Author Topic: Enemy/Boss Strategies  (Read 12669 times)

Offline Paraxade

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Enemy/Boss Strategies
« on: December 01, 2013, 10:15:17 PM »
This is probably worth having its own thread... Anyone have a good strategy for Thieves' Hideout's boss, or Ice Ruin's miniboss? Those both have a habit of killing me a lot and in fact they screwed over two decent runs today. :x

Might have some enemy strats worth posting, can't think of any off the top of my head though.

Offline mzxrules

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Re: Enemy/Boss Strategies
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2013, 11:09:54 PM »
Related somewhat, I am working on figuring out damage charts for enemies / bosses https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AiGHKbL4ONGXdHZPT2xaRW5QSkJYZVRFcXdOeTFaWUE#gid=2
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Offline Rdy

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Re: Enemy/Boss Strategies
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2013, 08:22:09 AM »
This is probably worth having its own thread... Anyone have a good strategy for Thieves' Hideout's boss, or Ice Ruin's miniboss? Those both have a habit of killing me a lot and in fact they screwed over two decent runs today. :x

Might have some enemy strats worth posting, can't think of any off the top of my head though.

For Blind, for the first half, keeping your distance is totally okay, since you can only attack him after you make him block, which he won't do until he finishes attacking you first. Remember that he starts doing two swipes rather than just one after so much damage. For the spin attack, just lead him around on the edges and you should have plenty of room to maneuver around him.

For the second half, his attacks are very easy to dodge with even the smallest of side-steps, allowing you to continue attacking him. The threat IMO actually comes from the floating head, at that point, but it does minimal damage (and I don't think it stuns Link, too) so taking those hits in the face should usually be okay. Remember that just before you kill him his sword won't get stuck in the ground and he will continue to swipe, though these attacks are still very trivial to dodge with sidesteps.

I don't actually recall what the Ice Ruins miniboss is. The large penguins? This is just theoretical from what I've seen in the Treacherous Tower, but if they keep running for so long then they start sliding again, and when they are sliding they DO recoil from your sword hits. Otherwise, just strafe while using the rebound from hitting them to not get cornered.

Offline Bamboocha

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Re: Enemy/Boss Strategies
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2013, 11:48:31 AM »
Thieve's Hideout Boss:

1st phase: Merging on the shield etc is pretty obvious I guess. When he does his black breath thing just stand in the opposite corner and quickly shoot 3 arrows and walk away. That should take 2 or 3 cycles, I don't remember.

2nd phase: What I do is just stay very close to him and spam sword attacks and I try to stay slightly to his left cause he has the sword on the right hand so I can just walk a bit around him when he starts attacking. During his whirlwind thing I personally just keep attacking and take the damage but if you are low on health you should just walk around until he stops.

3rd phase: I try to just stay behind him and spam attacks a bit slower so I can follow him and stay behind him while attacking. That way he won't attack at all and the only threat is the head which doesn't do much damage.


Ice Ruin's Miniboss: What I just discovered is that a spin-attack with lvl 2 master word oneshoots the small ones so I just walk in the middle and spin-attack right in the beginning which usually kills 3 of them. From there it gets pretty easy. I kill the Ice thing before the fight to be safe.

Offline mzxrules

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Re: Enemy/Boss Strategies
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2013, 11:58:41 PM »
I mentioned this in the irc. Apparently one part of the Yu-ganon fight can be skipped completely, according to Gamefaqs.

"I thought this was a joke until I read it more closely, lol. So basically, if you use a spin attack at the right moment during the "Yuga charges along the walls" phase, you can kill him before you get to the "Yuga blocks everything so you have to aim the other way" phase? That's kinda neat, I wonder if the same thing could be done with the Super Lamp instead of the Golden Sword."

"Anything that does the equivalent of two Golden Sword hits should work, as long as it damages him. There's a weapon damage guide on ZeldaSpeedRuns. The Great Spin is even better as it does 4x damage. I think I'll try doing it in Phase 1 to see what happens."
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This is art because the music is classical music, and the graphics are done with a pen. The story is something about a woman. I could not understand much of this to be honest, which makes it even more likely to be an art.

