Author Topic: Death on Stairs = Run is Invalid? Discuss.  (Read 13419 times)

mabdulra

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Re: Death on Stairs = Run is Invalid? Discuss.
« Reply #40 on: February 21, 2015, 01:01:39 PM »
1. Old runs with old rulesets stay in place. New runs after a certain date must adhere to new rules. This is specifically in regards to where timing ends, which is now at a slightly later point on the pure white screen fadeout into the final cutscene.
2. No retiming except for Any% in LA and LADX because of how short those runs are--the added time matters.
3. Old runs that died on stairs will not be deleted, but rather unverified. They will remain unverified.

Can we agree on this?

Offline Tompa

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Re: Death on Stairs = Run is Invalid? Discuss.
« Reply #41 on: February 21, 2015, 01:02:12 PM »
Die = Not reaching the end = Did not finish = Not legit. Period.
May the Triforce be with you.

Offline Deln

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Re: Death on Stairs = Run is Invalid? Discuss.
« Reply #42 on: February 21, 2015, 01:02:45 PM »
now this is something i will agree on.

Offline Flynn

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Re: Death on Stairs = Run is Invalid? Discuss.
« Reply #43 on: February 21, 2015, 01:02:51 PM »
Seems fair.

mabdulra

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Re: Death on Stairs = Run is Invalid? Discuss.
« Reply #44 on: February 21, 2015, 01:03:58 PM »
Die = Not reaching the end = Did not finish = Not legit. Period.
This is why I like the unverify option.
Unfortunately, the rules did allow stairs death in the past. I think our goal is to keep the documented history of runs as well, however. In future runs, death on stairs will not count as completion because of the new rules.

Offline LoenP

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Re: Death on Stairs = Run is Invalid? Discuss.
« Reply #45 on: February 21, 2015, 01:05:06 PM »
I vote to unverify any runs that had death on stairs, but not delete.

Offline Riddler

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Re: Death on Stairs = Run is Invalid? Discuss.
« Reply #46 on: February 21, 2015, 01:08:59 PM »
I agree that the old runs that died on the stairs should only be unverified. the runners didn't do anything wrong, as they couldn't foresee these changes, so deleting the runs wouldn't make sense.

mabdulra

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Re: Death on Stairs = Run is Invalid? Discuss.
« Reply #47 on: February 21, 2015, 01:14:17 PM »
Alright. We have decided then! The rules pages will be updated accordingly by Tompa.

Offline LoenP

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Re: Death on Stairs = Run is Invalid? Discuss.
« Reply #48 on: February 21, 2015, 04:30:53 PM »
oh jesus

I've got so many tabs open wrong thread

mabdulra

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Re: Death on Stairs = Run is Invalid? Discuss.
« Reply #49 on: February 21, 2015, 05:45:34 PM »
I went through and adjusted times for LA and LADX Any%.
For LADX the time added is about 2 seconds.
For LA the time added is about 6 seconds due to lag from having two copies of Dethyl.

I unverified runs that died on stairs for Any% as well as for All Instruments in LADX--at least for the current PBs of those runners. If you discover a verified run that did die on stairs please let me know and I'll unverify it.

As of February 21, 2015 and on, the ruleset will require timing to end on white screen. The official rules on the site haven't updated yet, but they will soon. If you find any page outside the leaderboards that has inconsistencies, please let me know and I will get around to fixing those as well.

Offline aulos

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Re: Death on Stairs = Run is Invalid? Discuss.
« Reply #50 on: February 21, 2015, 07:13:12 PM »
1. Old runs with old rulesets stay in place. New runs after a certain date must adhere to new rules. This is specifically in regards to where timing ends, which is now at a slightly later point on the pure white screen fadeout into the final cutscene.
2. No retiming except for Any% in LA and LADX because of how short those runs are--the added time matters.
3. Old runs that died on stairs will not be deleted, but rather unverified. They will remain unverified.

I know the thing has already been decided, but I just wanted to say that just not verifying runs didn't come into my mind. Now I just agree with everyone saying that this is the best option.

Offline Deln

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Re: Death on Stairs = Run is Invalid? Discuss.
« Reply #51 on: February 23, 2015, 08:50:15 PM »
did we ever agreed to time on white screen?

Offline oseabass

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Re: Death on Stairs = Run is Invalid? Discuss.
« Reply #52 on: February 24, 2015, 12:51:34 PM »
As of February 21, 2015 and on, the ruleset will require timing to end on white screen. The official rules on the site haven't updated yet, but they will soon. If you find any page outside the leaderboards that has inconsistencies, please let me know and I will get around to fixing those as well.

