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I've been curious how 100% would be defined in this game. These seem like a given for any 100%:

-All items
-All heart pieces/heart containers
-All main wallet upgrades/gratitude crystals

Then these all seem like they could feasibly be part of the definition to me:

-All primary item upgrades
-All medals
-All empty bottles
-All goddess cubes/goddess cube chests
-All pouch slots
-Beedle wallet upgrades
-Hylian Shield

My personal idea of 100% includes all of those, but it's obviously up for debate. What do you guys think?

I also believe that the things you listed should be the 100% definition.

oh i forgot hylian shield. added to the first post.

I think:

-All 20 heart containers (via collecting all HP's and HC's)
-All B items with all upgrades applied
-Bomb bag, seed bag, quiver with max upgrades
-Largest wallet with the +900 upgrade
-All bottles
-Hylian Shield
-8 pouch slots

Maybe all medals but to me, they're only used to achieve to above things. They don't really allow Link to do/use anything new.

I strongly disagree with having to trigger and open all goddess cubes/chests. Some of them have 2 of the same medal, most of them are just rupees.

6 pouch slots? why 6? that seems arbitrary when there's a total of 8...

20 heart containers is kinda weird to me because of the two heart medals... if you require the two heart medals do you also require all the other medals? or if you do require the two heart medals, do you just have to collect them, or do you also have to equip them? like i said, it's kinda weird. the one that makes the most sense to me is you have to collect it but you don't necessarily have to equip it (which is part of all medals).

i disagree with needing bomb bag/seed bag/quiver. those items are disposable, there's an infinite number of them, you can sell them at the item check... it just doesn't fit for me.

I meant 8 pouches sry.

And by 20 heart containers I meant via HC and HP collecting only.

I see no reason at all not to buy and upgrade the seed bag, bomb bag, and quiver. They are upgradable and have always been in 100% runs in past Zelda's. Just because you can buy more than one, doesn't matter. You can have multiple of the same medal too. Sellability is not really relevent either imo.

I can dig why you'd want 1 of each medal, but all goddess cubes/chest gets a big thumbs down from me.

i disagree with it because they're disposable items. if we're going to require buying and upgrading those then we need to require buying and upgrading the wooden/iron/sacred shields too, and that just seems dumb to me.

it's different imo in other zelda games where they're limited, permanent collectibles. similarly, the reason i was thinking all medals is because they're limited.

The wooden, iron, and sacred shields are step-up items to the final Hylian Shield, so of course tehy are skipped.. just like the goron bracelet is skipped in OoT because there's a better final item that does the same thing.

The seed bag, bomb bag, and quiver do not lead to a better item. You buy them, upgrade them and they're are as good as they can be. They work exactly like past upgradable ammo-holders except that you can have more than one and you can sell them.

As for disposability, you can easily lose a tunic or shield in OoT after already getting them, but they're still required for 100%.

Final word: I'm happy with whatever definition that's decided as long as godess cubes/chests are not all required and that only 1 of each medal is needed.

Personally I mostly agree with Paraxade. Anything you can get an unlimited number of should not count (anything buyable at the bazaar, basically). That is the reason for not getting the other shields, not because they step-up into the Hylian Shield (they don't). I would say get all the medals too as they are a limited resource.

I do not agree with opening all the goddess chests. However we should hit all the cubes.

Someone should check if you can sell the Hylian Shield and then get it again from Lanayru. If so I would say it doesn't count either (though obviously we would want -a- shield for speed purposes).

I'd personally say that goddess cubes should be required in a 100% run.
Sure, some people hate activating them.
But getting all the cubes can be compared with getting all the skulltulas in OoT.
It'd just be stupid not to get them. They are a big part of the game.
Maybe not opening all the chests, but you should activate them in my opinion.

It'd also make routes and such more interesting, as we probably would end up finding tricks related to getting cubes faster, which I'm really looking forward too.

Heart container medals should also be required. I would never in my life accept a zelda file as 100% if two heart containers are missing. No matter what.

I am not to sure about collecting all medals though. Normally I'd say that it is required, since they are limited items that can't be sold to the bank, etc. which means that they are collectables. And I usually go by the rule that all collectables are required for a 100%.

What about dungeon maps? They are also limited items that can't be sold or disposed of. I myself don't think that it is needed in a 100% run but I wanted to mention it since it wasn't brought up yet.

That is actually a valid point.
You can skip about half of every dungeon by skipping the dungeon maps.
This is because in the first playthrough you "need" them to progress. They're actually helpful this time around.
I am not sure about adding them in 100% either. But sure, I'd actually say that we should get them, but I know that most people will be against this.
It is just that we skip so much of the dungeons by skipping the maps, and that just feels wrong to me.

However, most OoT players are used to skipping as much as possible, so I can understand if people do not want to collect maps and such.

Activating all cubes makes nooooo sense. We should only activate and open the chests that contain required items for 100%. If we decided to open them all, so much time would be spent just opening unneeded rupee chests, there's sooooo many rupees throughout the game in the overworld and in dungeons along the way to all destinations that we can get instead. We'll most likely be getting 50r from every boss fight when playing through boss battles for the heart piece and Hylian Shield alone (~650r total?).

I can agree on no ammo-carrying upgrades though, since the majority seems to agree with parax.

I still think 1 of each medal is the way to go. To me the game is giving you 2 routes to obtain the HC and rupee medal: If you have a lot of money you can buy them from beetle, if you want to go the more exploritory route you can find them in goddess chests. When I got both pairs of each finally, it felt redundant.

Absolutely no to maps IMO.

(hi, kinda new here, I wanted to register for some time but I didnt have anything to post :p)

I think one medal of each should be enough, but goddess cubes should all be activated, not necessarily open the goddess chests, just activate the damn cubes. Should not take a huge time since you visit every area where they are and you re visit them also. Unless some major skip glitch is found it's only a bit of time loss and more route planning, I think it would be more entertaining.

About maps, I see no point in getting all of them, it's just a help... It's like saying you'd need to finish the game with 5 bottles with healing potions ++ in them... Plus it could make a dungeon way longer if some glitch to skip a big chunk of it was to be found.

You do not spend much time opening the chests AT ALL, since you visit/revisit every single area in the game for different reasons.
A good route should make it so that opening all the chests only takes like 10 minutes, maybe even 20. But not more.
And I said activate cubes, I did not even mention opening them at all.

