Author Topic: Any% route discussion  (Read 33837 times)

Offline kirbymastah

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Re: [SPOILERS] - Any% route
« Reply #40 on: December 22, 2013, 11:21:15 AM »
Ah, I never thought about that. Altough the extra textbox doesn't cost up to a second each, so I still figure doing dark right after desert would be faster by frames :P

So probably this order would be the best for now:

1. Thieves Hideout
2. Skull Woods
3. Ice Ruins
4. Turtle Rock
5. Desert Palace
6. Dark Palace
7. Swamp Palace

Offline Bamboocha

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Re: [SPOILERS] - Any% route
« Reply #41 on: December 22, 2013, 01:55:15 PM »
I would recommend doing Swamp before Turtle Rock because of two reasons.

Turtle Rock can be a bit risky without blue mail mainly because of the boss fight since you have to take damage from him to be fast when he spins and you can get hit when trying to be fast doing his normal 2nd phase.

After Swamp you can run to the Portal at your house and go to Turtle Rock which should be about 2 seconds faster than running to Lorule castle after Swamp and teleporting to your house to take the portal and go to Turtle Rock.

Offline kirbymastah

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Re: [SPOILERS] - Any% route
« Reply #42 on: December 22, 2013, 02:29:02 PM »
That's a good point actually, didn't think about that :P Forgot that swamp is so close to the vacant house in Lorule =x

Also, I saw in zander's WR video that he just walks everywhere with the bomb flower. To speed this up a bit, you can use the hookshot on fences and bushes, andthe bomb flower won't be left behind. (And you want hookshot equipped to enter swamp palace anyways)

Example: Right when you start leading the bomb flower, hookshotting down is about 0.5 seconds faster.

Example 2: The screen after lifting the giant boulder, you can space a hookshot at a single push near the left side to go across the screen vertically very quickly

I'd put up a video but no webcam nor 3dscapture at the moment :(

Offline RheaultWnage

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Re: [SPOILERS] - Any% route
« Reply #43 on: December 22, 2013, 02:58:02 PM »
There is one thing I forgot to take into account when I timed the difference between my early Lorule route and Zander's. Warping to the Blacksmith before going to buy the Big Bomb for Swamp Palace is either 5 or 10 seconds faster than warping to Vacant House. I am not sure if, when you warp there, you get the text from the Blacksmith asking you to show him your sword or not. (Which takes 5 seconds) You do get the text when you walk by that screen, and I suppose you also get it when you warp, because you'll just walk out and probably activate it, but I haven't tested it.

If you do not get the text though, the fastest route would be to use Zander's, activate the Blacksmith's vane when you first reach Lorule (Long text activation, takes 9.3 seconds, but then the Vacant House would become a slow text activation, going from 9.3 to 6.5 seconds, so activating Blacksmith would add 6.5 seconds) and then use it when you're about to do Swamp. So you save about 10-6.5=3.5 seconds. (Lol) But I'm pretty sure you get the text anyway, so that would be 5-6.5 = 1.5 seconds slower.

Offline Bamboocha

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Re: [SPOILERS] - Any% route
« Reply #44 on: December 22, 2013, 03:08:05 PM »
Yes, you do get the text when you warp there.

Offline kirbymastah

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Re: [SPOILERS] - Any% route
« Reply #45 on: December 23, 2013, 02:51:38 PM »
Interesting, since you do get the text. Then that means using rhealt's route is about 1.5 seconds faster than zander's route.

However (correct me if I'm wrong), this is 1.5 seconds faster for the route starting upon entering Lorule, correct? Using rhealt's route requires having hookshot early, which costs 3 seconds (vs. getting hookshot in Lorule) pre-Lorule, assuming you get the kakariko silver rupee. So ultimately, rhealt's route is ~1.5 seconds slower?

It might be worth using rhealt's route anyways, since it frees up an extra 50 rupees to save for the bomb flower in Lorule. It's uncommon, but it does happen that you don't get enough total rupees in Lorule to buy hookshot+ice+fire+sand rods, and also the bomb flower. If we have an extra 50 rupees, it also means we can be a bit more lenient on skipping tiny detours for rupees in Lorule dungeons?

I'm not sure if anyone's specifically written out a rupee route for Lorule. But I do think hookshot early is worth the safety of 1.5 seconds ultimately.


SIDE TOPIC: THIEVES' HIDEOUT STRATS

So when watching zander's current record, I noticed that he manually slashes every enemy. I'm pretty sure that, since bombs/bow are already equipped for majority of thieves' hideout anyways, it'd save time to use them.

