Author Topic: Super Jumping (Big Ups)  (Read 44042 times)

Offline Flynn

  • Regular Guay
  • Posts: 29
Super Jumping (Big Ups)
« on: March 03, 2015, 05:27:21 PM »
So, lets talk about super jumping. First and foremost, I can't stand the name shaq jumping, not bashing whoever named this, just my personal opinion is all. So for the rest of this post I'll just refer to it super jumping for my own personal preference

For me this has always been an interesting topic. I just love the way it looks, so I'll be pretty transparent about how biased I am. My question to everybody is, is there anything inherently illegal about doing a super jump itself? Or does the legality lie in the application of the jump. I get if you were to use a jump to go super out of bounds and off the map (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_HRYR_pp8s) that this is obviously illegal. But if you were to do a super jump off a wall and land in the same room, would this still be considered illegal? To me I think not, although I could very well be wrong.

As far as super jump mechanics go, in my eyes all you're doing is abusing the games code to create a point to jump where you'd normally not be able to, much like rooster skip. You jump into a wall in a way that you hit the trigger to jump off a ledge without being on the right side of the ledge. And since you hit this trigger in the middle of a jump, the game thinks you're jumping off the ledge while jumping and fires you into the air in this crazy trajectory. So even though you're jumping from the ground, the game fires you in the same trajectory as a mid air ledge jump, hence the super jump-esq look.

Okay so at this point if you disagree with me and think super jumping by itself is a completely illegal move, which is totally fine, you can probably stop reading here. Otherwise I'll assume you're at least somewhat on board and start talking about potential in bounds uses for this trick. Being able to do a super jump to bypass obstacles could have a really interesting impact on the current route. In addition to some of Emuras more realistic (not obviously OoB) examples, myself and Zorlax found some rather interesting jumps (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kETxUMkBqII) that to me stay completely in bounds, and hence would be legal by our current ruleset.

I'd love to hear any feedback, positive or negative.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2015, 05:34:02 PM by Flynn »

Offline Drenn

  • Regular Guay
  • Posts: 53
Re: Super Jumping (Big Ups)
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2015, 06:04:16 PM »
I think most uses of super jumping would be considered oob, since usually you use it to jump over (clip through?) solid walls. The super jump itself wouldn't be illegal, though most applications would be. That said, I'm intrigued by the idea of a category which would allow some of the applications of the super jump.

Offline LoenP

  • Regular Guay
  • Posts: 35
Re: Super Jumping (Big Ups)
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2015, 06:13:27 PM »
1. Yeah, Shaq Jumping has always felt like a casual reference name for a trick that's yet to have a formal name made.

2. I'd love to see this in any of the runs, whether the currently existing categories or a new one to be made if it's decided to be OoB

always been super intrigued by this specific trick as it's not used in any runs currently which feels like a waste of a really cool trick

Offline ZorlaxSeven

  • Deku Scrub
  • Posts: 18
Re: Super Jumping (Big Ups)
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2015, 01:48:40 AM »
In addition to some of Emuras more realistic (not obviously OoB) examples, myself and Zorlax found some rather interesting jumps

Flynn found like.. all of those.


HOWEVER, I think I found the most important use of the Super Jump:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSzx_OlwYps

Offline oseabass

  • Regular Guay
  • Posts: 25
Re: Super Jumping (Big Ups)
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2015, 12:14:27 PM »
I think these should be allowed.  I for one think that Shaq Jumping is only really OOB when the destination you are getting to is technically not in the boundary which the game intends.  In all of these cases, you are allowed to walk in EVERY one of those places.  For some, you are jumping over very small barriers that look to be about the same as wall clip sizes.

In most cases these jumps are used to go onto ceilings or wall tiles that allow scrolling of the screen and traversing dungeons/caves in different then intended order.  I think with the ones that keep you within the same screen and bypass certain clippable objects... seems fine to me.  If you watch the jump it never looks like Link goes out of bounds at all, there is no sticking, etc.  We abuse the hookshot for its special ability of 1 frame of "ground"... in theory when we haven't fallen using the hookshot we are standing on ground that doesn't even exist.  All of these cases look to be standing and jumping to places that are easily walkable in normal gameplay.

I think an OOB jump is more based on the intention and the destination, rather then the jump itself.  I think I'll defer to how Tompa is categorizing stuff for the TAS and how those OOBs are being handled.
-Bass

Offline aulos

  • Regular Guay
  • Posts: 34
  • Diddle-Y-A-Doo-Dat
Re: Super Jumping (Big Ups)
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2015, 12:17:26 PM »
I think most uses of super jumping would be considered oob, since usually you use it to jump over (clip through?) solid walls.
I might be wrong but Villa skip looks a lot like those jumps, you're just jumping over solid objects... Should we allow Super Jumping? Forbid Villa Skip? But I agree with you, Flynn, some of the jumps you showed are definitely not OoBs (Dodongos skip) and I don't see any reason to ban them but the fact of scaring new people.

Also these jumps seem like they could be done everywhere in the game (too much?) or can you only do them in underworlds ?