And like I said earlier, most people WILL be against maps.
I do not really see why. This is the 100% category, yet people try to keep it as low as possible, like as if it was a low 100% run. We'll skip most of most dungeons because of skipping the maps.
And I guess this is why people is against maps, because you have to do more parts of the dungeon, and people do not want to do that for some reason.
People want quiver upgrades, but they do not want to do the dungeons to get the maps, which is the most fun part of the game. I do not see the logic in that, at all.

Ohh well, Like I said before, it just seems like people try to remove as much as possible every time they come up with a 100% definition.
If we go by the current definition, we'll only do like 80% of the game tbh. No cubes, no cube chests, no shield upgrades, no maps.

Also, should we have to activate all the bird statues? I imagine most people will be against this aswell though.

If we're going to skip goddess cubes and stuff, then we should just keep it as low as possible, like:
All B Items (upgraded)
20 heart containers
9900 rupee wallet
5 bottles
8 pouch slots
Hylian Shield

I do not see a point in even considering getting the quiver/bags or 1 of each medal, if we do not even get the cubes. It is like the replacement for the heart piece searching. There is almost no heart pieces to be found in the game (on the ground) compared to earlier zelda games. Instead they've put a lot of cubes all over the game.

I don't see how activting the cubes has ANYTHING to do with 100%.

They're exactly like the cow in Link's house in OoT. We don't get the cow in 100% because it's not an item Link actually adds to his inventory, it's an overworld modification. Just like the goddess cubes/chests. Unless the 100% definition reqires you to OPEN all goddess chests, there's no reason to trigger all teh cubes. And I don't see the point in opening all teh chests.

We should prob do a poll for this. Figure out whether the majority wants ALL medals or 1 of each medal, and whether the goddess cubes/chests should be required. Also whether the ammo holders and their upgrades should be required.

Goddess cubes and chests are the same as sea charts and underwater chests in the WW. And the gratitude crystals are akin to skulltullas/poes.

Exactly, and we don't get all charts/sea chests in TWW. The gratitude crystals aren't really a debatable issue since they're all required for the max wallett.

The ammo holders are a temporary upgrade that most likely ends up in the bank. It won't be used. So it'll be just as useless as anything else.
The definition of 100% has always been questionable and will always be.
Getting all the cubes (including useless ones that gives rupees), is just like getting the last 50 golden skulltulas in OoT. It is completely useless, it is something you simply do because it feels like it is a part of 100%.
And skipping maps/compasses/boss keys are skipped simply because people didn't want to collect them, but in a true 100% (if 100% means getting everything), you would get them, no matter if you want to or not.
Everything is questionable, that is why we have this thread.

Getting the cubes is just as useless as many other things. And the cubes in this game is like I said earlier, the replacement for the heart piece searching. They've reduced the heart pieces by A LOT and put goddess cubes all over the game instead for those who likes the searching and puzzles which zelda really is all about. However, goddess cubes does not have a number in your pause screen, which for some reason makes it more useless than other items, when it really serves a bigger purpose than most required items.

So, 100% will always be broken. And right now we're deciding how broken it will be. And I'm fine with either requiring everything (except for opening chests), or require as little as possible. But just randomly throwing in what should be required and what shouldn't will just make the definition even more confusing and broken.

They give the same rewards, but you collect them in entirely different ways. The cube collecting is much more similar to skulltulas than gratitude crystals ever will be, since you get almost all crystals from side-quests, which normally gives heart pieces in most games, which makes gratitude crystals similar to heart pieces.

Confusing, isn't it.

___________________

And one more thing:
Goddess cube hunting would make 100% runs much more interesting. Especially when it comes to the routes, and maybe we'll find different tricks to reach cubes earlier, etc.
The 100% category just seems boring and not interesting at all at the moment. It'd be any% with the side-quests and a lot of time in the bazaar upgrading items, and a rare few heart pieces that are found in the overworld/dungeons.
Cubes would be what really makes 100% into its own interesting category, without it, it has nothing special to offer.

The cubes should not all be activated, period. ESPECIALLY if you're not going to open them all. The sea chart/treasure comparison is a perfect parrallel with the goddess cubes/chests. You activate them, they show you where treasure is, and you open them all in teh first playthrough at random just to aquire a few HP's and inventory items. We should treat it as a weeding-out process to obtain teh real 100%-required items.

That out of the way, I say: 1 of each medal. I'm on the fence about the ammo holders.. they still meet 100% definition to me. Remember, 100% in gaming started from Metroid and that percentage went by items and upgrades Samus obtained.

In metroid they didn't have hidden objects all over the game that you were supposed to find to get different rewards (goddess cubes). If there was, you'd probably have to collect them.
1 of each medal sounds stupid to me. either all medals, or none. if you have 2 apples and only pick one, it isn't 100%, it is 50%. I'm sure my math is correct. The medals are also completely useless. I've never ever used one (except for the 2 heart container medals).
And ammo holders is just another way of wasting time in the bazaar. Having to buy and upgrade them just to throw them away is way more annoying than finding the goddess cubes, period.

And from my last post:
What fun would 100% be (especially when it comes to watching) if the only differences from any% is:
play minigames
run around talking to NPCs to get gratitude points
hit a FEW of the goddess cubes
open up 1 extra chest in fire sanctuary (for a bottle)
spend extra time in the bazaar upgrading items for multiple minutes
and open up like 4-5 chests to get a few heart pieces (aswell as picking up a rare few on the ground. those will only add a few minutes though. You'd barely notice it.)

In my opinion, goddess cubes is the only single thing in the entire game that really would make 100% interesting, since everything else in 100% is just watching someone run around talking to NPCs and open like 5 extra chests in the entire game.

Hitting goddess cubes (especially to make a chest appear that you don't need and will not open) is not fun. Whether you think the goddess cubes are more fun to require or not is beside the point anyway, they aren't obtainable items that Link adds to his inventory or quest screen, or pouch. They're just switches that make chests appear.

SS does have a lack of mini-games that reward HP's and items but that doesn't mean we need to make up for that by adding bogus requirements to 100%.

If this was Metroid Prime, Goddess cubes would have been part of the 100% just like visor scans would be.

Another thing... All dowsing targets or no?

But in Metroid, you can't just buy unlimited Missile Tanks in a store; you collect them once, and then they're gone forever. It made sense to require the Biggest Bomb Bag in OoT because (disregarding RBA shenanigans) you could only get it once. And the MM 100% definition is based entirely around the items you don't lose when going back in time (i.e. the items you can only get once). The ammo upgrades in SS aren't permanent (you can put them in storage or even sell them), and they aren't unique (you can fill the Item Check entirely with Large Quivers if that floats your boat), so comparing them to OoT's ammo upgrades or to Metroid just doesn't make sense. Just because it's a Quiver doesn't mean it's anything like OoT's Quiver.

