Author Topic: 100% definition  (Read 49148 times)

Offline Paraxade

  • Special Guay
  • Posts: 229
100% definition
« on: December 07, 2011, 08:53:52 PM »
I've been curious how 100% would be defined in this game. These seem like a given for any 100%:

-All items
-All heart pieces/heart containers
-All main wallet upgrades/gratitude crystals

Then these all seem like they could feasibly be part of the definition to me:

-All primary item upgrades
-All medals
-All empty bottles
-All goddess cubes/goddess cube chests
-All pouch slots
-Beedle wallet upgrades
-Hylian Shield

My personal idea of 100% includes all of those, but it's obviously up for debate. What do you guys think?
« Last Edit: December 07, 2011, 09:56:33 PM by Paraxade »

Offline bluephantom340

  • Special Guay
  • Posts: 202
Re: 100% definition
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2011, 09:54:35 PM »
I also believe that the things you listed should be the 100% definition.
[13:57] <Kaztalek> Give me a week and I guarentee I will be a top 10 MM player.
[18:34:23] <ingx24> i suck at mm
http://www.youtube.com/user/ayumuhd

Offline Paraxade

  • Special Guay
  • Posts: 229
Re: 100% definition
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2011, 09:56:45 PM »
oh i forgot hylian shield. added to the first post.

Offline aleckermit

  • Mega Guay
  • Posts: 523
  • back in green
    • Youtube.com/aleckermit
Re: 100% definition
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2011, 09:57:10 PM »
I think:

-All 20 heart containers (via collecting all HP's and HC's)
-All B items with all upgrades applied
-Bomb bag, seed bag, quiver with max upgrades
-Largest wallet with the +900 upgrade
-All bottles
-Hylian Shield
-8 pouch slots

Maybe all medals but to me, they're only used to achieve to above things. They don't really allow Link to do/use anything new.

I strongly disagree with having to trigger and open all goddess cubes/chests. Some of them have 2 of the same medal, most of them are just rupees.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2011, 10:15:49 PM by aleckermit »
http://youtube.com/aleckermit

<@Swordless> Have you had this problem before? A game not starting until you cleaned it?

Offline Paraxade

  • Special Guay
  • Posts: 229
Re: 100% definition
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2011, 10:12:10 PM »
6 pouch slots? why 6? that seems arbitrary when there's a total of 8...

20 heart containers is kinda weird to me because of the two heart medals... if you require the two heart medals do you also require all the other medals? or if you do require the two heart medals, do you just have to collect them, or do you also have to equip them? like i said, it's kinda weird. the one that makes the most sense to me is you have to collect it but you don't necessarily have to equip it (which is part of all medals).

i disagree with needing bomb bag/seed bag/quiver. those items are disposable, there's an infinite number of them, you can sell them at the item check... it just doesn't fit for me.

Offline aleckermit

  • Mega Guay
  • Posts: 523
  • back in green
    • Youtube.com/aleckermit
Re: 100% definition
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2011, 10:14:31 PM »
I meant 8 pouches sry.

And by 20 heart containers I meant via HC and HP collecting only.

I see no reason at all not to buy and upgrade the seed bag, bomb bag, and quiver. They are upgradable and have always been in 100% runs in past Zelda's. Just because you can buy more than one, doesn't matter. You can have multiple of the same medal too. Sellability is not really relevent either imo.

I can dig why you'd want 1 of each medal, but all goddess cubes/chest gets a big thumbs down from me.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2011, 10:24:18 PM by aleckermit »
http://youtube.com/aleckermit

<@Swordless> Have you had this problem before? A game not starting until you cleaned it?

Offline Paraxade

  • Special Guay
  • Posts: 229
Re: 100% definition
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2011, 10:33:48 PM »
i disagree with it because they're disposable items. if we're going to require buying and upgrading those then we need to require buying and upgrading the wooden/iron/sacred shields too, and that just seems dumb to me.

it's different imo in other zelda games where they're limited, permanent collectibles. similarly, the reason i was thinking all medals is because they're limited.

Offline aleckermit

  • Mega Guay
  • Posts: 523
  • back in green
    • Youtube.com/aleckermit
Re: 100% definition
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2011, 10:43:05 PM »
The wooden, iron, and sacred shields are step-up items to the final Hylian Shield, so of course tehy are skipped.. just like the goron bracelet is skipped in OoT because there's a better final item that does the same thing.