« Last Edit: March 04, 2015, 12:19:18 PM by aulos »

mabdulra

  • Guest
Re: Super Jumping (Big Ups)
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2015, 04:17:37 PM »
Villa Skip's mechanics are the same as jumping from cliffs on Toronbo Shores as you go to the sword. If I recall, the game sets this byte to 0x01 during these conditions: $C10A That address I pulled from my memory so it might not actually be correct, but if it is then you should see it switch from 0x00 to 0x01 during the jumps. This is what lets you walk through objects that are otherwise solid. If you were to freeze the value of that address to 0x01 (or anything non-zero iirc) then you will just walk through walls and collision data (I forget where the address is, but it gets corrupted by Doghouse which is why I know it exists) means nothing for the tiles. You can still take damage though and I think some other effects apply, since you can still fall in holes.

I haven't checked, but my assumption is that for Super Jumping the mechanic is the same. The mechanic itself is not what we should argue about whether it is allowed in the current ruleset, since the mechanic is inherent in what we have deemed to be normal gameplay (Toronbo Shores), but instead we need to look at the application of this mechanic and what it is trying to accomplish. We already have an arbitrary definition of Out of Bounds that likely will remain arbitrary, but we have a new definition for Wrong Warp that was put forth by Tompa for his TAS work.

I think somebody needs to break the ice and do a full No Wrong Warp run featuring all the Super Jumps one can find and see how it feels. That or a "realistic" TAS where movement is human-like (no U+D/L+R) just so we can get a sense of what the route would be. I think nobody is able to come to a conclusion because nobody has seen it yet.

Offline Riddler

  • Regular Guay
  • Posts: 25
Re: Super Jumping (Big Ups)
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2015, 04:36:11 PM »
I feel like the majority of the super jumps shown on video are in bounds, at least by the definition of "not clipping further into an object than a wall clip can". My say is that this trick is only oob if you use it as one, For example jumping onto a ceiling and going into a different dungeon from there. Of course Seeing a "No Wrong Warp" run would help solidify the legitimacy of this trick being in bounds. But as far as I am concerned, if you aren't jumping on ceilings or clipping INTO something, (not through/past) then this trick should be allowed in No OOB gameplay. but of course that's only my opinion. :)

Offline SurrealGuy

  • Deku Scrub
  • Posts: 13
Re: Super Jumping (Big Ups)
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2015, 04:40:40 AM »
I really like those jumps, that could make a really interesting run. I think Ill try to route a AllInstruments NoWW run this evening. Dont know if Ill stream though, because i had some big lag issues with that lately.
 Im thinking to also include things like D5/D6 Boss Key skip (walking over screen boundaries with shaq jump). Because I dont think its worth it to make a new category just for non OoB shaq jumps (we could include them in the main category though), because they just make some dungeons a bit faster and dont break the game too much.

D5 boss key skip allows to beat D5 before D4 (with jesus walking, Emuraloz has a Video of that), wich would allow to beat D4 in one sitting brcause the ghost wont appear then (?).
Edit: dont know if we can exit D5 with jesus jumps though, D4 in two parts might better/faster and also less tedious than some tricky jesuswalks

EDIT2: No more Brrr-Text in D8!! Found a way to clip into the bottom wall below the boss room (lava jesus walk) and super jump to the boss door from there. http://www.twitch.tv/surrealguy/c/6258878 (happens at around 3:20)
(Save&Quit after FireRod and get Nightmare Key the normal way is much likely faster (thanks Flynn))


EDIT3: Okay, did some testing and timing today and ill write down the current route for D8 (wanted to stream and do a quick tutorial/guide, but stream lagged like hell again). Anyways here's the route.
- Enter D8 (Boots+ Ocarina), dash up, equip Feather and sword in the room above the entrance during the dash.
- Push the moving platform straight up and do a superjump above the blocks in the room, where youd normally do the sideways block push (the sideways block push strat takes roughly the same amount of time if you get the block push really quick and do the dashjump; the superjump strat is much more consistent in terms of speed imo), BA the north wall, then the left wall
- Arrow the statue, get key and get the key in the room left off of that
- go back into the dark room, kill the 2 snakes and the peahat (you have to wait a peahat cycle, theres no way around that), go right and superjump to the key block (you can also superjump with shooting an arrow (much like the superjump in D7 with the firerod) so that could possibly save an equip)
- do the 2D section and do two superjumps to the firerod and S&Q (S&Qing is roughly 10secs faster than walking to the Nightmare Key)
- equip Feather + FireRod and get Nightmares Key the normal way
- Now, don't S&Q, walk down, right, right and do a diagonal jump into the lava in the bottom-right corner in the room with the vire and the 2 snakes, pause buffer to jesuswalk (equip firerod + feather during pause buffering)
- now youre wallclipped in the room below the bossroom and able to superjump (with the firerod) to the bossdoor (your y-axis doesnt matter too much when you jesus walk, as long as youre not too far up, you'll always be wallclipped, also buffer the jump button (no directional input) during screen transition to not fall in the lava)

If you dont like this jump and you feel really comfortable with getting Brr-less, you can also get to the bossdoor the "normal way", however this trick should be at least 5secs faster, if you do it fast and correctly. Also another thing to note: you can get the arrows in the room below the boss if you need them; also makes the respawn faster if you fall in the lava. Ill try to make a good video of this dungeon in the next days.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2015, 01:16:51 PM by SurrealGuy »

Offline Rapid_

  • Regular Guay
  • Posts: 22
Re: Super Jumping (Big Ups)
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2015, 04:57:26 PM »
I really like those jumps, that could make a really interesting run. I think Ill try to route a AllInstruments NoWW run this evening. ...

