Author Topic: Glitchless  (Read 8473 times)

Offline Habreno

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Glitchless
« on: August 04, 2015, 05:25:03 AM »
Attached are my in-depth routes for Any% and 100% Glitchless, respectively, with the third file being an in-depth list of what I considered a glitch and not a glitch.


I would like some discussion about the routes and glitch discussions. Apoligies that the post itself isn't very detailed, the wall of text that would be routes is much better attached as a file.

Offline Habreno

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Re: Glitchless
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2015, 06:09:35 AM »
After doing more proofreading, I realized there were a few omissions and a few things that needed clarification.

Attached are the updated files for the Glitch List and 100%, respectively, but the changes and comments are as follows:


Glitch List Changes:

General banned philosophy was added.
General banned techniques were moved from the route to this page.

Lantern Oil Steal was added to the Allowed Tricks list (it was omitted)
Crate Skip inside Goron Mines was added to the Allowed Tricks list (it, too, was omitted)


100% Route Changes:


A note was added to the first line indicating that the route below was specifically for the Wii version, and all GC references in the actual route were removed as a result.

The list of banned/allowed techniques was removed from this file (Also removed from Any% file, but that was the only change for that file).

Line spacing in the initial comments regarding Rupees, Arrows, Bombs, and Water Bombs, before the actual route was changed for clarity.

A note was added during the Forest Temple segment indicating that it is recommended to obtain the Midna Text on the fifth monkey. A second note was added about the potential for this Midna Text to be completely skipped by skipping it for the fifth monkey and then potentially avoiding it through a precise boomerang throw to skip dropping down the hole.

The seventh and eighth monkeys are expanded on, and the strategy I use for the 8th monkey is listed.

The Kakariko Gorge bugs were apparently unlisted. I had these back around the sixth owl statue, and was halfway through moving them earlier in the run, having removed them from later, but not adding them earlier. These bugs are now properly included where I intended to move them to: after the second twilight, while en route to Ordon Spring, after taming Epona. As a result, the numberings for the bugs is also updated properly.

During Telma Escort, after killing KB2, the route changes equips from bomb arrows to arrows and bombs split (and unequipping Lantern). However, there are two rocks that need blown up for later in the run while bomb arrows are still equipped that should be blown up before this equip change. These have been properly routed in and noted, and the equip change is listed afterward.

Immediately after obtaining Master Sword, there was a savewarp after obtaining the Goron Bomb Bag. This savewarp was removed and replaced with a Zora Armor equip instead. It is unequipped during the Fishing Hole savewarp, although this unequip is not strictly necessary (but recommended)

After Iza 1, there is a savewarp. If you savewarp immediately after doing Iza 1, you savewarp back to UZR. Taking a couple steps such that you are not on the dock seems to correct this, causing the savewarp to properly warp you to the Spirit Cave. The instructions to take a couple steps were added here. As a note, I am not certain as to what exactly the proper trigger is for correcting the savewarp and if someone wishes to look this up they are more than welcome to.

During the return trip to the Sacred Grove, there is a golden bug outside (in the present) and inside (in the past). The golden bug route obtained both after completing Temple of Time. The "outside" golden bug was moved from there to on the way down from beating Skull Kid 2, before Temple of Time, as the movement is less optimized then compared to after coming back from the past. The "inside" golden bug is still obtained after the dungeon.

During the Activating the Dominion Rod segment, the GBoH poe was listed, then a 50R chest was listed. The text has been clarified such that the 50R chest is obtained, then the poe is killed and obtained. This optimizes movement, as you then wolf to the golden bugs.

The cannoning out of CitS was listed during the end of the CitS segment. This has been moved to the beginning of the Upgraded Master Sword segment, and the fact that the iron boots need to be worn was added.

The savewarp after PoT was removed as the Midna Text here is faster than savewarping to skip it.

The cannon to FBF (Flight by Fowl) was listed at a price of 20R, while FBF was listed at a cost of 10R. These amounts have been reversed to properly align with the actual in-game prices. This was only incorrect during the "Final Cleanup" segment; all other times during the run, these were correctly priced.

The inside Hyrule Castle barrier was changed from cleared to skipped, and the Wii version's mirrored text for the skip is included in brackets as a reminder.


Some comments in the route were changed for clarification:

The word "instead" was added to the comment at the beginning of the Lanayru Province segment, changing the statement from "... buy 10 Water Bombs from Barnes." to "...buy 10 Water Bombs from Barnes instead." to reflect the fact that the route itself has typed in to buy 15.

As the savewarp was removed, the comment at the start of the Gerudo Desert segment concerning this savewarp was also removed.

The words "not listed above" were added and the word "is" was changed to "are" in the comment after the Snowpeak Ruins segment, changing the statement from "...remaining 29R is from RNG..." to "...remaining 29R not listed above are from RNG..." to clear up any potential confusion about the rupee count suddenly jumping.


Some comments were added:

At the beginning, in the General Route Notes: "There are multiple "safety saves" throughout the run. These are if you deem them necessary and may be skipped if you wish."

At the beginning of the Gerudo Desert segment: "The Hero's Clothes equip during this segment is optional, but recommended. If you wish to keep Zora Armor on, it is possible to leave it equipped for the rest of the game."


Things that need further testing:


I believe it's possible to skip the Castle Town Mailman trigger by simply doing a jump attack (as human) or a jump attack while dashing (as wolf) over the entire trigger, no Boomerang LJ needed. However, I'm not sure if this is a Wii-only ability or if it's also possible on GC. If so, it is likely better to skip this trigger whenever possible.

There are two savewarps in the Gerudo Desert segment, one after obtaining Fishing Hole Bottle, and one after Iza 1. For the former, I am in favor of the savewarp as it is quite a bit of D/N cycle lost otherwise. For the latter, if you are quick enough I assume you can eliminate this; alternatively you can simply take the D/N cycle loss and not do this savewarp. As a note, I am not certain as to what exactly the proper trigger is for correcting this second savewarp; I believe it is not standing on the dock. Testing is welcomed.

There are two 50R chests available during the City in the Sky segment- one by the poe in the Gardens room, and one on the 4F ledge with the poe in the room above the central tower. Only one is necessary, but testing should be done to see which is faster to obtain. The route lists the first chest, in the Gardens room.


Things that need inclusion:

The strategy for the 7th monkey that skips going down the hole inside Forest Temple is not included.

A semi-brief Argarok fight description needs to be added, ideally including the Fairy Tears 2nd phase.

Offline Habreno

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Re: Glitchless
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2015, 08:29:49 PM »
Two notes (fixed locally, with another change or such will attach updated with all changes)


Wii version requires item drops for the Sols in Palace of Twilight. Sword drops throw the Sol.



Change to the "Final Cleanup" segment in 100%.


Old (with savewarp in PoT, which I believe set D/N cycle properly for it)

Exit PoT (W Lake Hylia)
Cross stones to Poe by 2nd bug location (56/60), savewarp.
Dash to dock, poe on dock (57/60) (W Sacred Grove)
Poe inside Sacred Grove (58/60) (W Snowpeak Top)
Poe inside Connection Cave (59/60), torches for 100R chest (250R) (E Double Clawshots^Ball and Chain) (W Lake Hylia)
   [Iron Boots/Gale Boomerang/Lantern/Double Clawshots]
Cannon to FBF (240R), Safety Save inside FBF, FBF to ledge beneath FBF (220R) for Poe (60/60) (W Snowpeak Top)
Yeta Race for PoH (19 2/5 HP) (W Kakariko Gorge)
Gale Boomerang PoH on pillar, Clawshot to pillar while Gale Boomerang is in the air (19 3/5 HP), PoH in chest (19 4/5 HP) (W CT)


New (without savewarp in PoT. D/N cycle should be about 60-65% through day)

Exit PoT (W Snowpeak Top)
Connection Cave, break ice, torches for 100R chest (250R), Poe (56/60) (W Snowpeak Top)
Yeta Race for PoH (19 2/5 HP) (W Kakariko Gorge)
Gale Boomerang PoH on pillar, Clawshot to pillar while Gale Boomerang is in the air (19 3/5 HP), PoH in chest (19 4/5 HP) (W Lake Hylia)
Dash to dock, Poe on dock (57/60) (W Lake Hylia)
Stepping stones to Poe by 2nd tear location (58/60), dash to cannon house, cannon to FBF (240R), Safety Save inside FBF, FBF to ledge beneath FBF (220R) for Poe (59/60) (W Sacred Grove)
Poe inside Sacred Grove (60/60) (W CT)



Resumes as prior afterward.