The seed bag, bomb bag, and quiver do not lead to a better item. You buy them, upgrade them and they're are as good as they can be. They work exactly like past upgradable ammo-holders except that you can have more than one and you can sell them.

As for disposability, you can easily lose a tunic or shield in OoT after already getting them, but they're still required for 100%.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2011, 10:51:01 PM by aleckermit »
http://youtube.com/aleckermit

<@Swordless> Have you had this problem before? A game not starting until you cleaned it?

Offline aleckermit

  • Mega Guay
  • Posts: 523
  • back in green
    • Youtube.com/aleckermit
Re: 100% definition
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2011, 11:01:05 PM »
Final word: I'm happy with whatever definition that's decided as long as godess cubes/chests are not all required and that only 1 of each medal is needed.
http://youtube.com/aleckermit

<@Swordless> Have you had this problem before? A game not starting until you cleaned it?

Offline EverAlert

  • Regular Guay
  • Posts: 68
Re: 100% definition
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2011, 12:00:00 AM »
Personally I mostly agree with Paraxade. Anything you can get an unlimited number of should not count (anything buyable at the bazaar, basically). That is the reason for not getting the other shields, not because they step-up into the Hylian Shield (they don't). I would say get all the medals too as they are a limited resource.

I do not agree with opening all the goddess chests. However we should hit all the cubes.

Someone should check if you can sell the Hylian Shield and then get it again from Lanayru. If so I would say it doesn't count either (though obviously we would want -a- shield for speed purposes).

Offline CloudMax

  • Site Editor
  • Mega Guay
  • Posts: 579
    • CloudModding
Re: 100% definition
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2011, 03:24:41 AM »
I'd personally say that goddess cubes should be required in a 100% run.
Sure, some people hate activating them.
But getting all the cubes can be compared with getting all the skulltulas in OoT.
It'd just be stupid not to get them. They are a big part of the game.
Maybe not opening all the chests, but you should activate them in my opinion.

It'd also make routes and such more interesting, as we probably would end up finding tricks related to getting cubes faster, which I'm really looking forward too.

Heart container medals should also be required. I would never in my life accept a zelda file as 100% if two heart containers are missing. No matter what.

I am not to sure about collecting all medals though. Normally I'd say that it is required, since they are limited items that can't be sold to the bank, etc. which means that they are collectables. And I usually go by the rule that all collectables are required for a 100%.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2011, 03:32:30 AM by CloudMax »

Offline Runnerguy2489

  • Special Guay
  • Posts: 439
  • I'm not your buddy, guay!
    • Youtube page
Re: 100% definition
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2011, 06:04:51 AM »
What about dungeon maps? They are also limited items that can't be sold or disposed of. I myself don't think that it is needed in a 100% run but I wanted to mention it since it wasn't brought up yet.
Quote
runnerguy your such a mother fucker. whats with all this bombchu shit? all everyone who likes this shit is stupid. ur a fucking cheater. u did that the wrong way, thats not how to get past the king zora u cheater. u suck and i wont continue watching all ur shit! videos.

Offline CloudMax

  • Site Editor
  • Mega Guay
  • Posts: 579
    • CloudModding
Re: 100% definition
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2011, 06:13:04 AM »
What about dungeon maps? They are also limited items that can't be sold or disposed of. I myself don't think that it is needed in a 100% run but I wanted to mention it since it wasn't brought up yet.
That is actually a valid point.
You can skip about half of every dungeon by skipping the dungeon maps.
This is because in the first playthrough you "need" them to progress. They're actually helpful this time around.
I am not sure about adding them in 100% either. But sure, I'd actually say that we should get them, but I know that most people will be against this.
It is just that we skip so much of the dungeons by skipping the maps, and that just feels wrong to me.

However, most OoT players are used to skipping as much as possible, so I can understand if people do not want to collect maps and such.

Offline aleckermit

  • Mega Guay
  • Posts: 523
  • back in green
    • Youtube.com/aleckermit
Re: 100% definition
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2011, 09:17:51 AM »
Activating all cubes makes nooooo sense. We should only activate and open the chests that contain required items for 100%. If we decided to open them all, so much time would be spent just opening unneeded rupee chests, there's sooooo many rupees throughout the game in the overworld and in dungeons along the way to all destinations that we can get instead. We'll most likely be getting 50r from every boss fight when playing through boss battles for the heart piece and Hylian Shield alone (~650r total?).

I can agree on no ammo-carrying upgrades though, since the majority seems to agree with parax.