The first encounter with the four blue enemies, I plant a bomb right when they fall from the ceiling, then go for the left guy while the other three walk into the bomb. Not sure if that's really worth it, since bombs do only 3 damage (master sword does 2) =/

Something I DO know for sure that's faster, though, is the forced fight with two blue enemies, in the room with the three switches (room before the boss key room). Immediately upon the two guys falling, I drop a bomb in the center, go for the right guy while the left walks into the bomb, then ideally you'd fire 4 arrows to finish off the left guy, so you don't have to bother going up close to him. It's pretty difficult though, and I'll have to see if there's a consistent way; an easier method would probably be slash him around 2-3 times then snipe him from far away, so you're close to the door.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2013, 02:54:54 PM by kirbymastah »

Offline RheaultWnage

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Re: [SPOILERS] - Any% route
« Reply #46 on: December 23, 2013, 04:04:34 PM »
No, Zander's current route is the fastest one of those we mentionned. The text I was talking about is the one you get from the Lorule Blacksmith after you've upgraded to the Tempered Sword. Zander's route doesn't get that text, since he doesn't pass by the Lorule Blacksmith after he's upgraded the sword once, only before.

Now, I previously timed that Zander's route was about 10 seconds faster than mine, but I didn't include that warp difference. The walk is abuot 10 seconds shorter in my route, which would lead to both routes being pretty much the "same" time. But since we my route gets that extra text, it is effectively 5 seconds slower than Zander's.

The thing is, even if we could skip that text from the Blacksmith, my route still wouldn't be the fastest, because you could just take Zander's route and add the Blacksmith Weather Vane activation when you first reach Lorule (adds 6.5 seconds to his route) and then warp there before Swamp (would take 10 seconds off his route if we didn't get the text, but actually only removes 5 seconds.)

Personally, I'll keep on getting the 100 Rupee chest in Kakariko instead of the 50 one in Eastern Palace, because I've gotten used to having the Hookshot in House Of Gales. As for Lorule, I used to get 450 in Thieves Hideout (100 from miniboss, 200 from Master Ore path, 100+50 from chests) but watching other people play made me realise that the 150 from chests is pretty useless, since you'll most likely come by more than enough to make up for it. (Especially with Gemesaur King dropping a bunch) Heck, I even finished my run with 470 something rupees left at Yuganon hahaha.

As for those blue guys in Thieves, the first encounter is pretty damn annoying, but for that last one in the switches room, I go for the right one first, trap him in the top right corner just above the door, then wait like a second for the other one to get through the "passage" in the wall and trap him in the top left corner (where you would merge to get past the bars and reach the 3rd switch). I honestly don't know if it's faster or not, but at least I don't have to run after them, and I finish off the last one close to the door.

Offline kirbymastah

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Re: [SPOILERS] - Any% route
« Reply #47 on: December 23, 2013, 08:50:18 PM »
Yeah in terms of rupee route in Lorule, you need 400 total. You get an easy 200 while getting thieves' hideout master ore, usually 100 from the miniboss fight in the same dungeon,and many, many in dark palace (also 35 easy ones in desert palace).

I guess having hookshot for gales is up to personal preference. Ultimately slower, but not by much, and really comes down to comfort :P I'm used to not having hookshot so I'll keep leaving it for Lorule.

So ultimately, we want to activate the weather vane by the blacksmith upon entering Lorule, then warp there before doing skull woods.

I think I'll start writing up a pastebin tonight with the route so far, of course updating it when appropriate. It'll be nice to have it documented somewhere? I can only imagine how annoying it'd be since bits and pieces are all over the forums... <_<
« Last Edit: December 23, 2013, 09:05:20 PM by kirbymastah »

Offline RheaultWnage

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Re: [SPOILERS] - Any% route
« Reply #48 on: December 23, 2013, 11:52:21 PM »
So ultimately, we want to activate the weather vane by the blacksmith upon entering Lorule, then warp there before doing skull woods.
Hum I'm not sure I get you there. Why would you warp to the blacksmith before doing Skull Woods? As of now, you complete Thieves, walk to Vacant House, activate that Vane, use the portal to Hyrule, rent the items, Warp to Kakariko and use the portal to Lorule behind Sahasrahla's.

If you meant before Swamp Palace, then not activating Blacksmith's and using Vacant House's is still faster.

So no, we currently shouldn't activate the blacksmith's vane. That is, unless we end up modifying some other stuff in the route, then we would have to reconsider.

Offline Bamboocha

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Re: [SPOILERS] - Any% route
« Reply #49 on: December 24, 2013, 05:29:36 AM »
What I do is get Hookshot early and buy the other items after thieve's. I don't really get hookshot early because of small timesavers but mainly because I have the money for it. I feel like the safest/fastest rupee route is both 100 in eastern, 100 in Kakariko and get the rest from random and guaranteed drops. So far it has only been close 1 time but you can always just kill 2 of the 20 rupee guys near vacant house before paying for the bomb flower if you don't have enough.

