Author Topic: Majora's Mask 3D: Speedrunning Discussion | Research & Discovery | Ask Questions  (Read 115692 times)

Offline gymnast86

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The thing is, pause buffering on a regular 3ds even with a digital copy and a class 10 SD card is extremely difficult and people who have played on both the regular 3ds and the New 3ds systems say that the New  3ds home buffering is a godsend compared to the home buffering on a regular 3ds. I myself have tried consecutive mask jumping for what i would estimate to be about and can very rarely do more than 2 consecutive mask jumps at a time. So I for one will not be doing this difficult trick during any of my runs unless an easier way that does not involve an insane amount of pause buffering. Also Deku Sword is cool :P

Offline reidenlightman

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The thing is, pause buffering on a regular 3ds even with a digital copy and a class 10 SD card is extremely difficult and people who have played on both the regular 3ds and the New 3ds systems say that the New  3ds home buffering is a godsend compared to the home buffering on a regular 3ds. I myself have tried consecutive mask jumping for what i would estimate to be about and can very rarely do more than 2 consecutive mask jumps at a time. So I for one will not be doing this difficult trick during any of my runs unless an easier way that does not involve an insane amount of pause buffering. Also Deku Sword is cool :P

I'm going to have to agree with every word of this. If someone really wants WR that badly, be my guest, but I really don't want to have to spend time grinding such a difficult trick. Plus, I've tried doing even just 2 in the same jump, but couldn't quite grasp how consecutive jumps work. The socalled video demonstrations really don't provide much in the way of explanation.
MM3D, sub 2:15 in only 5 runs. I really need a capture board.

Offline Madmonk12345

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Ugggh. Sorry guys. Had no idea it was gonna be a New 3DS exclusive. :(((((

The normal way has less buffering and would have been executed faster, but I was struggling for consistency with the trick and wanted to show that it was possible. I did it this way because I had assumed that home buffering was easy for everybody XP.

It's much easier now than it was though. It's been pointed out that you can press the inventory button during the buffers instead of beforehand, right when you press the mask button, making the trick substantially easier with only face button inputs out of buffers. You might want to take another stab at it now.

Fun fact: still haven't beaten MM, 3D or otherwise, just because I've been enjoying myself messing around with glitches. I've ruined the game for speedrunning and I haven't even finished it yet.

Offline Madmonk12345

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I'm going to have to agree with every word of this. If someone really wants WR that badly, be my guest, but I really don't want to have to spend time grinding such a difficult trick. Plus, I've tried doing even just 2 in the same jump, but couldn't quite grasp how consecutive jumps work. The socalled video demonstrations really don't provide much in the way of explanation.

Sorry to give a terrible explanation. :/ Feeling like an awful person today even though I should feel great given the find; I seem to just ruin everything. Half considering deleting the videos and having the community pretend this all never happened. Since no one seems to be able to do this trick anyways without my advice I could technically un-ruin this game if I wanted to.

Fun Fact: I wouldn't even have a New 3DS if I hadn't lost my 3DS on a plane flight last July, and likely would have never found this trick in that case. I'll just add this to the laundry list of things ruined by that.

I'll attempt a better explanation right now anyways
basically, the new strategy is this; it's substantially easier to perform.
with bottle on one non-screen button and a transformation mask on another:

1. press b + home at around the same time; I use thumb + middle  This part seems inconsistent; home doesn't seem to act the same way every time, and I need to do more research. My previous statements in the videos about timing aren't particularly accurate, even though I felt the were at the time. sorry. :(

I haven't been getting this very consistently either by the way. Sorry if the videos gave that impression. I just wanted to show that the trick worked and dispel rumors that more than two mask jumps was impossible.

2. return to the game after holding down where the mask inventory screen button would be with your left thumb and the mask button, pressing the home button quickly afterwards ensuring you only advance the game a single frame. ZL's fins should be out halfway at this point. If not, step 1 failed, either from your error or the system's.

What's ultimately going on here is that you are doing a mask jump manually using buffered inputs as Zora while holding down the inventory button on the right frame so that you can release them later. That's all, through all the specific buttons mentioned.

3. release everything on the next home buffer. The inventory screen pops up on just the right frame and you can swap out one mask for another item(which I choose to be another transformation mask because it makes the trick repeatable without pausing), negating the mask storage that locks you out of your buttons while still giving you the mask jump.
4. pull out a bottle, repeat from step 1. bottle causes issues because when you pull out a bottle there's three frames where you cannot perform any inputs at all. It's what makes this trick so difficult.

I'm sorry if this is explanation isn't at all helpful, but I have an exam to study for, so any further explanation is on delay for at least a couple of days. Oh well. Not like anyone wants this to work anyways.

Offline kronspik

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No need to apologize for finding a trick. This isn't the first time a new trick has forced people to buy new systems. OoT has had to deal with this for a while now.