I still think 1 of each medal is the way to go. To me the game is giving you 2 routes to obtain the HC and rupee medal: If you have a lot of money you can buy them from beetle, if you want to go the more exploritory route you can find them in goddess chests. When I got both pairs of each finally, it felt redundant.

Absolutely no to maps IMO.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2011, 09:42:48 AM by aleckermit »
http://youtube.com/aleckermit

<@Swordless> Have you had this problem before? A game not starting until you cleaned it?

Offline Tamis

  • Regular Guay
  • Posts: 63
Re: 100% definition
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2011, 10:09:30 AM »
(hi, kinda new here, I wanted to register for some time but I didnt have anything to post :p)

I think one medal of each should be enough, but goddess cubes should all be activated, not necessarily open the goddess chests, just activate the damn cubes. Should not take a huge time since you visit every area where they are and you re visit them also. Unless some major skip glitch is found it's only a bit of time loss and more route planning, I think it would be more entertaining.

About maps, I see no point in getting all of them, it's just a help... It's like saying you'd need to finish the game with 5 bottles with healing potions ++ in them... Plus it could make a dungeon way longer if some glitch to skip a big chunk of it was to be found.

Offline CloudMax

  • Site Editor
  • Mega Guay
  • Posts: 579
    • CloudModding
Re: 100% definition
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2011, 11:09:47 AM »
Activating all cubes makes nooooo sense. We should only activate and open the chests that contain required items for 100%. If we decided to open them all, so much time would be spent just opening unneeded rupee chests, there's sooooo many rupees throughout the game in the overworld and in dungeons along the way to all destinations that we can get instead. We'll most likely be getting 50r from every boss fight when playing through boss battles for the heart piece and Hylian Shield alone (~650r total?).

I can agree on no ammo-carrying upgrades though, since the majority seems to agree with parax.

I still think 1 of each medal is the way to go. To me the game is giving you 2 routes to obtain the HC and rupee medal: If you have a lot of money you can buy them from beetle, if you want to go the more exploritory route you can find them in goddess chests. When I got both pairs of each finally, it felt redundant.

Absolutely no to maps IMO.

You do not spend much time opening the chests AT ALL, since you visit/revisit every single area in the game for different reasons.
A good route should make it so that opening all the chests only takes like 10 minutes, maybe even 20. But not more.
And I said activate cubes, I did not even mention opening them at all.

And like I said earlier, most people WILL be against maps.
I do not really see why. This is the 100% category, yet people try to keep it as low as possible, like as if it was a low 100% run. We'll skip most of most dungeons because of skipping the maps.
And I guess this is why people is against maps, because you have to do more parts of the dungeon, and people do not want to do that for some reason.
People want quiver upgrades, but they do not want to do the dungeons to get the maps, which is the most fun part of the game. I do not see the logic in that, at all.

Ohh well, Like I said before, it just seems like people try to remove as much as possible every time they come up with a 100% definition.
If we go by the current definition, we'll only do like 80% of the game tbh. No cubes, no cube chests, no shield upgrades, no maps.

Also, should we have to activate all the bird statues? I imagine most people will be against this aswell though.

If we're going to skip goddess cubes and stuff, then we should just keep it as low as possible, like:
All B Items (upgraded)
20 heart containers
9900 rupee wallet
5 bottles
8 pouch slots
Hylian Shield

I do not see a point in even considering getting the quiver/bags or 1 of each medal, if we do not even get the cubes. It is like the replacement for the heart piece searching. There is almost no heart pieces to be found in the game (on the ground) compared to earlier zelda games. Instead they've put a lot of cubes all over the game.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2011, 11:57:14 AM by CloudMax »

Offline aleckermit

  • Mega Guay
  • Posts: 523
  • back in green
    • Youtube.com/aleckermit
Re: 100% definition
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2011, 12:53:54 PM »
I don't see how activting the cubes has ANYTHING to do with 100%.

They're exactly like the cow in Link's house in OoT. We don't get the cow in 100% because it's not an item Link actually adds to his inventory, it's an overworld modification. Just like the goddess cubes/chests. Unless the 100% definition reqires you to OPEN all goddess chests, there's no reason to trigger all teh cubes. And I don't see the point in opening all teh chests.

We should prob do a poll for this. Figure out whether the majority wants ALL medals or 1 of each medal, and whether the goddess cubes/chests should be required. Also whether the ammo holders and their upgrades should be required.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2011, 12:56:06 PM by aleckermit »
http://youtube.com/aleckermit

<@Swordless> Have you had this problem before? A game not starting until you cleaned it?