Offline Hitaka

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Re: Enemy/Boss Strategies
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2013, 04:28:12 PM »
I can confirm that two-round Yuganon works. With gold sword and great spin, on both rounds, I did one slash and two great spins, and he died. I think you have to do it on both rounds for enough surplus damage to pile up. 6 gold sword slashes is the most you can do in one round before he vanishes, and a great spin is 4 slashes, so that's the maximum possible damage in two rounds. If great spin is required, and I suspect it is, this will only be useful in 100%. Pretty nice timesaver though.

EDIT: Might as well throw some numbers in.

One normal round: 6 gold slashes = 6*4 = 24 damage
One max damage round: 1 slash + 2 great spins = 4 + (2*16) = 36 damage
Total surplus damage per round: 12
Total surplus damage overall: 24

As you can see, the total surplus damage is equal to one "normal" round's worth of damage. So by doing three rounds of damage in two rounds, he dies a round early. I'm not entirely sure if this is actually how it's calculated, since on the final round he dies in one hit no matter what sword you have. The game might set his health to 1 at that point, but his "real" health for the rest of the battle is 72.

EDIT2: I left out a normal slash, and 20 surplus damage wasn't enough. You absolutely must do 36 damage per round. Nice bombs/hammer won't cut it, only gold sword great spins are strong enough to get the 12 surplus per round.

EDIT3: Just to be absolutely sure, I tried with 23 surplus damage, and it didn't work. 24 is the minumum.

EDIT4: Also just to be absolutely sure, I confirmed with the nice Hookshot that 24 is the minimum damage he will take in a round before he vanishes.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2013, 05:00:33 PM by Hitaka »
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Offline Ganrokh

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Re: Enemy/Boss Strategies
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2013, 11:24:52 PM »
So, I've been experimenting with different weapons on different bosses, and found out that the Ice Rod works on the boss of the Swamp Temple.

When the boss goes into phase 2 after you Hookshot all of the eyes off, you can freeze him with the Ice Rod. Every hit with the Rod was dealing damage and interrupting him. If he was in the air and was hit with the Rod, he would land and stay idle for 1-2 seconds. If you hit him with the Ice Rod when he's on the ground, he is completely frozen for a few seconds, or until you hit him. Once he thaws, he's idle for 1-2 seconds as well. I'm not sure what hitting him with the Rod will do when he's firing the lasers, as with the Rod I've been killing him before he's had a chance to do that. You have to be precise with hitting him with the Rod, though. I've had him move out from under the ice before, and missing him really hurts your stamina. However, utilizing the Ice Rod against him has gotten me very quick kills on him once he enters phase 2.

This strategy also works on him in Lorule Castle.

Edit: Also, I'm curious if anyone knows what the trigger is for the Turtle Rock boss to do his spin attack? Or is it random? I was grinding the dungeon earlier and I had an attempt where the boss did it once, and an attempt where the boss did it 4 times almost back to back. I suppose the same question also applies for his AoE fire attack as well.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2013, 07:21:01 AM by Ganrokh »

Offline Paraxade

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Re: Enemy/Boss Strategies
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2013, 12:07:16 PM »
The moves the Turtle Rock boss uses in Phase 2 are random. In Phase 1 though, he always uses the fire attack after every two hits. You can cancel that attack early if you hit it with the Ice Rod.

Also, according to Zelda Wiki these are the boss names, not sure where they got them from:

Tower of Hera: Moldorm
House of Gales: Margomill
Dark Palace: Gemesaur King
Swamp Palace: Arrghus
Skull Woods: Knucklemaster
Thieves' Hideout: Stalbind
Desert Palace: Zaganaga
Ice Ruins: Dharkstare
Turtle Rock: Grinexx

Offline Hitaka

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Re: Enemy/Boss Strategies
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2013, 05:44:14 PM »
Also, according to Zelda Wiki these are the boss names, not sure where they got them from:

