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Author Topic: Any% route discussion  (Read 38481 times)
kirbymastah
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Posts: 33


« Reply #30 on: December 19, 2013, 08:46:01 PM »

I created a new game file, played up that that point and timed all 3 methods this way:

Start timer when you gain control of Link after exiting Sahasrahla's house.
End timer when hitting the transition to the next screen east of Link's house.

And the results were:

Chuchu deathwarp: 30.84
Cucco deathwarp: 31.21
Walking back: 34.45

Now the reason why walking back takes so long is that you get an Irene flying cutscene when entering the blacksmith's house screen. The thing is, if you use the route that goes through the bridge east of Link's house after beating the Eastern Palace and talking to Sahasrahla in front of the castle, you do NOT get that one cutscene. You do get the cutscene where she lands and talks to you, but not the one where she just flies over. So, by deathwarping back from Kakariko, you're skipping a cutscene that lasts about 4-5 seconds. (And you're still not getting the Bell until after the Eastern Palace even if you walk and get that first cutscene.)

Did you try out the cucco method multiple times? Because there is some RNG with it involved, depending on where the cucco's attack from. I've lost about a second before from bad RNG

EDIT: Also, minor frames-saver, but upon entering Eastern Palace, when you shoot the first switch, if you're forward enough to the edge before the bridge falls down, then the falling bridge will shove link all the way left during the cutscene, saving frames I guess, since you'll be closer to the door.

EDIT2: About the strat I just posted in EDIT, just messed with it more. If you're too far off the edge, you'll clip and fall into the pit... <.<
« Last Edit: December 19, 2013, 08:51:59 PM by kirbymastah » Logged
RheaultWnage
Site Editor
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Posts: 107



« Reply #31 on: December 19, 2013, 09:23:54 PM »

My attempt at the Cucco Deathwarp seemed like a pretty good one. But I did a bunch more just now and got:

32.18
30.56
34.53
32.20
32.28
30.46


Then I redid a single run of the Chuchu Deathwarp and got 30.47. This means that the Cucco strat is at best on par with the Chuchu one, and it's more risky for a barely existant time save.
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kirbymastah
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Posts: 33


« Reply #32 on: December 20, 2013, 03:18:04 PM »

Random minor time saver: in first room of house of gales, dashing into the switch is faster than walking to it and slashing twice (dont think I've seen anyone do that)



A minor route change I've been testing was getting the silver ruppee in kakariko after the smooth gem (instead of the purple ruppee before leaving eastern palace), and then buying hookshot early before tower of hera.

Note: Small key #1 ignores small key cutscene

SMALL KEY #1 (small key on the thin bar, in 2F)

Starting from bottom-left switch, use hookshot to get the small key, then dash out of the room (dashing from top of stairs is faster than walking out):
3.475
3.525
3.532
3.514
3.456

Starting from bottom-left switch, use tornado rod from below to get small key, then walk out of the room:
5.666
5.734
5.508
5.871
5.720

So hookshot saves roughly 2 seconds. Furthermore, I think most people would take an extra second to line themselves up properly to get the small key with the tornado rod, so in a realistic case, 3 seconds.

The hookshot also helps with hitting the switch in 2F, for the giant fan. I don't really think it's faster than the spin attack trick (though it definitely isn't slower), but it eliminates the time it takes to charge your sword and is also easier too.

Finally, the hookshot can stun the double fire beast miniboss, after you take off their flames. Is it faster? Probably not faster than zander's strat, but it definitely makes it a lot easier too.

Now, where do you lose time getting hookshot early? Getting the silver ruppee in kakariko is roughly 3 seconds slower than the purple ruppee in eastern palace. There's also the time it takes to item switch too; you have to switch to hookshot upon reaching 2F, and then switch out before the boss again, which is roughly another 3 seconds gone.

So in house of gales alone, early hookshot loses 3 seconds, but makes life a lot easier too. I'm not sure how the lorule items route goes, but if having the early hookshot helps anywhere there too (or hyrule castle too!) before the next visit to ravio's, then it'll likely end up being worth getting it early.

Now, if you get the purple ruppee, and play up until death mountain weather vane, and you just so happen to have 50 extra ruppees from lucky drops, then yes, early hookshot is definitely better. But I don't think that's very likely...

