Author Topic: Organizing things (OoT Site)  (Read 11425 times)

Offline mzxrules

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Organizing things (OoT Site)
« on: October 31, 2013, 12:39:08 AM »
So I've talked a little about this with Nate and I want to share more about how feel the Ocarina of Time site should be organized.

One of the problems that is going on right now with the Ocarina of Time site is that there are so many tricks and so many pages that we need to work out a system of keeping things organized so that tricks are easier to find, and setups are not duplicated across multiple pages.

The way I see it, I feel like we should try to organize tricks by the location (the scene) they are performed in.

Take a trick like entering the Forest Temple without the hookshot for example. There are two ways to do that: you can either enter from sacred forest meadow, or you can utilize wrong warp. The setup for entering from Sacred Forest Meadow should be stored on the  http://zeldaspeedruns.com/oot/region/sacred-forest-meadow page since the trick starts in a single scene, while the wrong warp setup would be stored on a wrong warp page since such a wrong warp can start in a few different scenes.

Then in the Forest Temple page, you could link back to these two pages since they are relevant to the forest temple page.

However, I also feel that pages like Forest Escape would suffer since every trick listed within that page would end up being moved out, meaning most of the content of the page ends up being links.

Thoughts?
« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 12:41:57 AM by mzxrules »
Quote from:  Leigh Rogers
Braid
This is art because the music is classical music, and the graphics are done with a pen. The story is something about a woman. I could not understand much of this to be honest, which makes it even more likely to be an art.

Offline nathanisbored

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Re: Organizing things (OoT Site)
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2013, 08:33:35 AM »
Maybe setups that are specific to an area and NOT already on another page with more value. Like you said, Wrong Warp page is more valuable for storing info on Wrong Warp to Forest, but it can still be referenced on the Forest Temple Page. I also think the Forest Escape page is more valuable for listing info on the forest escapes, but each setup can still be referenced on the page for the scene it takes place in.

Basically, choose whichever page the setup has more value in, and then put the setup on that page (but still reference it (and link to it) on other relevant pages). There might be cases where it isn't clear which page is better though, I'm not really sure. Where should Fishing Pond Early go for example? Does it deserve its own page? It probably has more value on the BA section than it does on the Lake Hylia page at least.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 08:42:00 AM by nathanisbored »

Offline nathanisbored

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Re: Organizing things (OoT Site)
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2014, 10:43:40 PM »
I want to change a lot of things with the BA section:

1. Update and move Swordless Link page to BA section. This page will have info on the different methods of achieving blank B, the utility of blank B, and any side effects. I'm working on this page atm. Maybe Unrestricted Items could have it's own (technique?) page, since it's technically not exclusive to swordless link thanks to wrong warp/underwater Down A.

2. Change "Windy B" page to "Ingo's Minigame" page. Include info on getting stick on B from entering, info on getting swordless from exiting,  info on dying/returning to FW inside the corral, info on windy B (including new info like temp B stuff from the ganon fight). Possibly link to Epona Early page, explaining that the minigame is not necessary to get Epona. Maybe info on the race, idk.

3. Make Stick on B page. The main reason for this is that it is one of the few items that you can get on B without doing BA, and there's a page for every other one (except kokiri sword as adult). Info about N64/iQue crash here, what you might use stick on B for (other than RBA of course), other relevant info.

4. Change "Minigame items on B" to "Keeping Items on B". Include info on Temp B, what happens to non-sword items upon death/savewarp/etc. Explain how the Sword Flag affects things. Explain under what conditions Temp B will be restored to the B button. Effectively this would be a Temp B page (it practically already is), but it wouldn't be called that because people who want this sort of info wouldn't think to look under a page called "temp b" if they know nothing about it. This would have been a useful page when Moltov was routing All Dungeons with RBA.

5. Change "Quickswap Sword Deletion" to "Sword Oddities". Include info on the Sword Flag, what happens to highlighted sword items when you savewarp with a non-sword item on B (sword deletion/creation), Maybe reference things like dying in post Ganondorf rooms which always puts MS on B. Explain that MS is not put back in the inventory after a savewarp on 1.0. Explain what happens to MS when you enter the Ganon fight initial cutscene. Other relevant info.

6. Remove Odd Potion BA page. Move versatility info to the Bottle Adventure page instead. Also link to a new (technique?) page called "Trade Item Duplication" which would explain how to get Odd Potion on C as child.

7. Child BA page? This may not be necessary, as this info could probably just be added to the BA page.

8. Make "Special Items on B" page. List and include info on any item that has notable effects/differences when on the B button. Info on trying to BA minigame items would go here. Info on the versatility of FW on B would go here. Info on Sold Out on B would go here. Info on Unlimited Big Poes would go here. List or reference also Blank B (link to swordless link page), Stick on B (link to page), bottle on B (link to page). Explain that trade items are not removed from B when you trade them. Include the item value for each item listed on this page.