Tower of Hera: Moldorm
House of Gales: Margomill
Dark Palace: Gemesaur King
Swamp Palace: Arrghus
Skull Woods: Knucklemaster
Thieves' Hideout: Stalbind
Desert Palace: Zaganaga
Ice Ruins: Dharkstare
Turtle Rock: Grinexx
I'll stick with Phallus Cactus and Turdlecano thank you very much.
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Offline RheaultWnage

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Re: Enemy/Boss Strategies
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2013, 08:18:46 PM »
Does anyone know if the Ice Ruins boss (Dharkstare? Cool name) can be taken down in 2 cycles? I think I heard zandergoth on his stream say it had been done, but I'm not sure if I remember correctly. Also, I'm not sure if it's possible using the any% items you would have by that point (basically Tempered Sword and every rentable items except Boomerang).

The way most of my fights have gone is:

1st cycle: Up to 9 Tempered Sword slashes (27 damage)
2nd cycle: Never went past the 45 total damage "barrier". Every time I got 9 hits in on the first cycle, I'd get 6 on the second cycle, even when I was chaining them nicely.

The boss takes a total of 17 slashes to kill, so 51 damage, but I'm thinking he actually has 50 HP. (Haven't tested yet, will have to on another savefile where I have more hearts/a better tunic so I don't die in 2 hits haha)

Offline Paraxade

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Re: Enemy/Boss Strategies
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2013, 11:55:53 PM »
...so uh, I accidentally found a trick for the Desert Palace boss during a run today. Apparently since enemies can't hurt you while they have damage invulnerability, there's nothing stopping you from walking onto the same platform as the boss without getting hurt. This means you can deal far more damage because you don't have to worry about the sand pillars falling down. I was able to take down the second phase in two cycles this way.

Offline Hitaka

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Re: Enemy/Boss Strategies
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2013, 01:39:27 AM »
Does anyone know if the Ice Ruins boss (Dharkstare? Cool name) can be taken down in 2 cycles?
I haven't had any luck, even with the gold sword. Seems like he always ends the round prematurely when he's almost dead. A great spin could probably do it, but without that I'm not sure. Maybe a well-timed normal spin if he lets his health get low enough.
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Offline Paraxade

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Re: Enemy/Boss Strategies
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2013, 11:45:21 AM »
On Dharkstare if you have full health you can actually hit him twice with every sword slash, once by hitting him with your actual sword and once with the Master Sword beam. Maybe that'll help two-cycle him? I haven't been able to do that, but I was pretty sure it was possible. Maybe not if he ends the round prematurely though.

Offline mzxrules

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Re: Enemy/Boss Strategies
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2013, 11:55:06 AM »
Ok so the normal Master Sword clearly behaves differently against Yuganon's second phase. It takes 8 slashes to deal enough to advance to the next phase, meaning it's power is raised to 3 for that fight. Anyone know how many slashes it takes with the Lv2 sword?
Quote from:  Leigh Rogers
Braid
This is art because the music is classical music, and the graphics are done with a pen. The story is something about a woman. I could not understand much of this to be honest, which makes it even more likely to be an art.

Offline Paraxade

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Re: Enemy/Boss Strategies
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2013, 12:04:50 PM »
Six slashes with Lv2.

Offline Cluck

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Re: Enemy/Boss Strategies
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2013, 12:19:51 PM »
Quickest and safest way I've found to kill ice ruins miniboss. I did it cleaner, but the basic setup is there. http://www.twitch.tv/xcluck/c/3393636

Offline kirbymastah

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Re: Enemy/Boss Strategies
« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2013, 08:34:32 AM »
Some strategies I've come up with for a few specific fights.

Swamp Palace Boss 2nd Phase:

Have Ice Rod Equipped (perfect if you're doing turtle rock after swamp palace, which I'm doing).
Slash it 2-3 times while it's on the ground. When it jumps, immediately ice rod to damage it and knock it back down to ground and freeze it shortly. Repeat. Should be faster than just dodging each time.

Giant Electric Jellyfishish Fights (in 4 trials, and miniboss in swamp palace):

Have Bow equipped

Immediately slash it 4-5 times. It'll electrify itself. Shoot it with the bow exactly twice, then start slashing it again. If you have master sword lvl 2, it'll split up after 2-3 more slashes.