For the curious:

My PB is 10:09:47.40
SoB being 9:53:07.7


Best Splits:

Ordon Village- 15:44.99
To Faron Twilight- 8:14.64
Faron Province- 11:37.25
Gale Boomerang- 10:08.34
Forest Temple- 13:31.20
Eldin Twilight- 16:14.10
To King Bublin I- 14:34.72
Eldin Province I- 5:25.42
Hero's Bow- 13:06.86
Goron Mines- 7:12.95
Lanayru Twilight- 27:07.92
Lanayru Province I- 13:21.11
Clawshot- 10:32.77
Lakebed Temple- 15:39.56
Master Sword- 14:34.33
To Arbiter's Grounds- 31:28.38
Spinner- 19:07.63
Arbiter's Grounds- 8:18.92
Snowpeak Mountain- 15:22.59
Ball and Chain- 7:37.45
Snowpeak Ruins- 20:09.91
Finding the Temple of Time- 28:02.75
Dominion Rod- 13:18.61
Temple of Time- 19:35.44
Activating the Dominion Rod- 42:49.06
Hunting the Cave of Ordeals- 16:47.78
Cave of Ordeals- 30:11.06
Finding a Cannon- 36:29.77
Double Clawshots- 12:54.45
City in the Sky- 22:21.00
Upgraded Master Sword- 17:16.09
Palace of Twilight- 14:30.12
Final Cleanup- 19:57.22
Hyrule Castle- 19:33.30

Offline Habreno

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Re: Glitchless
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2015, 01:47:13 PM »
Updated files attached.
(Any% Glitchless- Single-Segment Route a.txt)
(100% Glitchless- Single-Segment Route.txt)
(Glitch List- Glitch List.txt)


The Glitch list was updated with a full description of Lantern Oil Steal (On the allowed tricks list) and pull-cancels for chains were added to the allowed tricks list.


The Argarok fight was added to Any%. 100% still needs a typed Two-Cycle route, but two-cycle route is listed.

The rerouting after PoT for the final cleanup was indeed as a result of removing the savewarp inside PoT, after the boss. The 100% file attached will have two versions of the Final Cleanup segment- one for a savewarp inside PoT and one without said savewarp. I am not certain as to which is faster- it needs to be fully tested out.

A few typos and minor errors were also corrected.

Offline Habreno

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Re: Glitchless
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2015, 05:11:35 PM »
Updated File: 100%

EDIT: The attached file was updated with a few changes. The old file is the top file, and the new file is the bottom file. A * indicates a new change in this edit.
EDIT2: A couple typos were corrected. The bottom file was replaced with the corrected file.


Moved the Hyrule Field south collection to after Eldin Twilight, as we now have Epona to make travel faster. The first five golden bugs were renumbered as a result.

* The UZR Howling Stone was moved to the Lanayru Twilight segment. The Golden Wolf for this howling stone is now acquired before entering Castle Town during the Lanayru Province segment, after obtaining the golden bug on the upper ledge.

* As a result of the Howling Stone and Golden Wolf being moved, the To Arbiter's Grounds segment was updated with the Golden Wolf being for the fourth hidden skill.

* Also as a result of the above, the Finding the Temple of Time segment was modified. There is no longer a warp to UZR, instead warping directly to Castle Town, and you simply enter Castle Town immediately (with a wolf-based mailman skip and transform right in front of the loading zone or mailman transformation) instead of going off to the side and getting the Golden Wolf then.

Added in Mailman skip for the Castle Town Mailman, as it's possible to simply jump attack over the trigger as human, no LJ required.
Also included an adjusted Mailman skip for the Castle Town Mailman as it's possible to dash jump over the trigger as wolf.

The Spirit Cave PoH was moved to the Final Cleanup. The heart quantities throughout most of the run were updated as a result.

A comment was added to the Snowpeak Ruins segment warning to be careful with the first 100R drop. This rupee can fall OOB very easily.
* This comment was modified to be clearer as to why you should be careful with the drop.

A note was added to the beginning of the Dominion Rod segment: "An alternative equip option is to equip Bomb Arrows at the same time as the Spinner equip, and use bomb arrows for the Armoses and the crystal room. This is seven bombs used."

An equip during the Activating the Dominion Rod was changed, also causing an equip during the Hunting the Cave of Ordeals segment. Instead of bombs, the Ball and Chain was equipped for killing the Stalfos. This results in not needing the Ball and Chain equip later. The equip order was updated to reflect this equip change.

An extra "Exit CT" was removed from the beginning of the Finding a Cannon segment.

The equip during the boss fight of the Palce of Twilight segment was changed. Instead of leaving the Iron Boots on and removing the Double Clawshots, the Lantern is equipped over the Iron Boots.

The words "or not" were added to the note after the Palace of Twilight segment, to clarify the route differences.

In the non-savewarp Final Cleanup segment, the equips were incorrect- the double clawshots were called for when they weren't equipped. The equip change made during the boss fight of the Palace of Twilight segment fixes this.

In the savewarp Final Cleanup segment, an equip was removed as it is now unnecessary because of the same equip change as above.

In both the savewarp and non-savewarp Final Cleanup segment routes, the rupee count was slightly incorrect. After handing in 3 bugs to obtain 250R, you should be at 255R, not 250R, as you have 5R remaining. While the 5R ends up being irrelevant, as you next hand in the rest of the bugs to obtain both 600R and the Giant Wallet, it's still fixed for accuracy's sake.

In the Hyrule Castle segment, the item the Hero's Bow equipped over was changed from the Iron Boots to the Ball and Chain, as a result of the equip change above.


Techniques:

Human Mailman Skip outside CT (no LJ): Just before the fourth pillar.
Wolf Mailman Skip outside CT: While dashing, just before the fourth pillar. Harder.
-- I have done some testing on GC and it appears that this works because the trigger on Wii is smaller than on GC- a simple jump attack from the ground doesn't clear the trigger on GC (yet it does on Wii). This testing was done on emulator, though (for GC version), so I'll have to try it again on console to be sure, but it appears the trigger is smaller on Wii (at least 1.0 Wii version). I might have to test other mailman triggers and see if it's just that trigger or if all the mailman triggers are smaller/small enough to just jump attack over.


On Wii version, it's possible to warp while underwater by using the map. This is used during the Finding the Temple of Time segment, when obtaining the underwater heart piece behind the Eldin Spring.



Personal Comments:

Sum of Bests: Down to 9:39:04 (-11:56 from last listing)
PB: 10:07:54.91 (on sub-10hr pace up until after Palace of Twilight. Dropped 10 minutes in the final two splits -_-)
« Last Edit: September 26, 2015, 03:58:52 AM by Habreno »

Offline Habreno

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Re: Glitchless
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2015, 03:23:39 AM »
This post was completely redone. Attached is the newest 100% route and the Glitch List.

Having tested the route- I like the rupee route change. It seems very efficient. Probably part of the reason for improving my PB by over half an hour, down from 10:07:xx to 9:31:07. Importantly, moving Plumm MG does NOT affect the D/N cycle. Also, the rupee route was indeed accurate.




Glitch List Changes:

Clarified what "actual combat" is, in reference to Long Jump Attacks and Super Jumps.

During the list of banned tricks, glitches that involve the Gale Boomerang Long Jump attack were removed as their listing is redundant, since Gale Boomerang Long Jumps themselves are banned.
During the list of banned tricks, Epona Slide (GC only) was added. It's a dismount that gives you significant movement during it, which no other dismount does, in addition to that it also doesn't check that there's ground underneath you when you're doing it (see Epona Slide across the Kakariko Gorge). For those two reasons, I have added it to the banned list.




Because of routing concerns of D/N cycle with moving Plumm MG, I have dropped the non-savewarp Final Cleanup. I will include it with the current changes at the end of this post if you do not wish to move Plumm MG, but it is not listed in the attached route.


A new rupee route was introduced to the latter half of the run. This rupee route cuts the trips to the Old Man for the Donation PoH from 4 to 2, cuts the trips to Malo Mart by 1, cuts the trips to Agathia from 5 to 4, and overall makes the route more efficent. There are no major changes to order with the exception of Springwater Run being earlier, but rupee counts in places will be different. These points cover the actual route changes; rupee counts in between have been updated.


The new rupee route begins during Activating the Dominion Rod:

-- Wolf to bomb shop, out top of bomb shop, Poe in Bomb House ruins (35/60), Poe on platform (36/60), dash to DMT.
---- DMT Poe (37/60), 3x20R under rocks (115R), PoH chest (13 4/5 HP) (W Kakariko Gorge)
Introduces the 3 red rupees under the rocks as a source for rupees.

-- Wolf based Mailman Skip, wolf through CT, Goron on fixed bridge, GB in grass by hill (20/24) (W Kakariko Village)
As a result of not stopping to hand in rupees, we simply pass by him as wolf.

