Author Topic: Version differences that affect sequence breaking  (Read 25228 times)

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Cosmo

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Version differences that affect sequence breaking
« on: August 29, 2011, 02:17:01 PM »

- Depending on version you can get Spooky Mask / Fire Arrow from Gerudo RBA Chest without needing to manipulate it's contents. However, all possible items can be obtained with different manipulation sequences.

- GCN has huge bombchu explosions in voids so you can get Sun's Song without Lullaby no problem. Sometimes helps elsewhere. VC has regular sized explosions and N64 crashes.

- GCN/VC can actually use Deku Stick on B which lets them obtain a skulltula in Deku Tree as adult without Bow, the Map in Spirit Temple, and obtain 50 Bombchus using contortion hovering to Ganon's Castle with Stick on B then doing Poe RBA, then heading to Spirit Trial. Other possibilities like RBAing bombs then using Stick B to get into Shadow Temple for hover boots or map/compass then leaving to do more RBA. Could also be used to get a key in Water Temple. Useful in any% for stealing epona or ISG megaflip to get to the broken sword.

- N64 can use Elemental Protection which is stacking timers to go through heat rooms / underwater for infinite time.

- PAL cannot megaflip in many instances due to changed roll invincibility.

- The game crashes when obtaining an item through the GIM glitch on N64.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2015, 01:29:11 PM by mzxrules »
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TimpZ

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Re: Version differences that affect sequence breaking
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2011, 10:35:07 AM »

- PAL cannot megaflip in many instances due to changed roll invincibility.

Could you be more specific, please?
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Toolex

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Re: Version differences that affect sequence breaking
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2011, 11:44:07 AM »

Could you be more specific, please?

I believe that any megaflip that involves bombs/ chus is fine and that really only enemy or damaging object megaflips are impossible on PAL

I think its because of the difference in how invincibility rolls work across the versions that is responsible rather than the way in which just any megaflip does

However between PAL and NTSC the way you perform megaflips especially chu megaflips is different and thats probably why you are confused

Hope this helped :P (worst written thing ever)

Edit: forgot to add my thing

In PAL rolling doesn't get you as far/ make you move places as fast this makes simple things like skipping the block maze in the forest temple a little harder as you have to use a hover boost instead which takes far longer
« Last Edit: August 31, 2011, 11:46:19 AM by Toolex »
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Childlink9999

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Re: Version differences that affect sequence breaking
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2011, 02:31:30 AM »

I dunno if it's just me but i've found differences in supersliding across the different versions. In the GC version they're piss easy, i can do them almost every time, with N64 i can get like 1/10 and in VC i've like only ever managed to do one  :-X (BTW these are all for supersliding as adult link, i find superslides as child link much easier on N64)
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BottlesFTW

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Re: Version differences that affect sequence breaking
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2011, 06:29:03 AM »

I dunno if it's just me but i've found differences in supersliding across the different versions. In the GC version they're piss easy, i can do them almost every time, with N64 i can get like 1/10 and in VC i've like only ever managed to do one  :-X (BTW these are all for supersliding as adult link, i find superslides as child link much easier on N64)
Are you on PAL? In PAL VC and PAL N64 Adult Link cannot superslide off of one bomb in some places and even in places you can superslide it's probably still very hard.
PAL GC is exactly like NTSC, though.
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Childlink9999

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Re: Version differences that affect sequence breaking
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2011, 03:25:58 AM »

Yeah i'm on PAL. That sucks 'cos the reloading times on GC are like twice as long as that of VC and N64 which isn't good for an RTA
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BottlesFTW

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Re: Version differences that affect sequence breaking
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2011, 06:16:31 AM »

Yeah i'm on PAL. That sucks 'cos the reloading times on GC are like twice as long as that of VC and N64 which isn't good for an RTA
PAL VC and PAL N64 run at 50 fps whereas PAL GC runs at 60 fps. If you only have PAL consoles, GC is definitely the way to go. PAL N64 and VC run slower and have a few tricks that are impossible.
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oligi3008

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Re: Version differences that affect sequence breaking
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2011, 12:58:14 PM »

Good, that I have the PAL N64 version and PAL GC version.
These differences are confusing and also slightly frustrating when trying glitches.
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NinjaAnge

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Re: Version differences that affect sequence breaking
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2011, 05:25:02 PM »

hei, am kinda new here. But i got myself pal  n64, gc Vc oot, megaflip is not that hard, its just a different timing. but ye, its harder than ntsc oot.
superslide on pal is horrible, its not impossble but it has very strict timming. i haven`t found a place where i cannot do the glitch. i been playing on pal for years but, ofc now i got ntsc too :) Mutch bedder.
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Childlink9999

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Re: Version differences that affect sequence breaking
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2011, 05:37:40 AM »

I was wondering for speedrunning is VC or N64 better?? (NTSC ofc)

I've heard in Majoras mask there's like a significant amount of lag on the N64 version which slows down the run and i was wondering if the same was for ocarina of time (also i'm planning on doing a no ISG gerudo bridge skip so the advantage of getting stick on B doesn't matter to me).
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RingRush

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Re: Version differences that affect sequence breaking
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2011, 05:58:18 PM »

There is no one answer to that, it really depends on what you are doing. Some versions are better for some goals, other versions are better for other goals. In most cases, the versions are considered of equal speed, even though microanalysis of lag and opportunities may give one version a small advantage. But you'll never see these advantages total over half a minute unless there is a major route change with a usable stick on B.