When it splits up, shoot 2-3 smaller guys since they start off electrified, then run around; you have barely enough time to slash the rest manually (takes me 3-4 slashes usually) before they electrify themselves again.


Tower of Hera Boss

I personally find it easier to use the bow on this fight, actually, since the bow does 2 damage. I haven't practiced the timing yet, but the first pattern is always the same, so you can easily snipe it at the very start of the fight without moving, probably with some audio cue (I'll figure that out some time soon).

Might come down to personal preference, but I just think using the bow is easier since your mobility isn't slowed down when charging a spin attack. Three bow shots are pretty reasonable to hit it with; after that, it turns red and move really fast, but at that point, all you need is one normal sword slash to finish it off.

Offline Roadagain

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Re: Enemy/Boss Strategies
« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2013, 03:43:40 PM »
Moldorm at the Tower of Hera... I think my strat for the thing is pretty optimal.



I run in and slash Moldorm, then stay roughly at the circled area in the above image. Since Moldorm sort of comes right at you, it allows you to charge the spin attack, as well as dodge by forcing Moldy to hit the hole and be turned away. Then you just repeat it till it dies.

One thing that's worth noting is that this is also roughly where the heart appears. However, if the Heart appears right at the spot you stand at, you won't pick it up until you walk away and back. Just something to keep in mind.

Offline kirbymastah

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Re: Enemy/Boss Strategies
« Reply #18 on: December 27, 2013, 06:11:35 PM »
One thing that's worth noting is that this is also roughly where the heart appears. However, if the Heart appears right at the spot you stand at, you won't pick it up until you walk away and back. Just something to keep in mind.

This also applies to the warps in the 4 trials of Lorule Castle, so if you finish off a trial boss, you want to stand right BY the warp if possible, rather than on top of it, before it spawns.

Anyways, I've started practicing Yuganon and this is what I do for the first phase (which is a tough fight to learn =/)

If he swings his weapon, stay just outside of its range. Right after his swing, fire an arrow then run in and slash him twice. I'm sure using the bow is faster than not, as if you don't shoot it, you can only squeeze in two slashes anyways.

I also use the tornado rod to dodge his spinning rod attack; not really faster, but hey, it helps avoid damage!

Offline Roadagain

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Re: Enemy/Boss Strategies
« Reply #19 on: December 27, 2013, 11:34:59 PM »
Quote
This also applies to the warps in the 4 trials of Lorule Castle, so if you finish off a trial boss, you want to stand right BY the warp if possible, rather than on top of it, before it spawns.

This is true as well. Speaking of the trials, the Moldorm strategy works to an extent in the Trial version too, by staying in the corners of the field, which drastically reduces the chance of Moldorm actually hitting you. Not as effective as in ToH, but eh.

Offline mzxrules

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Re: Enemy/Boss Strategies
« Reply #20 on: January 01, 2014, 04:48:47 AM »
The Yuganon notes I wrote for a post on Zelda Universe. Most of it covers A.I. behavior.

When the fight starts, move left or right a touch to lure him into a lunge attack for some easy hits.  There are two different strategies to combat the basic attacks that Yuganon throws in phase one.

  • You can be extremely aggressive and get up in Ganon's grill. The standard lunge can be dodged by being super close and preferably rotating clockwise so that you stay near his non-trident hand. To avoid the slash attack, you basically slash to recoil off of his trident, just barely out of reach as long as you aren't backed up against a wall. You still want to be attacking his non-trident side.
  • You can lay back a bit. You'll be more vulnerable to the standard lunge, but should be able to easily avoid the slash attack with patience.


Either way, watch out for Ganon's double slash attack. It's easy to dodge when you know it's there.

With maybe 1/4th of his health gone, Ganon will start using a teleport, or a teleport  into a slash attack. You can read where he teleports by watching the particle effect that pops up when he teleports away: he will spawn in the same general direction as the particles move to. He will also use a charged lunge attack that can be avoided easily by standing closer to the opposite wall and moving roughly parallel to the trident.