It's possible that we will find another way to use gain distance into the loading zone, or an easier way to consecutive mask jump, or the cost of N3DS will drop. People are just salty.  :)

EDIT: Should N3DS be considered a different platform on the leaderboard if there would be N3DS exclusive tricks? I have no idea what the standard is for this.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2015, 04:55:07 AM by kronspik »

Offline Pedalpowertoast

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I was just about to say what kronspik was about to say, no need to blame yourself for anything, I give props to you for even bothering to test this trick at all, it's good for documentation purposes. And honestly I kind of expected some n3DS exclusive thing to be found, or something that makes it faster sooner or later.

I personally don't really give a shit if its faster or not, even if a run is done on poorer hardware, that doesn't mean it's going to be worse execution wise, by that I mean until someone manages to pull off this skip in a run (with or without n3DS which is just a matter of time) all the times are going to be equal, think of it as some sort of "TAS only" trick that saves a lot of time in some other game, but can't be pulled off. Basically you could unofficially "convert" times, which would give a rough estimate about what time you could've gotten with or without the trick, of course people aiming for WR wouldn't care about that.

It's no doubt that eventually it's going to become the thing that splits the runners, unless we find some other method like kronspik mentioned.

I know it can be demotivating to know this trick exists, but I haven't seen anyone buying a Japanese n3DS to gain advantage yet, so I wouldn't really care about it. It's no different from when people did runs of this game back when it came out, despite it being new and glitches took some time to find. Things like BA weren't used, but people still did runs.

So these are basically my thoughts about this atm, feel free to disagree with me. I probably forgot something, but ah well.

As for my thoughts about how to handle leaderboards, this I think is a bit of a tricky question, as technically n3DS does nothing more than let the game go to the 3DS home menu faster, which doesn't really mean it's faster from a gameplay perspective compared to say iQue with less lag or Wii VC due to emulation. If we're going to split it for that, might as well split by Digital and Cart copies and SD card Class speeds, which also affect home menu speeds... It's a really controversial subject, but hopefully it doesn't take long to come up with a resolution. The last thing I want is this games community to die due to this whole thing, it's better we discuss it now rather than later.

E: On second thought, before we start discussing this more, I think we should probably make a new topic, just to not abuse this one.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2015, 10:21:44 PM by Pedalpowertoast »
http://www.youtube.com/user/Pedalpowerluigi

Using a slow version on purpose is your choice, but you will get no sympathy or agreement from me.
Lol

Offline kronspik

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As for my thoughts about how to handle leaderboards, this I think is a bit of a tricky question, as technically n3DS does nothing more than let the game go to the 3DS home menu faster, which doesn't really mean it's faster from a gameplay perspective compared to say iQue with less lag or Wii VC due to emulation. If we're going to split it for that, might as well split by Digital and Cart copies and SD card Class speeds, which also affect home menu speeds... It's a really controversial subject, but hopefully it doesn't take long to come up with a resolution. The last thing I want is this games community to die due to this whole thing, it's better we discuss it now rather than later.

Actually from my understanding, the N3DS lets you consistently perform 1 frame buffers. So you can press Home, advance a single frame, and then press Home again. On other 3DS versions, this is really inconsistent and you will advance 1-3 frames instead. That's the difference between being able to properly execute 1 frame tricks or not. The issue was never about Home speed.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2015, 03:17:34 AM by kronspik »

Offline Madmonk12345

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Guess what I just found. (It involves saving you all the price of a New 3DS + Capturecard)

Turns out there's a way to reduce the trick from two buffers to one buffer that I hadn't thought was possible before due to the belief that releasing the inventory buttons prevented input to the game. It adds a frame perfect trick, but if people can do storage in TWW which doesn't have consistent timings like this trick should they can certainly do this, and it means no more relying on buffering which allows everybody with any 3DS to do this trick. I'm probably not going to do this if I ever do runs because it's pretty difficult as it is for me, but I'm sure people like Gymnast or SVA can handle it.

Step 1: press home and b at the exact same time, as if you were doing a mask jump without buffering. I've dome more testing and found this to be the case. The only reason I couldn't tell for sure is because the home button is ridiculously finicky for consistent input, and often pressing b later or earlier would seem to work, but I've determined that to have been a result of not giving the home button sufficient pressure or pressure on a location too far from the center of the button due to the button being concave instead of convex.

Step 2: hold down your deku or goron mask button(on either x or y) and your mask inventory button as the game returns from the home screen. at the very next frame after the game starts back up, let go of the mask inventory button. If you've done it too early you won't pause at all, too late and you won't be able to pull a bottle after the inventory closes because the menu will have popped up too late.

The inventory pops up, and the trick works as it normally does; swap out the deku mask for the goron mask or vice versa and continue with

3: press bottle then b + home simultaneously and repeat from step 2. My advice here is to once you've gotten this step working once or twice to find a rhythm for the button presses; It's what I do, and I'll try and demonstrate it in the video showing this off once I make it.

No video for a while. Got major assignments to do between now and then. Probably will be up on Wednesday presuming I don't end up doing it earlier out of my obsession with this crazy trick overriding my common sense.

Offline gabyelnuevo

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Nice! =)

Offline reidenlightman

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Yeah, I still can't even get it twice. And guess what. I'm using my new New 3DS for it. I can frame buffer 1 frame consistently with the home button. But I cant fucking do this. These explanations are way to convoluted. It really needs to be boiled down to what to do without all the explanation tied in. It makes it extremely hard to understand.

