Author Topic: Super Jumping (Big Ups)  (Read 44041 times)

Offline LoenP

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Re: Super Jumping (Big Ups)
« Reply #120 on: April 07, 2015, 03:06:30 PM »
So I want to reiterate that this is about rule definition and clarification and not about changing the rules of main category (again) since I have heard from a few people now watching this conversation that they are concerned about doing runs because the rules might be reverted back or continually changed.

On that note, the current way of explaining the ruleset is very lacking. From the rules popup:
Quote
Beat the game with the "No Wrong Warp" and "No Out of Bounds" rulesets in effect.

Saving and quitting to reset Link's position (savewarping) is banned, as is intentionally dying to reset Link's position (deathwarping). Dying to the shop keeper when stealing items is allowed, however.

"No WW" means no Wrong Warping using any glitch that sends link to unintended map tiles. This includes the Dog House Glitch, the Eagle Tower wrong warp in the mini-boss room, and others.

"No OoB" means no out of bounds glitches that allow link to unnaturally bypass normal screen transition boundaries by clipping through solid objects (this does not include wall clipping).


So as of right now, what falls under the umbrella of "Wrong Warp"

- Dog House Glitch
- Inter-dungeon warps (D7, Fisherman land, etc)

and "Out of Bounds"

- a lot of things as this definition is very, very problematic. Super Jumps fall into a very ambiguous territory, and this limited explanation fails to handle No Clip/Super Swims entirely.

I really like Fried Potato's system of defining and explaining them. Obviously there is no way to future proof and make ruleset definitions scalable with any and all tech found in the future however I feel that it does a much better job and is much more likely to be able to seamlessly accommodate new tech and be less open to interpretation and debate than the previous one, so I propose making this the new formal way of breaking down and defining the rulesets and tiers of glitches (AGAIN: this is just for defining purposes and not representative of an actual change to current existing categories that hasn't already happened):

Note: This only applies to DX

Universally banned: Up/Down and Left/Right dpad input glitch
Dog House Glitch: Using the Dog House to enter warped world
Warps: Using methods that let you transport from one dungeon or cave network to another that are not intended to be connected, otherwise known as the "Tompa Ruleset." This allows the D7 -> D8 warp in the dungeon 7 miniboss room, and super jumping on top of cave or dungeon ceilings to transition from one network to another, among others.  (Dren's No Clipping glitch may be appropriately placed here?)

This might not fit the ruleset perfectly but here is an example of what I imagine this category would look like: http://www.twitch.tv/rapid_f/c/5060519

Out of Bounds: This allows for you to walk through objects and transition through screens that normally wouldn't be possible, with the limitation being that you may not transition between dungeons or cave networks that are not intended to be connected. Super Jumping onto cave ceilings and onto walls and then screen transitioning through them are allowed, provided you keep your overall location in the dungeon or cave network.

Examples of things allowed:
All of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94OlfZkRp4k

Unfortunately because of how vaguely OoB has been defined in the past I was unable to find an appropriate video that might serve as a rough demonstration for how the category may look.

Not Out of Bounds: I just want to reiterate this. Doing Super Jumps is not out of bounds. Doing a Super Jump onto a cliff (not a ceiling but super jumping up a cliff like in the current Dungeon 6 route or in Ocarina Shrine!) is not out of bounds. Walrus Skip is not out of bounds. Jumping onto the ceiling of a dungeon or cave network is out of bounds. For a better idea if you're confused on this, go a few pages back and consult Seabass and Aullos' images for reference.

This leaves Save and Quit which is it's own thing and more of a 'filter' to be applied (or not) to categories, however looks to only have a place in the current main category and the upcoming proposed legacy category.

I've spent 20 minutes typing this post and I know there was something I wanted to close it with however I'm very tired and can't recall what that was. Fried Potato deserves any and all credit for this as all of what I'm saying here is just me reiterating his earlier post, however I feel this proposed system is a much, much, much better, consistent, and logical way of conveying the tiers of glitches and rulesets in LADX. Please let me know what you think :)


Again: this isn't to change category rules. This is just a more organized and concise way of explaining and defining them.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2015, 03:17:09 PM by LoenP »

mabdulra

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Re: Super Jumping (Big Ups)
« Reply #121 on: April 07, 2015, 03:25:34 PM »
I'd like to clarify on what counts as a "dungeon/cave/house network" since it will affect OOB.

LA is broken into three base maps. LADX is in four. When you enter a dungeon, the game rearranges the base maps on demand to be put in the order of that dungeon or location. I will refer to these as sub-maps, and I have a list of them on ZSR: http://www.zeldaspeedruns.com/la/doghouse/in-game-maps

Even if you enter the post-processed dungeon, you can still escape its bounds and enter another dungeon, so long as that dungeon is on the same base map. This allows travel between dungeons 1-6 and dungeons 7-9. Color Dungeon is very unique, I'll address that later. Note that Kanalet Castle is NOT a product of processing and is in its final configuration in its base map (Underworld 2)

Let's say SJ between screen transitions is allowed, which I believe it should be. What if you screen transition to one of the empty dungeon rooms as a result of processing? You are still technically within the dungeon network, but you're not in a room that you could "naturally" get to. In my sample Color Dungeon with SJ route, I was concious of staying within dungeon bounds. For Color Dungeon it's easy because EVERYTHING on that base map is in that network, but I still entered a technically unused "filler" room in that path. Does this constitute an OOB? Again, the question isn't on me using SJ to jump between screen transitions, it's on the location I ended up.