I've routed this category prior to the new super jump method: http://pastebin.com/SUdcs0hR; as well as recorded a run: http://www.twitch.tv/rapid_f/c/5367529. Keep in mind: routing this category will be hard because you can OoB to lv2+lv3+lv4+lv5 from lv1 (this is done in the room below the feather chest room). Likewise, you can probably get to lv6+lv7+lv8+egg(?) from lv6 but I don't know what room this could possibly be achieved (and haven't checked).

Offline Ulquiorra

  • Deku Scrub
  • Posts: 14
Re: Super Jumping (Big Ups)
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2015, 07:00:53 AM »
I agree with Riddler's post, I think it should be allowed in No Sqwwoob as long as the jumps are in bounds. But still, I love the category like it is now, not gonna lie.

Offline aulos

  • Regular Guay
  • Posts: 34
  • Diddle-Y-A-Doo-Dat
Re: Super Jumping (Big Ups)
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2015, 07:32:30 AM »
But still, I love the category like it is now, not gonna lie.

Even if a lot of people love a category as it is set, I don't think it is a good reason to prevent the speedrun of a game to evolve.

Offline SurrealGuy

  • Deku Scrub
  • Posts: 13
Re: Super Jumping (Big Ups)
« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2015, 10:04:11 AM »
We should decide, what is considered an OoB.
Is just jumping over a solid block (f.e. like the superjump in D7 in the 4th Pillar room) considered inbounds just because you land on a piece of ground you are able (and intended) to walk on? What about walking on ceilings (f.e. the old walrus skip method)? The game doesn't intend that you walk on there, but those are tiles that you can walk on (traveling to another screen/cave from there would be considered a WW imo).
Then there are superjumps which make you stand on cliffs (or other solid objects) ( f.e http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqZC3yZJPkQ ). If we consider standing on a bush (when falling in a hole in the villa maze) an OoB, then this third instance of superjumps is clearly an OoB too.
(And what about walrus skip then? :-X)

I'd love to see this category evolve, as much as i like the current route. I still consider creating a glitchless route (maybe like any% before villa skip was found?)

Offline Drenn

  • Regular Guay
  • Posts: 53
Re: Super Jumping (Big Ups)
« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2015, 11:29:26 AM »
Seems like every time something new is found, we need to decide whether it's OoB or not. We have different opinions on this because OoB still isn't clearly defined... I'm liking the term less and less.

If we want to stick strictly with "not allowed to clip more than 3 pixels into a solid object", I guess you can argue that you can jump over a solid wall and land past it without being in the state of being clipped into it. But to me this seems... kinda dumb. It seems like if you tried to do the jump in the dream shrine, you'd land more than 3 pixels into the wall. That seems like it'd be a silly reason to disallow that jump in particular. Or, as I suggested earlier, we could say that jumping over walls counts as clipping through them, so, disallowed.

Honestly, the fact that this is open to interpretation at all bugs me.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2015, 11:30:59 AM by Drenn »

Offline Disclude

  • Deku Scrub
  • Posts: 14
Re: Super Jumping (Big Ups)
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2015, 07:55:16 PM »
So, I love these super jumps. I think they should definitely be added to the run, and almost all of those in that video are fine. The only one I have issues with is the one in d8 to get the firerod. I feel like you need to hit the crystal switch to lower those blocks, otherwise in my opinion you're OoB. Even though you CAN stand on those TYPES of blocks normally if you're near a crystal switch, there is NO other way to stand on THOSE specific ones while they're up unless you do this glitch. To me, that alone makes it OoB. If you hit the crystal switch, it'd be a nice way to skip Blaino still though, so that would be a fine use of it.

To me, OoB is clear as day. It's standing INSIDE a space on the screen that you can't normally stand in without doing that certain glitch(This doesn't include wall clipping as wall clipping is just a by product of walking, but does include being pushed into blocks or walls, etc.). Jumping over, of falling over top of it is fine, because you are not standing on that spot, or walking through that spot. 

Offline LoenP

  • Regular Guay
  • Posts: 35
Re: Super Jumping (Big Ups)
« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2015, 05:29:09 AM »
I agree with Drenn, we have to have a concrete definition and examples of what is and isn't an out of bounds manoeuvre before continuing with rule discussion, in my opinion.

Clearly a wall clip (achieved by moving 3 pixels into a solid tile's outer edge) isn't an OoB.

I think we've all agreed when it was brought up again that the Richard Skip sequence isn't either, as by the game's logic you're simply jumping over a cliff and not actually clipping into or through objects. In that case, isn't the core principle of how Super Jumps work the same in this regard?