I can sway to the majority on ammo holders and all medals vs. 1 of each medal but I can't agree with the cubes, I think my reasoning is sound.

What's your opinion on the cubes darkeye?

Then do not add 1 of each medal and ammo holders.
They are just as bogus as anything else.
It is just stupid.

1 of each medal does not make any sense at all. Why would you ever only get 1. Either all, or none. That is the most logical thing to do.
And the ammo holders is just a time waster, it is a temporary upgrade you choose to equip that doesn't upgrade link permanently in any way.

I'd say either throw in as much as possible into the 100% category, or keep it to the lowest, without any stupid things at all.

I think we should unlock all dowsing targets. It is something you unlock permanently and it is on the UI even.
The same goes for bird statues (which some people will be against), it serves as a warp point in the game, and it is something you unlock. I do not see how these could be skipped in a 100%. And no shit can explain why it shouldn't be in the definition.

I think the Goddess Cubes are kind of dumb. It seems pointless to hit a cube that you're not even going to get treasure from anyways (though some unnecessary cubes might come in handy for buying expensive things from Beedle). It would be like spawning a treasure chest in OoT, and then not opening it. It just seems like a waste of time.


Adding arbitrary items to the definition seems like an SRL goal, not a rational and sensible criteria for which items to collect. No-OoB MM any% is way more fun than the standard any%, but it's just not a realistic category. If the 100% run is boring, then it's the game's fault, not the fault of the people who came up with the definition.

I really don't think any of the rupee goddess chests will come in handy. Unless the cube is in Link's direct path and its chest is on an island that has an item we need.

As for bird statues, I think whatever we decided with MM's owl statues applies here.

In the IRC they clearly told me NOT to compare with oot/mm definitions, because they said that a lot of stuff is questionable in those definitions aswell.

I just think bird statues should be collected it just seems logical.

And rupee chests should be totally useless if you play hero mode (which you most likely will do), since you just can sell your rare treasure for 300 rupees each, and it goes really fast.

Then I disagree with all bird statues, slows the game down for no gain whatsoever. They don't add to Link's inventory. ITEMS CLOUDMAX, WE'RE COLLECTING ALL ITEMS xP.

They don't add to links inventory, but it is something you unlock and can be used permanently.
It is like saying that warp songs in other games are useless. You could argue that this isn't the case since there is so many bird statues, but then again, how many there is doesn't matter. And what we personally think just slow down the game or what we fell does not matter, that is what you said to me earlier even.

This discussion is getting confusing..

The statues work just like in MM. If we decide on something different here, then we disagree with the MM 100% definition. Warp songs were on teh quest status screen and had fillable spots, statues are overworld items and the maps in MM and SS don't leave a statue spot for you to fill.

Well, what about golden skulltulas in OoT then ?

Like we said earlier, old definitions are broken.
There was apparently someone else who made up definitions after how he wanted them to be back then.
Skulltulas are questionable, and no one has a good answer for why it is required, except that the person who made the definition said that it should be like that.

GS's are required in OoT because they take up a space on the quest status screen alongside teh songs, medallions, etc.

This thread exploded. :/

@ metroid comparison -- the metroid games themselves tell you what 100% is. I don't think it's reasonable to be like "we should get all ammo upgrades here because we have to in metroid" since they work differently and the games themselves treat them with different levels of importance. IMO if we're getting ANY of the useless resellable shit then we should get all of it, but that is clearly stupid.

@ goddess cubes -- small note. the game actually does tell you on the pause menu how many there are left. view info for the cube dowser. I'm not sure if it also counts the chests though (they can be dowsed for too). Make of that what you will but they DO appear on the pause menu in some fashion.

@ dowsing options -- I would say get them. It's kinda dumb but there is a clear justification for it (they appear in your inventory).

@ maps/statues -- I would say go with the standard here. They are not all immediately viewable in your inventory at any point in the game (you have to be in the area). It kinda feels wrong not to get them since they're an important aspect of the game but at the same time I have a hard time justifying getting them. So I dunno, whatever the standard is imo.

Not requiring GSes in OoT would be dumb.

anyway - I don't know anything about the MM definition, but I know in TP portals are not part of the 100% definition, and I don't see how it's really any different from SS bird statues. the goddess cubes thing seems to be the main thing everyone is split on... I'd much rather see at the very least the cubes being required, and I think theres a point to be made for opening the chests since they appear on the map screen, but that same logic would require all bird statues, so eh.

and yeah - one of each medal makes little sense to me. if we're considering medals part of the 100% definition then we need to get all of them. if we aren't, we get none of them. though it seems to be generally agreed we should get the two life medals. I wanna say you have to equip them too because it doesnt feel like 100% without 20 hearts but it doesn't make too much sense objectively :P

i'd be a little annoyed with dowsing targets mainly because the rupee target is ridiculously out of the way and does basically nothing for you, while the rest are a relatively small deal because they're all right there, so they mean basically nothing to the run.

edit: I had no idea the game tells you how many cubes are left, huh. that seems to make a more solid case for requiring all cubes.

I agree with this, and I think it should apply to SS moreso than TWW (I don't agree with not getting all treasure charts since they're tracked in the menu)

I disagree with only getting 1 of each medal though, just because it makes sense to me to have all 20 hearts on display and you'd need both of the Life Medals, so why would you require both life metals but not the duplicates of the other medals, even if you aren't going to use them? I feel this way about the bottles too, even if we don't use them we're grabbing every duplicate of THAT item, so then why aren't we just collecting 1 bottle?

Goddess cubes are confusing to me, since it doesn't make sense to hit a cube and activate a chest that is going to sit there on the map and do nothing with it. So if we're on the ruling of having to collect all the cubes, then I'd also feel that opening all the chests would be required as well, as dumb as that is. I feel the same way about the dungeon maps too, since dungeon maps show which chests you haven't opened I'd feel it necessary to open those chests as well.

I actually agree with getting all the dowsing targets just so it would fill the slot, even if we don't ever use it..