Offline kirbymastah

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Re: [SPOILERS] - Any% route
« Reply #50 on: December 24, 2013, 07:40:10 AM »
Hum I'm not sure I get you there. Why would you warp to the blacksmith before doing Skull Woods? As of now, you complete Thieves, walk to Vacant House, activate that Vane, use the portal to Hyrule, rent the items, Warp to Kakariko and use the portal to Lorule behind Sahasrahla's.

If you meant before Swamp Palace, then not activating Blacksmith's and using Vacant House's is still faster.

So no, we currently shouldn't activate the blacksmith's vane. That is, unless we end up modifying some other stuff in the route, then we would have to reconsider.

Yeah I meant swamp palace <_< my bad

Offline Anwonu

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Re: Any% route discussion
« Reply #51 on: January 04, 2014, 07:35:47 AM »
Here's my route in case someone's interested. http://pastebin.com/GuDhad4M
Not detailed, covers mostly important items and rupees.
One thing I'm not sure yet is if I activate vacant house vane before or after swamp. Before has the troll enemy on ramp; after has the take a break message.

About ToH first: from what I understand, the route is something like (after getting smooth gem):
-go to Rosso, get power gloves
-go to Death Mountain, activate vane
-fly to house, rent items
-go southwest, get pouch
-fly back to death mountain, go to ToH, beat it
-fly to witch's house, get flippers
-fly to house, go to HoG, beat it

HoG first (my route, at least):
-go south, get pouch
-fly to witch's house, get flippers
-fly to house, rent items
-go to HoG, beat it
-fly to kakariko, go to Rosso, get power gloves
-go to death mountain, activate vane
-keep going, beat ToH

From what I see, the differences are: route to pouch (from house is ~3s faster), to Rosso (1-2s difference? Instead of going from the shady guy, it's from the vane), the posssibility of breaking rocks on the way to ToH with hammer (a bit faster than lifting rocks in one place?) and 1 extra fly in ToH first route. Because of that extra fly, I believe HoG first is faster (a fly adds about 11s, the other differences doesn't seem to overcome that much). Or am I missing something else?

Offline kirbymastah

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Re: Any% route discussion
« Reply #52 on: January 04, 2014, 06:40:25 PM »
That seems to make sense. Assuming your timing is accurate, cutting out an extra Irene flight shaves off quite a few seconds.



Now, I know I've mentioned this in your stream, but the questionable route is doing swamp palace so early. The main thing is, at least from watching your ALBW streams, you go out of your way for rupees pretty often (out of your way as in, treasure chests that are in the way... but they still cost time) since you need the 500 total rupees in Lorule a lot earlier (as opposed to doing swamp palace 2nd to last). Whereas if you do swamp palace 2nd to last (then turtle rock last), then you have plenty of time to get free rupees, primarily from desert palace and dark palace's boss.

Furthermore, lack of lvl 2 master sword loses time in swamp palace, though it's not as big of a deal as the rupee issue.

Finally, your skull woods 2nd route requires doing early hookshot, which loses a few seconds in the first Hyrule part of the game.

Also, is there any reason for doing desert palace so late?
« Last Edit: January 04, 2014, 06:42:11 PM by kirbymastah »

Offline Anwonu

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Re: Any% route discussion
« Reply #53 on: January 04, 2014, 08:10:18 PM »
All the points are what makes me think the route isn't the best; not only those, but the fact that the vacant house is so close to swamp makes the bomb flower path irrelevant (you'd use the path and activate it while bringing the bomb). Still, I have this route memorized now, and I want to improve it as much as I can so that we can compare later with other routes.

About desert, no reason to do it earlier, since it may make Irene talk more when warping. The main reason desert was done early was because of Titan's Mitts for swamp.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2014, 11:58:28 PM by Anwonu »

Offline RheaultWnage

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Re: Any% route discussion
« Reply #54 on: January 05, 2014, 01:24:48 PM »
I always do the Swamp Palace after Thieves, and I never have problems with my Rupees actually. I even finish Thieves' with roughly 510-550 rupees.
Thing is, if you don't do Swamp as early, you can skip the 100 and 50 rupees chests in Thieves, and instead gather those rupees along the way (from Gemesaur, on the ground in Desert Palace, etc.)

The difference between Anwonu's Lorule route and any other route seems like it would be really hard to time. I might give it some thoughts in the next few days, see if I can figure something out.

Offline Anwonu

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Re: Any% route discussion
« Reply #55 on: January 05, 2014, 10:20:55 PM »
OK, so, I tried a thieves-skull-ice route, to see how far it would be from my PB.
Here's the route: http://pastebin.com/Ede39Liz
The video: http://www.twitch.tv/anwonu/c/3503311
tl;dr: no hookshot early; thieves, skull, ice, desert, dark, swamp, turtle.