Consecutive mask jumps really aren't worth this frustration.

Edit: I've managed to get 3 in a row. Side note number 2: It took about 100 tires just to get the second mask jump to happen at all. It took 100 tries just to get Zora Link to pull out a goddamn bottle. Not to mention, I tried the clip, just to see if I could get OoB to setup where to do the Mask jumping... tried another 100 times to no avail.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2015, 01:01:35 PM by reidenlightman »
MM3D, sub 2:15 in only 5 runs. I really need a capture board.

Offline demolition14

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I found a way to go out of bounds to fake south CT from east CT. You have to get onto the straw roof using the deku flower and long jump onto the purple crown on the chest minigame place. You have to be Zora and you have to jumpslash onto the house. From there sidehop right 4 times and jumpslash 2 times. I would show an image, but I don't have anything to show it with :(
"I will marry Demo when he gets WR" - Iwabi74

Offline reidenlightman

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As for my thoughts about how to handle leaderboards, this I think is a bit of a tricky question, as technically n3DS does nothing more than let the game go to the 3DS home menu faster, which doesn't really mean it's faster from a gameplay perspective compared to say iQue with less lag or Wii VC due to emulation. If we're going to split it for that, might as well split by Digital and Cart copies and SD card Class speeds, which also affect home menu speeds... It's a really controversial subject, but hopefully it doesn't take long to come up with a resolution. The last thing I want is this games community to die due to this whole thing, it's better we discuss it now rather than later.

I really don't think a debate is needed. This point of speedrunning the game is to beat it as fast as possible. That's what a speedrun is. If you can buy a 10 dollar (Micro)SD card and/or get a digital copy of the game, then what's the harm? You're not bothering other runners who are using whatever methods they use to make it faster. Hell, I switched to French and did a few practice runs just because I thought French could save me 5 seconds in a run. Also, digital copies save in about 1/3 of the time, saving 2 seconds for each save and quit (6 seconds in all). So five seconds from a language change and 6 seconds in Saves, that's about an 11 second difference. And there aren't any run pairs that come close to only being 11 seconds apart, much less where both runs use different languages and only one of them is digital. And the n3DS doesn't return to the home menu that much faster, but it is more consistent and going between home menu and resuming and using the same amount of time to do so. It makes buffering more consistent, but it doesn't make a run 10-11 seconds faster. 1-2 seconds overall maybe.

The point is, the slowest possible setup (English, physical copy, 3DS) vs the fastest possible setup (Japanese, Digital on fast SD card, n3DS) only has a time difference of about 15-20 seconds overall given both have optimal execution. If you want to split categories based on that, you'll have to split categories based on who uses Goron boost to get to Great Bay early and who uses a bomb jump w/ jump slash to get to great bay early since one is potentially 15 seconds faster than another, but some of us just choose to do Goron Boost instead.

The debate here is really if one person used the slowest possible setup and another used the fastest, but the slower person was only a second off from the other guy's time, then who had better execution? That just means the slower person has the opportunity and potential to have a faster run, but chooses not to gain every advantage even if it costs 0 dollars. So why put marathon runners in different categories based on who wears Nikes with Dr. Schools foot inserts and who wears Addidas without socks?
MM3D, sub 2:15 in only 5 runs. I really need a capture board.

Offline benstephens1000

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When it comes to discussions such as leaderboards and rules for speedruns, I always like to use the decisions other communities use as a basis. In this case, my mind is drawn to Skyward Sword. Many runners are able to save a very significant amount of time in loading on the newer black wii model. They do not splits the times or convert or anything at all. Honestly, doing that just adds extra confusion that simply is not necessary.
"tsmart yashichidsf wild dumb bitch" -Isaacordorica 2012

Offline reidenlightman

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I found a way to go out of bounds to fake south CT from east CT. You have to get onto the straw roof using the deku flower and long jump onto the purple crown on the chest minigame place. You have to be Zora and you have to jumpslash onto the house. From there sidehop right 4 times and jumpslash 2 times. I would show an image, but I don't have anything to show it with :(

I've documented this. I gave you credit in the description. I'm trying to play around in there, see if anything interesting can come of it. As far as I can tell, it's useless. Entertaining to do though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmT930TGNTE

Demolition's OoB with the ranch. Definitely useless.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sh1iOR4Q3kY
« Last Edit: May 05, 2015, 11:21:42 AM by reidenlightman »
MM3D, sub 2:15 in only 5 runs. I really need a capture board.

Offline demolition14

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I found another OOB but it is useless. In Romani Ranch  after the cows  have been abducted you can zora gainer onto the small room attached to the building where all cows once were and you will pop up. after that you can do a zora backflip onto the non existent roof and either fall into the loading zone or a void.
"I will marry Demo when he gets WR" - Iwabi74

Offline benstephens1000

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Apparently having the extra circle pad is what causes the extra lag that makes one frame buffers so easy! This means with a circle pad pro, it is possible on a vanilla 3DS!! :)
"tsmart yashichidsf wild dumb bitch" -Isaacordorica 2012

Offline Madmonk12345

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Apparently having the extra circle pad is what causes the extra lag that makes one frame buffers so easy! This means with a circle pad pro, it is possible on a vanilla 3DS!! :)
LOL.