How about the clip into Turtle Rock?


How do we want to define OoB? Would (should) the current super jumps be considered OoB? I know there has been a lot of interest in Tompa's definition (and personally I like it a lot) of OoB being any manoeuvre that let's you travel from dungeons or cave systems that aren't meant to be connected (no going from d4->5, or going from tal tal heights cave right below Rooster Skip to the one above it, for example). This would keep much of the current main category the same, only changing strats and movements on a segmented basis, but not altering the route as a whole.

Maybe could open some interest in a no major glitches category or something similar, too :D  (would own to do Kamelot Castle again)

EDIT: There's also the potential of using Tompa's ruleset to differentiate two tiers or layers of 'oob' (pending a better name). The distinction being whether the trick transitions you to a dungeon or cave network that isn't supposed to be connected.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2015, 09:28:37 AM by LoenP »

Offline Drenn

  • Regular Guay
  • Posts: 53
Re: Super Jumping (Big Ups)
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2015, 11:00:08 AM »
The super jumping mechanics aren't quite the same as how villa skip works, though it's similar in that you're kind of... falling past the wall in question. Due to the nature of the super jump, though, there's no reason you can't land directly inside of a solid wall. In fact, a lot of the applications of the super jump work this way. In a lot of the applications in emura's video he screen transitions immediately afterwards, but still, I find it hard to justify being inside of a solid wall in a "no oob" category. At least, you are clipped more than 3 pixels into a wall in these cases.

I think the turtle rock clip is okay, because the turtle's hitbox doesn't actually extend upwards. It's the same as wall clipping past the flowers in goponga.

Btw, tompa didn't use the term OoB at all, he just called it wrong warping. As for how to define OoB, I still haven't seen a half-decent definition outside of "not allowed to clip more than 3 pixels into a wall". :P

Edit: looking over emura's video...
- d4 boss key, you land inside of a solid wall then screen transition down, triggering a falling state like in villa skip. It's the part where he lands in a solid wall which I find iffy.
- d5 boss key skip, you land inside of a solid wall, then screen transition
- d6 skips, in the first one you just land on a raised platform so probably okay... in the second, third and fourth ones, again, you land inside a solid wall

As cool as these are, I feel like you'd need a weird definition of OoB to accomodate for them. But correct me if I'm wrong. :P
« Last Edit: March 17, 2015, 11:07:15 AM by Drenn »

Offline Disclude

  • Deku Scrub
  • Posts: 14
Re: Super Jumping (Big Ups)
« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2015, 11:33:13 AM »
After trying a few of these out, the on in Ocarina Shrine, and D6 wouldn't be valid to me, as you land inside the wall, even though you can walk out, it is a WALL, and therefore I would find that out of bounds sadly, on top of my earlier thoughts on the one in D8 with the blocks still up from the crystal switch.

Going with your thoughts on that video drenn, the first one in d6 I would say is OoB as well, since there's no possible way to get on top of those raise platforms without this trick. No crystal switch around, and no way to fall on top of them through a pit else where in the dungeon.

There are still a few cool useful ones from Flynns video, like the D3 Dodongo skip, Getting the D8 boss key quickly, and skipping blaino(as long as you've lowered the blocks with the crystal switch) and the one that will let you skip the hookshot jump in D7. They all seem to land in clips, or sometimes not even clipped.

But yea, for out of bounds, to me it's still, not being inside of a wall, or space more than a 3 pixel clip  that you can't get in without a glitch or trick.

Offline Drenn

  • Regular Guay
  • Posts: 53
Re: Super Jumping (Big Ups)
« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2015, 12:13:42 PM »
Okay so we may have been talking about slightly different things, the applications in flynn's video mostly don't land inside solid walls. Though it still seems iffy in some cases, like for the jump in d3, it could be easy to land more than 3 pixels into the left wall without realizing it. Like with the dream shrine, this just feels like a weird situation. This was kinda the reason why my first thought was to say, doing these shaq jumps over walls counts as oob. But I think this can work even if it's a bit weird, and it seems like most people are in favor of this. Still, I dunno how we should deal with these cases.

I disagree about the raised platforms though, I don't think it makes a difference whether or not you're supposed to be able to get up there - it's walkable terrain.

Offline Disclude

  • Deku Scrub
  • Posts: 14
Re: Super Jumping (Big Ups)
« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2015, 01:03:43 PM »
I disagree about the raised platforms though, I don't think it makes a difference whether or not you're supposed to be able to get up there - it's walkable terrain.

Yes, but when you're inside of a wall, you can "walk" out of it, therefore it is walkable terrain, so again, I have to disagree. You have more movement on top of it, but you can still walk while inside some walls that you get pushed inside or whatever. There's no way to get up there without this trick, so using that logic, this would also make the original "Shaq jump" to skip walrus allowable, because that ceiling is walkable, and you're not even going inside a wall, just doing a super jump up to it, so I don't like that mind set for any definition towards this rule set.