-- Springwater Run for PoH (14 3/5 HP) (W Kakariko Village)
We must do Springwater Run now, as it unlocks Malo Mart being 200R to open, instead of 2000R. Additionally, we can't donate towards that 200R until after Springwater Run, else it doesn't count. We then warp back to Kakariko Village to finish what we need to do there. This is the extra warp introduced in this route.

-- Buy Hawkeye, Buy Hylian Shield, Donate 200R to Malo Mart (10R) (E Hylian Shield) (W Lake Hylia)
This finishes off Malo Mart in Kakariko Village and unlocks Malo Mart in Castle Town for the Magic Armor.
The warp to Lake Hylia is for Plumm Minigame, to fill the heart container prior to Cave of Ordeals. This part is unrelated to the rupee route.


During Finding a Cannon:

-- Mailman transformation, enter CT as human. 400R to donation PoH (400/1000) (200R).
The amount donated is changed from 100R to 400R. This will cut the trips down from four to two.

-- Dash to Owl Statue, get letter (6/6) (E Filled Ancient Sky Book^Lantern) (W Kakariko Village)
The equip change is made earlier, before warping back to Kakariko Village.

-- Show Book to Shad, DR statue, warp cannon (W Lake Hylia)
As we have already done everything at Malo Mart, we now simply go straight to the Sanctuary to hand in the book.


During City in the Sky:

-- 50R chest (50R), clawshot to second half of room, through to door (grate to right IS clawshottable on Wii), clawshot around to other door on this side, PoH chest (16 3/5 HP)
This 50R chest, plus one more mentioned below, makes up the final 100R we need from the overworld. It's faster to get these two chests than to get the 100R chest inside the Connection Cave.

-- Clawshot to central tower, Pixel hunt, cross to Poe (55/60), 50R chest (100R), jump down, clawshot up vines, cross ropes to door.
This is the other 50R chest, now routed in. It's the last overworld rupees we need, as the remaining 1,150R come from Agathia's golden bug obsession.


During Final Cleanup:

-- Poe inside Connection Cave (59/60) (W Lake Hylia)
The 100R chest was removed, as we have already obtained the 100R necessary from City in the Sky.

-- Wolf based Mailman Skip, enter CT, Clawshot MG for Giant Quiver (55R) hand in 7 bugs (get 550R) (600R)
We hand in 7 bugs to fill our wallet (3 pairs for 450R and the second half from one of the pairs we initially handed in on our first trip is 100R).

-- 600R towards Donation PoH (1000/0000) (0R) (20 HP)
As we handed in 400R to him earlier in the run, the 600R we filled our wallet with finishes him off and we get the final PoH with just two trips.



Other changes:

A note was added to the To Arbiter's Grounds Segment: "If you are behind in D/N cycle after Iza 1 and it is already night, you can get the poe on the dock and then warp to Lake Hylia. This saves quite a bit of time over having to get the poe later, during Final Cleanup."

The equip in the To Arbiter's Ground segment (immediately after the savewarp, right before Iza 1) was incorrect- the Fishing Rod was equipped but the equips overwrote a bomb bag that wasn't equipped. This was fixed to overwriting the fishing rod.

There were several equip changes during the Dominion Rod and Temple of Time:
-- The Bomb Bag is comboed during the Spinner equip.
-- The Ball and Chain is equipped over the Bomb Arrows after entering the traps room
-- The Hero's Bow is equipped over the Ball and Chain outside the boss room.
---- As a result of the equip changes, the note at the beginning of the segment concerning equipping the Bomb Arrows early was removed.

The Plumm MG was moved to prior to the Cave of Ordeals, to complete the Heart Container and give you 15 hearts for the Cave. The Heart Piece values were updated as a result.

A note was added to the Cave of Ordeals Segment: "If you get a Gold Chu on F19 you may save it for a fast 2-cycle Beast Ganondorf."
-- As a result of this potential, the comment about skipping the bottle equip was removed.
-- As a result of this change, the comment for Floor 19 was also changed.

A note was added to the Double Clawshots Segment:  "The bottle equip is for two-cycle Argarok. If you are not doing two-cycle Argarok, you may skip this equip change."

Both 50R chests inside City in the Sky are now routed in, and the 100R chest inside the Connection Cave is now skipped.

As a result of the potential for the bottle to not be equipped for the Zant fight, a note was added to the Palace of Twilight Segment: "If you did not attempt two-cycle Argarok, you will have the Spinner equipped instead of the Bottle. The Ball and Chain is still equipped over the Spinner where it would be equipped over the Bottle."

The note after the Palace of Twilight segment about two different Final Cleanup segements was removed.

In the Final Cleanup Segment: As a result of the potential for the Poe to have been obtained earlier in the run, a note was added: "If you obtained the Poe on the dock earlier in the run, you may skip doing so now.". (I'm aware this seems obvious, but keep in mind you'll probably have done it at least five hours ago)

The equip during Hyrule Castle was changed to flip two of the equips for equip optimization and to include the Bottle with Rare Chu Jelly. The eqiup now is:
--(E Spinner^Ball and Chain, Hero's Bow^Lantern, Bottle (Rare Chu Jelly)^Gale Boomerang)
----[Double Clawshots/Spinner/Hero's Bow/Bottle]



Techniques:

The strategy for the Beast Ganondorf fight with Rare Chu Jelly is:
Shoot him with an arrow
Sidehop to avoid his skid
Drink Jelly
Greatspin
Transform Wolf
Always First Portal
Throw him as Wolf (Jelly should run out sometime during this throw)
Spin Attack as Wolf kills.




Final Cleanup (No Savewarp):

   If you obtained the Poe on the dock earlier in the run, you may skip doing so now.

Exit PoT (W Snowpeak Top)
Connection Cave, Poe (56/60) (W Snowpeak Top)
Yeta Race for PoH (19 1/5 HP) (W Kakariko Gorge)
Gale Boomerang PoH on pillar, Clawshot to pillar while Gale Boomerang is in the air (19 2/5 HP), PoH in chest (19 3/5 HP) (W Lake Hylia)
Dash to Spirit Cave, Spirit Cave PoH (19 4/5 HP), dash to dock, Poe on dock (57/60) (W Lake Hylia)
Stepping stones to Poe by 2nd tear location (58/60), dash to cannon house, cannon to FBF (90R), Safety Save inside FBF, FBF to ledge beneath FBF (70R) for Poe (59/60) (W Sacred Grove)
Poe inside Sacred Grove (60/60) (W CT)
Wolf based Mailman Skip, enter CT, Clawshot MG for Giant Quiver (55R), hand in 7 bugs (get 550R) (600R)
600R towards Donation PoH (1000/1000) (0R) (20 HP)
Hand in final 9 bugs (get 600R, Giant Wallet) (600R)
Malo Mart Castle Town Branch, buy Magic Armor (2R).
Hidden Skill- Great Spin (7/7), enter Hyrule Castle
« Last Edit: October 06, 2015, 02:26:11 PM by Habreno »

Offline Habreno

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Re: Glitchless
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2015, 05:19:03 PM »
Updated Files: 100%, Glitch List


Morpheel Fast Regrabs was added to the allowed tricks list.



RNG rupee comments were updated to reflect the new rupee route.


The segment after KB1 was renamed Death Mountain (used to be Eldin Province)

The segment after Goron Mines was split into two segments, due to length and an easy break point. The new segments are Eldin Province and Lanayru Twilight.

The Water Bomb purchase after Telma Escort was changed from 15 (or 10) to 5, as a result of rupee route changes (discussed below)

As a result of the above Water Bomb purchase change, the 10 Water Bomb chest in the first room of Lakebed Temple is now acquired.

The Poe and Piece of Heart in the Sacred Grove were moved to immediately after the Master Sword, to eat up some D/N cycle. The Water Bomb count, the Heart count, and the Poe counts were all updated as a result. The comment concerning acquring the Poe on the dock was also removed as a result of this change.
-- With quick play, you can still be "early". I need to further test if the potential to savewarp to Spirit Cave, get that PoH, and then backtrack to the poe would work with quick play.

Some of the Golden Bugs were moved. The Golden Bug numbering was updated as a result.
-- All of the Golden Bugs moved are listed in the rupee route, below.

The visit to the Goron to unlock Springwater Run was moved to the night cycle during Activating the Dominion Rod. As a result of this and the Golden Bug being moved, a warp to Castle Town was eliminated.

After the Cave of Ordeals, 400R are donated to the Old Man for the Donation Piece of Heart. These 400R now complete the 1000R necessary, acquiring the Piece of Heart. The Heart count was again updated as a result.

During the City in the Sky Segment, the peahat snipe was included as a (potentially) faster way to get through the Gardens.
-- I still need to find exactly where this point is that you snipe from, as I forgot to write down where I was when I got it. Expect this to be updated soon when I do find the spot.