I think upgrading items is really stupid, personally. I think if we have to include it, that it should just be used for items like the bug net, beetle, etc. B-button items.
Disagree with buying the satchel/quiver/bag for upgrading, that honestly feels to me exactly like buying all the shields to upgrade them, or buying options just to upgrade each one to the highest status, it's just stupid. But in the same sense they're linked to your B-button items so it seems weird that we wouldn't upgrade the ammo count as well as the item itself... :/ I just think upgrading is dumb.

Then there's Treasures and bugs, which I don't think has been asked about. It makes sense to me to collect at least 1 of each bug/treasure to fill that slot on your status screen. But hero mode carries that data over from normal mode, so most likely all of these slots would be filled when you start hero mode, so would we still require the person to collect 1 of each bug/treasure?

And saving at each bird statue blah blah fills map space blah. Just throwing stuff around.

Edit:
Well this changed my opinion on whether or not we should get all of the cubes, which now I think we should just based on that.

Double Edit:
Yeah I can't find it, I'm selecting the goddess cube dowsing on the status screen and it's not giving me any numbers, just what it does <_< is there a video showing the cube count or something? (I'm on a file that doesn't have them all collected, in fact there's one right in front of my face right now)

I don't have an incomplete file but I can make a vid of it saying there are none left if that helps anything?

edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWywVlLrCm4
dat quality, xsplit hates me

Ah ok, that's reasonable enough. I thought it would be an actual number counter, but that's good enough knowing "you got them all, you can stop now"

I actually noticed this only after I got them all, I assumed it would give a number counter like it does one of the other ones. (I think it was gratitude crystals?) But yeah either way it does keep track of whether you got them all or not.

Well, then it seems that most people agree that we should get the cubes now.
In the IRC when we talked about it yesterday, most people were against it because you couldn't keep track if you had all the cubes or not.
Now we actually have it in the pause menu.

If chests should be opened or not now is questionable and will probably end up being a decision made out of personal opinions and nothing more. But they do show a huge purple dot on every location on your map, which by some peoples logic would require them. But because they do not give you any useful rewards, they shouldn't be required.
I do not really want to open them, but to me it wouldn't matter if we had to open them, since it only would add like 10-20 minutes to a speedrun at most since we pass almost all the places after we've unlocked the chests.

And I'm still at either no medals (except for heart container ones), or all.
Statues doesn't really bother to me that much to be honest. It is just one of those small things that I want to have completed in my own personal 100% files. If it is part of the speedrunning definition doesn't really matter.
The same goes for rupee dowsing, which I do not even remember how you unlock. And if rupee dowsing isn't required, then heart dowsing shouldn't be either.

I don't mean to alarm you, but most people definitly haven't agreed on accepting cubes in. It seems like most people are against the cubes because they aren't collected and lead to useless chests that wouldn't get opened. With that said though, I do agree that all cubes should be unlocked since they are shown on the menu.

This is extremely arbitrary. 100% wouldn't require collecting all chests in dungeons, so why would the goddess cube chests need to be collected? It's adding length for the sake of extending an already huge category.

idk about medals w/e

Personal opinions. And we shouldn't compare them with the regular chests in dungeons, since they are very different in many ways.

I'm not saying that the should or shouldn't be opened, I'm just mentioning it.

Also, isn't the purpose of 100% to make a huge category where you do most of the stuff in the game?

Lets just put it this way:
I bring a friend home and tell him that I have 100% in a game.
We start up the game and he checks that map and asks "what are those purple dots?".
I'd answer, "it is chests you can unlock throughout the game, but I haven't opened them, because they do not contain anything useful".
Any person I know would instantly say that I do not have 100% in the game, because I avoid opening these special chests that are marked on the map, simply because I do not find the content useful.

So, from a casual gamers perspective, it would be a part of 100%, no doubt. And for my own personal file, it is a must for the file to be considered 100%.
But when it comes to the 100% definition, the rules will always be different.

And one last time: I am not saying that we should or shouldn't open them. I am just putting it out there so that people can think about it, because some people clearly doesn't. Some people just think "this is not fun and it takes a long time, and therefore we won't do it".

That's a vague way of defining it. 100% means to complete all significant goals. Things like walking on every pixel or entering every door are obviously excluded because they don't have an effect on the actual gameplay.
First of all, lets not let casual players decide on the requirements of a speedrun category. They really don't matter in this case. Secondly,  collecting the rupee chests without a need for them is literally pointless. It'd be like breaking every pot or reading every sign. In no other games has been collecting excess rupees been a requirement of 100% and there is little reason to start now. I know that previously the 100% categories were defined with somewhat questionable reasoning, but they all avoid redundancy. That's not a tradition that would be good to break here.

casual gamers don't have a centralized definition of this speedrun category. We're safe for now.

I don't want them to be included because they're pointless, not because of how fun it is.

I have a question regarding the goddess cubes in the pause menu.
When you've found all it says that there isn't any cubes left.
Was this done on a file where all chests were opened?

Because on a file that hasn't taken all cubes/chest it tells you that it allows you to dowse for the cubes AND chests, which it does.
Maybe it tells you that there stilla re chests left that hasn't been opened if you haven't opened all?
This would make a big difference in whether or not all the chests should be opened.
If it is mentioned in both the pause menu and on the map, I think we should open them. If not, then we don't.
Because if it turns out that it tells you that there still is chests left to be opened, it would be similar to how you get the last 50 golden skulltulas in OoT.
Both will give you the useless rewards of rupees, but we still get them because it is displayed within the status menu.

I do not see how anyone could avoid this fact. So someone who have a file with all cubes unlocked that still have chests that hasn't been opened yet should check this.

Yeah, all the chests were open. As I said in the original post mentioning the dowsing thing, I'm not sure if the tracker includes the chests or not. Someone should check this out for sure.

I'll test this on my hero mode file, gimme a bit
Note: hero mode giving you full skyward strike is unbelievably broken, you can grab so many of these from far away lol

I got a question to ask about that.

How many "levels" of skyward strike are there ? From what i've read there's only two (basic one you have through the first two thirds of normal mode, and advanced one you have in the end, and during whole hero mode), but i've seen on a video someone charging it instantly, while on my hero file I still have to wait a bit (like .2 second), is there a third level you unlock further in the hero mode ? Which would be instant and have even more range ? Cause the one I have still has limited range too.

Hero mode always have the longest and strongest skyward strike possible.
In hero mode you get instant skyward strike where you normally would get the improved skyward strike.