Besides the huge mistake (got wrong exit in lost woods, wasn't paying attention >_>), all the other mistakes were pretty much on par with my PB, I think. The lost woods derp wasted about 50s, which totally cancels with the extra time at the end.
If anyone is willing to check this and my PB to check where I lose time and give an idea of which route is better, good luck =p
For now, I'd say both routes are close, surprisingly.

Edit: ah yes, I forgot to ask something that I actually wasn't sure: is the vacant house vane activated after thieves, like I did? I didn't see any other chance to do that.
Edit2: maybe comparing isn't that bad if someone's willing to time all my chokes =p; I don't remember how manu chokes my PB has. My memory is horrible, even forgot how derpy my eastern was in this run =p


Unrelated edit: someone who does/did ToH first: when you activate the vane in death mountain, do you get the "take a break" message? If not, then I guess that's one more plus to ToH first, making both routes closer. (Even if you receive later, I believe it's the only time you get it; in HoG first, you get the message twice over the run.)
« Last Edit: January 05, 2014, 10:48:08 PM by Anwonu »

Offline RheaultWnage

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Re: Any% route discussion
« Reply #56 on: January 05, 2014, 11:01:43 PM »
Unrelated edit: someone who does/did ToH first: when you activate the vane in death mountain, do you get the "take a break" message? If not, then I guess that's one more plus to ToH first, making both routes closer. (Even if you receive later, I believe it's the only time you get it; in HoG first, you get the message twice over the run.)
If you do ToH first you don't get the long text in Death Mountain, and you get it at Vacant House.

If you do HoG first, you get the long text in Death Mountain. Then, you don't get it at Vacant if 1. you activate it when renting items between Thieves and Skulls or 2. you activate while bringing the big bomb between Thieves and Swamp. You do get it if you activate it after finishing Swamp (as 2nd palace in Lorule).

Offline Anwonu

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Re: Any% route discussion
« Reply #57 on: January 05, 2014, 11:17:10 PM »
Hm, true, you only get once unless you use my route and activate after swamp. So ToH first loses that advantage, I guess.

Offline ExtraTricky

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Re: Any% route discussion
« Reply #58 on: January 13, 2014, 06:56:24 AM »
A good number of the active runners saw my recent run where I used a new route. The dungeon order is Thieves Skull Swamp Dark Turtle Desert Ice. You take the bomb flower immediately after Thieves and hit the Vacant House weathervane during that sequence. The other big idea here is that Desert -> Ice saves a fly because you spawn right next to a portal after Desert. The existing routes save this fly by doing Ice immediately after upgrading, since you're at Hyrule blacksmith, but this provides an alternative for people who aren't confident with doing Ice with green mail. Additionally, since you do Ice last and with blue mail (if you're skipping blue mail then swamp third doesn't make sense), it's more likely that you can forgo the fairy fountain entirely, which is quite a large advantage. Dark and Turtle can be done in either order -- I didn't see any advantage either way.

Offline Koizata

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Re: Any% route discussion
« Reply #59 on: January 13, 2014, 07:09:32 AM »
Additionally, since you do Ice last and with blue mail (if you're skipping blue mail then swamp third doesn't make sense), it's more likely that you can forgo the fairy fountain entirely, which is quite a large advantage. Dark and Turtle can be done in either order -- I didn't see any advantage either way.

tbh i havent seen anyone do swamp third if they want to do it early its best they do it 2nd. If they are doing 3rd Ice than doing swamp last or second to last would be the better choice

Offline ExtraTricky

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Re: Any% route discussion
« Reply #60 on: January 14, 2014, 12:29:24 AM »
I haven't timed very closely, but I believe that having tempered sword in swamp is better than the less movement from doing swamp second.

Offline kirbymastah

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Re: Any% route discussion
« Reply #61 on: January 18, 2014, 07:32:38 PM »
Bombflower escort strat pre-Swamp Palace.



Hookshot down from this spot.



Hookshot down-right here. This is pretty lenient and you can usually do it without adjusting your position after the screen transition.



Hookshot down-right here. There's a flower I'm standing on as a visual cue.



Hookshot down. This one's rather risky since there can be a spear-throwing enemy in a position to snipe you, but i've never actually gotten hit by it yet.

Offline KingOfHeart

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Re: Any% route discussion
« Reply #62 on: February 04, 2014, 07:48:02 AM »
Go buy Big Bomb (200 rupees, kill red Moblins if needed)
^ I read this in the any% faqs. So buying it for 200 rupees is truly faster then skipping paying the guy?

Offline kirbymastah

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Re: Any% route discussion
« Reply #63 on: February 04, 2014, 09:57:43 AM »
From the video I watched on ZSR, the set-up for skipping the bomb takes really freaking long, and basically all the rupees you get in Lorule dungeons cost basically no time at all.