The rupee route was changed (again):

-- The Golden Bug by the hill near the broken bridge to Castle Town was moved to the new Eldin Province segment. It is now Golden Bug #7.

-- During the Lanayru Province Segment, there are now 9 Golden Bugs are now handed in to Agathia (3 pairs, 3 individual bugs for 50R or the Big Wallet) to obtain 550R and the Big Wallet. Immediately afterward, all 600 rupees are donated to the Old Man for the Donation PoH.
---- As a result, at least 9 RNG rupees are necessary between the beginning of the game and completing the Lanayru Twilight.

-- Instead of throwing away the bombs during Telma Escort, the bombs are now saved to sell to Barnes. At least 20 bombs are necessary to obtain the 30 rupees needed to purchase 5 Water Bombs. If you have less, it's possible to get rupee drops from the grass or to get rupees from a rock.

-- The Golden Bug by the Amphitheater in Castle Town Field East was moved to immediately before entering Castle Town during the Finding the Temple of Time segment. This is now Golden Bug #15.

-- During the Finding the Temple of Time segment, 6 bugs are handed in, just as before. However, due to route changes, the bugs handed in now award 500R (2 pairs, 2 individual bugs for 100R each)

-- The rupees beneath the rocks on DMT were removed as they are no longer necessary. They may, however, be backups if you do not get enough rupees from the Stalhounds.

-- Only 50R are necessary from City in the Sky. The 50R chest you choose is likely personal preference, but testing is welcomed. A side alternative is if you get a 50R drop or a 100R drop from one of the armored Dynaflos (if it's bothering you and you have to kill it), but this side alternative won't be mentioned as it's extremely unlikely.




The poe route was slightly changed:

-- The Poe in the Sacred Grove beneath the rock was moved to immediately after obtaining the Master Sword.

-- As a result of moving the Poe and Piece of Heart, the D/N cycle should be late enough that it's faster to wait if necessary and obtain the Poe on the dock in Lake Hylia now instead of during the Final Cleanup.



Techniques:

It's possible to snipe the peahat leading to the Poe by the tree in City in the Sky. This skips having to wait for the peahat from the second half of the room to enter, making it more likely you'll be able to make a faster cycle in the room.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2015, 07:07:09 AM by Habreno »

Offline Habreno

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Re: Glitchless
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2015, 03:29:08 AM »
Usual Update, 100% file.


During the Eldin Province segment, the Piece of Heart the ledges was removed. It was moved to the Hunting the Cave of Ordeals segment (listed below).

During the Lakebed Temple segment, the Spirit Cave Piece of Heart was moved to after obtaining the Piece of Heart in the clawshot side of the dungeon. Ooccoo is used for this, necessitating grabbing Ooccoo before turning the stairs (which moves the water to the boss key side of the dungeon). The alternative to this is to savewarp after the Lake Hylia Poe during Final Cleanup or to simply dash there.
-- One of the advantages of Ooccoo is that the text Ooccoo says inside Temple of Time is shorter, and there's no yes/no choice to be made in it. As annoying as Ooccoo is to obtain and use in Lakebed Temple, it's very close to as quick, if not faster than, any other alternative for the PoH, all factors considered.

As a result of equipping the Lantern during the Lakebed Temple segment, an equip change was made during the Lakebed Temple segment and an equip change were made during the To Arbiter's Grounds segment.
-- After returning to Lakebed Temple with Ooccoo JR. only the Water Bombs are equipped over Ooccoo. The Lantern is left equipped.
-- After obtaining the Bottle in the Fishing Hole, the Hero's Bow is equipped over the Fishing Rod, the Gale Boomerang is equipped over the Iron Boots, and the Bomb Bag (Bombs) is comboed with the Hero's Bow.
-- There is an option to obtain a Fairy during this segment. If you wish to, during the above equip, equip the empty bottle just obtained over the Clawshot. This changes the Auru's Memo equip to over the Bottle (Fairy) instead of the Clawshot. A note was added at the beginning of this statement informing of such.

During the To Arbiter's Grounds segment, the Golden Bug near the Amphitheater in Castle Town was moved to prior to warping to Zora's Domain. This is now Golden Bug #11. This is used to eat up D/N cycle time, and make the wolf-based mailman skip easier during Finding the Temple of Time segment. (There is a rather consistent setup for getting the jump attack while dashing from the warp spawn, while without the setup it is very difficult)

During the To Arbiter's Grounds segment, the Bomb Bag equip was changed to the Water Bombs, which should have 5 remaining. Each bomb has a planned use, so if there are less than 5, either at some point or immediately a different bag will need to be equipped.

During the Snowpeak Mountain segment, the poe on the hill near the Golden Bug was moved from prior to obtaining Ashei's Sketch to after obtaining Reekfish Scent, to optimize movement on the first visit to Snowpeak.

During the Finding the Temple of Time segment, as a result of acquiring the Golden Bug earlier, after warping to Castle Town, you simply do a wolf-based Mailman skip instead of detouring for the bug.

During the Finding the Temple of Time segment, after handing in the six Golden Bugs, the savewarp was changed to moving to the area by Telma's Bar in order to warp.

During the Finding the Temple of Time segment, the Lantern equip was moved to after entering the Sacred Grove, to allow for using the Iron Boots during the Cucco flight.
-- This equip was also missing the corresponding equip listing, which is now included.

During the Activating the Dominion Rod segment, the order of the Golden Bug by the tower and Hidden Skill 6 was reversed, to optimize movement (as the previous Golden Bug is closer to the Hidden Skill)

During the Activating the Dominion Rod segment, the equip after obtaining the Isle of Riches was moved to after the second Flight by Fowl, to enable Iron Boots for the second flight. While the equip is listed at the end of the line (to save some space, as a warp to Kakariko Village is next), it's ideally done as you roll after landing on the platform, prior to obtaining the Poe.
-- As a note, it is *highly* recommend to make this safety save, as for some reason it seems that if you go for it immediately, unless you're extremely quick you'll run out of time before the Poe beneath the platform, while the safety save will work with plenty of time to spare. I am unsure why this is, it may be related to how the D/N cycle is saved in the game's memory. It is possible to make the Poe without the safety save, but the timing is extremely strict. To emphasize the point, it's listed to SAVE instead of simply stating it's a Safety Save.

During the Hunting the Cave of Ordeals segment, the Piece of Heart on the ledge in Hyrule Field West is now obtained during Springwater Run. If you do not feel comfortable obtaining it here and getting the water delievered in time, you may obtain the Piece of Heart earlier, during the Eldin Province segment.

During the Double Clawshots segment, Fan Activation Skip (for the Boss Key room) is listed as an "if you can do it quickly enough" trick (in ~4 seconds, not counting transformations)


General Route Updates:

Malo Mart Donations are now listed in the same form as the Donation Piece of Heart, where the amount donated is listed and the total needed is also listed.


Techniques (Expansion on previously-mentioned):

The setup for the Wolf-Based Mailman Skip in Castle Town is from the warp-in, hold forward and dash immediately, then dash again immediately when possible. Quickly press Z and hit A immediately after to jump over the trigger.

The location for the Peahat Snipe in City in the Sky is closer to the Peahat rather than farther away. It is near the center of the two blocks, but on the block closer to the Peahat.

If you take damage during Beast Ganondorf (after the boosted great spin) a normal spin attack won't quite kill him. Adding a jump attack will finish him off. It's also recommended to transform Human after throwing him down, though if you don't take damage I don't believe it matters.


PB is down to 9:21:51.80, and I fully expect that it's possible to get sub-9 hours.

Offline Habreno

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Re: Glitchless
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2015, 03:08:03 PM »
100% route updated- Route now, by default, includes Greatspin for CoO.


A comment about Deku Like Skip was added to the Gale Boomerang segment.

The equip change during the Lanayru Province segment was changed from equipping the Bomb Bag over the Lantern to over the Gale Boomerang. The location of this equip change was also moved to after Telma Escort.

The Poe on the dock in Lake Hylia was apparently missing.

Rupee count during the Spinner segment was horridly incorrect. How the count remained incorrect this long is unknown, but it has been severely punished and updated.
-- As a result of this, the RNG rupee requirements were updated to their proper values. 95R are required to be obtained from Telma Escort to Death Mountain Trail Collection (during Activating the Dominion Rod's Night Cycle), 35 of which must be acquired after Snowboarding post-Snowpeak Ruins (due to wallet cap). Even though this seems like quite a bit of rupees, there are many sources and it is expected that these rupees will not be difficult to obtain. A further 30R are required for Flight by Fowl and a Cannon Ride during the Hunting the Cave of Ordeals segment.
-- Various fast sources are mentioned for obtaining these rupees.