I have no problem with the death on stairs meaning you have not "finished" the game and thus the run would be "dead" (unless the player continues the game and then finishes the play through with a non death).  I for one don't really like the new timing.  Most speed games the timing ends on the last user input.  For LA the last input would be when you touch the stairs (the old timing method).  I personally like this timing because it is very clear to the runner when time stops.  Yes it sucks if they stop time and then they end up dying and having to rerun the final fight... but runs can be retimed. 

I personally have been using this new method of "fade to white" and I feel like there is not a hard and fast timing in my head of when to hit STOP.  Before I could take my hand off the controller and if Link kept chugging up the stairs, I knew I was good.  Yes, it may be easy when watching it with a frame advance to see exactly the last full white frame and to see it's exactly XYZ seconds.  I still think that it is a confusing place to stop time.

TL DR:
Death on stairs = dead run. I approve.
Timing on white fade.  I disapprove.
Timing on stair touch.  I approve.

Offline aulos

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Re: Death on Stairs = Run is Invalid? Discuss.
« Reply #53 on: February 24, 2015, 03:40:58 PM »
Most speed games the timing ends on the last user input.  For LA the last input would be when you touch the stairs (the old timing method).

I might be a bit fussy but IMO the true last input is the last dialogue with the wind fish. I know you obviously finished the game there, but if you don't pass the texts, you theoretically never reach the credits.

Though since we stipulated that reaching the last dialogue clearly means that we finished the game, I guess the white fade is the best compromise.

Offline ZorlaxSeven

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Re: Death on Stairs = Run is Invalid? Discuss.
« Reply #54 on: February 24, 2015, 06:31:58 PM »
I might be a bit fussy but IMO the true last input is the last dialogue with the wind fish. I know you obviously finished the game there, but if you don't pass the texts, you theoretically never reach the credits.

Though since we stipulated that reaching the last dialogue clearly means that we finished the game, I guess the white fade is the best compromise.

Agreed. I am more for ending at the appearance of the instruments, but that's not really possible given this game's prior history. So I am more for the white screen. I don't like the idea of "validating" after they've been completed (if that statement makes sense).

Offline Deln

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Re: Death on Stairs = Run is Invalid? Discuss.
« Reply #55 on: February 24, 2015, 09:59:45 PM »
i approve for runs that died on the stairs to be invalid, but i sure dont approve this new timing.

Offline Flynn

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Re: Death on Stairs = Run is Invalid? Discuss.
« Reply #56 on: February 25, 2015, 01:53:15 PM »
My main issue was just the dying on stairs part, so as long as we agree on that I don't really have any real preference as to where we stop timing.  White screen seems like a decent compromise as peoples opinion on where to stop the timer seems somewhat varied.

To the people that dislike the new timing, what do you propose?


Offline Deln

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Re: Death on Stairs = Run is Invalid? Discuss.
« Reply #57 on: February 25, 2015, 02:39:53 PM »
i liked the timing to be on the stairs, if runs that died were just not going to be verified that's fine, but changing it doesnt really fix anything at all, its the same thing lol.

Offline oseabass

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Re: Death on Stairs = Run is Invalid? Discuss.
« Reply #58 on: February 25, 2015, 02:55:30 PM »
i liked the timing to be on the stairs, if runs that died were just not going to be verified that's fine, but changing it doesnt really fix anything at all, its the same thing lol.

I like the timing on stairs cus I'm used to it and it feels natural.  I can see white screen fade introducing "variance" in timings.

Offline ZorlaxSeven

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Re: Death on Stairs = Run is Invalid? Discuss.
« Reply #59 on: February 25, 2015, 10:37:09 PM »
Since we officially changed the timing, I think a retiming of all old No S&Q runs is in order too.

Offline Deln

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Re: Death on Stairs = Run is Invalid? Discuss.
« Reply #60 on: February 26, 2015, 07:14:55 AM »
it would only make sense if you guys retimed every single runs and not only any% or AI :/

Offline mzxrules

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Re: Death on Stairs = Run is Invalid? Discuss.
« Reply #61 on: February 26, 2015, 09:10:22 AM »
Did we change the timing, or did I change the timing on the rules and people are calling it official?
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Offline ZorlaxSeven

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Re: Death on Stairs = Run is Invalid? Discuss.
« Reply #62 on: February 26, 2015, 11:10:45 AM »
Did we change the timing, or did I change the timing on the rules and people are calling it official?
I believe the timing was changed by Tompa. It was discussed earlier without any negative response from the community, but now people are starting to like it. *Shrug*