Offline Drenn

  • Regular Guay
  • Posts: 53
Re: Super Jumping (Big Ups)
« Reply #20 on: March 17, 2015, 01:43:46 PM »
Yes, but when you're inside of a wall, you can "walk" out of it, therefore it is walkable terrain, so again, I have to disagree. You have more movement on top of it, but you can still walk while inside some walls that you get pushed inside or whatever. There's no way to get up there without this trick, so using that logic, this would also make the original "Shaq jump" to skip walrus allowable, because that ceiling is walkable, and you're not even going inside a wall, just doing a super jump up to it, so I don't like that mind set for any definition towards this rule set.
Walls aren't walkable terrain, it's just that if you're clipped into them, you have a bit of leeway to move towards walkable terrain. On top of the platforms, you have a full range of movement, so it's walkable terrain. That's how I see it anyway.

Interesting point here: would the shaq jump to reach dungeon 4 faster be allowed? I wasn't thinking of it in the same terms as you seem to be. The ceiling is walkable terrain, but then doing a screen transition to do the other method of walrus skip can fall into the domain of "wrong warp". However I can also see the argument that the ceiling of the cave is out of bounds, in fact I think that's how it's been considered so far. Only thing is, it's not an exact perfect fit with the "clipping 3 pixels into a wall" definition which I think makes the most sense :P

So I guess an alternative is something like "not allowed to stand on a tile which can't be reached without the use of glitches" as you suggested...
« Last Edit: March 17, 2015, 01:58:04 PM by Drenn »

Offline Disclude

  • Deku Scrub
  • Posts: 14
Re: Super Jumping (Big Ups)
« Reply #21 on: March 17, 2015, 03:52:29 PM »
Yea, I feel like that ceiling is out of bounds. This is why I like the idea of out of bounds being you 'can't walk on any area that you can't normally walk on without the trick that's required to get there'; excluding the 3 pixel clip. This covers being in wall, going in the ceiling, going more than 3 pixels inside of a wall.

Offline SurrealGuy

  • Deku Scrub
  • Posts: 13
Re: Super Jumping (Big Ups)
« Reply #22 on: March 18, 2015, 01:32:31 AM »
Walking on ceiling could count to OoB. But technically it is exactly the same as the superjump in Dream shrine or the early Big Key in D6. So I dont know how we should decide this. We should check what uses walking on ceiling has without screen transitioning from there (thatd most likely be a Wrong Warp).( Of course we can argue that the game didnt intend us to walk on a ceiling)

Does anyone know how the japanese community deals with superjumps and the OoB issue?

Offline Rapid_

  • Regular Guay
  • Posts: 22
Re: Super Jumping (Big Ups)
« Reply #23 on: March 18, 2015, 02:52:15 AM »
Does anyone know how the japanese community deals with superjumps and the OoB issue?
I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure they ban version specific tricks and this trick is 1.0 only I believe?
EDIT: here she is: http://forums.zeldaspeedruns.com/index.php?topic=1804.msg29565#msg29565
« Last Edit: March 18, 2015, 02:55:31 AM by Rapid_ »

Offline Drenn

  • Regular Guay
  • Posts: 53
Re: Super Jumping (Big Ups)
« Reply #24 on: March 18, 2015, 06:00:34 PM »
I took a glance at the thread where the last rule change occured, and saw this:
Quote
any% warpless is now rebranded as any% no oob.. For both games, this includes all the existing rules for warpless, as well as the following: "you may not clip through or jump over solid walls".

Certainly seems like super jumping would be covered by that, but then again, we do seem to be on the verge of a ruleset change. Also this definitely was not expressed in the rules on the leaderboards... everywhere you look, oob has a different definition :P

I still, personally, feel like the super jump shouldn't be an allowed technique in the main category, but I don't care terribly much because I'm more interested in an OoB category which will probably exist soon. So if people want to allow these tricks in the main category, let's try to formalize this.



No Wrong Warping:
- Do not use glitches which manipulate screen transitions such that link spawns in the wrong destination.
- Do not transition directly between any 2 dungeons or cave systems that should not be connected on the map. (This may be redundant for the main category, but I'm trying to set up for a plain old "no wrong warp" category as well.)

- Glitches banned by this: screenwarping in LA, doghouse glitch, fisherman glitch, miniboss warps (such as d7 -> d8), going from one cave system to another.
- Maybe we can replace the first point just by a list of glitches which are banned, instead of using messy words. :P

No Out of Bounds:
- Link may not stand inside of a tile which cannot be reached without the use of glitches. In the case of wall tiles, this means that he may not be clipped more than 3 pixels into the tile in question (so wall clipping is allowed).

If we were to ban super jumping, that definition might instead look something like:
- Link may not jump over solid objects, or clip into them by more than 3 pixels.

^ This is going with the approach of banning any kind of movement through solid walls. So, there should be no way to reach other tiles which might be considered oob, such as the ceilings in caves. Villa skip is still weird in this case, but we can still argue that it's just using the falling down from a cliff mechanic, which naturally can't be banned...