Offline TheOnlyOne

  • Regular Guay
  • Posts: 25
Re: 100% definition
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2011, 01:10:28 PM »
Goddess cubes and chests are the same as sea charts and underwater chests in the WW. And the gratitude crystals are akin to skulltullas/poes.

Offline aleckermit

  • Mega Guay
  • Posts: 523
  • back in green
    • Youtube.com/aleckermit
Re: 100% definition
« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2011, 01:11:46 PM »
Goddess cubes and chests are the same as sea charts and underwater chests in the WW. And the gratitude crystals are akin to skulltullas/poes.

Exactly, and we don't get all charts/sea chests in TWW. The gratitude crystals aren't really a debatable issue since they're all required for the max wallett.
http://youtube.com/aleckermit

<@Swordless> Have you had this problem before? A game not starting until you cleaned it?

Offline CloudMax

  • Site Editor
  • Mega Guay
  • Posts: 579
    • CloudModding
Re: 100% definition
« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2011, 01:12:38 PM »
I don't see how activting the cubes has ANYTHING to do with 100%.

They're exactly like the cow in Link's house in OoT. We don't get the cow in 100% because it's not an item Link actually adds to his inventory, it's an overworld modification. Just like the goddess cubes/chests. Unless the 100% definition reqires you to OPEN all goddess chests, there's no reason to trigger all teh cubes. And I don't see the point in opening all teh chests.

We should prob do a poll for this. Figure out whether the majority wants ALL medals or 1 of each medal, and whether the goddess cubes/chests should be required. Also whether the ammo holders and their upgrades should be required.


The ammo holders are a temporary upgrade that most likely ends up in the bank. It won't be used. So it'll be just as useless as anything else.
The definition of 100% has always been questionable and will always be.
Getting all the cubes (including useless ones that gives rupees), is just like getting the last 50 golden skulltulas in OoT. It is completely useless, it is something you simply do because it feels like it is a part of 100%.
And skipping maps/compasses/boss keys are skipped simply because people didn't want to collect them, but in a true 100% (if 100% means getting everything), you would get them, no matter if you want to or not.
Everything is questionable, that is why we have this thread.

Getting the cubes is just as useless as many other things. And the cubes in this game is like I said earlier, the replacement for the heart piece searching. They've reduced the heart pieces by A LOT and put goddess cubes all over the game instead for those who likes the searching and puzzles which zelda really is all about. However, goddess cubes does not have a number in your pause screen, which for some reason makes it more useless than other items, when it really serves a bigger purpose than most required items.

So, 100% will always be broken. And right now we're deciding how broken it will be. And I'm fine with either requiring everything (except for opening chests), or require as little as possible. But just randomly throwing in what should be required and what shouldn't will just make the definition even more confusing and broken.

Quote
And the gratitude crystals are akin to skulltullas/poes.
They give the same rewards, but you collect them in entirely different ways. The cube collecting is much more similar to skulltulas than gratitude crystals ever will be, since you get almost all crystals from side-quests, which normally gives heart pieces in most games, which makes gratitude crystals similar to heart pieces.

Confusing, isn't it.

___________________

And one more thing:
Goddess cube hunting would make 100% runs much more interesting. Especially when it comes to the routes, and maybe we'll find different tricks to reach cubes earlier, etc.
The 100% category just seems boring and not interesting at all at the moment. It'd be any% with the side-quests and a lot of time in the bazaar upgrading items, and a rare few heart pieces that are found in the overworld/dungeons.
Cubes would be what really makes 100% into its own interesting category, without it, it has nothing special to offer.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2011, 01:25:30 PM by CloudMax »

Offline aleckermit

  • Mega Guay
  • Posts: 523
  • back in green
    • Youtube.com/aleckermit
Re: 100% definition
« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2011, 01:21:13 PM »
The cubes should not all be activated, period. ESPECIALLY if you're not going to open them all. The sea chart/treasure comparison is a perfect parrallel with the goddess cubes/chests. You activate them, they show you where treasure is, and you open them all in teh first playthrough at random just to aquire a few HP's and inventory items. We should treat it as a weeding-out process to obtain teh real 100%-required items.