The night cycle during Activating the Dominion Rod was modified to remove the Poe beneath Flight by Fowl. This reduces the "Hell Cycle" feel of the night cycle (this night cycle was extremely difficult to achieve as timing was extremely tight).

The Hunting the Cave of Ordeals segment was significantly expanded. This cycle now cleans up nearly everything remaining in the Overworld.


I would like to do some serious, in-depth testing of the mailman triggers in the game, and see which ones are potentially skippable (other than Castle Town bridge).

Even though I know it's likely obvious, I realize I've never put in a list of abbreviations I use. Here's some of the more uncommon ones:
E - Equip (in parenthesis)
W - Warp (in parenthesis)
MJ - Midna Jump
GB - Golden Bug
ASA - All Strats Allowed (miniboss and boss fight)
M&C - Mother and Child (Rocks in Lower ZD)
MG - Minigame


I will still be reviewing the Any% route and updating it as necessary given the new tricks. I do not actively run Any% Glitchless but it's still a necessary route to have typed up.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2015, 10:12:50 PM by Habreno »

Offline dragonbane0

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Re: Glitchless
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2015, 05:59:08 PM »
Glitchless sadly isn't receiving much interest outside the JP community, but I wanted to let you know that your work is highly appreciated :D
Gave your latest route a throughout read and it seems quite solid. Have you done any attempts with this or have any estimate what time you could get?

Offline Habreno

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Re: Glitchless
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2015, 10:10:52 PM »
Glitchless sadly isn't receiving much interest outside the JP community, but I wanted to let you know that your work is highly appreciated :D
Gave your latest route a throughout read and it seems quite solid. Have you done any attempts with this or have any estimate what time you could get?

Aww, thank-you. *hugs*

*is now re-motivated to update Any%*

Been running the route for the past few months- started working on it after SGDQ 2015, probably started running routes within a month after. I generally only have time to attempt one run per week so I rarely reset once I'm past Ordon Village. Tuesday's (12/15) attempt will be run attempt 40. I'd guess I've completed at least half of those; the rest usually die in the first hour. I had one nasty reset I had to do because of a pseduo-softlock in Death Sword fight (Death Sword was stuck thinking the ground was well above Link's head and as a result was unkillable) and that was a bit over four hours in.

I do have a few variations I personally do on the posted route:
-- I do the 1.5 cycle Diababa instead of Ookless Diababa.
-- I do not even attempt the wolf-based Bomb House Skip; I haven't even gotten it when I was working on the trick for over an hour straight. I suspect I will never be implementing it.
-- I do not do the 2nd Key Shard Skip. I suspect that with practice I will be able to get this trick.
-- I get the Hyrule Field PoH much earlier; it does require a slight equip change in the posted route (which I will make next update, likely coming tomorrow after my run attempt) but I think it's faster to get this during Springwater Run.
-- My Lakebed Temple sucks. This having been said, there is a room strat for the double cog room when returning from the boss key.
-- I worry about arrow count for CoO. In fact, my CoO can probably be *much* faster (my CoO time is 26:20- from black on entry to black on reset after saving. Slow as hell.)
-- I do not do the 2-cycle Argarok fight; I am also very slow at this fight in general and not able to get the flame skips consistently.
---- Overall, I'm generally sloppier than I should be. I'd guess I lose at least twenty minutes from not being as tight with my play as I should be, and further time can probably be saved from not worrying about my health as much.
---- Because of the above, night cycles might need some adjustment. They're generally close; the worst delay is the second one (during Activating the Dominion Rod) but I would much rather be early for this one than late.

My times are posted on ZSR's TP 100% page; my PB is currently 9:11:38.07; as real life is a thing I do unfortunately need to take two brief breaks (less than 5 minutes) during the run to check the fire and keep it burning, so it isn't "true" RTA but it's as close as I can get given the requirement of tending a fire. The first one is after the first savewarp (during To Arbiter's Grounds); the second one is after the CoO savewarp.
When there is no fire to tend, I do run true RTA, without breaks. I do not record, though I am passively working on a recording setup.


My sum of bests is 8:50:11.36, though I suspect that a few of my splits are slightly off. I'd put the true SoB at around 8 hours 53 minutes. I have a lot of room for improvement in my play skill, and I would estimate that a better runner can probably get close to the 8:30 mark, with practice.



Lakebed Temple- Double Cog room- From Boss Key Grove to Central Room:

From entrance, quick clawshot far target on left, drop immediately, land on stalagmite. Move to forward edge of stalagmite. Clawshot target on next wheel (anticipate max range), drop and jumpslash immediately to land on the stalagmite. Clawshot vines, climb and out. This skips half a rotation of the wheels, as otherwise you'll have to wait to get around to the stalagmite on the other side. You may be interrupted by keese on the second stalagmite but by then you're out of the difficult part.

If you void out, you'll be unable to make the first clawshot as the wheels spin during the respawn (while they don't during the door entrance). You'll have to take the next target, wait for it to be in position, and be very fast with the rest of it as the second clawshot is very quick once you drop; a way to get a bit more time is to estimate and drop+jumpslash to land on the first stalagmite.

It's slightly slower than waiting for the half rotation if you do void out; I'd recommend going for it and be prepared to abort and wait it out than void/reset. If you miss it first try I'd almost always just wait it out unless you feel very good about going for it.


Mailman talk:

After the Mailman outside Kakariko Village (Hyrule Field West, during the Eldin Province segment, after Goron Mines)- the last mailman you'd *have* to hit, as you're on Epona, you shouldn't have to hit any more Mailman triggers. I have a feeling, thanks to various testing I've done, that *every* Mailman trigger (at least on Wii 1.0) is skippable with either a dashing jump-attack or a normal jump attack. The only reason to ever have to hit a mailman is because of Epona, and if a fast way of skipping these triggers is found with Epona (Four or five skips are necessary with Epona, and a further two are implied) then the mailman can be completely skipped.

-- Hyrule Field South to Kakariko Gorge, pre-Eldin Twilight. Given the direction of approach (from the PoH), there's actually *two* mailman triggers to skip. Both of these can be jump attacked over.
-- Kakariko Gorge, pre-Iron Boots. We ride around any potential trigger by detouring for the Golden Bug.
-- Hyrule Field South from Kakarko Gorge, pre-Iron Boots. We're on Epona here so we'd need a way to skip this while getting Epona across the trigger. Ditching Epona is overall slower than getting the Mailman, and we can't leave Epona behind as we need her for the Goats PoH (so her position would be reset)
-- Hyrule Field South to Kakariko Gorge, pre-KB1. Once again, we're on Epona...
-- Kakariko Gorge, pre-KB1. We can ride around if necessary; this would be faster than hitting it.
-- Hyrule Field West, pre-Lanayru Twilight. We're on Epona, though this isn't as big an issue here. We can drop off Epona early, clear the trigger as Human, and then when we hit the vines, the trigger should deactivate, allowing us to cross it with Epona. That having been said, I don't know if there's other triggers in the Hyrule Field West area.
-- Bridge of Eldin, pre-Lanayru Twilight. Once again, we're on Epona. Not sure if there's one or two triggers here, believe there's two at this point in time. If we've skipped everything prior to this, it might actually be faster to ditch Epona and jump the triggers as Human, though this would mean we get the Golden Bug the slow way. I'll have to test this in the next run assuming I get the above skip.

If we're skipping the Mailman throughout the rest of the run, the following skips become necessary (picks up during ATDR- Activating the Dominion Rod segment)

Hyrule Field South, during ATDR Night. Mailman while coming from Kakariko Gorge. Can be skipped but no setup for it; wolf-based Mailman skips are hard without a setup.
Hyrule Field South, during ATDR Night. Might be a trigger near the Lanayru Province area. Unknown.
Great Bridge of Hylia, during ATDR Night. One or two triggers (likely just one, since there's no portal). Likely skippable, though once again wolf-based is hard. Double transform is slow but might be worth it.

Bridge of Eldin, after ATDR Night. One trigger (warp in), probably can come up with a setup for it (given the warp in).

Bridge of Eldin, during Hunting the Cave Day. Same as above.
Bridge of Eldin, during Hunting the Cave Day. Two triggers, with the Owl Statue. Not fun, but doable (drop control twice)
Kakariko Gorge, during Hunting the Cave Day. Easily dashed around.
Hyrule Field West, during Hunting the Cave Day. Any potential triggers here (bridge to Castle Town) likely disabled by Springwater Run setup.

Hyrule Field North, during Hunting the Cave Night. Coming off the bridge, absolutely no idea where exactly this trigger is. Also don't know where all the triggers are in this area; quite possible we'd hit at least one more while here. Probably the hardest area for these triggers.
Bridge of Eldin, during Hunting the Cave Night. See BoE after ATDR Night.
Castle Town Field, during Hunting the Cave Night. Usual wolf-based Mailman Skip.

