and almost have a perfect agreement. The best way to reach an agreement is to do a 100% run and see if it feels long enough. If you want to try collecting all the treasures, upgrading all items, etc, be my guest. But please do remember that even if you think that's what 100% SHOULD be, that may not be what the 100% run is. There is a reason we have a 100% definition. It doesn't mean doing everything possible in the game. Like TestRunner said, most people arguing aren't running. I'm not running SS anymore. But I have something to make even more arguments. In TWW, we collect all charts but not chests, even though you can see the count of chests collected on the map screen. But I don't think the map screen is accessible in the Ganon fight. So even though you can't see all the map count at the end, they are required. Gnaw on that bone.


    Well, if you want a normal mode 100% on SDA, I believe you could watch all the cutscenes first so you have a complete skip.dat or w/e. I'm just thinking to the CBFD run where they skip all the cutscenes because they've already been watched.