That is simultaeneously the greatest and dumbest find ever.

So glad you found this. Everybody was dragging their feet on this trick, and now people won't have to learn some rediculous one frame variant of this trick.

Offline weckar

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I understand from some other 3DS game communities that 'jiggling' the 3D on the N3DS also causes significant useful lag frames. I don't see a difference myself (although having to do ANOTHER button may be a factor here for me) but can someone more proficient in tricks confirm/deny this for MM3D?

Offline benstephens1000

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https://youtu.be/PRk-QU6ZXgc

I'll upload a lot more things that we can do with this tonight. I've already thought of about 4 or 5 things that could be really useful if we didn't already have faster ways to skip them
"tsmart yashichidsf wild dumb bitch" -Isaacordorica 2012

Offline reidenlightman

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https://youtu.be/PRk-QU6ZXgc

I'll upload a lot more things that we can do with this tonight. I've already thought of about 4 or 5 things that could be really useful if we didn't already have faster ways to skip them

Major(a) props to Ben for taking this trick from being a pain in everyone's ass to a slight migraine inducing obstacle.
MM3D, sub 2:15 in only 5 runs. I really need a capture board.

Offline Madmonk12345

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Major(a) props to Ben for taking this trick from being a pain in everyone's ass to a slight migraine inducing obstacle.
Not if I can help it, it seems. Though it may now be easier due to the CPP working, you guys are probably going to have to learn this at some point, and it's faster anyways.

Behold the return of the two buffer mask jump.

It's possible to gain height with mask jumps, but the time lost to buffering home is too costly to do so with the five buffer CMJ, requiring the two-buffer CMJ.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xreG0BDm7vw

To do it this way, for the input between inventory and the next buffer, on leaving the inventory screen press bottle as soon as the input will allow and press home + b simultaneously 1-3 frames after bottle, with 2 frames being ideal buffering. One frame requires an extra buffer to make it to the proper window and occasionally doesn't work for some reason, and three doesn't take you up as quickly. for frame 1, link will have large fins as he takes out the bottle, frame 2 will have link on the second frame of pulling out the bottle, which looks identical to the first frame of the jump slash, and frame 3 has Link in neutral behavior. 2-3 behave the same for buffers. The reason the two buffer method works is that home takes an additional frame to exit, skipping the two buffers waiting for the jump slash to start and placing the game in the proper state.

Also, simultaneous input of home + b is going to vary system by system because 3DS and N3DS have different levels of pressure required for home buttons IIRC. To figure out what it'll mean for your system, find which level of pressure on each button causes a mask jump if you buffer a physical button transformation mask input. figuring out how to do that consistently after hitting other buttons is the only hard part of the trick, and if you can do that the rest falls into place.

Two buffer CMJs can be done consistently. I'm getting chains of 10-15 mask jumps with it; it's just not a very easy trick to record because home + b is so finicky that the way you hold the device actually influences the result of the input. There's a reason every single video I've recorded of the trick has the N3DS held at an angle.

If we were able to get this working, STT BK skip might be doable, and I'm pretty sure there are some spots in there where hovering saves a substantial amount of time going over a specific sun block IIRC. This variant needs more testing to see what can be done with it. However, this trick can't make Goron skip possible because the trick isn't possible without the Goron mask anyways as you won't have a mask to switch to that works for transformation storage.


Offline reidenlightman

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Not if I can help it, it seems. Though it may now be easier due to the CPP working, you guys are probably going to have to learn this at some point, and it's faster anyways.

Behold the return of the two buffer mask jump.

It's possible to gain height with mask jumps, but the time lost to buffering home is too costly to do so with the five buffer CMJ, requiring the two-buffer CMJ.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xreG0BDm7vw

To do it this way, for the input between inventory and the next buffer, on leaving the inventory screen press bottle as soon as the input will allow and press home + b simultaneously 1-3 frames after bottle, with 2 frames being ideal buffering. One frame requires an extra buffer to make it to the proper window and occasionally doesn't work for some reason, and three doesn't take you up as quickly. for frame 1, link will have large fins as he takes out the bottle, frame 2 will have link on the second frame of pulling out the bottle, which looks identical to the first frame of the jump slash, and frame 3 has Link in neutral behavior. 2-3 behave the same for buffers. The reason the two buffer method works is that home takes an additional frame to exit, skipping the two buffers waiting for the jump slash to start and placing the game in the proper state.

Also, simultaneous input of home + b is going to vary system by system because 3DS and N3DS have different levels of pressure required for home buttons IIRC. To figure out what it'll mean for your system, find which level of pressure on each button causes a mask jump if you buffer a physical button transformation mask input. figuring out how to do that consistently after hitting other buttons is the only hard part of the trick, and if you can do that the rest falls into place.