9. Move Fishing Pond Early page to a different section (Lake Hylia area strategies?). Instead link to this page on the Steal the Fishing Rod page and possibly the Bottle on B page (people reading this page would want to know this if they plan to use the fishing pond method).

10. Remove "Lift the Archery Guy" page. This information belongs in the Upgrade Oddities page.

Feedback? I feel like most pages in this section are currently not visited because of how it's organized, including the "Minigame Items on B" page, which probably any speedrunner should visit since it's an important thing to know for RBA/BA related stuff. Cloudmax said awhile back the page was very enlightening to him, but he never knew it existed because the title of the page was misleading. I just think this section could use an overhaul.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2014, 11:24:40 PM by nathanisbored »

Offline mzxrules

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Re: Organizing things (OoT Site)
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2014, 01:57:55 AM »
1. Update and move Swordless Link page to BA section.

Quote
3. Make Stick on B page. The main reason for this is that it is one of the few items that you can get on B without doing BA, and there's a page for every other one (except kokiri sword as adult). Info about N64/iQue crash here, what you might use stick on B for (other than RBA of course), other relevant info.

Quote
8. Make "Special Items on B" page. List and include info on any item that has notable effects/differences when on the B button. Info on trying to BA minigame items would go here. Info on the versatility of FW on B would go here. Info on Sold Out on B would go here. Info on Unlimited Big Poes would go here. List or reference also Blank B (link to swordless link page), Stick on B (link to page), bottle on B (link to page). Explain that trade items are not removed from B when you trade them. Include the item value for each item listed on this page.

So there will be Blank, Stick, Bottle on B pages, then the rest will be covered in Special Items on B? I think that could work.

Quote
Unrestricted Items could have it's own (technique?) page
Yes. Should definitely be put under techniques.

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2. Change "Windy B" page to "Ingo's Minigame" page. Include info on getting stick on B from entering, info on getting swordless from exiting,  info on dying/returning to FW inside the corral, info on windy B (including new info like temp B stuff from the ganon fight). Possibly link to Epona Early page, explaining that the minigame is not necessary to get Epona. Maybe info on the race, idk.
I don't like the Windy B terminology because starting the mini-game is what causes the hud's state change. Not sure if it should just be a Lon Lon Ranch page.

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4. Change "Minigame items on B" to "Keeping Items on B". Include info on Temp B, what happens to non-sword items upon death/savewarp/etc. Explain how the Sword Flag affects things. Explain under what conditions Temp B will be restored to the B button. Effectively this would be a Temp B page (it practically already is), but it wouldn't be called that because people who want this sort of info wouldn't think to look under a page called "temp b" if they know nothing about it. This would have been a useful page when Moltov was routing All Dungeons with RBA.

I like the name change/broader focus. Sounds good.

Quote
5. Change "Quickswap Sword Deletion" to "Sword Oddities". Include info on the Sword Flag, what happens to highlighted sword items when you savewarp with a non-sword item on B (sword deletion/creation), Maybe reference things like dying in post Ganondorf rooms which always puts MS on B. Explain that MS is not put back in the inventory after a savewarp on 1.0. Explain what happens to MS when you enter the Ganon fight initial cutscene. Other relevant info.

Sounds good.

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6. Remove Odd Potion BA page. Move versatility info to the Bottle Adventure page instead.
Sound's good.

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Also link to a new (technique?) page called "Trade Item Duplication" which would explain how to get Odd Potion on C as child.
Don't forget to add Broken Goron's Sword, check the R&D thread.

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7. Child BA page? This may not be necessary, as this info could probably just be added to the BA page.
There isn't a whole lot that is radically different about child BA, at least nothing known so far. The only difference really is what scene setups / npcs are accessible.

Quote
9. Move Fishing Pond Early page to a different section (Lake Hylia area strategies?). Instead link to this page on the Steal the Fishing Rod page and possibly the Bottle on B page (people reading this page would want to know this if they plan to use the fishing pond method).

Yea, that fits into that sort of thing.

Quote
10. Remove "Lift the Archery Guy" page. This information belongs in the Upgrade Oddities page.
Agreed
Quote from:  Leigh Rogers
Braid
This is art because the music is classical music, and the graphics are done with a pen. The story is something about a woman. I could not understand much of this to be honest, which makes it even more likely to be an art.

Offline nathanisbored

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Re: Organizing things (OoT Site)
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2014, 02:56:46 AM »
I don't like the Windy B terminology because starting the mini-game is what causes the hud's state change. Not sure if it should just be a Lon Lon Ranch page.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. I'm not really worried about the title of the page atm, so it can probably be changed if need be.