That out of the way, I say: 1 of each medal. I'm on the fence about the ammo holders.. they still meet 100% definition to me. Remember, 100% in gaming started from Metroid and that percentage went by items and upgrades Samus obtained.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2011, 01:27:23 PM by aleckermit »
http://youtube.com/aleckermit

<@Swordless> Have you had this problem before? A game not starting until you cleaned it?

Offline CloudMax

  • Site Editor
  • Mega Guay
  • Posts: 579
    • CloudModding
Re: 100% definition
« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2011, 01:33:39 PM »
That out of the way, I say: 1 of each medal. I'm on the fence about the ammo holders.. they still meet 100% definition to me. Remember, 100% in gaming started from Metroid and that percentage went by items and upgrades Samus obtained.
In metroid they didn't have hidden objects all over the game that you were supposed to find to get different rewards (goddess cubes). If there was, you'd probably have to collect them.
1 of each medal sounds stupid to me. either all medals, or none. if you have 2 apples and only pick one, it isn't 100%, it is 50%. I'm sure my math is correct. The medals are also completely useless. I've never ever used one (except for the 2 heart container medals).
And ammo holders is just another way of wasting time in the bazaar. Having to buy and upgrade them just to throw them away is way more annoying than finding the goddess cubes, period.

And from my last post:
Quote
Goddess cube hunting would make 100% runs much more interesting. Especially when it comes to the routes, and maybe we'll find different tricks to reach cubes earlier, etc.
The 100% category just seems boring and not interesting at all at the moment. It'd be any% with the side-quests and a lot of time in the bazaar upgrading items, and a rare few heart pieces that are found in the overworld/dungeons.
Cubes would be what really makes 100% into its own interesting category, without it, it has nothing special to offer.
What fun would 100% be (especially when it comes to watching) if the only differences from any% is:
play minigames
run around talking to NPCs to get gratitude points
hit a FEW of the goddess cubes
open up 1 extra chest in fire sanctuary (for a bottle)
spend extra time in the bazaar upgrading items for multiple minutes
and open up like 4-5 chests to get a few heart pieces (aswell as picking up a rare few on the ground. those will only add a few minutes though. You'd barely notice it.)

In my opinion, goddess cubes is the only single thing in the entire game that really would make 100% interesting, since everything else in 100% is just watching someone run around talking to NPCs and open like 5 extra chests in the entire game.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2011, 01:35:57 PM by CloudMax »

Offline aleckermit

  • Mega Guay
  • Posts: 523
  • back in green
    • Youtube.com/aleckermit
Re: 100% definition
« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2011, 01:40:22 PM »
Hitting goddess cubes (especially to make a chest appear that you don't need and will not open) is not fun. Whether you think the goddess cubes are more fun to require or not is beside the point anyway, they aren't obtainable items that Link adds to his inventory or quest screen, or pouch. They're just switches that make chests appear.

SS does have a lack of mini-games that reward HP's and items but that doesn't mean we need to make up for that by adding bogus requirements to 100%.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2011, 01:44:02 PM by aleckermit »
http://youtube.com/aleckermit

<@Swordless> Have you had this problem before? A game not starting until you cleaned it?

Offline mzxrules

  • Mega Guay
  • Posts: 923
  • Wrong warp expert
Re: 100% definition
« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2011, 01:51:08 PM »
If this was Metroid Prime, Goddess cubes would have been part of the 100% just like visor scans would be.

Another thing... All dowsing targets or no?
Quote from:  Leigh Rogers
Braid
This is art because the music is classical music, and the graphics are done with a pen. The story is something about a woman. I could not understand much of this to be honest, which makes it even more likely to be an art.

Offline darkeye14

  • Regular Guay
  • Posts: 101
    • http://www.youtube.com/user/darkeye14
Re: 100% definition
« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2011, 01:51:24 PM »
Remember, 100% in gaming started from Metroid and that percentage went by items and upgrades Samus obtained.

But in Metroid, you can't just buy unlimited Missile Tanks in a store; you collect them once, and then they're gone forever. It made sense to require the Biggest Bomb Bag in OoT because (disregarding RBA shenanigans) you could only get it once. And the MM 100% definition is based entirely around the items you don't lose when going back in time (i.e. the items you can only get once). The ammo upgrades in SS aren't permanent (you can put them in storage or even sell them), and they aren't unique (you can fill the Item Check entirely with Large Quivers if that floats your boat), so comparing them to OoT's ammo upgrades or to Metroid just doesn't make sense. Just because it's a Quiver doesn't mean it's anything like OoT's Quiver.