Castle Town Field, during Final Cleanup. Usual wolf-based Mailman Skip.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2015, 10:26:03 PM by Habreno »

Offline dragonbane0

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Re: Glitchless
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2015, 06:01:15 AM »
Wow really great stuff. Seems you put quite a lot of work into the category, that's dedication! From what you have been saying 8:30 indeed sounds like a very solid time, which would be quite awesome to have (as it's only a good 1:30 off from the glitched time). If you keep the timer running while you look after real life stuff it's entirely legal btw and you could still upload it. The Death Sword softlock is sadly quite well known, currently the only way to get out of it is either death warping with bombs or to wait until he comes back down. This does eventually happen, but it can take quite a while, really lame glitch.

Could you perhaps upload your routes to pastebin? ZSR is quite buggy for me, so I wasn't able to download your attached route file with proper formatting and it was all messed up. That would be awesome  :)

Keep it up!

Offline Habreno

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Re: Glitchless
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2015, 10:45:24 AM »
Next route I do will go up on Pastebin as well as be uploaded here. -- http://pastebin.com/t0sc19eP -- Has not been fully proofread, may contain minor typos/inaccuracies (though nothing that should affect the overall run)
Plan on finishing the proofread and hopefully getting it up soon. Note that I likely will be unable to attempt a run until after the new year. Though I can still test changes, I won't be able to fully go through the route in a run scenario for a couple weeks.

I put the work in because I enjoy it.


Currently finishing up Mailman trigger research; current point of research is a potential Epona-based South Hyrule Field Mailman Skip. I've got every other skip I want; some may need better visual cues or setups but I have done every other skip. There would be a few route changes but if all works out there would be *one* mailman in the entire run (Hyrule Field West, after Goron Mines; we take the trigger here because it's better than taking it on the Bridge of Eldin)
-- Followup on testing. For some reason, the first Mailman trigger in South Hyrule Field is *different* than other Mailman triggers... in the exact same spot. The trigger cannot be ridden around, nor can it be walked around, unlike later triggers that exist in the exact same spot. WHY TWILIGHT PRINCESS WHYYYYY?

From the beginning:
-- South Hyrule Field to Eldin Twilight: Two or three triggers, all can be jump attacked over as Human.
-- Kakariko Gorge: We ride around any potential triggers here.
-- South Hyrule Field from Kakariko Gorge: This trigger needs to be researched and tested; we are on Epona here.
-- South Hyrule Field to Kakariko Gorge: Same as above.
-- Kakarkio Gorge: Can ride around the trigger.
-- Hyrule Field West: Can likely be skipped, but would be taken because of the Bridge of Eldin triggers.
-- Bridge of Eldin: Can be skipped but would force us to drop Epona, which is slower than taking the trigger.
-- Castle Town Bridge: Can be jump attacked over.

Skip ahead to Activating the Dominion Rod (only mailman trigger between first CT bridge and here is another CT bridge trigger):
-- Hyrule Field South from Kakariko Gorge: Triggers can be ran around by hugging the South wall.
-- Hyrule Field South to Great Bridge of Hylia: Triggers can be ran around by hugging North wall. There is a setup I have found for this (will post when next update)
-- Great Bridge of Hylia: Two triggers, visual cues for both of them.
-- Bridge of Eldin from Warp-In: Nearly two dashes; trigger is edge of third full "pattern" after the broken bridge piece crack.
-- Bridge of Eldin with Owl Statue: Two triggers, visual cues for both of them. I believe control drops are required to clear the triggers (have not tested backhops/backflips yet)
-- Kakariko Gorge to Owl Statue: Hug fence to avoid trigger.
-- Hyrule Field North: No clue where the triggers are with the exception of one. Rerouted this area to avoid the trigger areas
---- Instead of : Poe on Bridge -> Grotto -> Bug -> Block Puzzle -> Spinner
---- We now do: Poe on Bridge -> Block Puzzle -> Grotto -> Bug -> Spinner
---- Only case where you might hit a trigger is there is a trigger in line with the tree where the Bug is. Fortunately, Gale Boomerang is currently equipped at this point and can be used to avoid risking hitting the trigger.


I also need to research a potential route change after Snowpeak Ruins. Near the point where we're heading to Sacred Grove 2, D/N cycle is relatively close to night (think maybe a couple minutes active time off). There is a possibility of moving a bit of night cycle to pre-Temple of Time (as Temple of Time resets D/N cycle to roughly mid-day), doing the Activating the Dominion Rod segment, and then doing just a couple things prior to entering Cave of Ordeals. Since Cave of Ordeals also resets D/N cycle (to mid-night), this leaves us the night required for Hidden Village 2 (and the Poe) and the Amphitheater Poe. The only downside to this would be having to get the Howling Stone during HV1. I need to play with it a bit.
-- Update on this: Yeah, this is just insanely good. By adding in the Connection Cave poe (and potentially the 100R chest if you need it), resuming the current route, and then adding in a bit of night cycle after HS5 in Kakariko Graveyard (starting with Plumm Minigame), we hit night cycle very shortly after. We do adjust the other two nights but that's not a big deal. Finishing up the route now and I *might* be able to test it in a run when I wake up.


Expect an proper update within a couple days; I want to get good visual cues for the Mailman skips.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2015, 11:17:06 PM by Habreno »

Offline Habreno

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Re: Glitchless
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2015, 04:09:46 AM »
Attached: 100%
Linked: 100% http://pastebin.com/X4SeshsW

I have managed to test an alternative night cycle route. Don't ask about the run that tested it, though.
-- Hint: I'm usually around +10 minutes on my sum of bests around the Spinner split, and finish around +20 minutes on my SoB.
-- Hint2: The run, at the Spinner split, compared to SoB, was -19s. Yes, 19 seconds *under* SoB. We still finished +20 minutes, and (would have) PB'ed by just 7.29 seconds.
-- Hint3: There's a reason I say "would have" and not "did". Jovani never gave me his bottle, so it's not even truly 100%
-- Hint4: As if all that wasn't enough, I lost the splits from the run. Partly because I was comparing to old route splits, partly because I closed the splits without saving them, even after copying over what I could figure out.

On a side note, the second run that tested it ended up doing much better; new PB is 9:04:38.81; new SoB is 8:48:00.56. I still think 8:30 is possible, though I don't think I'll personally ever reach it.


That all said, on to the meat of the post (changes). Sorry it's a bit long.


Version 1.0 was specified, due to a few minor changes being made from Wii 1.0 to all other versions.
Any Wii version should be able to do the run, the minor changes simply include the expansion of mailman triggers and the inability to warp while underwater.
-- Mailman triggers likely total a minute or two over the run; there's really not that many triggers you have to hit (the reason for so many skips is because of all the triggers that continue to exist *because* they're skipped)
---- Castle Town, during Lanayru Province
---- Castle Town, during Finding the Temple of Time
---- Castle Town, during Activating the Dominion Rod
---- Bridge of Eldin, during Hunting the Cave of Ordeals
---- Castle Town, during Hunting the Cave of Ordeals
---- Bridge of Eldin, during Finding a Cannon
---- Castle Town, during Final Cleanup
-- Underwater warp is ~15s loss, and as it's only once it's not that big a deal.

Still not sure if the run is better done on a Wii or a Wii U; the former has faster resets via RESET button and the latter is probably slightly less laggy, though I don't think lag is much of an issue. Either console is fine.

Because of the RNG rupee requirements going from 135R to 145R (from Telma Escort to Hunting the Cave of Ordeals), I have included a 100R chest, reducing the required RNG rupees to only 45R, a much easier sum to obtain.
-- It was listed at 125R, however, that amount was wrong, based on an incorrect value during the Lake Hylia Lantern Cave. Rupee counts were updated as a result.

Warping done via the map (instead of by talking to Midna) is now indicated with M-W instead of simply W. Map warping is done in cases where Midna will not talk to you immediately or in cases where you cannot normally warp with Midna.

If you fail Cutscene Skip, the route necessary to return to the SK room is listed at the end of the route.
-- No, I have not yet done this, but I figure it's worth including anyway.


During the Eldin Twilight Segment, we now obtain the Golden Bugs in the Hyrule Field South area, as well as hit the Mailman trigger. These Golden Bugs have been removed from the KB1 segment as a result.

During the Lakebed Temple Dungeon, we no longer obtain Ooccoo, as it's now slower (see Temple of Time below). Equips have been updated as a result.
-- Ooccoo to Spirit Cave for Spirit Cave PoH is removed; PoH quantities updated throughout the run as a result.