Okay so that's my attempt at formalizing the rules in a way which could allow super jumping (and allows for a new "no WW" category). Lemme know how you feel about this, if it's completely wrong or if it just needs some rewording. I think we all want to sort this out as soon as we can.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2015, 06:04:07 PM by Drenn »

Offline Rapid_

  • Regular Guay
  • Posts: 22
Re: Super Jumping (Big Ups)
« Reply #25 on: March 18, 2015, 11:34:12 PM »
No Wrong Warping:
- Do not use glitches which manipulate screen transitions such that link spawns in the wrong destination.
- Do not transition directly between any 2 dungeons or cave systems that should not be connected on the map. (This may be redundant for the main category, but I'm trying to set up for a plain old "no wrong warp" category as well.)

- Glitches banned by this: screenwarping in LA, doghouse glitch, fisherman glitch, miniboss warps (such as d7 -> d8), going from one cave system to another.
- Maybe we can replace the first point just by a list of glitches which are banned, instead of using messy words. :P

No Out of Bounds:
- Link may not stand inside of a tile which cannot be reached without the use of glitches. In the case of wall tiles, this means that he may not be clipped more than 3 pixels into the tile in question (so wall clipping is allowed).

If we were to ban super jumping, that definition might instead look something like:
- Link may not jump over solid objects, or clip into them by more than 3 pixels.

^ This is going with the approach of banning any kind of movement through solid walls. So, there should be no way to reach other tiles which might be considered oob, such as the ceilings in caves. Villa skip is still weird in this case, but we can still argue that it's just using the falling down from a cliff mechanic, which naturally can't be banned...

I don't really agree with this rule set, it ruins the no ww run that we have currently and seems to disregard that the transitioning from one dungeon to another via oob is both interesting and has actual uses. To fix this we might as well make doghouse its own separate thing entirely so there can be a run that doesn't use doghouse but oob and ww(your definition) to beat the game.

Also, to be honest this sort of thing wouldn't be an issue if everybody ran on console because there would be the poor sap that says "oh man guys, I have 1.1 and I can't do these things :( ." In fact, why not just have categories that are bound to the game's versions rather than a "universal" ruleset? Or(if you don't like that) run all instruments no ww(current ruleset) and stop this madness of redefining something that will have to be(or considered to be) changed when something new is found(as that seems to be happening lately).

Offline LoenP

  • Regular Guay
  • Posts: 35
Re: Super Jumping (Big Ups)
« Reply #26 on: March 19, 2015, 07:21:29 AM »
I like your summary and way of defining the different stuff, Drenn. The one thing I can think of being an issue in the future is possibly splitting up, by definition, a super jump that isn't OoB and one that is. As I could see people in the future possibly wanting to try runs out that allowed for all super jumps, but disallowing what we refer to as Wrong Warps.

Offline LoenP

  • Regular Guay
  • Posts: 35
Re: Super Jumping (Big Ups)
« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2015, 03:14:44 PM »
Made some vids of DX

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORD4rUIRxeQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dr5x0bAH0XU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQ087-GuCIQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHmTHsnzA9k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGC1q2Q-beE

The main one under contention is the d6 one that it may have you landing inside the border of the platform and thus constitute an OoB.

Offline Disclude

  • Deku Scrub
  • Posts: 14
Re: Super Jumping (Big Ups)
« Reply #28 on: March 19, 2015, 03:43:35 PM »
I really like the idea of making a different between the super jumps as WW/No WW...instead of labeling them out of bound because there are ones that land you barley inside the wall, but should probably be in a run, like the D6 one, and the Ocarina Shrine one...More so have WW's be doing an unintended transition, and transitions not done through door ways, so those game breaking Super Jumps that just go through walls to transition to another screen wouldn't be allowed, but ones that just bypass obstacles or whatever on that screen are fine.

So I guess Drenn's definition of No Wrong Warping is really what I'd want. Though I dunno if that includes not allowing the game breaking ones where you can used super jumps to walk through walls to screen transition, cause they really destroy some of the dungeons. The ones in Leon's videos all seem like ones I would want in the run.

Offline Drenn

  • Regular Guay
  • Posts: 53
Re: Super Jumping (Big Ups)
« Reply #29 on: March 19, 2015, 05:51:19 PM »
I don't really agree with this rule set, it ruins the no ww run that we have currently and seems to disregard that the transitioning from one dungeon to another via oob is both interesting and has actual uses. To fix this we might as well make doghouse its own separate thing entirely so there can be a run that doesn't use doghouse but oob and ww(your definition) to beat the game.
As for the old "no ww" category, I see no reason it can't be renamed to "no doghouse glitch". So yes, make doghouse its own thing. I mean it may be lumped into the "wrong warp" definition, but there's no reason we can't use it by itself for another category, I think.

Also, to be honest this sort of thing wouldn't be an issue if everybody ran on console because there would be the poor sap that says "oh man guys, I have 1.1 and I can't do these things :( ." In fact, why not just have categories that are bound to the game's versions rather than a "universal" ruleset? Or(if you don't like that) run all instruments no ww(current ruleset) and stop this madness of redefining something that will have to be(or considered to be) changed when something new is found(as that seems to be happening lately).
I'm not entirely sure what your point here is with version differences, typically the standard way to deal with that is just using the fastest version, even if one poor guy has v1.1...