[18:38] <Sigless> darkeye is cute too

[18:45] <aleckermit> We get a free pack of cheetos with every vote too :)
[18:46] <bluemarth> in the uk we keep our foreskin

Offline aleckermit

  • Mega Guay
  • Posts: 523
  • back in green
    • Youtube.com/aleckermit
Re: 100% definition
« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2011, 01:54:02 PM »
But in Metroid, you can't just buy unlimited Missile Tanks in a store; you collect them once, and then they're gone forever. It made sense to require the Biggest Bomb Bag in OoT because (disregarding RBA shenanigans) you could only get it once. And the MM 100% definition is based entirely around the items you don't lose when going back in time (i.e. the items you can only get once). The ammo upgrades in SS aren't permanent (you can put them in storage or even sell them), and they aren't unique (you can fill the Item Check entirely with Large Quivers if that floats your boat), so comparing them to OoT's ammo upgrades or to Metroid just doesn't make sense. Just because it's a Quiver doesn't mean it's anything like OoT's Quiver.



I can sway to the majority on ammo holders and all medals vs. 1 of each medal but I can't agree with the cubes, I think my reasoning is sound.

What's your opinion on the cubes darkeye?
http://youtube.com/aleckermit

<@Swordless> Have you had this problem before? A game not starting until you cleaned it?

Offline CloudMax

  • Site Editor
  • Mega Guay
  • Posts: 579
    • CloudModding
Re: 100% definition
« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2011, 02:03:35 PM »
SS does have a lack of mini-games that reward HP's and items but that doesn't mean we need to make up for that by adding bogus requirements to 100%.
Then do not add 1 of each medal and ammo holders.
They are just as bogus as anything else.
It is just stupid.

1 of each medal does not make any sense at all. Why would you ever only get 1. Either all, or none. That is the most logical thing to do.
And the ammo holders is just a time waster, it is a temporary upgrade you choose to equip that doesn't upgrade link permanently in any way.

I'd say either throw in as much as possible into the 100% category, or keep it to the lowest, without any stupid things at all.

Quote
All dowsing targets or no?
I think we should unlock all dowsing targets. It is something you unlock permanently and it is on the UI even.
The same goes for bird statues (which some people will be against), it serves as a warp point in the game, and it is something you unlock. I do not see how these could be skipped in a 100%. And no shit can explain why it shouldn't be in the definition.

Offline darkeye14

  • Regular Guay
  • Posts: 101
    • http://www.youtube.com/user/darkeye14
Re: 100% definition
« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2011, 02:05:57 PM »
I think the Goddess Cubes are kind of dumb. It seems pointless to hit a cube that you're not even going to get treasure from anyways (though some unnecessary cubes might come in handy for buying expensive things from Beedle). It would be like spawning a treasure chest in OoT, and then not opening it. It just seems like a waste of time.

And from my last post:What fun would 100% be (especially when it comes to watching) if the only differences from any% is:

Adding arbitrary items to the definition seems like an SRL goal, not a rational and sensible criteria for which items to collect. No-OoB MM any% is way more fun than the standard any%, but it's just not a realistic category. If the 100% run is boring, then it's the game's fault, not the fault of the people who came up with the definition.
[18:38] <Sigless> darkeye is cute too

[18:45] <aleckermit> We get a free pack of cheetos with every vote too :)
[18:46] <bluemarth> in the uk we keep our foreskin

Offline aleckermit

  • Mega Guay
  • Posts: 523
  • back in green
    • Youtube.com/aleckermit
Re: 100% definition
« Reply #28 on: December 08, 2011, 02:09:39 PM »
I really don't think any of the rupee goddess chests will come in handy. Unless the cube is in Link's direct path and its chest is on an island that has an item we need.

As for bird statues, I think whatever we decided with MM's owl statues applies here.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2011, 02:13:40 PM by aleckermit »
http://youtube.com/aleckermit

<@Swordless> Have you had this problem before? A game not starting until you cleaned it?

Offline CloudMax

  • Site Editor
  • Mega Guay
  • Posts: 579
    • CloudModding
Re: 100% definition
« Reply #29 on: December 08, 2011, 02:13:40 PM »
I really don't think any of the rupee goddess chests will come in handy. Unless the cube is in Link's direct path and its chest is on the same island as a HP/medal/pouch chest.

As for bird staatues, I think whatever we decided with MM's owl statues applies here.

In the IRC they clearly told me NOT to compare with oot/mm definitions, because they said that a lot of stuff is questionable in those definitions aswell.