During the Clawshot Segment, movement in the 1F Single Cog Room was included.

During the To Arbiter's Grounds segment, the savewarp was removed to allow for more D/N cycle passing. As such, the comment about uneqiupping the Hero's Clothes was also removed.
-- Note that with this savewarp being removed, the very first save in the route is over four and a half hours into the run, after obtaining the Ball and Chain. Just keep that in mind.
---- Savewarp removed to eat up some D/N cycle, as there's absolutely nothing I can do extra to do so efficiently.

Also during the To Arbiter's Grounds segment, the Clawshot equip and the Water Bomb equips were combined into one equip, saving an item menu access.

During the Temple of Time Dungeon, there is an Ooccoo Skip by tightly hugging the right (going up)/left (going down) wall. And I mean *tightly*.
-- You need to pretty much be rolling straight up the stairs with almost no deviation otherwise you will hit the trigger. I suspect that a jump attack can also clear it and may be slightly easier, though the precise angle is still required.


The route was modified in the later part of the run (Post Snowpeak Ruins) to optimize the overworld collection. The changes start in the Finding the Temple of Time segment and affects every overworld segment from there on out.
-- Piece of Heart, Golden Bug, and Poe counts were all updated throughout the rest of the run as a result of the route change.

- During Finding the Temple of Time:
-- After obtaining the Poe outside Snowpeak Ruins, instead of warping to Kakariko Village, we now warp to Snowpeak Top, to collect the Poe inside the Connection Cave. This also gives an opportunity for a 100R chest if you have 500R or less, as a backup. This is included now to burn some D/N cycle and to act as a backup chest. We then warp to Kakariko Village and continue as normal up to Hidden Skill 5 in the Kakariko Graveyard.
-- After obtaining Hidden Skill 5 in the Kakariko Graveyard, we then warp to Snowpeak Top, for Yeta race. This is more D/N cycle timekill.
-- After Yeta Race (and the Piece of Heart), we warp to Lake Hylia for Plumm Minigame. This *ensures* that we're into night by the time we start the night cycle.
-- We then start the night cycle:
--- UZR Poe, wolf to waterway to North Hyrule Field, North Hyrule Field Mailmanless route. Equip after breaking the rocks to the Castle Town Field Bypass:
---- Spinner over Ball and Chain
--- Pick up rupees if necessary (must have 30R or more), Spinner to Castle Town Field Bypass Piece of Heart, then warp Lake Hylia
--- Stepping Stones Poe, wolf to Cannon House, Cannon to Flight by Fowl, safety save. Flight by Fowl to Isle of Riches
--- 100R chest, Piece of Heart chest, 50R chest, Isle of Riches Poe, wolf to Cannon House. Cannon to Flight by Fowl, Flight by Fowl to ledge beneath Flight by Fowl. Equip upon landing, prior to Poe:
---- Lantern over Iron Boots, Hero's Bow over Clawshot
--- Poe beneath Flight by Fowl, warp North Faron, resume with Sacred Grove II

- Equip Changes in Dominion Rod segment:
-- Ball and Chain now equipped over Lantern (was over Bomb Arrows)
-- Clawshot now equipped over Gale Boomerang; Dominion Rod equipped over Hero's Bow.

- During Activating the Dominion Rod:
-- Normal with one addition here, through the majority of night cycle, one equip change:
--- Lantern over Aged Dominion Rod, Renaldo's Letter over Spinner
--- After Iza 2, wolf to Spirit Cave, Spirit Cave Piece of Heart, then warp to Castle Town, resume as normal.
-- Night Cycle: Normal to Great Bridge of Hylia Poe
--- 50R chest, turn Wolf, Poe.
--- Wolf to Golden Bug in tree, Equip:
---- Aged Dominion Rod over Lantern, Wooden Statue, Uncombo Bomb Bag (Bombs)
--- Warp Kakariko Village, hand in Statue, Warp Sacred Grove
--- Sacred Grove Poe, Warp Gerudo Mesa
--- Gerudo Mesa Poe, Warp bridge piece to Bridge of Eldin
--- Wolf (with Mailman Skip) to Hidden Village, Hidden Village Howling Stone
--- Sniping Minigame, Equip:
---- Spinner (over Aged Dominion Rod), Ball and Chain, Iza's Charm, Ancient Sky Book
--- End of segment equip is now:
---- Dominion Rod over Ancient Sky Book, Clawshot over Spinner

- During Hunting the Cave of Ordeals:
-- Starts off slightly different, other than that mostly normal.
--- From the Castle Town warp, dash to Amphitheater for the Poe here (yes, it's *still* night, though not by much)
--- Amphitheater Letter, then call Epona with Horse Call.
--- Epona to Great Bridge of Hylia Owl Statue, Letter, cross to 100R chest
--- Roll to Great Bridge of Hylia, Golden Bug on Bridge, Warp to South Faron, Resume
--- Bridge of Eldin Mailman Skip, Storage Cave, Equip:
---- Iron Boots over Horse Call, Lantern over Ball and Chain
--- 100R chest at bottom, Piece of Heart, exit
--- Clawshot to Bridge, Letter, then Owl Statue to other end with double Mailman Skip. Piece of Heart, warp Kakariko Gorge
--- Dash to Lantern Cave, Equip: Resume
---- Ball and Chain over Clawshot, Gale Boomerang over Iron Boots
--- Springwater Run, Equip: Resume
---- Hero's Bow over Dominion Rod, Combo Bomb Bag (Bombs)
--- Normal to Malo Mart Purchases, Warp Castle Town
---- Added full description of already-listed equip changes
--- Normal to Cave of Ordeals

- During Finding a Cannon:
-- Gerudo Desert Owl Statue, Equip:
--- Filled Ancient Sky Book over Ball and Chain
-- Warp Bridge of Eldin, Bridge of Eldin Mailman Skip en route to Hidden Village
-- Hidden Village II normal, warp Kakariko Village, normal to City in the Sky

- Final Cleanup:
-- Exit PoT, warp Kakariko Gorge
-- Kakariko Gorge Pieces of Heart, Warp Castle Town
-- Normal to finish.



More Mailman Talk (hopefully the last of it):

Prior to KB1:

See prior post. Long story short, Epona is faster, even getting the trigger, than not using Epona and skipping the trigger.
- Based on a bunch of research, current route (PoH + Mailman skip with Epona Mailman and Bugs after Eldin Twilight) or full Hyrule Field South collection + Mailman Trigger prior to Eldin Twilight is best.
-- Further testing is necessary to determine which is quicker, though I have a feeling that it is faster to get everything prior to entering the Twilight by about ten seconds. Getting everything prior to Eldin Twilight is included in the route.

After Goron Mines:

Despite the ability to skip the trigger exiting Kakariko Village, I feel it's better to get the trigger here than to completely skip it or get it on the Bridge of Eldin:
- Completely skipping the trigger means no Epona to Lanayru Twilight. Despite the time gained from not having the Mailman, the time lost from not having Epona to Lanayru Twilight is greater. There is no horse grass on the other side of the Bridge of Eldin, and no current method exists for getting Epona across active Mailman triggers.
- Getting the Mailman on Bridge of Eldin. Slower, because it means no Golden Bug fast strat.

During Finding the Temple of Time, Activating the Dominion Rod, Hunting the Cave of Ordeals, and Finding a Cannon:

- Hyrule Field North. Tough trigger. If someone can come up with a visual cue for the location of the trigger(s) in this area that would be great.
-- Rerouting of this area evades these triggers.
-- There is one trigger in line with the tree that has the Golden Bug on it which has to be watched while obtaining the Golden Bug. Using the Gale Boomerang (currently equipped at this point) keeps you well away from this trigger.

- Hyrule Field South. Kakariko Gorge to Hyrule Field South. Tough triggers, multiple triggers (believed to be two or three), completely evadable.
-- Hug the South wall for a bit, then going straight north just to the left of the middle plateau. Triggers are just to your left.
-- Visual cue is the first corner where the wall turns left; dash at a slight angle towards the Poe
--- This trigger is, for some reason, different from the initial trigger that exists here, despite the fact that both triggers exist in the same exact spot.

- Hyrule Field South. Hyrule Field South to Great Bridge of Hylia. Several triggers (believe two), completely evadable.
-- From the Poe: Grass patch to your north, dash towards it, aiming slightly right of it. When you near the patch, slowly curve towards the wall. Hug the wall and you'll go around the triggers.

- Bridge of Eldin. From a warp-in, traveling North, slightly before the third dash for the wolf-based jump attack over the trigger. It's a jump you need to practice and get the feel for.
-- Visual cue is third full pattern past the broken portion of the bridge, though this is hard to see quickly.