At 1/2 of his health gone (critical health), Ganon will start to flash red, and will introduce two more attacks, as well as teleport around more frequently. The first attack is one where various balls will shoot lightning down causing an explosion on the ground. This attack is easily avoided by simply making sure that you are moving. Yuganon will typically use this attack as soon as he reaches critical health, but sometimes it will be delayed if he hits critical health while in the teleport->slash pattern.

The second is Ganon's famous trident toss, which shares the same sort of charge animation as the charged trident lunge. The trident toss will replace the charged trident lunge, but occasionally Ganon will throw in a charged trident lunge immediately following a trident toss. Avoiding the trident toss is a little tricky: If Ganon is standing next to a wall before the trident is thrown, you can stand at the opposite wall and safely avoid the attack. Otherwise, staying close to Ganon will allow you to predict how the trident will move since about a few seconds after Ganon throws the trident, he teleports, and you can use the particle effect to guess where he will spawn (and consequently the point that the trident will home in on when he catches it). There is a safe spot to stand near the trident-less hand such that you won't be hit when he tosses the trident, allowing you to view the particle effect.

After phase one is the second and final phase, and arguably his easier phase. There are three parts to this phase:

Part 1: Ganon will always start with a dead man's volley. If you swing and miss the ball, you won't be able to deflect it back, so you will need to focus and be patient with your swings. If you miss, you can try to merge with a nearby wall, but don't rely on this. After Ganon is hit and you collect the light arrows, simply shoot his front then behind, and hack away when he pops out of the wall. With the Lv1 Master Sword, this will take 8 swings (which suggests that the Lv1 Master Sword deals extra damage for this fight). When Ganon pops back into the wall, you will want to merge into the corner of the wall to avoid the fire bats. Unmerge once or twice to conserve magic.

Part 2: Same sort of deal as part 1, but the volley ball will move faster this time. Shoot once with the light arrow to force Ganon to charge at you, unmerge, merge behind him.

Part 3: After you dodge all the bats from the last phase, you are home free. This time, you are allowed to spam your sword slash to return the two volley balls. Fire the light arrow, stab once more, done.
Quote from:  Leigh Rogers
Braid
This is art because the music is classical music, and the graphics are done with a pen. The story is something about a woman. I could not understand much of this to be honest, which makes it even more likely to be an art.

Offline kirbymastah

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Re: Enemy/Boss Strategies
« Reply #21 on: January 01, 2014, 06:23:01 AM »
In Yuganon Phase 2, you do NOT want to merge during the light ball attack as it wastes like 1-2 seconds from the merge + unmerge animation. Just manually dodge them (or tornado rod); you should only merge if you're at risk of dying.

Offline mzxrules

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Re: Enemy/Boss Strategies
« Reply #22 on: January 01, 2014, 03:32:54 PM »
Yea some of it is scrub / three heart run strats rather than speed strats.
Quote from:  Leigh Rogers
Braid
This is art because the music is classical music, and the graphics are done with a pen. The story is something about a woman. I could not understand much of this to be honest, which makes it even more likely to be an art.

Offline RheaultWnage

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Re: Enemy/Boss Strategies
« Reply #23 on: January 02, 2014, 10:05:26 PM »
Small observation. Zaganaga (Desert Palace Boss) seems to always start the fight by going to the right platform. (He's gone there every time since I've been paying attention, at least.) So, falling down on the right half of the arena to activate the boss after exiting the portal and Sand Rod-ing straight down to that platform would be ideal.

Also, does anyone know a foolproof method of getting on his platform during his second phase? I seem to be only able to get on it about half the time, while the other half something appears to be blocking me.


EDIT: The idea of him always starting the fight by going right is WRONG.

On his current practice file (slot # 3), Anwonu has him always going left. My own file (slot # 2) has him always going right. My last PB (slot # 1), he went right. Anwonu tried copying his file from #3 to #2, and he still went left for him on #2. His WR run had him go right though.