I just think bird statues should be collected it just seems logical.

And rupee chests should be totally useless if you play hero mode (which you most likely will do), since you just can sell your rare treasure for 300 rupees each, and it goes really fast.

Offline aleckermit

  • Mega Guay
  • Posts: 523
  • back in green
    • Youtube.com/aleckermit
Re: 100% definition
« Reply #30 on: December 08, 2011, 02:16:03 PM »
Then I disagree with all bird statues, slows the game down for no gain whatsoever. They don't add to Link's inventory. ITEMS CLOUDMAX, WE'RE COLLECTING ALL ITEMS xP.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2011, 02:18:11 PM by aleckermit »
http://youtube.com/aleckermit

<@Swordless> Have you had this problem before? A game not starting until you cleaned it?

Offline CloudMax

  • Site Editor
  • Mega Guay
  • Posts: 579
    • CloudModding
Re: 100% definition
« Reply #31 on: December 08, 2011, 02:18:14 PM »
Then I disagree with all bird statues, slows the game down for no gain whatsoever. They don't add to Link's inventory.

They don't add to links inventory, but it is something you unlock and can be used permanently.
It is like saying that warp songs in other games are useless. You could argue that this isn't the case since there is so many bird statues, but then again, how many there is doesn't matter. And what we personally think just slow down the game or what we fell does not matter, that is what you said to me earlier even.

This discussion is getting confusing..

Offline aleckermit

  • Mega Guay
  • Posts: 523
  • back in green
    • Youtube.com/aleckermit
Re: 100% definition
« Reply #32 on: December 08, 2011, 02:24:27 PM »
The statues work just like in MM. If we decide on something different here, then we disagree with the MM 100% definition. Warp songs were on teh quest status screen and had fillable spots, statues are overworld items and the maps in MM and SS don't leave a statue spot for you to fill.
http://youtube.com/aleckermit

<@Swordless> Have you had this problem before? A game not starting until you cleaned it?

Offline Tamis

  • Regular Guay
  • Posts: 63
Re: 100% definition
« Reply #33 on: December 08, 2011, 02:28:51 PM »
I think the Goddess Cubes are kind of dumb. It seems pointless to hit a cube that you're not even going to get treasure from anyways (though some unnecessary cubes might come in handy for buying expensive things from Beedle). It would be like spawning a treasure chest in OoT, and then not opening it. It just seems like a waste of time.

Well, what about golden skulltulas in OoT then ?

Offline CloudMax

  • Site Editor
  • Mega Guay
  • Posts: 579
    • CloudModding
Re: 100% definition
« Reply #34 on: December 08, 2011, 02:34:02 PM »
Well, what about golden skulltulas in OoT then ?

Like we said earlier, old definitions are broken.
There was apparently someone else who made up definitions after how he wanted them to be back then.
Skulltulas are questionable, and no one has a good answer for why it is required, except that the person who made the definition said that it should be like that.

Offline aleckermit

  • Mega Guay
  • Posts: 523
  • back in green
    • Youtube.com/aleckermit
Re: 100% definition
« Reply #35 on: December 08, 2011, 03:23:17 PM »
GS's are required in OoT because they take up a space on the quest status screen alongside teh songs, medallions, etc.
http://youtube.com/aleckermit

<@Swordless> Have you had this problem before? A game not starting until you cleaned it?

Offline EverAlert

  • Regular Guay
  • Posts: 68
Re: 100% definition
« Reply #36 on: December 08, 2011, 04:32:43 PM »
This thread exploded. :/

@ metroid comparison -- the metroid games themselves tell you what 100% is. I don't think it's reasonable to be like "we should get all ammo upgrades here because we have to in metroid" since they work differently and the games themselves treat them with different levels of importance. IMO if we're getting ANY of the useless resellable shit then we should get all of it, but that is clearly stupid.

@ goddess cubes -- small note. the game actually does tell you on the pause menu how many there are left. view info for the cube dowser. I'm not sure if it also counts the chests though (they can be dowsed for too). Make of that what you will but they DO appear on the pause menu in some fashion.

@ dowsing options -- I would say get them. It's kinda dumb but there is a clear justification for it (they appear in your inventory).

@ maps/statues -- I would say go with the standard here. They are not all immediately viewable in your inventory at any point in the game (you have to be in the area). It kinda feels wrong not to get them since they're an important aspect of the game but at the same time I have a hard time justifying getting them. So I dunno, whatever the standard is imo.