Anyways, I'm going to keep going through zander's any% route, and see if hookshot has any more uses before he buys it in his route. I'll edit this post appropriately.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2013, 03:26:14 PM by kirbymastah » Logged
RheaultWnage
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Posts: 107



« Reply #33 on: December 20, 2013, 05:23:36 PM »

The hookshot also helps with hitting the switch in 2F, for the giant fan. I don't really think it's faster than the spin attack trick (though it definitely isn't slower), but it eliminates the time it takes to charge your sword and is also easier too.
The fastest method for that switch is to throw a bomb on the upper left part of the Keese, making it explode instantly and hitting the switch at the same time. If you're really fast, you could also not hit the Keese, and use the detonation time to line up your dash-slide and get across to the south part, near the fan.

So in house of gales alone, early hookshot loses 3 seconds, but makes life a lot easier too. I'm not sure how the lorule items route goes, but if having the early hookshot helps anywhere there too (or hyrule castle too!) before the next visit to ravio's, then it'll likely end up being worth getting it early.
I personally get the Hookshot after Eastern Palace, and this is how my early Lorule route goes:

Enter Lorule, Activate Blacksmith Vane
Beat Thieves
Crack to Hyrule, HP lady's house
Crack to Lorule, behind Sahasrahla's house
Beat Skull Woods
Warp to Blacksmith, walk to Vacant House, activate Vane
Crack to Hyrule, rent Fire, Ice and Sand Rods
Walk to Blacksmith, upgrade Master Sword
Warp to Death Moutain, make way to Ice Ruins.

Having the Hookshot early allows me to not have to go to Ravio's before Skull Woods and still do the Big Key room fairly quickly. It doesn't save a trip back and forth to Hyrule, and you have to go through the HP cutscene thingy in the house, so I'm not entirely sure if it's faster, but I prefer it because I like finishing off the overworld stuff all at once. I also do House Of Gales before Tower Of Hera, so all I have to do after HoG is warp to death mountain and climb it, since I already got the Flippers and Power Gloves together before. I enjoy the fast pace of the game, doing dungeon after dungeon without slowing down between them. Tongue
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kirbymastah
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Posts: 33


« Reply #34 on: December 20, 2013, 05:32:38 PM »

Yeah, I really don't think it matters whether you do tower of hera or house of gales first, because convenient warp points.

After smooth gem, pegasus boots, power gloves and death mountain weather vane:
1. Fly to Ravio's, get tornado rod, bombs, and hammer (and hookshot if you prefer)
2. Go get the pouch from the woods for the second slot

From here, you can these in any order, as long as 4 is before 5.
3. Fly to death mountain, climb it, do tower of hera
4. Fly to the potion shop, get flippers
5. Fly to ravio's, then do house of gales

There isn't anything you gain in any order you do of steps 3-5. So it really doesn't matter which dungeon you do first IMO. I personally like having a bit of overworld downtime between dungeons and having it spread out, so I prefer getting the flippers in between the two dungeons, but you can get the flippers before both dungeons, or do tower of hera after house of gales anyways.


Now, as for hookshot early for lorule, I notice that zander's current WR run doesn't get hookshot early. After thieve's hideout, he goes to the weather vane by the vacant house in lorule, uses the portal there, gets stuff from ravio, flies to kakariko, uses the portal in the back of kakariko, then does skull woods. I don't think he ever activates the weather vane by the lorule blacksmith.

As for your route, rheaultwnage, the problem is you go through a cutscene with the woman giving you a heart piece. Furthermore, you're not going to have the weather vane unlocked by the vacant house so you can't fly there conveniently after skull woods.