In general, I'd say VC is slightly better, since usable stick on B can be useful sometimes and I think overall it has less lag (I'm looking at you tower escape). But even better is to just use the version you are most comfortable with.
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ING-X

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Re: Version differences that affect sequence breaking
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2011, 03:51:30 AM »

VC OoT does have much faster loading times (like VC MM does) though, so it probably does save well over half a minute in most longer goals.
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Childlink9999

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Re: Version differences that affect sequence breaking
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2011, 04:46:09 AM »

ah okay fair enough thanks  :). Yeah i was thinking for any% RTA since on VC you have to wait for that screen about using the classic controller every time you reset but since VC probably makes up for this in less lag it doesn't really matter.
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ING-X

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Re: Version differences that affect sequence breaking
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2011, 05:40:25 PM »

I looked at the loading zones in VC OoT in Virtualdub a few days ago to see if the difference was larger/smaller than for VC MM (0.3 seconds per loading zone). The results were a bit shocking.

Entering castle:
-N64 (Pokey's 1:16 at 20FPS): 27320 to 27340 = 20 frames = 1 second
-VC (ZFG's 1:05 at 30FPS): 25032 to 25047 = 15 frames = 0.5 seconds

Entering market:
-N64 (Pokey's 1:16 at 20FPS): 27438 to 27460 = 22 frames = 1.1 seconds
-VC (ZFG's 1:05 at 30FPS): 25203 to 25224 = 21 frames = 0.7 seconds

Entering Temple of Time area:
-N64 (Pokey's 1:16 at 20FPS): 28068 to 28087 = 21 frames = 1.05 seconds
-VC (ZFG's 1:05 at 30FPS): 25451 to 25467 = 16 frames = 0.53 seconds

So... we went for years thinking that VC was barely any advantage over N64 in this game, and now it turns out it's probably even more of an advantage than it is for MM. Each loading zone saves up to a half a second on VC. This means that, in the any%, there are about 55 loading zones before Ganon's Tower (I counted kind of lazily, I'm not too familiar with OoT so I'm not sure what actually counts as a "loading zone" in this game), making for 27.5 seconds saved up to that point and over 30 seconds saved from the entire tower section. This means that VC is about a minute faster for the any% in this game for segmented (for RTA it's probably a lot less because of the faster resets on 64). Makes me wonder if the 1.0 savewarps in the segmented actually make up for the VC lag and loading... wasn't it only ~20 seconds saved from the 1.0 savewarps in the old any% segmented route?

EDIT: Upon further inspection, it seems that the time saved from loading zones varies a lot... Not only that, but the bad quality of Pokey's run (the one I was looking at to time this) makes it hard to tell when the fadeout to white ends for some loading zones. I may need to get better quality video from both versions like I did for MM to look at this further.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2011, 01:32:54 PM by ING-X »
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ING-X

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Re: Version differences that affect sequence breaking
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2011, 03:42:21 PM »

Ok, I took a simple random sample of 10 loading zones from the any% route (I could do more but I think 10 is a large enough sample for something like this), and it turns out it varies a lot more in OoT than in MM. Here are the results (from Pokey's 1:16 at 20fps for N64 and ZFG's 1:05 at 30fps for VC):

Entering castle:
-N64: 27320 to 27340 = 20 frames = 1 second
-VC: 25032 to 25047 = 15 frames = 0.5 seconds
-Difference: 0.5 seconds

Entering market:
-N64: 27438 to 27460 = 22 frames = 1.1 seconds
-VC: 25203 to 25224 = 21 frames = 0.7 seconds
-Difference: 0.4 seconds

Entering Temple of Time area:
-N64: 28068 to 28087 = 21 frames = 1.05 seconds
-VC: 25451 to 25467 = 16 frames = 0.53 seconds
-Difference: 0.52 seconds

To Lost Woods:
-N64: 52611 to 52632 = 19 frames = 0.95 seconds
-VC: 58396 to 58422 = 26 frames = 0.86 seconds
-Difference: 0.09 seconds

Dampe Grave:
-N64: 49867 to 49893 = 26 frames = 1.3 seconds
-VC: 54431 to 54465 = 34 frames = 1.13 seconds
-Difference: 0.17 seconds

Entering Ganon's Castle:
-N64: 77890 to 77919 = 29 frames = 1.45 seconds
-VC: 94842 to 94875 = 33 frames = 1.1 seconds
-Difference: 0.35 seconds

Exiting potion shop:
-N64: 56379 to 56400 = 21 frames = 1.05 seconds
-VC: 63891 to 63920 = 29 frames = 0.96 seconds

Exiting Kakariko:
-N64: 51549 to 51568 = 19 frames = 0.95 seconds
-VC: 64604 to 64627 = 23 frames = 0.77 seconds

Entering Fairy Fountain:
-N64: 61605 to 61621 = 16 frames = 0.8 seconds
-VC: 70164 to 70187 = 23 frames = 0.77 seconds

Entering Tower:
-N64: 78851 to 78880 = 29 frames = 1.45 seconds
-VC: 95811 to 95843 = 32 frames = 1.06 seconds



Average N64 loading zone: 1.11 seconds
Average VC loading zone: 0.838 seconds
Average difference: 0.272 seconds

So it's not as much as I thought - it's about the same as in MM. Figures. :P
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maxx

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Re: Version differences that affect sequence breaking
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2011, 04:59:28 PM »

So it's not as much as I thought - it's about the same as in MM. Figures. :P

Now add X seconds to VC for every savewarp (irrelevant on MM) and you'll see why it's pretty even.
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ING-X

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Re: Version differences that affect sequence breaking
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2011, 05:18:03 PM »

Yeah I thought about that too - the unpause advantage is nowhere near what I thought (it's only 0.15 seconds - then the actual PAUSE has 0.1 seconds EXTRA lag on VC which evens out to 0.05 seconds which is negligable), and the ~3 seconds saved every savewarp probably makes it about even.
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Cosmo

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Re: Version differences that affect sequence breaking
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2011, 07:29:24 AM »

good work ing
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