Two buffer CMJs can be done consistently. I'm getting chains of 10-15 mask jumps with it; it's just not a very easy trick to record because home + b is so finicky that the way you hold the device actually influences the result of the input. There's a reason every single video I've recorded of the trick has the N3DS held at an angle.

If we were able to get this working, STT BK skip might be doable, and I'm pretty sure there are some spots in there where hovering saves a substantial amount of time going over a specific sun block IIRC. This variant needs more testing to see what can be done with it. However, this trick can't make Goron skip possible because the trick isn't possible without the Goron mask anyways as you won't have a mask to switch to that works for transformation storage.



Aaand... this turns out to be a pain in the ass to do.
MM3D, sub 2:15 in only 5 runs. I really need a capture board.

Offline Madmonk12345

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I take back that Goron skip impossibility. It's going to make the trick even harder though. Yay.

If we do the trick as regular Link, then we have two masks to switch. If it's possible to gain height as regular link then goron skip will happen. I'm going to look for an alternate method for regular link. This'll mean the trick has even higher stakes though. Regular link crashes at any height with any jump slash unless there's some alternate animation later on.

Not having Goron mask won't make new milk bar clip impossible with ZL though. because we can fall so much during the trick we should have time to put the deku mask back. There might be some way for me to get the mask back on in time with a separate pause and still gain height. It's probably going to involve touching the touch screen while doing the trick again though.

Offline Masterluigisw

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We need goron mask for Gibdo BA.

Also someone should mess around STT BKS... I'm sure there's a way with bomb boost, mask jumps, recoil flips or jumpslash recoil.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2015, 01:47:30 PM by Masterluigisw »

Offline Madmonk12345

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We need goron mask for Gibdo BA.

Also someone should mess around STT BKS... I'm sure there's a way with bomb boost, mask jumps, recoil flips or jumpslash recoil.
Not with arbitrary height gain we don't, at least in theory anyways. You can start up consecutive mask jumps from a side hop, so you should be able to make it over anything anywhere. Not necessarily quickly, granted; going over the fences that way sounds arduous given how slow the rise on CMJs are.

Definitely need to test STT BKS though. We have anything that we could possibly need.

Now, if only there was some way to make that Astral Observatory WW to Inverted Stone Tower not crash...

Offline Madmonk12345

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Uh, wow guys. You need to do more thorough testing. I just did a failed consecutive jump slash as regular link and it doesn't crash at all when you are high enough. O.O

Offline Madmonk12345

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OK. RIP that idea. when you attempt to do the third mask jump the game crashes because it attempts to go to an animation Link doesn't have that Zora does. :/ It's a shame, because link clearly is gaining height, and it's so much easier as regular Link.

I guess this is where that rumor came from. Bizarre.

Offline Madmonk12345

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OK, everyone had better thank me again for saving your asses. I swear, you guys have no drive at all. I've found a way to do the arbitrary height trick as zora the five buffer way, meaning everybody can do it.
The only thing we were doing wrong is not doing it fast enough.
1) press bottle and home at the same time as soon as possible after coming out of the menu(not as precise as b + home at all. best scenario is that link doesn't change positions at all after home. I was consistent at this part as soon as I tried it, and you should be too if you were doing CMJs already.)
2) press b the very next frame.
3) wait a frame
4) hold physical mask button plus mask or item inventory button.
5) release everything.
If you do it this way, link will gain height on every mask jump.

No more excuses for anybody. everyone can do this.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2015, 03:51:49 PM by Madmonk12345 »

Offline benstephens1000

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https://youtu.be/yUS0OQDL5wI

Fireblaze found a method to do this without Goron mask so I'll probably make a video of me doing that late tonight.
"tsmart yashichidsf wild dumb bitch" -Isaacordorica 2012

Offline weckar

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Awesome tutorial. Any idea how long it would take at run speed?

Offline reidenlightman

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Awesome tutorial. Any idea how long it would take at run speed?

In my experiments, I've found that simple consecutive mask jumps take about 15-20 seconds per mask jump. Raising mask jumps take a bit longer per mask jump. Probably around 20-25 optimally, but would probably average 30-35 seconds per mask jump. Other than that, it's pretty arbitrary how much time is costs to do in run.

I.E., Mask jump clipping into Milk bar takes about 45-50 seconds if done pretty quickly. That's from walking backwards off the ledge to getting into the Milk bar. Compared to the ~10 seconds of extra door transitions from going to W. Clock town, exiting W. clock town, getting back in W. clock town, and going to S. clock town. Arbitrarily, it kind of only costs about 30-35 seconds in that particular spot.

That's probably not what you were asking, but I thought I'd try to shed some light.

OK, everyone had better thank me again for saving your asses. I swear, you guys have no drive at all. I've found a way to do the arbitrary height trick as zora the five buffer way, meaning everybody can do it...

...No more excuses for anybody. everyone can do this.

@MadMonk It's not really fair to say we're not trying. Some of us want to speedrun and continue speedrunning, and trying to practice something that we're not good at figuring out on our own is kind of a waste of time. And not all of us have a n3DS or a circle pad pro for easy buffering. I ONLY started to record again for a new PB because my friends got me a n3DS for my birthday and I wanted to set and record a new PB.