This'll have to be manually timed :/


PROS/CONS

Zander's Route:
+Fly straight to vacant house weather vane after skull woods
+Skip blacksmith weathervane
-Trip to ravio's after thieve's hideout

rheaultwnage's Route:
+Go straight to skull woods after thieve's hideout
-Heart Piece Woman cutscene
-After skull woods, walk from blacksmith to vacant house
« Last Edit: December 20, 2013, 05:42:00 PM by kirbymastah » Logged
RheaultWnage
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Posts: 107



« Reply #35 on: December 20, 2013, 06:00:35 PM »

This is how we could time:

My route: Time to activate a vane (with "take a break" text) + walk from HP/Portrait house, take crack, take other crack + warp from Woods to BSmith, walk to Vacant's House vane, take crack, walk to House's door and walk back to blacksmith

Zander's: Walk from Kakariko to Vacant's House vane, take crack and walk to House's door + Warp to Kakariko and take crack behind Sahasrahla's house + warp from Woods to Vacant House, take crack and walk to blacksmith.

Maybe we could take out the "walk back to blacksmith" and "walk to House's door" part since they're in both and are pretty much the same. Activating the House vane or not wouldn't matter, as long as it's the same in both timing. It would be nice to know the time it takes to activate a weather vane (Short, or long with extra take a break text).

If someone wants to time this today, go ahead. I'll do it sometime tomorrow or Sunday if not. Smiley
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kirbymastah
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Posts: 33


« Reply #36 on: December 20, 2013, 06:51:53 PM »

I just realized, it's probably better (not faster) to do tower of hera before tower of gales.

Against the boss in tower of gales, you jump into the pit intentionally at certain points so you can refill stamina, to abuse bombs/arrows more. By doing tower of hera, you have an extra heart container to use, making this easier.

Although you could say the same about the boss for tower of hera too; depends on which boss you have more trouble with, ultimately.
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RheaultWnage
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Posts: 107



« Reply #37 on: December 21, 2013, 06:41:15 PM »

I timed it and Zander's route is about 10 seconds faster.
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kirbymastah
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Posts: 33


« Reply #38 on: December 22, 2013, 02:23:10 AM »

I actually had a practice partial attempt where I got an extra 50 ruppees from lucky drops before buying bombs+tornado+hammer. If zander's route was faster by at most 3 seconds, then it'd be worth getting hookshot early and taking rheault's route; unfortunately it's not quite the case :/

Now, looking at the early hookshot route pre-Lorule, early hookshot from lucky 50 ruppees (aka no silver ruppee in kakariko) will roughly break even with non-early hookshot, and it certainly makes things a lot easier too. Up to the runner if the runner wants to add a conditional I guess, and it's rather rare to have an extra 50 ruppees too =/


Also, very minor strat but...

You know the small key you get in Ice Ruins, where you have to light four torches (with 6 green penguins) to have it fall on a higher ledge? I timed how long it takes to go from collecting the key, to the intersection of the thin bridges in the southern room.

Strat 1: After the small key, merge into the right wall, and dash down the thin bridge (Basically go back the way you came from below)
Strat 2: After the small key, immediately fall off and walk manually south until the intersection.

Strat 1 takes about 7 seconds. Strat 2 takes about 5.5 seconds, assuming there are no penguins. So strat 2 is ideally faster, but taking into account penguins, you'll probably get hit once and lose about a half second to one second. If you killed all the penguins beforehand to be safe, then yes, strat 2 is definitely faster.


LORULE ROUTING  - DUNGEON ORDER

So as of now, the starting dungeons are definitely:

1. Thieve's Hideout
2. Skull Woods
3. Ice Ruins

1+2 give you two easy master ores to temper your sword as early as possible. Thieves' hideout also gives at least 200 ruppees (more from the red statue miniboss fight), essential for purchasing the rest of ravio's stuff before skull woods.

After Ice Ruins, I checked the order of the rest of the 4 dungeons. The obvious thing is that Desert Palace must be before Swamp Palace, since the titan's mitts allow you to take the fastest route with the bomb flower. So ultimately, at a first glance, it shouldn't matter.

However, so far, I think it's fastest (by like one second) to do desert palace then dark palace right after. The reason is, at the end of desert palace, assuming you did the boss key skip, you're going to have the tornado and sand rods equipped. Both of those are needed for the stealth skip right before dark palace, skipping an item equip screen.

It's very minor, but one second can make a difference Tongue I'm not sure if when you do turtle rock / swamp palace matters (Besides desert sometime before swamp), that might just come down to preference.