Anyway, I updated the Swordless Link page, although it's kinda badly written because I'm tired. Maybe I'll work on more of these pages tomorrow or something.

Offline Razor7581

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Re: Organizing things (OoT Site)
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2014, 08:35:57 AM »
Take a trick like entering the Forest Temple without the hookshot for example. There are two ways to do that
Actually three: you can use hovering as well (but does anyone still do that?).

I think there should definitely be a link to "Adult Reset" on the DoT Skip page. Looking at the "Neutral Roll" page, I was wondering if maybe there should be a new page created under under "General Knowledge" that talks about set-ups and certain movement that is used in different set-ups (like neutral rolls), etc. Maybe that's a bit much? I definitely agree that the pages could use more hyperlinks, since OoT is such a huge section which such a large amount of content.

Also, I hate seeing pages or explanations of complicated tricks that only contain a couple sentences, one of which is usually something along the lines of "refer to video." It's not like there aren't hundreds upon hundreds of speedrunners who play OoT and know all the ins-and-outs of all of these tricks: what frames to look for (maybe including some pictures?), what to look out for, things commonly done wrong, backup strats, windows on certain tricks, things you can do to make it easier, etc.
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Offline nathanisbored

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Re: Organizing things (OoT Site)
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2014, 09:57:55 AM »
I definitely agree that the pages could use more hyperlinks, since OoT is such a huge section which such a large amount of content.

Completely agree. I see a lot of pages that reiterate information instead of linking to the page that explains it.

And yeah, setups are something that could use a lot of work. It would also probably be a good idea to have multiple setups for certain things (For CS skips alone you could have "initial position" setup, backup setup, easy (marathon safe) setup, setup that allows you to grab the heart container, bomb OI setup (lol), setup that doesn't use a deku nut (for ganondoor)). You don't have to list EVERY known method, just ones that have some sort of advantage over another. Whichever is the optimal known version of each setup would be listed.

And setups should never be in paragraph form. This is hard to follow.

Offline Razor7581

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Re: Organizing things (OoT Site)
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2014, 12:55:32 PM »
Completely agree. I see a lot of pages that reiterate information instead of linking to the page that explains it.
I don't think there's a problem with a little reiteration here and there though, as only having hyperlinks could lead to some sloppy looking pages.
Rescue Tetra before FF1: is new to me. Did you just find this out?

Offline mzxrules

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Re: Organizing things (OoT Site)
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2014, 01:53:02 PM »
Also, I hate seeing pages or explanations of complicated tricks that only contain a couple sentences, one of which is usually something along the lines of "refer to video." It's not like there aren't hundreds upon hundreds of speedrunners who play OoT and know all the ins-and-outs of all of these tricks: what frames to look for (maybe including some pictures?), what to look out for, things commonly done wrong, backup strats, windows on certain tricks, things you can do to make it easier, etc.

I do that on occasion because it's better to know that a trick exists than to not show it because I can't explain how. There are hundreds of OoT runners, but not many seem willing to edit the site.
Quote from:  Leigh Rogers
Braid
This is art because the music is classical music, and the graphics are done with a pen. The story is something about a woman. I could not understand much of this to be honest, which makes it even more likely to be an art.

Offline nathanisbored

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Re: Organizing things (OoT Site)
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2014, 02:44:57 PM »
I don't think there's a problem with a little reiteration here and there though, as only having hyperlinks could lead to some sloppy looking pages.

Yeah I know what you mean, as long as you're just summarizing it.

Offline mzxrules

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Re: Organizing things (OoT Site)
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2014, 01:10:21 AM »
Merged the ZL oddities pages and the Shadow/Spirit Medallion pages into one Quest Oddities page, and moved Items and Power-ups up on the list.

Edit:

Fixed a number of broken links. Also, would this be a good way to organize the categories?

 ROUTES
 GENERAL KNOWLEDGE
 TECHNIQUES
 DUNGEON STRATEGIES
 DUNGEON STRATEGIES: MASTER QUEST
 BOSSES
 AREA TRICKS & STRATEGIES
 MAJOR SEQUENCE BREAKS
 BOTTLE ADVENTURE
 WRONG WARPING
 SKIPPING ITEMS
 EARLY ITEMS
 GENERAL SPEED TRICKS
 MISCELLANEOUS
« Last Edit: January 11, 2014, 03:56:45 AM by mzxrules »
Quote from:  Leigh Rogers
Braid
This is art because the music is classical music, and the graphics are done with a pen. The story is something about a woman. I could not understand much of this to be honest, which makes it even more likely to be an art.

Offline Razor7581

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Re: Organizing things (OoT Site)
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2014, 08:17:42 AM »
Merged the ZL oddities pages and the Shadow/Spirit Medallion pages into one Quest Oddities page, and moved Items and Power-ups up on the list.