Okay that's what I thought, so there are 2 powers and 3 speeds to it.
You first have power 1 - speed 1, then power 2 - speed 2
And in hero mode you have power 2 - speed 2 then you unlock power 2 - speed 3 if I'm right :p

I was surprised to see TheOnly0 instant skyward strike in the end of his hero mode, as I haven't finished mine atm (I can only play on week ends as my Wii is at my parents' -.-), thanks for the info.

All B items and their upgrades
All medals
8 pouches
All HC's and HP's
5 bottles
Hylian Shield
9900 wallet
Dowsing slots full

Let's all just settle on that and be done with it :P.

PS: I did not know that you needed the two HC medals to have 20 HC's... I thought they'd be 2 extras, making 22 total. In that case all medals is ibviously the way to go.. and I've had all HP's all this time thinking I had 8 more to find lol.

I just collected all the Cubes, and it doesn't update what it says at all. Collecting the chests..

One of my wishlists for this game was that they include a % counter. Why Nintendo, why

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Also, just finished testing. That message only comes up *after* you open all the chests as well.
I'm convinced that We should grab all the chests too. The one thing I did notice though is they never put a rupee chest 'by itself' meaning that with islands that only have 1 chest, it's usually a medal or a heart piece. The ones with multiple will have a medal/hp with like, a rupee chest or one that has a satchel/quiver/bomb bag, so it's not like it would add on that much time if we do. That's another thing too, since you grab those items from the chests, wemightaswellupgradethemtoosincetheycorrespondwithb-buttons hehe

You don't level all 150 pokemon to 100 in a 100%, so I say either get 8 fully upgraded version of each Arrow/Bomb/Seed bag, or don't require upgrading them at all.

QFT

*throws in cents*

Okay, I knew when I was playing this game that 100% was gonna be hard to define. I've been thinking about this for a while now, and I think I have a semi-decent idea.

With hero mode, you're gonna have the bug/treasure counts already, so I think those should not be required, unless you set an arbitrary number to collect anyway.

All B items should be required, but I think the upgrades should come down to whether or not it's gonna be beneficial to the run. Upgrading the bug minion makes sense speedrun-wise, but it doesn't make much sense to upgrade the bug net, especially if bugs aren't required. But in the same sense, one could argue that if you upgrade one, you must upgrade the others.

I think that the goddess chests that aren't rupees should be required, if they are required at all. The rupee chests seem really dumb to require, especially if it happens that you don't have room in your wallet when it comes time to collect it, because then Fi's gonna be all "yo, you can't collect this, you're wallet is full". Bottles and medals and stuff like that in the chests seem more likely to be required. So unless you can account for wallet fullness, which would be really hard, then I say just go for the important stuff. Pouch items are somewhat hard to define, as you can't carry absolutely everything with you, though. But if medals are required, just go for the medal chests.


I think Hylian shield should be required, but no other shield. My reasoning for that is because it's the best shield, and it requires no upgrades (from what I remember). Plus, you'll be there anyway for that stupid heart piece.

I don't think you should upgrade the arrow/seed/bomb at all. They take up space in your pouch, and aren't permanently attached to that item, like in OOT where they were. If it's not a permanent upgrade, then it shouldn't be required. I never needed them in my game, and the bomb system is incredibly broken and awesome in this game, so I don't see having the upgrades with us all that important. This also brings up the point about the heart medals--it's not permanent, so why require it? I don't see any point in the pouch items really.

Also an interesting point is about that bug sidequest with beedle. You get that half-price coupon from him. Should that be required?

Ehh, we'll have to do all side-quests to get the 9000 rupee wallet / all gratitude crystals, so ofc we'll have to get the coupon.

Not sure you get the heart dowsing on hero mode (cause there's no hearts), even with the two heart medals fi doesn't activate it...

Another thing too, I think the hero mode used for a 100% should be clean, i.e. no bugs and no "treasures" from a previous save.. That would be a bit lame else, just selling few treasures to get max rupees and spend 10 minutes at workshop to just upgrade all items and that's it..
But well, this means you'll get the treasure get cutscene at every segment (derp this is a lizard tail it's a tail from a lizard and it's spiky houuu)

Any carry-overs like that seem like they would be classified as New Game+ according to SDA's standards, which sounds fine: defining a separate category if anyone cares, but allowing it to be kept out of other runs.

You can get heart dowsing on hero mode.

I say that since the time saved between NG+ over Normal is so minimal when considering that this will probably end up being a 5-7 hour run, we should just not have normal and NG+ categories, similar to how no one gives a damn about MQ any%

So, this is about where I think things should be at...

• Timing starts as soon as you gain control of Link, to accommodate the possibility that Normal somehow ends up being the faster game.
• Hero Mode starts off with 0 bugs / treasures (easy to set up)
• All dowsing targets must be enabled
• At least one of each bug/treasure must be obtained
• All Goddess Chests must be opened
• All items that can't be sold at the item check (not counting potions) must be obtained
• Every item that must be obtained is upgraded to their maximum power
• Must finish the game with 20 Heart containers?
• The largest wallet (9900 rupees) must be obtained

Why finish the game with 20 hearts ? I guess it's for aesthetic but carrying 2 life medals is just a pain in the ass :< Better have 18 without medals and carry useful stuff.

Well now as I think of it, if you're talking about a segmented run (I hardly imagine someone doing a single segment 100% run, this ain't super mario 64 :D ), there's not really any item useful cause medals are just bonuses that slightly help, so why not finish with 20 hearts.

Agreed on the rest too.

I completely disagree with not allowing Hero Mode to start with bugs and treasure. It's built into the game and there's no reason to disallow taking advantage of it. Let's ban using skyward strikes too since that carries over into hero mode. In terms of the "this just means you'll sell treasure/bugs over and over for rupees" - that seems like a big waste of time to me, considering you'd have to go out of your way for it and we're going to be picking up plenty of rupees with goddess chests if those are going to be part of the definition, plus probably a ton of other things from sidequests and other stuff (like the 20 rupees you get for cleaning Pipit's house and the 600 rupees you get from Batreaux, off the top of my head).

mzx's list is missing the Hylian Shield (unless that's covered under "all items that can't be sold at the item check"? i don't remember if you can sell it) and the extra pouch spaces - are we agreed on getting all four extra spaces?

Wow big thread.

I agree with Paraxade, we should take advantage of being allowed treasure and bugs when the game starts. But perhaps we can throw a limit on it and say we can only start with the treasures (and bugs?) that are used to upgrade items required for 100% completion. But it doesn't matter, because like he said, you get so many rupees from the requirements we've established so far. Btw you get 900 total from Batreaux, once he gives you a gold rupee, then later he gives you twice at once.