As for OoB being constantly redefined, well, I certainly don't like the approach of leaving it as some kind of undefinable "thing" - as it seems to be at the moment. As for the current situation, if super jumping is to be allowed, some redefining and re-examination is necessary in order to separate those which result in "OoB" from those which do not. I don't really see any way around this, but that's not to say my attempted definition is the best solution.

I'd be happy enough, though, if we could ditch the term OoB entirely :P

I really like the idea of making a different between the super jumps as WW/No WW...instead of labeling them out of bound because there are ones that land you barley inside the wall, but should probably be in a run, like the D6 one, and the Ocarina Shrine one...More so have WW's be doing an unintended transition, and transitions not done through door ways, so those game breaking Super Jumps that just go through walls to transition to another screen wouldn't be allowed, but ones that just bypass obstacles or whatever on that screen are fine.

So I guess Drenn's definition of No Wrong Warping is really what I'd want. Though I dunno if that includes not allowing the game breaking ones where you can used super jumps to walk through walls to screen transition, cause they really destroy some of the dungeons. The ones in Leon's videos all seem like ones I would want in the run.
You mean, just plain old "no wrong warping", ignoring the oob part... I think those particular transitions would be allowed with that definition. But I think there's a lot we can do in terms of saying what kinds of screen transitions are allowed or not. We could try something like "not allowed to do a screen transition between any 2 spots that shouldn't be connected". However if we did that, villa skip would pretty much be gone... it would solve the problem of the more game-breaking super jumps though.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2015, 05:55:05 PM by Drenn »

Offline Disclude

  • Deku Scrub
  • Posts: 14
Re: Super Jumping (Big Ups)
« Reply #30 on: March 19, 2015, 07:57:25 PM »
"not allowed to do a screen transition between any 2 spots that shouldn't be connected". However if we did that, villa skip would pretty much be gone... it would solve the problem of the more game-breaking super jumps though.

That's along the lines that I was thinking. I came to the same realization for villa skip. I dunno if there's a way around that..the only thing I can think of it that it's not walking in a wall at all, which more so lends it self to the OoB rule...I'd love to find a way to do it without getting rid of villa skip, just so it doesn't screw over normal runs..Argh, run rule definitions are a pain @[email protected]

Offline aulos

  • Regular Guay
  • Posts: 34
  • Diddle-Y-A-Doo-Dat
Re: Super Jumping (Big Ups)
« Reply #31 on: March 20, 2015, 08:24:58 AM »
Okay so I'm going to try to define something new, I am sorry if my English is too poor for that kind of thing. Anyway:

What does (should) mean an Out of Bound in this game? Standing or walking on pixels we should not be able to reach within the intended restrictions of the game. This game allows us to walk in certain solid objects by three pixels or less, and this annoys us because of new tricks found, aka Walrus skip, Super Jumping. It even gives us troubles about the Villa Skip. Also, a lot of people want to change the term/principle of OoBs.

I might be completely wrong, but this, even if Link stands in a wall by more than three pixels let me think about something: should we really turn a run down because of this?

That's why I suggest to replace Out of Bounds by something like Out of Area (yeah I know it's pretty much the same word).

What would be the restrictions of an OoA then ? Well, that would allow every movement possibility within a room by only considering the very walls, but without being able to go to another screen through walls, and consequently by walking on ceilings.

That would for instance allow the D6 Nightmare Key Super Jump but disallow the one to the Boss room. Here is an example. Red tiles being tiles through which you cannot screen transition. Also this would mean no old Marin Skip and no old Frog Song skip.

As far as I thought about it, that would allow most of the Super Jumps Flynn showed in his video, but disallow others like the fast D4 Nightmare Key showed in Emura's video.

If I'm completely out of it, well, just tell me  :P Also if someone likes the idea, any help would be great to redefine it correctly!

Much love <3
« Last Edit: August 28, 2015, 01:19:05 PM by aulos »

Offline Drenn

  • Regular Guay
  • Posts: 53
Re: Super Jumping (Big Ups)
« Reply #32 on: March 20, 2015, 10:54:47 AM »
I do like that idea aullos. From the options presented so far I think that would work best for our purposes. I'm not entirely sure how to put this into words though, the image seems to describe the concept better. As I understand it, cave ceilings would be off-limits, which means we can't do the shaq jump to reach d4 faster?

Maybe something like "no out of area / out of bounds means you cannot clip past the outermost boundaries of any given room". I dunno, the image still describes the concept better.

The accompanying "no wrong warp" definition can be much the same as it is now - simply restricting doghouse, screenwarping, etc, without an additional restriction saying where you can or cannot screen transition.