Offline Paraxade

  • Special Guay
  • Posts: 229
Re: 100% definition
« Reply #37 on: December 08, 2011, 04:38:01 PM »
Not requiring GSes in OoT would be dumb.

anyway - I don't know anything about the MM definition, but I know in TP portals are not part of the 100% definition, and I don't see how it's really any different from SS bird statues. the goddess cubes thing seems to be the main thing everyone is split on... I'd much rather see at the very least the cubes being required, and I think theres a point to be made for opening the chests since they appear on the map screen, but that same logic would require all bird statues, so eh.

and yeah - one of each medal makes little sense to me. if we're considering medals part of the 100% definition then we need to get all of them. if we aren't, we get none of them. though it seems to be generally agreed we should get the two life medals. I wanna say you have to equip them too because it doesnt feel like 100% without 20 hearts but it doesn't make too much sense objectively :P

i'd be a little annoyed with dowsing targets mainly because the rupee target is ridiculously out of the way and does basically nothing for you, while the rest are a relatively small deal because they're all right there, so they mean basically nothing to the run.

edit: I had no idea the game tells you how many cubes are left, huh. that seems to make a more solid case for requiring all cubes.

Offline AniMeowzerz

  • Special Guay
  • Posts: 306
  • Meow, and... stuff.
Re: 100% definition
« Reply #38 on: December 08, 2011, 04:52:47 PM »
Goddess cubes and chests are the same as sea charts and underwater chests in the WW.

I agree with this, and I think it should apply to SS moreso than TWW (I don't agree with not getting all treasure charts since they're tracked in the menu)

I disagree with only getting 1 of each medal though, just because it makes sense to me to have all 20 hearts on display and you'd need both of the Life Medals, so why would you require both life metals but not the duplicates of the other medals, even if you aren't going to use them? I feel this way about the bottles too, even if we don't use them we're grabbing every duplicate of THAT item, so then why aren't we just collecting 1 bottle?

Goddess cubes are confusing to me, since it doesn't make sense to hit a cube and activate a chest that is going to sit there on the map and do nothing with it. So if we're on the ruling of having to collect all the cubes, then I'd also feel that opening all the chests would be required as well, as dumb as that is. I feel the same way about the dungeon maps too, since dungeon maps show which chests you haven't opened I'd feel it necessary to open those chests as well.

I actually agree with getting all the dowsing targets just so it would fill the slot, even if we don't ever use it..

I think upgrading items is really stupid, personally. I think if we have to include it, that it should just be used for items like the bug net, beetle, etc. B-button items.
Disagree with buying the satchel/quiver/bag for upgrading, that honestly feels to me exactly like buying all the shields to upgrade them, or buying options just to upgrade each one to the highest status, it's just stupid. But in the same sense they're linked to your B-button items so it seems weird that we wouldn't upgrade the ammo count as well as the item itself... :/ I just think upgrading is dumb.

Then there's Treasures and bugs, which I don't think has been asked about. It makes sense to me to collect at least 1 of each bug/treasure to fill that slot on your status screen. But hero mode carries that data over from normal mode, so most likely all of these slots would be filled when you start hero mode, so would we still require the person to collect 1 of each bug/treasure?

And saving at each bird statue blah blah fills map space blah. Just throwing stuff around.

Edit:
@ goddess cubes -- small note. the game actually does tell you on the pause menu how many there are left. view info for the cube dowser. I'm not sure if it also counts the chests though (they can be dowsed for too). Make of that what you will but they DO appear on the pause menu in some fashion.
Well this changed my opinion on whether or not we should get all of the cubes, which now I think we should just based on that.

Double Edit:
Yeah I can't find it, I'm selecting the goddess cube dowsing on the status screen and it's not giving me any numbers, just what it does <_< is there a video showing the cube count or something? (I'm on a file that doesn't have them all collected, in fact there's one right in front of my face right now)
« Last Edit: December 08, 2011, 05:26:32 PM by AniMeowzerz »
RBA stands for Rare Bird Adventure. We call it that because we need to get the blue cucco in order to use it.

Offline EverAlert

  • Regular Guay
  • Posts: 68
Re: 100% definition
« Reply #39 on: December 08, 2011, 06:02:23 PM »
I don't have an incomplete file but I can make a vid of it saying there are none left if that helps anything?

edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWywVlLrCm4
dat quality, xsplit hates me
« Last Edit: December 08, 2011, 06:10:10 PM by EA »