Edit:

Fixed a number of broken links. Also, would this be a good way to organize the categories?

 ROUTES
 GENERAL KNOWLEDGE
 TECHNIQUES
 DUNGEON STRATEGIES
 DUNGEON STRATEGIES: MASTER QUEST
 BOSSES
 AREA TRICKS & STRATEGIES
 MAJOR SEQUENCE BREAKS
 BOTTLE ADVENTURE
 WRONG WARPING
 SKIPPING ITEMS
 EARLY ITEMS
 GENERAL SPEED TRICKS
 MISCELLANEOUS
I think general speed tricks should come either right before, or right after area tricks & strategies. I also think that some of the pages that are under general speed tricks should be merged with other pages, rather than having their own. KEEP THE MASTER SWORD DURING GANON FIGHT could just be put on a page devoted to boss strategies for Ganon. CROSS GERUDO BRIDGE WITHOUT EPONA/LONGSHOT could instead be put on an area tricks & strategies page for Gerudo Valley (could also include tricks for heart pieces, a link to Cucco jump stuff, something about clip OoB at bottom to get back to top quickly, etc.). General Speed Tricks should pertain more to general tricks that aren't particular to a certain area (does that make sense?).

Also, who got rid of the word "strategies" after "dungeons?" I think it looks a bit sloppy like that. Maybe also call "Bosses" page "Boss Strategies" instead?

Oh, and somebody really needs to actually right a page for "Beat Ganon as a Child," since it's one of the most used tricks in OoT and tons of newcomers want to know how to do it and can't find a page that actually has high quality descriptions and explanations.
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Offline nathanisbored

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Re: Organizing things (OoT Site)
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2014, 11:53:43 AM »
Oh, and somebody really needs to actually right a page for "Beat Ganon as a Child," since it's one of the most used tricks in OoT and tons of newcomers want to know how to do it and can't find a page that actually has high quality descriptions and explanations.
I think that would most fit under one of the wrong warp pages.

I also noticed there's a page for Getting Master Sword on B as Child (which is outdated since wrong warp). Well, we now know it's possible to get BGS on B as Child (even without Bottle Adventure), and we know it's possible to get Kokiri Sword on B as Adult without Bottle Adventure, so maybe all 3 of those could be on the same page. I'm not really sure where else this info would go, since it's technically not a BA effect.

EDIT: I forgot "Beat Ganon as Child" is already a page in the Major Seq Breaks section. In that case, I agree that a page definitely needs to be written for that. If not just for the wrong warp, then maybe strategies for beating him as child or something.

I also think wrong warping to credits deserves its own Major Seq Breaks page.

EDIT: I'm also not sure how "major" Trials Skip is... If skipping half the dungeon is major, then every BK skip would go in this section too lol
« Last Edit: January 11, 2014, 12:05:11 PM by nathanisbored »

Offline mzxrules

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Re: Organizing things (OoT Site)
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2014, 12:15:47 AM »
Reorganized the categories. I feel that organizing things this way will be pretty future proof, save for the Miscellaneous section.

@Razor: I shortened Dungeon Strategies into just Dungeons, reason being that I like short category names. Also, I almost think the General Speed Tricks category should be done away with completely.
Quote from:  Leigh Rogers
Braid
This is art because the music is classical music, and the graphics are done with a pen. The story is something about a woman. I could not understand much of this to be honest, which makes it even more likely to be an art.

Offline nathanisbored

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Re: Organizing things (OoT Site)
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2014, 03:14:29 PM »
Reorganized the categories. I feel that organizing things this way will be pretty future proof, save for the Miscellaneous section.

@Razor: I shortened Dungeon Strategies into just Dungeons, reason being that I like short category names. Also, I almost think the General Speed Tricks category should be done away with completely.


I have to say that I also prefer Boss Strategies and Dungeon Strategies. Just calling it Dungeons makes it sound like it's just giving general info about the dungeon. But whatever, I don't really mind that much. I agree that General Speed Tricks should be removed.

Offline nathanisbored

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Re: Organizing things (OoT Site)
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2014, 03:37:40 PM »
Does anyone else think "Early Items" and "Skipping Items" should both be merged into a section just called "Items"? I guess this would defeat the purpose of the "Items and Powerups" page, but on the other hand most items probably deserve their own page anyway. Just a thought, but it's not too important right now anyway.

Offline Exodus122

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Re: Organizing things (OoT Site)
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2014, 04:23:52 PM »
Agreed nathan

Offline Jbop

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Re: Organizing things (OoT Site)
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2014, 04:38:22 PM »
I have to say that I also prefer Boss Strategies and Dungeon Strategies. Just calling it Dungeons makes it sound like it's just giving general info about the dungeon. But whatever, I don't really mind that much. I agree that General Speed Tricks should be removed.

I agree with this too.
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Because its OoT.