So unless I'm missing something, the routes with "equal timing" for the latter half of Lorule are:

-Desert, Dark, Turtle, Swamp
-Desert, Dark, Swamp, Turtle
-Turtle, Desert, Dark, Swamp

I'm also thinking about making a pastebin of the current up-to-date route so people can reference it easily and understand why it's routed like that (along with easier options too); think I should start one up?


EDIT:

Another minor strat I want to share, in desert ruins, that won't be quite intuitive. In the room where you're supposed to spin attack the four switches, there are two beamos at the bottom. The game intends for you to raise the sand to block their laser.

An easy way to not have to raise the sand, while still going at dash speed, is after hitting all four switches, drop down, line yourself below the bottom-right switch, then just dash down. You'll bonk the wall, but upon bonking the southern wall, you'll literally jump over both beamos lasers, then you can just continue through the door.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2013, 03:06:30 AM by kirbymastah » Logged
FriiedPorkchop
Deku Scrub

Posts: 10


« Reply #39 on: December 22, 2013, 06:37:42 AM »

unless I'm missing something

After freeing Irene from her painting in Desert Palace you get more textboxes everytime you warp with her. Before Desert Palace, the broom only has one textbox while after desert palace you can get 1-3 textboxes. I dont know how much time this actually wastes but its probably not optimal to do Desert Palace as soon as possible.
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kirbymastah
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Posts: 33


« Reply #40 on: December 22, 2013, 07:21:15 PM »

Ah, I never thought about that. Altough the extra textbox doesn't cost up to a second each, so I still figure doing dark right after desert would be faster by frames Tongue

So probably this order would be the best for now:

1. Thieves Hideout
2. Skull Woods
3. Ice Ruins
4. Turtle Rock
5. Desert Palace
6. Dark Palace
7. Swamp Palace
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Bamboocha
Deku Scrub

Posts: 6


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« Reply #41 on: December 22, 2013, 09:55:15 PM »

I would recommend doing Swamp before Turtle Rock because of two reasons.

Turtle Rock can be a bit risky without blue mail mainly because of the boss fight since you have to take damage from him to be fast when he spins and you can get hit when trying to be fast doing his normal 2nd phase.

After Swamp you can run to the Portal at your house and go to Turtle Rock which should be about 2 seconds faster than running to Lorule castle after Swamp and teleporting to your house to take the portal and go to Turtle Rock.
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kirbymastah
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Posts: 33


« Reply #42 on: December 22, 2013, 10:29:02 PM »

That's a good point actually, didn't think about that Tongue Forgot that swamp is so close to the vacant house in Lorule =x

Also, I saw in zander's WR video that he just walks everywhere with the bomb flower. To speed this up a bit, you can use the hookshot on fences and bushes, andthe bomb flower won't be left behind. (And you want hookshot equipped to enter swamp palace anyways)

Example: Right when you start leading the bomb flower, hookshotting down is about 0.5 seconds faster.

Example 2: The screen after lifting the giant boulder, you can space a hookshot at a single push near the left side to go across the screen vertically very quickly

I'd put up a video but no webcam nor 3dscapture at the moment Sad
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RheaultWnage
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« Reply #43 on: December 22, 2013, 10:58:02 PM »

There is one thing I forgot to take into account when I timed the difference between my early Lorule route and Zander's. Warping to the Blacksmith before going to buy the Big Bomb for Swamp Palace is either 5 or 10 seconds faster than warping to Vacant House. I am not sure if, when you warp there, you get the text from the Blacksmith asking you to show him your sword or not. (Which takes 5 seconds) You do get the text when you walk by that screen, and I suppose you also get it when you warp, because you'll just walk out and probably activate it, but I haven't tested it.

If you do not get the text though, the fastest route would be to use Zander's, activate the Blacksmith's vane when you first reach Lorule (Long text activation, takes 9.3 seconds, but then the Vacant House would become a slow text activation, going from 9.3 to 6.5 seconds, so activating Blacksmith would add 6.5 seconds) and then use it when you're about to do Swamp. So you save about 10-6.5=3.5 seconds. (Lol) But I'm pretty sure you get the text anyway, so that would be 5-6.5 = 1.5 seconds slower.
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Bamboocha
Deku Scrub

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« Reply #44 on: December 22, 2013, 11:08:05 PM »

Yes, you do get the text when you warp there.
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