(end of @MadMonk)

I've been at drive trying to figure out the fastest way to do certain things. Even trying to make up for loss of Deku Sword as much as possible in Epona Skip route. I even have a few videos which I was able to do thanks to my PB video.


Best Strat For Pirate's Fortress (Climbing up the Tower) | Majora's Mask 3D

Best Strat for Ghomess (Any% Epona Skip Route) | Majora's Mask 3D

Best Strat for Garo Master (Any% Epona Skip Route) | Majora's Mask 3D

Best STT Map Room Strat for Any% | Majora's Mask 3D <- BenStephens helped me improve this from my original idea.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2015, 09:37:06 PM by reidenlightman »
MM3D, sub 2:15 in only 5 runs. I really need a capture board.

Offline gymnast86

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Quote
I've been at drive trying to figure out the fastest way to do certain things. Even trying to make up for loss of Deku Sword as much as possible in Epona Skip route. I even have a few videos which I was able to do thanks to my PB video.


Best Strat For Pirate's Fortress (Climbing up the Tower) | Majora's Mask 3D

Best Strat for Ghomess (Any% Epona Skip Route) | Majora's Mask 3D

Best Strat for Garo Master (Any% Epona Skip Route) | Majora's Mask 3D

Best STT Map Room Strat for Any% | Majora's Mask 3D <- BenStephens helped me improve this from my original idea.

All of these strats look nice except for the Ghomess fight. It can be done much more easily by just using straight light arrows. It does require an RNG magic drop but since the Keese are constantly spawning around him it shouldnt be too much of a problem. Simply begin quickspinning if you run out of magic. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cdGxuEjRdI (Or get lucky like I did in the video ;) )

Offline reidenlightman

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All of these strats look nice except for the Ghomess fight. It can be done much more easily by just using straight light arrows. It does require an RNG magic drop but since the Keese are constantly spawning around him it shouldnt be too much of a problem. Simply begin quickspinning if you run out of magic. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cdGxuEjRdI (Or get lucky like I did in the video ;) )

I'm not sure how I feel about using light arrows all the time. What if you could use deku nuts then light arrows? Maybe not hu? I just think without relying on rng, using a stick slash after deku nuts is still a good time saver.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AtCoKudPLU

Sometimes when using the sticks, you hit a bat and ghomess (weird) which could fill on magic if needed. So I'll probably start using a light arrow for the first hit, use sticks until I'm out or I get a magic drop, then using light arrows again. Maybe be more consistent. We don't want to rely on RNG at any given moment.

Also Iwabi's 1:47:45 (WR as of this post) run shows that Ghomess can be hit with a stick jumpslash if light arrows are used to stun him. Not sure how fast that method is compared to the rest of ours, but I'd wager it's as fast as all light arrows if not faster since you don't have to wait after using alight arrow to pull out a stick. Light arrow, then pull out stick right away, then jumpslash when you can. I vote for that method. It's pretty easy, and if you enter with full magic, you will definitely having enough.

More finds

So it seems that buffering for the zora clip also stalls the timer for WW and 0th day. But that was obvious. But we need to take advantage of knowing that. To do Twinmold before Gyorg, we need to adjust the WW windows for Gyorg (or save and quit at a feather statue in Inverted Stone Tower Temple). The amount of time will be different for each system, but most New 3DSs will take 3.2 seconds to go out of the game and back in. Total time is roughly 38.4. You might want to test your own machine and see how fast or slow it does for you, then write down the earliest cycles you can get after Twinmold adjusted with that number.

Note: you need to have all of your buffers as fast as possible without dangling in the home menu for any reason. Practice your milk bar skip. Grind it like hell.

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After doing a few route changes, your timer should be in the 27-28 minute range when you defeat Twinmold. This leaves offsets of windows in those minutes and beyond as candidates for a Gibdo BA. This route change came from discovering that you can BA, then save and quit, and the BA will carry over when you restart the game. You can even turn off the system and remove the cartridge. Start the game up again, it will be set up for a wrong warp. This is handy as it helps with convenience after Goht.

Let's say you did BA at 3:49 for Goht and beat him with an ideal fight. You didn't save and quit. You regain control of Link in Mountain Village around 9:30. Still 60 seconds until the next wrong warp window, 10:31-10:45. That's 60 seconds of waiting. I mean, you could get damage from the tektite, but that only takes about 10 seconds to do. And you only need 2-3 more sticks from the babas. You would have plenty of time to do that after the BA where time it doesn't matter as long as you're in Milk Bar before 6am. There's a lot of wasted time here.

So I wanted to see if I could retain WW after a Save and Quit. And for kicks, I had my timer going after that save and quit. After an ideal Goht fight, I was put back in roughtly 23 seconds before the window. It takes 28 seconds to save, quit, and restart (26 on digital versions), and 28+23=51. That's less than 60. In this manner, after you do Gibdo BA for Goht wrong warp, if you collect sticks until you hear the clock tower ring (6 sticks optimally), then save and quit, it puts you at the perfect time. Of course, you can give yourself a bit more time to get to the grotto by saving a little later, but waiting any more than another 5-6 seconds nulls the time save this strat offers.