That'd be arbitrary. We should be able to start with as much treasure and bugs as we want.

I'd say skipping cutscenes are pretty awesome.

I actually didn't consider selling treasures, I was thinking more in terms of creating the 100% category in a way that would make NG+ close enough to a normal game so that they wouldn't be separate categories. That, and I think Chrono Trigger's NG+ category is dumb as shit.


I just guessed that the Hylian Shield can't be sold. If it is, I think it still deserves to be obtained. Extra pouches kind of falls under "all items that can't be sold at the item check", and most are obtained through goddess chests anyhow.

What does everyone else feel about ending with 20 hearts?

IMO either way is fine as long as you get the medals, leave it up to personal preference. That said it would be easier to verify if 20 hearts are on show.

Also agreeing with Parax here, we should just be able to start with however many bugs/treasures we want in NG+. No matter how many arbitrary modifications you make to NG+ they are still just that, arbitrary. Also I don't know how I feel about them being a part of the 100% definition, the main/only justification for that is they have icons on the pause menu correct?

Actually you only get 1 adventure pouch from goddess cubes (your very first goddess cube)

you buy the other 3 from beedle

I was thinking about how hylian shield is gonna be a bitch to get.
You need to beat 9 bosses to get it (or 10 ? Can't remember), but these bosses are random, so for the best time you'd need to avoid the 2 (3 ?) slowest bosses in the boss rush, that's a lot of retries ;o

I think the slowest are horde, imprisoned 2 and.. imprisoned 3.

Good luck on that segment for anybody planning to 100% SS :p

The imprisoned are very fast compared to some bosses like tentalus which takes a long time no matter what.
all imprisoned can be done in about 1 minute.

I've never done horde battle in time trial so I have no idea about that one though.

And you have to defeat 8 bosses in a row.

Well I just looked the boss battles time trials threads to determine which were longer. Still I think the imprisoned are kinda long, at least 2 and 3 cause you have to be very safe to hit his feet (if you try landing on its head he will make you fall.. I guess ? I tried many times and I always falled.), while other boss battles with good strats can be done really quick (see time trials thread).

Still with 8/12 battles, the odds are against you if you want to make a really good time on that, and segmented is supposed to be optimal/near perfect.. :/

EDIT : my bad, didn't read well the times, so yeah ~2 mn for tentalus and koloktos, and that's ingame timer (which doesn't count jumping into water to make boss get out of water faster for example), so yeah you'd want to avoid these two, and horde, and I think imprisoned 2 which is the longest of the three.
I think the chances are 1 in 495 to avoid these 4 battles.

Demise is always last so you aren't going to fight him either way. That means there's only three fights you would need to avoid, and I think Horde has a relatively small chance of coming up early anyway (I never had it come up when I was trying to get the hylian shield on my Hero playthrough).

I didn't know for demise, that's 8 fights out of 11, that's 1 in 165, but I guess it can never be perfect so the runner would seek optimum time over optimum runs, looking for the perfect bosses (ie avoiding the three slowest) sounds suicidal, and then you need a goddamn good time, so anyways let's forget about that matter it's rather pointless :p

I had horde rather early though, I think 6th fight, I even died on it (horde with one heart ? Challenge accepted... reach third barrier, oh shit a bomb blew up your face) :p I think the random in it is fine, you have the same chances of getting any boss. Good luck for a 100% runner, boss rush in hero mode is hard as shit (well to me.. due to lame controls, link swinging sword when you want to shield bash, and whatnot :/ )

edit : actually you can get demise first, if you're pro at it you can get a pretty decent time (someone got a 30s strat on the time trial thread), it would be good to start with too :p

How sure are we that the boss battles are actually fully randomised? Aside from some ghirahim/imprisoned oddities I've never had boss battles go out of order in boss rush. For me the repeat bosses always appear in the same spots relative to other bosses but sometimes it'll for example give me the last ghirahim first, or all 3 imprisoneds in a row, or something like that. But I will always get a ghirahim first, then scaldera, etc, and always in the right spots assuming they didn't clump. Derp post above proves they are randomised. But I'm assuming the randomiser at least heavily favours the natural order.

I dunno I probably haven't played as many full rushes as you guys but it didn't look all that random in my experience.

Anyway it's kinda dumb that we'd have to fight all the bosses again for Hylian Shield, I'm gonna actually check to make sure it's not sellable. (Edit: It's not.)

Hmm, I usually get one of the Ghirahim's first as well. I've done boss rush quite a bit on a non-hero mode file, and it seems more pseudo-randomized like EA said before he edited his post. Generally Koloktos or Tentalus are the last boss for me, and it seemed to go in an order related to difficulty. But every now and again it will be seemingly completely random. Perhaps some research should be done on this.

Well someone should try starting (on a hero mode) with boss X and see what bosses are after it, then repeat and see if it's pseudo random.

I often had tentalus in my first bosses (and I always start with ghirahim 1), also imprisoned 3. Never had koloktos though.. So yeah, it must be pseudo random...

Maybe they use a different randomiser for Hero and Normal modes?
I will laugh though if the seed is simply the first boss you pick. Painfully simple method of randomising.

I don't think the seed is ENTIRELY the first boss you pick, because I usually pick Imprisoned 3 as the first fight, since it's really the only one that will cause me to fail, if I'm wrong when I choose to wait for Groose instead of skydiving for phase 2. However, I do think it may have some effect on which bosses come after.

To make thing very simple we can say that 100% is everything of upgrades and tasks. In some game, maybe this one, it may be inconveniently long and boring. So it may be hard to make fully  completion of some games suitable in a speed run format. People who think a clearly defined draft for 100% run sounds boring doesn't need to do such a run, nor watch such a run of considerable longevity.

Noob here, so please forgive if I hit any nerves, just figured I'd throw in a few cents into the fairy fountain


I agree with 0 bugs/treasures. Kind of a cheap shortcut to start a "100%" already having enough treasures from the previous save to upgrade everything. Although running through an area specifically to grind them out is boring, I think it might be kind of neat to see if & how collecting them can be integrated into the main run itself (e.g. grabbing a few tumbleweeds while running through the desert to do the things there). Fastest hero time without having to collect treasures would be significantly shorter and not quite representative of the time in which a 100% run could be done (who knows how much time was spent grinding treasures before saving to hero mode?). If anything, starting hero mode with enough treasures would be another category, since it could be way shorter.