Video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=158A2_ClLao
Jump to 1:40 to see the SJ that takes me into a screen that is technically within the dungeon network, but never naturally accessible. The "filler" room for Color Dungeon is the boss room, for some reason. I don't know if this should be considered OOB or not.

Here's a No S+Q Turtle Rock: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvH8jr2fUIM
I never enter a "filler" room but I do SJ between screen transitions. I stay within the network, the dungeon. This in my opinion should not be considered OOB.

Sorry for being the IT guy and blabbing away about these things...

Offline friedpotato

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Re: Super Jumping (Big Ups)
« Reply #122 on: April 07, 2015, 05:14:22 PM »
Leon, I think that's a great summary!
Edit: I'd like to apologize for my liberal usage of the phrase "wrong warp." A wrong warp really has something to do with corrupted warp data/tiles or something. Like in doghouse... I don't know a lot about that... What I've always meant is what Leon said:
Quote
Warps: Using methods that let you transport from one dungeon or cave network to another that are not intended to be connected, otherwise known as the "Tompa Ruleset."
Sorry for any confusion.

Mab, going off of seabass's post, I think those jumps would be out of bounds because you are going through a screen transition from a "blue tile": http://forums.zeldaspeedruns.com/index.php?topic=1845.msg30353#msg30353

While perhaps arbitrary, I think emphasizing screen-transitions with respect to OoB is something most people seem to agree with.

At the same time, its hard for me to argue that what you did is OoB, while the superjumps in D6 are not OoB... Isn't the whole point of superjumping to get over walls, so why not allow the screen transitions? This idea is exactly why I wanted to keep all superjumps out of the main category and call them OoB. The current interpretation of the rules allows about half the things in the video Leon posted https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94OlfZkRp4k . I also just realized that the first superjump to get the firerod in D8 totally lands you on a "ceiling" that is inaccessible except by superjumping.....

I think it's going to boil down to what most people agree to allow (e.g. no screen transitions through walls), and the rest just have to follow those rules...


I think going through a filler room should be allowed but OoB because the submaps are boundaries defined by the game, not by us lowly humans. Though it only applies in D7-9 since the D1-6 filler rooms don't have exits. Also, I think "wrapping around the map" either up<->down or left<->right should be akin to WW and disallowed in OoB, but that hasn't been an issue yet.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2015, 04:27:21 AM by friedpotato »

mabdulra

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Re: Super Jumping (Big Ups)
« Reply #123 on: April 07, 2015, 08:17:33 PM »
Here's something I found like an hour ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-Mmf7X5KTQ

I don't know if this qualifies as OOB or not... I'm a little tired of having to think if something like this is OOB. The game doesn't distinguish between a "floor" or a "ceiling" it simply says "these tiles have this collision set" so I'm not sure if I like the current blue/red/yellow tileset discussion. I can understand wanting to not use SJ to bypass a screen transition, but I think if it's in its own screen then it should be allowed. That way you can go OOB en route to d4 so long as you stay in the cave, but you can't use that to get up the mountain really quickly. I did a slow preliminary run with a ruleset similar to this and it was more or less the same as what we have now, just with some more SJs in some places. I don't see the problem with it I guess...

Offline dresdun

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Re: Super Jumping (Big Ups)
« Reply #124 on: May 25, 2015, 06:49:47 AM »
looking at the current routes runners are using, most things in regard to the rule set seem pretty straight forward. the only gray area for me, i think, are some of the oob details. what i haven't really seen being made useful is bypassing certain obstacles with superjumps as shown in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94OlfZkRp4k my current understanding was the you can superjump through anywhere as long as any of the screen transitions involved were natural. by which i mean the next screen being transitioned to was in fact the next screen. also entering that screen as intended. i see leon saying everything in the above video is in accordance and friedpotato saying roughly half of it is not. i approach this from a completely neutral standpoint because i'm not bothered by any changes made or unmade. but yeah, i think there's a way to sum up what superjumps entail and what can/can't be done with them but i'm not seeing it here?
« Last Edit: May 25, 2015, 06:51:31 AM by dresdun »

Offline aulos

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Re: Super Jumping (Big Ups)
« Reply #125 on: June 03, 2015, 11:55:44 AM »
There is my vision about OoB, which can be an excessive term for this game but we still deal with it.

First, I think an OoB is be pretty much “stand or move being in a wall”.

Then, OoB should be allowed. What should not is screen transition while being OoB.
That means that you can go absolutely everywhere in a screen from the moment you don't screen transition.
Standing in a wall for no reason would have no point in a run then.

This image shows where you can go (everywhere), where you can screen transition, and where you can't.
Being there would be allowed, but there's no point standing there.
However, if you screen transition there, then the run would be invalid.

Also I went through Emuraloz's tricks and some others to illustrate what I'm saying and this video also explains why I disagree with Mabdulra.

About ceilings, I think they are a specific place where Link can naturally move if he reaches the place, but I think it should be forbidden to stand and to move on it.
Same for no clip/superswim.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2015, 11:57:32 AM by aulos »