It seems something at some point in the game sets the direction he will start with. Maybe?
« Last Edit: January 03, 2014, 09:59:54 AM by RheaultWnage »

Offline Anwonu

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Re: Enemy/Boss Strategies
« Reply #24 on: January 08, 2014, 10:49:01 PM »
This one is kinda obvious (though I just thought about it today while training =p), but didn't see it anywhere yet, and should help a lot: for Gemesaur 1st phase, instead of throwing bombs, just lay them close to his mask after lighting only 1 torch, and light the 2nd before they explode.
The interval between bombs is like.. 0.3s? Something like that; just don't put too fast and it should be fine.

Edit: http://www.twitch.tv/anwonu/c/3522274 (ignore last phase =p)
« Last Edit: January 09, 2014, 06:29:39 PM by Anwonu »

Offline Anwonu

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Re: Enemy/Boss Strategies
« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2014, 07:57:35 PM »
For those curious about the 4 armos room in eastern palace: 2 spins and spin + slashes seems to be roughly the same time. If there's a difference, it's by something like 0.1s.
That said, I suggest 2 spins attacks. After you do 1, you can already hold B to start charging another.

Offline kirbymastah

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Re: Enemy/Boss Strategies
« Reply #26 on: January 12, 2014, 12:21:22 AM »
After hitting Yuganon's final phase with the third arrow of light, I was like "Hm, let's fire a normal arrow for lulz"

It finished him off. This is faster than dashing into him :P

I'm tired so I'm gonna go to bed, but I wanna test out trying hookshot instead LOL. Unfortunately if hookshot is faster, it's probably by frames; I personally equip tornado rod and bow for the fight, meaning I'll have to do an item switch.

Offline mzxrules

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Re: Enemy/Boss Strategies
« Reply #27 on: January 12, 2014, 02:34:43 AM »
After the third light arrow the last hit can be anything. I thought people knew this?
Quote from:  Leigh Rogers
Braid
This is art because the music is classical music, and the graphics are done with a pen. The story is something about a woman. I could not understand much of this to be honest, which makes it even more likely to be an art.

Offline Anwonu

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Re: Enemy/Boss Strategies
« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2014, 06:07:55 PM »
1st chain ball guy in Hyrule Castle: he usually defends after 4 slashes, but you can do 3 slashes + bow, then 4 more slashes. He won't defend.

Offline KingOfHeart

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Re: Enemy/Boss Strategies
« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2014, 02:17:35 AM »
Got tips for the Dark Temple boss?
I'm on Hero Mode, and I don't want to use a Fairy or healing for a boss fight, so trying to figure out how to win against him.

I use Super bombs for the first part of him and he usually goes down with at most one attack.
The second part, I don't know what to do to dodge him. In normal mode, I could take a few hits, but I can't make mistakes like before.

edit: nvm, figured it out.
For anyone who wants to know, you could do something like this.

In the first part of the boss fight, just place two bombs near the boss and he'll get hit by both.. if they're super bombs phase 1 will be over with.
When he's about to shoot spikes, if you're bad at avoiding you can just merge with the wall.

For the second phase when it goes dark, walk to the center area of the stage and walk into a circle pattern. He'll then stop, giving you time to light at least one lantern.
You can quickly try the same pattern or just merge with the wall to the other lantern. Once you strike your sword once, take a step back because he might try a bite attack.. then swing a few times.
It will go dark again, just do the same thing as before.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2014, 02:32:48 AM by KingOfHeart »

Offline Powerstar9

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Re: Enemy/Boss Strategies
« Reply #30 on: January 22, 2014, 08:03:08 PM »
Thieve's Hideout miniboss strats:
B2 Eyegore room (a little inconsistent)- place bomb and charge spin attack. unleash when eyes move, then lure them into explosion (you must take damage). Reapeat once more, then slash them if necessary.
B2 Zazak room (room leading into B3) charge 3 spin attacks next to thief girl.
btw I really hate that eyegore room. It makes or breaks my run.
"When I first discovered AS and Turtle Skip, I was like Kreygasm for 2 hours." Me from Anwonu's stream.