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I've been testing boss key fight skip. Obviously it's not hard to get a good gecko fight, but it's a bit tougher to do the skip. Just a bit though, but can be executed pretty quickly. I timed each one over and over to see the fastest times I could get with each one. Timing started when I pressed A to enter the room and timing stopped when the tatl alert for the main room popped up (since that's where the two strats intersect).

The best time I got with Gecko fight is 1:35.

The best time I got with Boss Key fight skip is 1:20.

So there you have it. I was able to save 15 more seconds due to this strat. Wouldn't we all like 15 seconds?

---

Also

Link to the route I've been working on. I hope I can get some feedback on this.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2015, 10:51:41 PM by reidenlightman »
MM3D, sub 2:15 in only 5 runs. I really need a capture board.

Offline Madmonk12345

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@MadMonk It's not really fair to say we're not trying. Some of us want to speedrun and continue speedrunning, and trying to practice something that we're not good at figuring out on our own is kind of a waste of time. And not all of us have a n3DS or a circle pad pro for easy buffering. I ONLY started to record again for a new PB because my friends got me a n3DS for my birthday and I wanted to set and record a new PB.
Sorry about that. Was a bit emotional at that moment. There was a long period where I was concerned that the trick would never appear in a run and that people wouldn't find other things with this because of system requirements. I was channeling some of that, even though that time has passed.

I wonder if arbitrary height gain and goron skip could be practical for any%. With fast buffers and by increasing the speed and difficulty of the trick by removing a few of the 5 buffers we do now, it's possible it could be done much faster than it is now without going as crazy as a tas would. It probably needs to happen if we're going to beat MM2D times unfortunately.

Offline reidenlightman

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Sorry about that. Was a bit emotional at that moment. There was a long period where I was concerned that the trick would never appear in a run and that people wouldn't find other things with this because of system requirements. I was channeling some of that, even though that time has passed.

I wonder if arbitrary height gain and goron skip could be practical for any%. With fast buffers and by increasing the speed and difficulty of the trick by removing a few of the 5 buffers we do now, it's possible it could be done much faster than it is now without going as crazy as a tas would. It probably needs to happen if we're going to beat MM2D times unfortunately.

Believe me, I want to make this game faster too. I've put so much work into improving the Epona Skip route. I probably beat Goht 20 times yesterday in my testing.

Ben's find with the circle pad pro is crazy and what made this trick more accessible. Otherwise, I think I'd probably be the only one doing it since I have a n3DS. The trick's not much easier, but it's more accessible.

And if I didn't get at least some credit for the route, I'd be pissed, so I know how you were probably feeling. I think most of us aren't exactly cut out to be glitch-hunters.

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I suppose we could mask jump with height gain past the two fences for early Ikana. And the same could probably be done from the rock we stand on to get up there. That would probably take 1 and 1/2 minutes per fence (sub-optimal). And then use this thing I found. But then the sunblock tower takes 10 mask jumps. I got onto it with 1 mask jump from a side hope, then 9 more for height gain. Not all of them were perfect either. That's 3 seconds per buffer, 5 buffers per jump, 3 for the first one.

That's 3*5*9+3*3*1=144. Aproximately 144 seconds to get on top of that. And that's if you're fast and only counts the minimum amount of buffers. That doesn't count menu time.. A minimum of 2 1/2 minutes is required to reach it. 3 minutes if you're pretty slow though. That's for the time block. For the fences, we need 1 mask jump and 2 height gaining mask jumps per fence. 2(3*3+5*3) 48 seconds. So round up to another minute. We're looking at strats that show 3 1/2 minutes. From clock town owl to lens to goron mask to clock town owl again is 5 1/2 minutes of time average. That sounds like 2 minutes of time save.

BUT, I haven't even taken into consideration how much longer Goht will take, how much slower we'll be without Goron rolling, and the fact that we still need to go to Mountain Village to get the owl statue unless we move that later in the run to when we need mountain village. So the trip from clock town up to Mountain Village owl is NOT time saved.

The time it takes to get from clock town owl to mountain village owl (and activate it) is ~1:35. So in order to save time, Goht cannot take longer than 30 seconds more than Goron strats.

If you're wondering why I'm doing all this math, it's because I want to know if skipping goron mask could actually save time or if it's just a pipe dream.

I also wonder how we beat goht without goron mask.

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Link to Epona Skip Route by ReidenLightman
« Last Edit: May 15, 2015, 11:32:24 AM by reidenlightman »
MM3D, sub 2:15 in only 5 runs. I really need a capture board.

Offline gymnast86

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Well the route with epona skip was pretty obvious to come up with since all we have to do is not get epona and continue let he timer running while doing all the wrong warps. I don't want to say that you don't deserve "credit" for the route, but the first hour is basically the same and we just chain the wrong warps after that. Although I didn't think about doing gyorg last to hopefully get third day so good job on that :) .