Offline LoenP

  • Regular Guay
  • Posts: 35
Re: Super Jumping (Big Ups)
« Reply #33 on: March 20, 2015, 10:57:05 AM »
This isn't a rules post (I'll make one in a bit) but I think I noticed something that allows the Super Jump to work and may narrow down figuring out the reason for why and how this glitch is caused? The one thing I have noticed is that of the three items that you're able to utilize this with (Sword, Magic Rod, Bow) they have the common trait in allowing link to change the direction he's facing while in a jump, which is something that with any other item, or without using any item, is disallowed. Something about this may mess with the collision detection of the game when in dungeon areas? I know people were into looking into why this only occurs in dungeons and cave networks and not in the overworld, so maybe this will help?

I'm bad a hunting and solving glitch things so if this is a dumb observation let me know.

Here's where I explain and demonstrate idk if this will be useful to anyone - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRUSVsW6a1E&feature=youtu.be


Offline LoenP

  • Regular Guay
  • Posts: 35
Re: Super Jumping (Big Ups)
« Reply #34 on: March 20, 2015, 11:08:26 AM »
I really, really, really like Aullos' description and idea of OoB. Maybe add a caveat to better explain disallowing using OoB that let's you transition in to a screen from another that wasn't intended?

This is a really poor way to explain what I'm trying to describe, all I'm trying to say is I really like Aullos' definition.

EDIT: Anyway I was originally posting to say that I feel a more narrow definition of superjumps and where they lay might be deserved since I feel the trick is very, very versatile and needs to be defined in a way that isn't 'a super jump is a super jump.' The trick can be utilized to shave anywhere from over half an hour (the previous No WW category used by rapid and leafeonz) or likely around just a minute depending on the scope of your definition and usage and that a break up of different classes of definitions may be warranted here. That's just my thoughts, though.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2015, 11:18:51 AM by LoenP »

Offline Drenn

  • Regular Guay
  • Posts: 53
Re: Super Jumping (Big Ups)
« Reply #35 on: March 20, 2015, 11:26:08 AM »
This isn't a rules post (I'll make one in a bit) but I think I noticed something that allows the Super Jump to work and may narrow down figuring out the reason for why and how this glitch is caused? The one thing I have noticed is that of the three items that you're able to utilize this with (Sword, Magic Rod, Bow) they have the common trait in allowing link to change the direction he's facing while in a jump, which is something that with any other item, or without using any item, is disallowed. Something about this may mess with the collision detection of the game when in dungeon areas? I know people were into looking into why this only occurs in dungeons and cave networks and not in the overworld, so maybe this will help?

I'm bad a hunting and solving glitch things so if this is a dumb observation let me know.

Here's where I explain and demonstrate idk if this will be useful to anyone - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRUSVsW6a1E&feature=youtu.be


Does the super jump not work in overworld areas? If this is the case, I think the reason would just be because of the types of tiles the game uses. Super jumping works when you do it off of a tile which you can jump down from. The overworld does have some tiles like this, but they work differently. They trigger a different kind of falling state, a la villa skip. So this is probably why it doesn't work in the overworld...

Upon further examination, though, I've found a place where it works in the overworld. That cliff near dungeon 3. It's the same kind of tile as is used in underground sections. It's just not used very often in the overworld.

Offline aulos

  • Regular Guay
  • Posts: 34
  • Diddle-Y-A-Doo-Dat
Re: Super Jumping (Big Ups)
« Reply #36 on: March 20, 2015, 12:33:43 PM »
I have to say caves give me a bit of trouble. I do hesitate between this and this.

I guess my first thought was "can't walk on ceilings" since in my opinion those walls are the "outermost boundaries".

What do you think about it ?
« Last Edit: March 20, 2015, 12:35:37 PM by aulos »

Offline LoenP

  • Regular Guay
  • Posts: 35
Re: Super Jumping (Big Ups)
« Reply #37 on: March 20, 2015, 12:40:34 PM »
I'm completely fine with image 1 as running through my mind the cave systems in the game and ways the jump can be used I can't think of anything that would be an issue, since the main thing we have issues with would be using that super jump to transition while on top of the ceiling which you have covered. If it's being used merely as a way to bypass obstacles on that screen and then hop back down (without transitioning), I'm fine with it.

That's my take on it anyway, as I feel cave ceilings are a tricky area to decide on.

Offline Drenn

  • Regular Guay
  • Posts: 53
Re: Super Jumping (Big Ups)
« Reply #38 on: March 20, 2015, 12:44:18 PM »
I have to say caves give me a bit of trouble. I do hesitate between this and this.

I guess my first thought was "can't walk on ceilings" since in my opinion those walls are the "outermost boundaries".

What do you think about it ?
I think the second one makes more sense. I think the walls count as the outermost boundaries, even if they aren't very far out :) but then you don't have to use my wording. I understand that walking on cave ceilings may not be a big deal, as long as you don't transition afterwards, but the first image just feels like an arbitrary line to draw to me.

Offline aulos

  • Regular Guay
  • Posts: 34
  • Diddle-Y-A-Doo-Dat
Re: Super Jumping (Big Ups)
« Reply #39 on: March 20, 2015, 12:49:10 PM »
the first image just feels like an arbitrary line to draw to me.
I intended more to clarify the idea of "don't go to another screen by there" than "you can't walk on these very tiles".