Also concur with not requiring the buyable shields/ammo upgrades. I never considered Medigoron's Sword as part of 100% in OoT when Biggoron's Sword is superior, so I think the only shield upgrade needed is to the Hylian shield. I don't see why you should waste treasures on upgrading inferior shields or ammo capacity. Those things are only for people like me who aren't pro at the game and keep missing the target and breaking their shield. Like potions.

Something I just thought of for the Hylian shield boss battle - if your pouch is full it gets sent to item check. Does "having" it mean that you have it ON you, or is leaving it in item check fine? Probably a negligible difference since you go back to the item check frequently anyway (to talk to your darling :P).

The only thing I don't agree with in this list: Dowsing targets are of dubious value. Sometimes the game doesn't even give you all of them (I never got the one for the gratitude crystals, don't know why, but had to find them myself).

0 bugs/treasures is a bad move since 100% in hero mode is already a new game+ type of save.

if you want to do 100% and start with 0 bugs/treasures, do it in normal mode.

The only advantage of a hero mode with no bugs or treasures is the cutscene skipping and the quicker skyward strike... The cutscene skipping is mostly why the game is being speed ran in hero mode I guess, so that only leaves a minor difference.

I dunno why you're talking about hero mode... That would be a completely different category wouldn't it? Fresh file: 0% -> 100%. Hero mode: Exploit it as much as possible and go from X% -> 100%. Possible separate category would be Hero mode low% -> 100%. This would also accomodate for the "control of link" timing thing which I don't like for some reason.

Collecting one of each for the "collection" screen unlocks a picture and some information. Kind of like scanning in metroid prime if you ask me, so I think that would be a requirement. Saying "they're just icons" is like saying additional bottles or stone of agony in OoT are redundant because they don't add to gameplay (a new bottle doesn't add anything other than an additional slot, just like the pouches and SoA require hardware modification or isn't available on all versions) and they're "just icons".

Cubes... Nintendo made it a challenge to find them and that should be motivation enough for 100%. At the very least, the routes for activating them should be interesting enough to watch (which is what we're going after?). But opening all the chests would just be pointless and tedious and as an analogy, after collecting 100 skulltulas you're not required to collect rupees from the father, right? And the icons are just that: just icons on the map screen! Map screen =/= inventory.

I think unlocking all the save points should be a requirement because you gain the ability to warp to different zones, sort of how Link gains abilities from the wolf in TP if you ask me.

Gaining 4 adventure pouches should also be a requirement simply because of the menu system. But when it comes to bomb upgrades and stuff... I'm like Ani here. One fully upgraded of all or none at all, but I slightly favour the first one just because it seems right (for historical reasons :p). But only hylian shield because it's "the best".

Medals are like potions only that you can use them whenever you like for no additional cost. But Lon Lon Milk in MM isn't part of 100% is it? So I vote no.




So here's a defining moment: All icons which would mean you have to do everything possible about any icons in the inventory screen including the map screen which would mean all dungeon maps, chests etc in the game. Or ignore the map screen since they're on different buttons which means skipping maps and chests (including stone chests). HOWEVER; warps is an intrinsic unavoidable feature of the game and therefore warps should still be required even if you ignore the map screen.

Lets say we choose "only all icons in the inventory". Then we have to define if only static icons or are you required to have all of the icons in your inventory at some point. Technically that would require 0-99 or 999 or however many things you can collect, including different colours (green for full) but I guess we can ignore that. Either way, is it agreed upon that if all, then only the maximum/best would be required?


Someone needs to put the hammer down on some of these things and start defining...

But TimpZ, there is difference between Skulltulas (On which note, I believe it was mentioned to not compare to other games because dtuff) and the Goddess Chests. Outside the map, if you don't have them all, the game will tell you so, IIRC, via your inventory.

Indeed. As mentioned earlier, checking the Goddess Cube Dowsing option only gives the completion message after not only activating the chests, but opening them.

I was not aware of that (I havn't actually completed the game yet). But apparently it's a dowsing target you can obtain and if we're going to obtain all those + clearing them then I don't really see why not collecting all of them  instead of only the interesting ones wouldn't be part of 100%. It is 100% for a reason...

But we have to compare with something. Otherwise it'd be like describing quantum mechanics without classical physics models. I.e. almost impossible...

Very nice metaphor or whatever. Even though quantum breaks or bends rules of conventional physics, it's a separate set of rules. But it's all physics.
I still vouch for all cubes and chests. And idk all of tww rules, but I don't really like comparisons between the two. I'll do one 100% run after we settle this all.

Oh god GeneralLight, you have some mighty high standards...

That'd be a fun speedrun to watch  ::)

1.)At least one of every shield, fully upgraded.
2.)All B items, fully upgraded
3.)Maximum Dowsing Targets (exception: Sidequest Targets like Unidentified Plant etc)
4.)At least one bomb bag, quiver, and seed bag fully upgraded.
5.)Every Medal. Even the duplicate ones. *
6.)Every Goddess Cube Treasure opened (you get the Confirmation Screen)*
7.)Have/Had at least one of every insect and treasure. (This turns the icon silhouettes into full-color pictures)
8.)Every sidequest finished.*
9.)Every Rupee bag upgrade (Beedle's bags and Batreaux's "over 9000 bag")*
10.)All Gratitude Crystals*
11.)All bottles (put one of each potion in each bottle, then fully upgrade it)*
12.)All Pieces of Heart/Heart Containers
13.)All Adventure Pouches
 *some steps may lead to or require the completion of another.

Should Hero Mode be optional?
If we do it, it makes step 7 easier. And 1, 2, 8, 11, and 12 become somewhat easier in that respect. But the entirety of the game just LONGER.
If we don't, that shaves a lot of time off our shoulders.

Also, when did I ever become part of the ZSR clique?  ???

I think we should keep this relatively simple:

- All hearts
- All items & Upgrades: Bottles, Shields, Medals, Wallets, Adventure Pouches, etc.
- All Goddess Cubes & Chests
- And--duh--all dungeons completed*

*Not 100%, just the dungeon item, boss beaten, and heart container obtained. This should be pretty well covered by requiring all items and all hearts.

I don't see why we need to make Skyward Sword 100% so much bigger and "requirement-heavy" than every other 100% that has come before it.

Wow this is taking forever to be resolved. Obviously not everyone will ever agree.

Why is anyone talking about normal mode? Do you honestly want to watch over 2 hours of cutscenes? Theoretically, I guess if you want an uncontested world record...