As for skipping Goron mask, I honestly don't think it would be worth it at this point unless we can find a way to move as fast as Goron link, and find a way to fight Goht which won't take an annoying amount of time. Also, not being a Goron also presents the potential for missing wrong warp cycles because of slower movement and Goron link is pretty useful for the majors fight.

And speaking of the majors fight, the fastest I seem to be able to beat it whilst using Goron link on Wrath took me ~3:30 with a very good fight starting from the fade out after talking to the child beneath the tree. If anyone has faster Majora starts I would love to hear them.

Offline reidenlightman

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Well the route with epona skip was pretty obvious to come up with since all we have to do is not get epona and continue let he timer running while doing all the wrong warps. I don't want to say that you don't deserve "credit" for the route, but the first hour is basically the same and we just chain the wrong warps after that. Although I didn't think about doing gyorg last to hopefully get third day so good job on that :) .

I didn't want all the credit. But at least some credit for what I was able to come up with. After all, I'm just trying to make sure every point in the route is using time wisely, especially when waiting for WW windows. (I want to credit the contributors who came up with the route that included deku sword and epona clip into milk bar. PM me on forums.zeldaspeedruns.com)

I did think doing Gyorg last was pretty clever. To be honest, it came from wanting to do STT wrong warp asap so when you lost a run to it, it kill maybe 1h 20m instead of 1h 40m. You could do Stone Tower Temple before Goht if you managed to collect 8 sticks without wasting time. When I first did the route in a practice run, I found myself hoping that when I mashed for Gyorg I would get third day.

Then, conveniently, I had the thought that the fewer hearts you have, the less damage you would have to take to be ready for elegy skip in switch puzzle. If you end up being full, there are PLENTY of bomb drops directly afterwards in STT. You can drop bomb and have them hurt you while you're pushing the block. 0.25 seconds per bomb. 5 hearts, you lose 1 heart to the bombchus, so max amount of bombs you would spend on this is 5. More efficient than bombchus against a statue or using the tektite on your way to the grotto.

Also, Gyorg last conveniently puts a backup fairy less than 5 seconds away from Link after the Giant's cutscene.

As for skipping Goron mask, I honestly don't think it would be worth it at this point unless we can find a way to move as fast as Goron link, and find a way to fight Goht which won't take an annoying amount of time. Also, not being a Goron also presents the potential for missing wrong warp cycles because of slower movement and Goron link is pretty useful for the majors fight.

And speaking of the majors fight, the fastest I seem to be able to beat it whilst using Goron link on Wrath took me ~3:30 with a very good fight starting from the fade out after talking to the child beneath the tree. If anyone has faster Majora starts I would love to hear them.

For incarnation (which seems to be the most troublesome for most), I use any sticks I've gathered between Twinmold and Gyorg WW. After I stun incarnation, I jumpslash with a stick then sword quick spin and hope the quick spin stuns him again. Another stick jumpslash and quick spins. 5-6 damage per stun, so about 6 stuns oughta do it.

I haven't been able to actually get Goron to punch wrath. He always seems to miss after the first punch. Any help on this would be appreciated. Stick strats are unreliable for Wrath. And Light arrows and definitely best for Mask phase.

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God damn, I found a better and easier way to target the path to Ikana feather statue as a Zora. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gItveeIMy9s

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Wow, I always try to keep these small and end up writing a lot.

Thanks to those who routed the game before Epona Skip.
Thanks to Gymast and BenStephens for helping me optimize certain areas.
Thanks to Fozzy for his encouragement.
Thanks to iwabi who demonstrated stick jumpslashes on Ghomess
Thanks to Lily247 who gave me the idea to save+quit between BA and WW.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2015, 01:43:31 PM by reidenlightman »
MM3D, sub 2:15 in only 5 runs. I really need a capture board.

Offline gymnast86

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Wait I still don't understand why it is necessary to S + Q in STT. What's the reason for it? As far as I'm concerned the wrong warp cycle is still going and being activated every 80 seconds

Offline reidenlightman

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Wait I still don't understand why it is necessary to S + Q in STT. What's the reason for it? As far as I'm concerned the wrong warp cycle is still going and being activated every 80 seconds

When you home buffer, the in-game timer pauses. Unless you plan to pause your timer whenever you hit the home button and resume your timer whenever the game continues again, you should Save and Quit. Alternatively, you can time how long it takes for your 3DS to go out and in 12 times. That's the amount of times you will suspend and resume the game when buffering the Milk bar clip. And while you're waiting, pause your timer for that amount of time. If you used any extra pauses, you'll have to pause your timer a little longer. Meanwhile, on the arkazoth cycle timer, I added another region for where the windows will be if I do my buffering exactly right.

Otherwise, doing a save and quit after fighting Ghomess and soaring to entrance is easiest strat for that WW.
MM3D, sub 2:15 in only 5 runs. I really need a capture board.

Offline Pedalpowertoast

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Sorry guys, but can you stop calling him Ghomess? It's Gomess...


Kappa
http://www.youtube.com/user/Pedalpowerluigi

Using a slow version on purpose is your choice, but you will get no sympathy or agreement from me.
Lol