- Bridge of Edlin. With the Owl Statue, two triggers. Both can be jump attacked over, drop control twice.
-- First trigger: Edge of the third full pattern away. Pulling out sword will cause a slight step forward, so back up a bit to get it.
-- Second trigger: Near edge of second full pattern past. Stop on line between 2nd and 3rd row of second full pattern past.
-- I don't believe it's possible to backflip over the trigger (with the Owl Statue). For some reason I still haven't tested this yet.

- Kakariko Gorge. Dash around it by hugging the fence. Only comes up when going for the Owl Statue, as it's only on the Kakariko Village side of the bridge.


Even though it's no longer part of the route, posted here for reference:
- Great Bridge of Hylia. Despite no setup, good visual cues. Yes, it is two triggers. These cues are while going toward Castle Town.
-- First Trigger: Edge of second broken parapet.
-- Second Trigger: Far edge of second-to-last broken parapet. Parapet in question is the second small broken parapet.
--- As this area is not visited by the current route, I have not fully tested these triggers so they may be slightly off. Consider the above a rough guide.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2016, 09:44:51 AM by Habreno »

Offline Habreno

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Re: Glitchless
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2016, 03:40:34 PM »
Updated: 100%: http://pastebin.com/f6G4QcUf
New file: Interesting Tidbits: http://pastebin.com/ezxWn2eC


A few typos and minor formatting errors were fixed throughout the route. In addition, bomb and arrow counts were incorrectly noted in a few cases (route count was not aligned with what you would actually have)


During the Eldin Twilight segment, the Howling Stone is now entered as soon as the bug explodes, rather than as soon as the tear forms, as the bug exploding is when the game registers it as being dead.

A note was added to the beginning of the Lanayru Twilight segment noting to avoid having bugs land in the water, as the tear takes longer to form in that case (Wii 1.0 issue, I think; included in Speedups/Slowdowns)
-- Bug corpse has to fall to bottom of water, explodes when it hits the bottom, forms tear, which floats up to set position.
-- Bug corpse on land explodes nearly immediately and tear is easily reached quickly.
---- It's possible to trick a bug into exploding instantly, though I'm not sure what the cause is- I believe it's by having the bug corpse land on Link (thus having the corpse land on something)

During the Lakebed Temple segment, the Double Cog Room Returning strategy posted earlier in this thread was included.
-- In addition, throughout the dungeon (both Clawshot and Lakebed Temple segments), navigation in the central room was mentioned

During the To Arbiter's Grounds segment, two equips were "flipped" for optimization of item placement.
-- The equip inside the Fishing Hole, prior to Iza 1: Gale Boomerang is now equipped over the Fishing Rod, while Hero's Bow is now equipped over the Iron Boots. The bomb bag is still comboed as before. Fishing rod is on B from obtaining Fishing Hole Bottle.
-- The eqiup in the Gerudo Desert: Clawshot is now equipped over Gale Boomerang, while the Bomb Bag (Water Bombs) is now equipped in the empty slot. While the Gale Boomerang may not be on B, it's likely to be as you are likely to have used it to obtain a Golden Bug.

Also during the To Arbiter's Grounds segment, the 50R chest outside the dungeon was removed as it's extremely slow.
-- This does mean you're entering AG as wolf, so whatever Room 1 strat you prefer is up to you. For reference, Bomb Arrows are likely on B from Bublin Fortress.
-- RNG rupee requirements in the middle of the run were increased from 45R to 95R.
---- 30R are required prior to Malo Mart 1 (backups are Snowboarding rupees; there's also a 100R chest after Snowboarding if you need it as well)
---- 30R are required during the Finding the Temple of Time night cycle (backups are 3x10R rocks earlier in the same night cycle)
---- 35R are required during the Hunting the Cave of Ordeals segment (backups are Stalhounds RNG rupees and 20R drops underneath the rocks on Death Mountain Trail)

The comment at the beginning of the Snowpeak Ruins segment (concerning a Zora Armor unequip) was removed as I feel it's redundant.
-- I'd like to find a good savewarp to unequip it with, but there's no good location. The only one I can think of is out of Death Sword after obtaining the Spinner, but we still have to go down for the PoH chest and we might not be able to cross the Spinner track in reverse to the Boss Key.
-- I'm also considering removing the Ball and Chain savewarp. I need to fully time it but I have a feeling it's slightly slower. We have to drop down to 1F in the entrance hall anyway to get back to the far door on 2F.
---- I'll try a non-savewarp version next run. This does unfortunately put the first save back even later (close to the 5 hour mark) but I don't really care. One less save we have to overwrite.
------ Haven't yet been able to test this; included a non-savewarp route version at the bottom of the route just in case.
-------- Non-savewarp is... interesting. Full comments below.

During the Temple of Time segment, the route in the Scales room, prior to obtaining the Boss Key, was changed. Instead of putting the heavy statue on the closer scale and going around, it's faster to get Link to the far scale and then pull the heavy statue onto the near scale, raising the far scale.

During the Hunting the Cave of Ordeals segment, Wolf to the Bomb Shop was replaced with rolling as the speedup from wolf is not enough to justify the double transformation


Added a few missing points where the mailman triggers are reactivated.


RE: Non-savewarp Snowpeak Ruins:
Room 1 is very interesting. Because the Poe isn't dead, it comes after you on the chandelier, causing issues. For 100%, this slows you down enough that it's simply easier to savewarp. You can break the ice, drop to 1F, go take care of the two Poes and the Bubble, then do the 2F PoH and crossing.

For Any%, the savewarp is slower, and thus removed. This does require rolling across the outer Courtyard room but that's faster than a double transform.


A few strategies/observations:

Forest Temple: PoH chest behind the Deku Like:
- Throw the Bombling into the wall, then immediately roll into the wall such that you jump off the upper ledge with very little speed.
-- Bombling will land in Deku Like, starting CS.
-- Since Link falls where Deku Like is, but Deku Like is busy (bombling), Link is not eaten but rolls into room.


Gor Coron heavily favors grab attacks.


If you pull out the Ball and Chain as you jump off a ledge, it gives you a fast fall effect, similar to the Iron Boots.
-- Regardless, it's useful in a few rooms in Snowpeak Ruins- Faster voidwarp after the SK chest and faster fall after cannoning the Freezard on 2F blocking the ladder to the boss key.
---- Despite giving a fast fall effect, it does not let you get pulled to magnet beams. Darn.

IMPORTANT
If you speak with Telma instead of simply showing her Renaldo's Letter, but haven't triggered the cutscene inside Telma's Bar, you temporarily mess up part of the game's memory concerning Jovani's Bottle. I haven't yet figured out why this happens, but saving and resetting fixes it. Take the following route from Telma's Bar (handing in Renaldo's Letter) to Doctor (handing in Invoice):
-- Hand in Renaldo's Letter {obtain Invoice, automatically equipped}
-- Save and reset {Link is now outside Castle Town, on the East bridge}
-- Roll through CT Center Square to Doctor
-- Hand in Invoice, resume route.
If you don't save and reset, what will happen is Jovani will have his CS where he regains some movement, then will ask you to obtain the remaining poes. The middle part of the event (where Jovani gives you the bottle) is skipped over, rendering the bottle Lost Forever (and your run is dead as a result). Even going back after obtaining all the poes will not get the Bottle, only the infinite rupees.

A full list of various tidbits is posted here: http://pastebin.com/ezxWn2eC (same link as above)


All that said, now for some time updates:

PB: 9:04:38.81
SoB: 8:42:37.75

Last run I did, was on 8:53 pace exiting Temple of Time. Ended up finishing with 9:04:59.98 after dropping nearly twelve minutes in the final three hours, including SEVEN minutes in City in the Sky (sum of Double Clawshots and City in the Sky splits).

The first six hours had a couple nice highlights, though:
14:56 Ordon Village (first time I've hit sub-15 minute Ordon Village)
A pair of nice snowboardings: 1:09.19 vs Yeto, followed up with a 1:09.29 vs Yeta (and I was playing it safer in this one).
« Last Edit: January 27, 2016, 06:23:40 PM by Habreno »

Offline Habreno

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  • Posts: 49
Re: Glitchless
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2016, 06:31:28 PM »
Finally. Sub-9. By a nice bit, too. 8:54:24.27

After three runs at 9:04:xx.xx, and another six fails, we finally crack the 9 hour mark. Ended up PBing by just over 10 minutes. SoB down to 8:40:21.57.

Had several great splits in the beginning, and never really dropped much time through the entire run. Some of the beginning times were 14:52 completing Ordon Village and 56:41 exiting Forest Temple (sub-57 Forest Temple is not something I expected for *quite* some time)- in fact we didn't hit the 1 hour mark until after we entered the Eldin Twilight.

*cries* Finally.