Bugs/treasues? NG+? Seriously? Hero mode is just different. Do you want to not use skyward strike or not skip cutscenes? Use what you have, there's no reason to limit yourself, especially when talking about 100%.
Agreed.

Basically 100% should be like in other games. Everything finite that can be in your inventory screen:

• All dowsing targets
• 8 adventure slots
• All B-Items
• All Goddess Chests must be opened
• All medals
• Hylian Shield
• All bottles
• 9900 wallet
• All Heart pieces/containers
• Obviously, beat the game

If you require things not in the inventory, you open a whole can of stupid worms. Talk to everyone, watch every cutscene, get every Fi text (including hints and advice), open every chest, land at every statue, etc. Put it this way, 100% in Metroid does not include scans, only that you've obtained every significant item.

FYI, when you are in the Sky, the dowsing for Goddess Cubes is replaced with Goddess Chests.

For ammo/shield/potion upgrades, I'd go with no. It's not that they are boring to get, it's just extremely arbitrary. It's like requiring to get every bug or every rupee. If you can get an unlimited number of something, there's no reason to require it. As it has been stated over and over; it's all or nothing. For B-Items upgrades, I'm not so sure. Still seems arbitrary to upgrade them, but those are finite, so I'd go either way but leaning towards upgrading.

As for timing, I'd prefer to start from file start. It's silly to start when you gain control for the reason to make it the same as normal mode. If you do that, you might as well not count any cutscenes. Enjoy timing that >_>. Something that has come up is ending time. Should the time end when you land the final blow on Demise (Like in boss rush) or should it be the last point of significant input (when you move the wiimote to start the final blow). I know it's like a 2 second difference, but someone had asked me about it. I prefer when the blow actually lands, not when you do the input.

I think technically timing should end on final input, because it is the final manipulation by the player (and consistent with other games). However, it's so little time out of such a long category, it probably won't even matter. You can stop it later, then subtract your ~2 seconds after.

Guys, while you have been arguing about the definition of 100% A record has already been broken 3 times. Indykenobi currently has the 100% WR using his own definition. This is what he thinks 100% is:



Well, there isn't one currently agreed upon. The definition I used for my 100% RTA includes the following:
- All Heart Pieces
- All Goddess Cubes and Chests
- All Gratitude Crystals
- All Medals
- All Bottles
- All Pouch/Wallet upgrades
- All B-items, fully upgraded
- All dowsing options
- Hylian Shield

Things I didn't get:
- Shield/ammo/potion upgrades
- Dungeon maps
- Non-goddess chests
- Bird statues

Any/all of these could be debated, but I wanted to start working, and this seemed like the place to start.



I agree with him on his "Didn't Get" list. Shields Can be bought at an infinite quantity, so it's really doesn't matter whether or not you get the upgrades for them, and so are ammo and potions. Dungeon maps are not necessary for beating the game, you can bypass many chests because they contain rupees and the Bird Statues are just Save points and landmarks. The only thing up for debate is Shield/ammo/potion upgrades, but like I said, you can purchase them at an infinite quantity, so you can get an infinite amount of those upgrades.  And by infinite, I meant how much space is available in the Item Check Girl place...

Note: He also didn't get bugs and treasures.

If you want a true to the bone definition of 100%, then you have to play the game on normal mode. Which would take hours more then his original run. It wouldn't be considered a speedrun (but then again, it would. speedrunception). I may consider doing one under Indykenobi's definition.

In my opinion you should get the upgrades for the 3 shields, the bomb bag, the slingshot seed bag and the quiver at least once.

The main reason I decided not to do upgrades for shields/ammo/potions is because they aren't limited items, as Testrunner and Blackrazgriz have noted.  If you're going to upgrade the shields, why shouldn't you get one of each type of wooden shield (wooden, banded, braced)?  That seems silly, especially since the Hylian Shield obsoletes all of them.  I could see a better argument for the ammo upgrades, but even still, why not get one of each type of ammo container?  It's not limited.

I'm actually more curious lately about whether dungeon maps should be included in the definition.  It may be true that they aren't necessary to beat the game, but neither are gratitude crystals or goddess cubes.  I'd prefer not to get them, and there's precedent for skipping them as I believe OoT 100% does.  So that's why they're not in the route.

And yes, I didn't get bugs or treasures; since I play in Hero Mode, it seemed silly to not take advantage of having treasures and bugs carry over.  Doing this in Normal Mode, you'd have to collect enough treasures on the way to do whatever upgrading you decide are necessary, plus the 2 hours of cutscenes, so I'm not sure how that's a truer 100% definition than the similar thing in Hero Mode.

Some treasures and bugs are not necessary but they have a fixed spot in the inventory, so they should all be gotten at least once. Like in OoT the magic beans could be skipped, but they have a fixed spot on the inventory.

In OoT, there is a limited number of beans, so you have to get all of them. In Skywards Sword, there is an infinite number of treasures.

My stand is like Indy's, if you really think you should collect treasures, then play normal mode. It's like playing NG+, but your character has to be level 1 and you can't use any old items.

For dungeon maps, I'll just follow MM which only required permanent items. So you don't need dungeon maps, compasses, and BKs. I know there's a little contention here for OoT...

You don't need lower tiers of items, since other games follow the same philosophy.

Still unsure about the goddess cubes/chests, because they are not requires in TWW (maps/chests). But I'll agree with either decision, but personally, I support opening them.

Btw, it's funny that the only people who are disagreeing with the current definition are people who are not running the game. :P

Why are we arguing over this again? It seems like its just people who don't agree with the definition want to get it changed. It had seemed to have calmed down and almost have a perfect agreement. The best way to reach an agreement is to do a 100% run and see if it feels long enough. If you want to try collecting all the treasures, upgrading all items, etc, be my guest. But please do remember that even if you think that's what 100% SHOULD be, that may not be what the 100% run is. There is a reason we have a 100% definition. It doesn't mean doing everything possible in the game. Like TestRunner said, most people arguing aren't running. I'm not running SS anymore. But I have something to make even more arguments. In TWW, we collect all charts but not chests, even though you can see the count of chests collected on the map screen. But I don't think the map screen is accessible in the Ganon fight. So even though you can't see all the map count at the end, they are required. Gnaw on that bone.


Well, if you want a normal mode 100% on SDA, I believe you could watch all the cutscenes first so you have a complete skip.dat or w/e. I'm just thinking to the CBFD run where they skip all the cutscenes because they've already been watched.